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TheCaliforniaOp's Replies
https://moviechat.org/tt0054135/Oceans-Eleven/58c707424e1cf308b9383064/Clem-Harvey?reply=60e34318b452fc6236fd2c43
I believe it was to portray him visually as The Golden Boy, Golden Lad; that archetype.
Actually…that’s a fascinating scene.
There’s Jackie Brown—outward composed, inwardly she’s a human tuning fork, searching for any off note that makes this huge risk unplayable.
Sheronda—I always felt she was fleeing from something. Maybe she came from an abusive situation that included isolation and no socialization. So, yes, she is a slave, all through this movie.
I never saw the part that established her as an addict. Sometimes story continuity gets tossed and no one can stop it. Idk.
And then…there’s Simone.
Simone started doing what Jackie’s aiming to do back when Simone was Sheronda’s age.
See an opportunity; take it, or else.
Jackie is so bloody smart to have Mac there, or Max is such a courtly ‘knight’ to possibly suggest the
happenstance of being noticed, actually flagged down by Jackie in the Food Court. A brief exchange; then they both go their separate ways.
Either way, he watches over her and watches for watchers; that’s how Jackie shocks Ordell with knowing about Simone; that’s how she feeds enough info to Nicolette.
It’s smart to establish that Max goes to the movies there, noticeably. It’s smart to establish that “are you ignoring me” moment. It’s brilliant that
Ordell sees the whole ‘meetcute’ upfront. So reluctantly, all his instincts and experience buzzing, he’s going to let THIS coincidence
‘not count’.
What takes my breath away is that Jackie tells everyone upfront what’s going to happen, in every way. Sll the male characters except Max are alternately dismayed and flattered; from then on, their own egos are doing most of the heavy lifting Jackie’s misdirection plan needs.
“She wouldn’t dare pull that right in front of me!”
They say an honest man (person) can’t be connected. Few of us are honest with our SELVES.
That’s what makes me cry watching Jackie as she’s driving in the final scene. She’s the only one who’s unflinchingly self-honest; so she’s crying and inwards flinching at the end.
I believe they were in love with each other, and then they showed that love in the ending by appearing to disregard its existence.
They have to do that or the whole thing was for nothing. The ATF guy KNOWS he missed something and that’s one cop character not to make a fool of; at least, that’s the way he would interpret their actions. This is where his character failings can hurt others around him. He is his own personal Sun…not the ATF.
If he gets through to Mr.Walker and gets him to talk, hoooo, not good. She’s got to flee. Max Cherry HAS TO STAY.
So when Jackie does something like using Ordell’s car, she’s doing it for effect. She sees that Max is a little repulsed, and she responds with false brightness, because she needs him to be safe. That means pulling away from her just long enough not to come with her.
Honestly, once someone is dead, if there’s no heir, I’d rather see stuff not wasted.
But Ordell’s car in the story is more of a plot point. Tiny one, but still…
As they part, his blurred screen, her drive to…LAX? they’re hurting in the middle of their money.
That’s my favorite scene, too!
Now that’s a cool bar/lounge/restaurant. It’s gone now, but I love that they chose The Cockatoo Inn.
Welll…remember Ordell IS listening to The Tennessee Stud by Johnny Cash, while waiting for Jackie Brown to get home.
Ordell is a fascinating character, isn’t he? He’s all about thinking ahead and he remembers far back.
It’s what’s right in front of him that’s not easy.
I know what that’s like.
When the Delfonics song starts on the speakers, as they both listen, that’s a poignant moment.
Both men are recalling past good days that were “wasted in the present days” and then while Max Cherry gets ready for whatever might happen, Ordell Robbie finally adds up what’s happened.
He pulls to a stop in front of the Bail Bonds and tries to manipulate his future again as much as possible; but he’s pretty aware of what is about to happen although he’s still surprised at the direction it comes from.
Now I’m feeling defeated. ;)
Simone said “enough of this, I know when it’s time to exit stage right.”
Not only was her timing correct (for her purposes) but she helped Jackie and Max fine tune the big handoff, just by doing her thing.
I thought the same thing.
But this was before everyone accessed the Internet so easily.
People that were paid in cash/lived a crime lifestyle using cash —under the radar—wanted to see that cash.
That Delfonics song makes Ordell so sad; it pushes him further off-balance; he’s not a nice guy, not at all, but he’s lost already, walking into Cherry’s office.
Plus…he WAS inspired to quit, the night he watched Jackie Brown walk to his car and then went back to the sordid everyday catching bail jumpers.
He caught sight of a different life and the person he wants to spend that life with; but ironically, because he loves her, he has to stay there doing the same old thing.
Nicolette is one suspicious thought away from going back over the whole sequence of events. Cherry has to stick around and sacrifice happiness for love.
Not to mention that when enough power/money/right to inherit was at stake: It’s not hard to imagine a little baby swapping going on.
Or: “I followed my husband on this Crusade, but we decided I should come back and give birth here at the ancestral seat. Yes, that ocean air certainly works miracles!”
