MovieChat Forums > Terminator: Dark Fate (2019) Discussion > Can the franchise be salvaged?

Can the franchise be salvaged?

posted 5 years ago by PrimeMinisterX (8762)
52 replies | jump to latest

With the release of Dark Fate, the whole thing is officially just a huge fucking mess.

We were good up through Salvation. T1, T2, T3, Salvation. No problem. One story.

Then we get Genisys which decided to go off and do its own thing and be a reboot of sorts, basically giving the middle finger to the first four films.

And now we get Dark Fate, which just ignores the existence of everything after T2 and acts as a sequel to T2 while ALSO being a reboot that takes the story in a whole other direction.

At this point, there's no way we'll ever get a sequel to Salvation. It's just not happening. Nor will we see a continuation of the Genisys timeline. And after Dark Fate's box office failure, I'm sure the studios will just want to forget about that one as well.

So is there any way to salvage this mess and get the series back on track? Or is it officially dead and buried, now and forever more, never to be heard from again?

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I severely doubt it. Terminator was a result of a fever dream that Cameron had, he's not likely to pursue it. His new love, of course, is giant Smurfs.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

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[–] PrimeMinisterX (8762) 5 years ago

It's a damn shame Cameron decided that Avatar was the way he wanted to spend the last two decades of his career.

I looked at his filmography and was shocked to see that he hasn't directed a movie that I liked since 1997 (Titanic) and the only project since then that I enjoyed that he was involved with in any capacity is Alita.

He's destined to go down in history as a filmmaker who was great . . . for a while. And then he either stopped caring or lost his edge, I'm not sure which.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

You can say the same about George Lucas and Peter Jackson, too.

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8762) 5 years ago

Yeah, Lucas just seemed to lose interest, at least in terms of actually directing films.

Similarly, Peter Jackson just hasn't done much beyond The Hobbit, which didn't turn out well. I did enjoy King Kong, but that was almost 15 years ago now.

To be fair, I have heard good things about his new WWI documentary.

[–] bozo_500 (13151) 5 years ago

Maybe a(nother) reboot in a few years with little to no links to any previous Arnold terminators .. a complete reboot going back to the low budget dark horror of the first film (basically making another low budget horror film like Halloween 2018 did - so when it grossed 250m ww it was a massive profit).. but then maybe after 3-4 duds in a row 'terminator' just isn't really a viable cinematic brand anymore (same with Predator, Alien, Blade Runner) well it certainty isn't for continuing with big budget action movies. So if there was to be another try it'd have to be low budget, but then maybe that would mean TV/streaming? (like Lethal Weapon etc) then again would anyone be all that excited for a(nother) terminator TV show?

Terminator has been seemingly dead before (12 years between T2/3! then T4/5 disappointing/underperforming)...but none have bombed as bad as DF, so we are in uncharted territory..an unknown future rolls toward us..we face it for the first time with a sense of a 'dark fate'..

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8762) 5 years ago

I doubt the series will ever again go the dark horror route, but I agree that the only hope at this point is a clean slate reboot or something very close to it. Basically they'll just have to take the core concept and make something new from it.

It really seems to me that there have to be more interesting stories to tell within this universe, but all the writers who have gotten a crack at it have failed to tap into this potential. I'm not sure if this is simple creative bankruptcy on their part, but there has to be new directions to go in instead of just recycling the same story elements over and over.

[–] conanurdevilish (73) 5 years ago

Maybe a(nother) reboot in a few years with little to no links to any previous Arnold terminators .. a complete reboot going back to the low budget dark horror of the first film

A reboot would just make matters worse. Audiences utterly hates reboots now and are sick of it. The TV series, Genysis and Dark Fate all attempted to reboot the franchise and the audiences stopped caring more and more with each outing. If they reboot again, the franchise would be a bigger joke of rebooting itself than the Spiderman franchise.

