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CluelessDrifter's Replies
Episode 8:
Bugs - 10
Crossroad Blues - 11
A Very Supernatural Christmas - 12
Wishful Thinking - 13
Changing Channels - 11 (+1) = 12
All Dogs Go to Heaven - 10
Season 7, Time for a Wedding - 9
Hunteri Heroici - 10
Rock and a Hard Place - 10
Hibbing 911 - 10
Just My Imagination - 10
LOTUS - 4 (-1) = 3
[quote]I wanted to join the episode elimination game but wasn't at all certain how it worked![/quote]
Please do! Whatever questions you have, just ask, and I'll try to answer them. Otherwise, it's just going to end up being my favorite episode, and I already know which one is my favorite . . . or at least my top 10.
Yeah, I think that's the difference. I actually quite liked Ketch in a love to hate kind of way by the end of his run, and I like DHJ. I think he'd be amused and maybe appreciative if he won this, which is why I wouldn't mind if he won, but at the same time, I think it'd be funny in an admittedly mean-spirited sort of way if the writers won for being out and out hated. I doubt it'd get the point across though even if they somehow heard about it.
Episode 4:
Phantom Traveller - 10
Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things - 10
Sin City - 10
Metamorphosis - 10
The End - 15 (+1) = 16
Weekend at Bobby's - 10
Bitten - 10
Slumber Party - 5 (-1) = 4
Paper Moon - 10
Baby - 12
American Nightmare - 10
She really does.
Oh no. After everything you've heard us say about it, I wonder what you'll think of it. I also wonder if binge watching it will make much of a difference for you.
So now you're giving John all the credit for stopping the Apocalypse just so you can say that John was a potential righteous man when I say there was only ever one righteous man who could have been the first seal AND who could've stopped the Apocalypse? ;p
[quote]If you are into quantum theory and parallel universes at all there is speculation that whenever there are multiple choices a new universe is created to support every outcome.[/quote]
Yeah, I wrote a fanfiction that deals with this somewhat. :)
:)
[quote]It is just we are disagreeing where exactly the brothers are important to the apocalypse. For me everything before the cemetery can have someone else inserted by other of similar blood or situation. For me what they are vital for is what happened at the cemetery as without Sam and Dean things wouldn't have really come to a head and ended. [/quote]
But the righteous man prophecy was a two parter, and I think that's what makes Dean the only one who could fulfill it.
"As for Sam and Dean not being born, I don't think something weird was necessary. It is possible that Mary did what we have been shown that was bad and just didn't make stupid deal for a loved one, through free will. But even though at the time she was right not to she suffered the consequences of it with the world being dragged into darkness and becoming a drunk."
But the angels went to a lot of trouble to make sure that happened, i.e. made sure that Mary and John met, so why didn't they then step in to make sure that John survived in that universe? It's like they had the set up of influencing the perfect lines, got to the finishing line and tripped over their feet, but decided not to get up and finish it, whereas they did in our universe.
Except now I wonder if Azazel is how John was killed, because I always thought that by sending Dean back to the past, the angels put Mary on Azazel's radar. Without John figuring out that Azazel visited Mary's friend on the farm and Dean reading that in his journal to know where Azazel would be, Samuel and Mary would have had no reason to go there, which would mean that John wouldn't have been killed by Azazel. I think if Mary was killed in some kind of keeping with fate when our John would have died, just slightly different, then anything could have killed John, and Mary was either never given the option to make a deal or just didn't make a deal if somehow Azazel did still find out about her.
I also know that with Dean not being born there, that couldn't be done, but with the effort our angels made to ensure that both John survived and Mary made her deal by sending Dean back in time, the angels in that universe would've found another way to do it. They just didn't, which means they didn't follow through on the things Gabriel said they'd always known, and as a result there was no Dean to send back.
Honestly, I don't think the writers put as much thought into this as they should have, and I don't think that they remember the cupid thing. I think they just wanted a loose parallel between AU!Mary and our John, so that Mary and John's roles were reversed. I think it's supposed to be some kind of a lesson for Mary to learn that her 'deal' wasn't a bad thing.
