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mxpowers43's Replies
I think it is effective only for those that responded emotionally and anyone thinking critically were more off put by it. Yes I acknowledge the emotional sympathetic appeal worked for many, but that does not mean it was a well written character. I would call her a well crafted manipulative tool but not a well fleshed out character.
"All the major characters have improbable abilities!"
Can we please not get into another , "but Luke and Anakin" argument? we have covered that ground million times and as far as I can see it is an argument that has been proven wrong by an abundance of evidence. I am going over only what would make the character work in the film as is, at least as far as I can see. It would not only work for novelization it would work in film too even if it is a short introduction. It is an exercise in good writing and direction which this film lacked but it is fully possible.
"What the filmmakers wanted to tell us was that she's living a hardscrabble life but she's a decent person and even a bit fun, and they succeeded at that... at least at first viewing."
I do not have a problem with that in itself but then she goes on to be hyper competent at literally everything she tries. This requires some more fleshed out background otherwise it is seemingly a contradiction and makes it very hard to accept the character in anything other than an emotional level.
Can you at least acknowledge that Rey resonated with you on an emotional level and that could make you less likely to be critical of the character?
In your mind how is Rey not a contradictory character? Do not use another ad hominem or I will no longer reply to you. "mewling simpletons" is an ad hominem just in case you are not aware of the logic fallacy you are making. It is a form of attacking the critic and not the argument. For someone that mocks the critic in this case as a simpleton you (non)argue quite like one.
Yes because exposition is not required, backgrounds not given and only intelligentsia are enlightened enough to 'get it'. I love that anytime someone points out that a characters behavior or ability does not match their background someone claims that 'you just aren't getting it' and 'not everything needs to be spoon fed'.
So tell me, if it is so obvious, why is Rey socially well adjusted when she is depicted as a loner in the first 15 minutes of the film? Why does she even bother to rescue BB-8 if she turns around and sends him alone into danger? Why is she so annoyed with BB-8 being with her, turns around tries to sell him, turns around again and decides not to? And that is just the beginning of her character. Lets get into why is she a pilot? what in her background demonstrates that would have been a required skill for her? what jobs was she doing 'flying around on the planet'?
This is not just a need for the audience to be spoon fed, this is direct contradiction in her presentation and also contradiction with the continuity of the the original story. In order for the character to work at all one needs to make a large number of assumption about her background that are in no way signified by the film itself.
For example, in order to accept that she is a competent fighter one has to assume Jakuu is a harsh environment in which she fights regularly. But this is not what the film actually suggest. The film suggest they have a relatively peaceful civilization. There is no fighting until BB-8 arrives. There is one brief argument between Rey and the other scrap collector but this is solved , inexplicably, without violence. How does one not acknowledge that she has radical mind changes without much prompt? instead of acknowledging faulty writing you immediate write of criticism as coming from "dullards, degenerates and dunces". Can't even make a single supporting argument instead you immediately go to ad hominems to discredit the critic.
Ah both of those are gold too. Mel Brookes and Trey Parker/Matt Stone are really good with comedy songs in film/TV. I am struggling though to think of some non comedy songs and for some reason all I can imagine is the songs from Wizard of Oz and the few times the characters sing in Lord of the Rings. There is so much out there but I am just limited right now in remembering them.
ah I see. So songs that were like actually song in the film or TV and not song 'over' it. I wonder if I can think of others. Maybe like "Day-O" or "Jump in the Line" both song in Beetlejuice.
I have a hard time thinking of ones i liked besides the more comedy purposed ones.
Do you mean favorite original song specifically or can theme music or musical score be included? Also would it have to be something that was included in the film itself or something done for the credits only?