People do what they do. If only it was always for the absolute best reason, and ut worked out that way…
I think the chauffeur was a ‘natural’ relative. What Maria saw as a plus (looking alike) would have been the final humiliation for the Count, because probably everyone in the area knows everything about everybody.
So the Count may have shot them both BEFORE she could become pregnant.
Considering that the Count’s male ancestors may have helped themselves to the local women and women in service at the estate for generations, yes, he is out of touch.
He has a chance to make things right in more ways than one. Not for him! Marital aids? Not for him!
Do we absolutely know for sure his sister is infertile, or is the title supposed to go through the male line anyway? Not for her!
Yeesh
“Maria was no virgin…she’d been around the block.”
But I think that’s why she was picky. I think she probably had had to prostitute herself for survival here and there up until a few years before the three guys see in her In Spain. That’s why she flees. Not that again.
Remember the dance in the gypsy camp? She entices and invites, but don’t touch. She throws the gambling money to the guy just because, money is needed and she sees it to throw.
Now in Beverly Hills, she DOES go and spend the night with the guitarist we hear. We see her shoes later.
But on the yacht, she refused the Eyebrow Millionaire and clutched her robe to herself when she saw all the guys leering at her; then she turns the moment around and owns it. That’s a hard thing to pull off.
I think she re-virginizes herself for the Count, who overheard that frustrated tirade at the Casino, saw that chaste toss of the money; he draws his own conclusions, with fatal results.
The one jarring note for me was how unreal most movies had been under The Hays Code and then suddenly when she meets Crew (Bogart)while shopping, she tells him of the Count’s gentlemanly behavior for a whole 6 weeks and he’s shocked! Shocked, I tell you!
It’s an odd disconnect between the way the movies usually discussed premarital desire or sex outside of marriage, and while there’s certainly some realism there, the moment is more of a sledgehammer of foreshadowing, just in case we didn’t get all the anguished but dignified hints in the brother-sister conversations.
Oh well.
I noticed that the chauffeur/valet/whatever-he-was sure looked like a ‘natural’ relation to the Count. I think the actor playing the character was putting that across.
Poor Maria didn’t realize all the implications; she just saw someone with the correct appearance to pull off an heir; I always wondered if another reason the Count shot them both was for “Oh no, you don’t scheme your way onto the right side of the blanket!”
Considering that most female servants didn’t have a choice to say “No”, this is where the Count loses sympathy points. He could have had all that wealth and security go on and stay in the family, after all.
He was all prepared to go off into the sunset. But without telling his wife, he was more like a Pharaoh or a Rajah: “You die with me!”
I couldn’t help noticing that the chauffeur really really REALLY looked like a ‘natural’ relation of the Count; maybe his father had an affair with someone of the household staff, or in the town; maybe the connection went back further.
But they looked similar enough that this came to me immediately.
So while Maria thinks it’s all going to work out, I don’t think this guy is ever going to go away; maybe his mother wasn’t willing, what a surprise/sarcasm
It’s too bad that they couldn’t have tightened up the editing in other ways and then somehow…the Count shoots Maria, because unfortunately, this is the way the story has to go at the time, but then we get the guy who really was just waiting for a chance to finally grab at what he considered his birthright…foiled in the end.
In a perfect movie, the guy would be shot, Maria would have seconds to successfully save herself and make the Count suddenly sane. The funeral goes on, the sister “adopts” a little boy, and Maria and the Count live happily ever after somewhere else where marital aids have been discovered.
The adopted baby is vaccinated against measles and mumps.
The family motto is changed to: Be prepared!
I always think “after” a movie, too!
From the look on her face when she saw Bud again, and the look on his face, there’s a lot of unresolved issues and they are going to creep back out.
Deanie is the one to worry about. Bud will always have an aching feeling of baffled regret. He kept saying and doing the right things; until he didn’t.
But he ended up with an earthy clearer-eyed version of Deanie in Angelina. He’ll work himself to exhaustion every day without an ulterior motive. Angelina will be waiting for him.
He’ll always look around and notice something is missing—oh how could Deanie not be there. Then he’ll remember to put that out of his head and go back to the next thing that needs doing.
The timing and the interference kept them apart. He would have had to be a completely different person to be able to get around the granite tornado of his father and the “don’t move or breathe—you’ll break her” of her mom.
Deanie. Deanie is going to feel like she missed out on something.Something was kept out of her reach. I don’t just mean tempestuous young first love and sex.
I mean going through all that and then deciding what to do about it on her own.
Her balanced reasonable doctor fiancé that’s waiting for her sounds like Charles Bovary, all unawares, waiting for her.
She’s in danger of falling into the same disguised miseries as Madame Bovary.
I see it. Junior League and the Ladies Auxiliary ain’t going to fix things.
In my mind I see Deanie discovering “Mother’s Little Helpers” and the cocktail hour with a big sad sigh of relief.
It’s so sad.