As an aside, since we don't really have a Crowley/Mark appreciation page, and both are gone from the show now anyway, I thought I'd put these here.
[url]https://www.instagram.com/p/BUoUNS8F7_i/?taken-by=realmarksheppard[/url]
[url]https://www.instagram.com/p/BUyH0xSFvH6/?taken-by=realmarksheppard[/url]
I don't even understand what we're disagreeing about at this point. :)
I think my point originally was that essentially, the AU minimizes Sam and Dean's importance in seasons 1-4 and part of 5, but turns that around by saying they ultimately saved the universe. I just should've come right out and said it instead of asking facetious questions.
I think that's where we got sidetracked, because I disagree that in the SPN universe, anyone but Dean could have been the righteous man. Alistair causing him to break in hell AND being the only one who could stop the Apocalypse was what made Dean the only one who could fulfill that prophecy. John couldn't have gotten through to Sam. Adam couldn't have gotten through to Sam. Random Winchester X could have gotten through to Sam. Only Dean could have, and that's what made him the only one who could fulfill that prophecy in it's entirety.
Anyway, I still think that something weird had to have happened before Sam and Dean should have been born in that universe (more than Mary not making her deal - like something with the angels), not that them not being born is what caused it to look like that, but something that happened maybe with the angels or something with the angel's understanding of the 'bloodlines' they needed to get right for Sam and Dean to exist in the SPN universe.
Yeah, I don't dispute that things after Sam and Dean being born were changed in those possible ways. It's the things that were changed prior to their birth that I'm questioning.
I think people are confusing me saying prophecy to mean the ones about the righteous man and all the rest of it. I'm specifically talking about what Gabriel said about everything coming down to Sam and Dean, something angels had known since creation, and I'm talking about what the angels did to facilitate that by having cupid make sure John and Mary got together . . . the whole chain of events that had to have been coordinated to make Sam and Dean be born was predicated on what Gabriel said and match-making in Heaven, so if the angels just sat back and didn't do those things, does that mean they didn't have the same loose plan the angels in the SPN universe followed. And if that's the case, then it's down to those loose plans not existing or the angels not interpreting them the same way, so it's really more that, than Sam and Dean not being born that lead to that world being the way it is.
Stopping the Apocalypse had nothing to do with being a vessel. That's just what the angels thought that prophecy meant. It was because Dean showed up in Stull Cemetery that the Apocalypse didn't happen.
See, I thought about one of Azazel's other psy kids leading the demon army, but then I thought about how Lucifer only sent him on that mission to find a special child, so that child would then kill Lilith. That doesn't necessarily change anything as any random psy kid could have presumably done that. And I guess the demons could've somehow found a random righteous man willing to sell his soul, so Alistair could break the first seal, and that random righteous man was the only one who could stop it, but didn't . . . maybe because he agreed to become Michael's vessel, and he wasn't strong enough as he wasn't a OTV . . . same goes for Nick, because I guess Lucifer still went to him . . . except that raises all kinds of questions about the prophecies in that universe that lead to Sam and Dean being and born.
Gabriel said the angels had always known it would come down to Sam and Dean, which is why the angels went about making sure the lines of Cain and Abel eventually lead to Sam and Dean. Does that mean that those prophecies weren't there or weren't the same, and if that's the case, then how much of it is because Sam and Dean weren't born, and how much of it is because the prophecies weren't there?
He couldn't have been, or he would have been.
There was only one who could stop it. :)
[quote]Am guessing that any vessel marked for the main Michael vessel would be marked as the righteous man and for Alistair would need to break them as the first seal.[/quote]
No, I don't agree with this at all. Dean being the Righteous Man wasn't because he was Michael's vessel. He just happened to be both. And he would've had to sell his soul and still die a righteous man to become that seal.
Also, what about Dean being the Righteous Man? Was Alistair breaking him in Hell not needed to start breaking the seals, or are we guessing that something else happened there?