For me one of my favorite original songs for a movie is "May It Be" from Fellowship of the Ring:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJVxEaGrHS4[/url]
My favorite score is probably "Welcome to Jurassic Park":
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msimASAXoys[/url]
Favorite in movie song is probably "Men in Tights" from Robin Hood: Men in Tights just because it is the funniest song I have ever seen\heard in a film:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G59JnM4JKNQ[/url]
making movies that are as appealing to the largest majority of the audience as possible to maximize the number of people that will pay to see and attempt to alienate as few as possible. Problem with that is making entertainment designed to be as non divisive as possible means you are making entertainment that is inherently simplified and non challenging to view. This means no complex character with depth or intelligence that might challenge a viewer, no plots with subtlety and definitely no themes that might challenge the current status quo. there is a reason for the phrase "the dumb masses" and that is who the studios are making movies for now. there is no precedence for telling a story or being a creator or artist. It is all about the corporate bottom line that is focused on nothing more than getting as many people into the theater.
Yeah that crap about slaves building the monument was just stupid and out of place. If she was at the pyramids of giza would she not appreciate that because they were built by Hebrew slaves, how about the Coleseum which was built by mostly slaves from Gaul? Just a stupid PC crap line.
I also agree that superhero genre is getting stale.
On a side note the whole self righteousness of sticking our nose up at American slavery is a rather large ignoring of the fact that slavery and servitude to monarchs was a normal part of human civilization until relatively recently. Individual freedom is a very new concept, like less than 300 years old and it took about an addition 230 years to perfect. To look back and put a mindless, 'because American slavery was more recent' spin on it is rather insulting considering the groups that practiced slavery for the longest period in human history was the Egyptians and the Persians. Your talking each one practiced slavery for around a 1000 years. Also it ignores that in certain Asian and African countries there is still forms of slavery that still go on even today.
Yeah i did not see Covenant and will not see any sequels. Prometheus came out before I realized what the studios are doing now a days. I liked kingsman so I saw that in theaters. I think the planet of the apes reboots were pretty good and I am torn about whether I want to see Thor. I am burned out of comic book movies. I just rented Spider man homcoming and did not like it. So I have very little enthusiasm for movies or video games now a days. I am more excited about finishing my degree and reading lately.
Yeah it is quite amazing, the medium for telling a story on TV in the last 20 years has really changed the demands of a movie experience. A show has usually 10 hours per season and multiple season to tell a story. A movie at 2 hours length will never compete with that. Studios know they can't compete in the manner of telling story that is that compelling and can hold the audience that long so instead they go for big budget spectacles and care very little for the story. in addition to that they use franchises that already have a guaranteed fan base. This leads to the extreme low quality stories we see today.
Also I agree that the modern audiences are less intelligent, to the degree they seem less and less concerned with being challenged or thinking critically. Not that they are dumber or less knowledgeable but at least in their desired entertainment do not want to be challenged to think very much.
LOL it is like the film makers say "we don't care how much you hate it, we don't care how few of you see it, we don't care how much money we loss. We will keep producing nothing but sequels, prequels and reboots for series that you never asked for until your freaking souls die and we consume the essence of your once living spirit". Movies are very depressing now a days. I don't remember feeling like this in the 80's or 90's. Tell me am i just looking back with rose colored glasses or has cinema really taken that much of a dive in the last 15 years? Combined with all the wacky scandals now, there is nothing good coming from the entertainment arts. shame, was once a great entertainment media.
Main flaws:
Plot - unfocused and badly timed narrative shifts combined with over use of rehashed elements and plot points (and visuals) from the OT (mostly from ANH).
Rey - Overpowered and too much emphasis on her mysterious background leads to inexplicably fast developed abilities that undermine her character growth and undermine the mythos of the force. Basically she has no arc because she is good whatever the plot demands when it demands it and overcomes the challenges without much effort. She also seemingly has no true character flaws. No anger, no pride, no too much humility, no vanity, no arrogance. The only thing that comes close to a character flaw is naivety; given her naive expectation her parents will return and the way she naively believes Finn's lies. But again that does not work given her background as a lone scavenger. Naive lone scavengers would not survive in such an environment. so this flaw does not fit the given background. Which leads to the next flaw:
Characters - Most do not behave or react properly given their known background. Finn does not behave like an indoctrinated soldier and his becoming socially 'normal' happens too fast and without reason. Rey does not act like a loner scavenger and is also too trusting and in no way socially awkward like such a character should be. Han and Leia both inexplicable regress to their pre-ANH selves and this undermines their development in the OT. Luke is inexplicably absent. Poe is underdeveloped and Overpowered. Kylo Ren is inconsistent in his power level and no real dimension was given his struggle with the light. It fails the show don't tell test.
No focus to cohesive story telling - Everything is a "Good question. for another time" This is just a cop out. They did not have good answers so blew them off. They even tell you this in the film.
Poorly timed and for too modern self aware unnatrual humor - "who talks first, you talk first" "got a boyfried? cute boyfreind? "Droid please" Need I say more?
And these are just scratching the surface.
The interesting thing I find about music is it demonstrates perfectly the idea of what is good. Music is good when it is harmonious. It follows that for anything to be good it needs to be harmonious. Maybe that is what good means 'the proper balance of harmony with order'. Given added context like lyrics you can not only hit people at an almost spiritual level with the music itself but also lead them in a unique way to a unavoidable emotional reaction. This is why we can't help but smile at some songs I think.
People do not have to agree on personal preference. which is why if someone says TFA was a flawed film that they enjoyed anyway I would not complain. That is not the case though. There a large number of those like you that are trying to undermine the significance of these flaws, make excuses for them, or outright deny the flaws are there. That is the problem and the reason for such contention.
There has to be some objective measure to judging art (like film) otherwise I could spit mixed colors on to a canvas and it could be claimed to be better than or even equal to "the Last Supper". Either contestation would be utter nonsense. This is what I see many arguments in defense of this movie to be.
Good point both certainly had an impact on movies. I can almost see that they split the ways movies were made. One goes down the path of Godfather and goes for Epic narrative. Others go down the path of Jaws and do blockbuster. We likely would not have some of the best blockbuster movies. However given that Star Wars came out within just a few years after Jaws, one could potentially see that blockbusters still would have happened; but than again maybe star Wars would not have gotten made without Spielberg's influence. so who knows.
But I disagree that critics underrate the influence Jaws had, I think they just recognize it is not a masterpiece like Godfather or Citizen Kane or seven samurai, or any other movies that are considered cinematic masterpieces. I think they recognize Jaws as a great film that was hugely influential in paving the way for the blockbuster film type. And therefore deserving to be recognized among the top 100 movies of all time but never deserving to be top 10.
Happy Together by the Turtles, such a goofy song I can't help but smile at it.
Werewolves of London by Warren Zevron is another goofy song that is a lot of fun.
Never heard that Acid Jazz singer song before. Good song but does not have that same "can't help but smile" feel that the 2 i gave give me. Maybe that is because I need something goofy to get me to feel good. How do I not smile at line like:
"I saw a werewolf drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's
And his hair was perfect"
This is a pretty good summary of why Godfather is a better film. Not to say one cannot enjoy Jaws more. I think I do, but I can put aside my own personal taste and recognize that the Godfather is as you said "on another level".
There is a reason that The Godfather and Part 2 are basically on every critic's and film institutions' top 5 list and Jaws is not. A movie can't have that kind of widespread recognition for that long of time and not be considered among the best of all time. I hardly see jaws making a top 100 list of those same critics and institutions. One would have to be very biased to try to claim Jaws is a superior film and not be questioned for their lack of partiality.
As we have had several debates about judging film by objective standards and how much subjective opinion plays a role, the way I answer this is Godfather is the better film, arguably top 3 to 5 of all films ever made in the last 100+ years of cinema. Jaws is also high up on best movies of all time and for me I personally prefer Jaws.