Only hope I feel is if Dark Fate gets second life in post theatre release, and they decide to continue on the story some years down the road. Best Example I can think of is the Jurassic Park franchise. JP3 wasn't very well received and put the franchise on ice for 14 years. However once the franchise was ready to come back, everyone got past the feeling disappointment JP3 left them and were ready to return back to the franchise. The made the smart decision to make it a sequel instead of reboot, and the franchise been making a billion dollars each now.

[–] ebhaynz (3689) 5 years ago

They'll do movies, tv shows, spinoffs, comics, etc. forever more. Just like all the other franchises(Wizard of Oz ring a bell?) they've beat to absolutely fu_k!ng death.

[–] TandyMan (11120) 5 years ago

Yes, but they need to completely start over. With no Arnold. A proper remake from the ground floor up, with a more open ended story in mind that will allow for sequels.

[–] 10200 (656) 5 years ago

Are you suggesting a remake of T1? Why should they remake something that can not and should not ever be duplicated again? Just my opinion, but a remake would be a travesty.

[–] TandyMan (11120) 5 years ago

Well, because of just that. Same reason I want a Highlander reboot even though it's greatest movie ever made. If you want to have an open ended franchise that can produce a dozen movie entries, you have to start over and retool the story and take away the definitive ending. You can't just keep tacking chapters on to a finished story that got it all right the first time, it will never work.

[–] 10200 (656) 5 years ago

Who wants a dozen Terminator movies???? Even most of us who would loved to have seen a really good future war story would probably agree that could only go so far before it too became old. IMO, it's a story with limited options and when it starts down a different path it stops becoming a Terminator movie.

[–] TandyMan (11120) 5 years ago

It needs to blown up like Fast n Furious. It all does. I want Terminator plastered on every soda cup from now till the end of civilization.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I haven't seen this film but I have seen the others and for me the franchise died after the second film. The first one was great, dark, semi horror and low budget the second one should have kept that feel to it but they went crazy but it was still a decent movie. After that it just becomes a joke.

Genisys was awful as mentioned you have to ignore the other films.

From what I have heard and read they kill John Connor early on in this so they can replace him with basically the same type of character but of course a female now. They have also employed the "RetCon" thing again because now you have to ignore every film after the second one. I find that kind of thing really cheap and nasty, it tells me that the people making this crap don't care about the product or it's history. And if they don't care, then why should I?

I don't think you can salvage it. The best they can do is wait at least 10 years and just reboot the whole thing again if they wanted to but then that also depends if people are still interested or not by then.

I think they need to learn some lessons, not just from this mess but from many other messes, Charlie's Angels being another current bomb as well as Ghostbusters 2016. But of course they won't.

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8762) 5 years ago

I think T2 is much better than simply "a decent movie." I think it's the best in the franchise and it's one of the best action movies of all time.

As for the sequels, T3 is not a great film and is nothing compared to T1 and T2 but I still kind of enjoy it and think it has a few charms of its own. I also think Salvation is worth watching as long as you just judge it on its own merits and don't compare it to what came before it. In fact, I just purchased the Terminator Anthology on Blu-Ray, which has the first four films, and I'm happy to have all four of them.

I do agree though that the only hope here is just to wipe the slate clean and do a full reboot of the concept, building a new, independent series of films around the same idea. The success would depend entirely on the quality of writing and the creativity behind it. The writers would certainly have to do a better job than the writers have done with the last couple of films.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I preferred the darker original film. I am not much for special effects.

I would hope if they did reboot the whole thing down the track they can have a consistent story line rather than bounce back and forth and expect the audience to delete particular films from their minds if it doesn't fit the new direction they want to take it in.

[–] conanurdevilish (73) 5 years ago

>I think they need to learn some lessons, not just from this mess but from many other messes, Charlie's Angels being another current bomb as well as Ghostbusters 2016. But of course they won't.

By "lessons" you mean not put women in movies as something besides sex objects like Black Widow right? You want all movies to look like the Expendables right? Get the hell out of here. Have you ever even seen a Terminator or James Cameron movie not drunk? Speaking of Expendables, you want to tell me how much did Stallone's last outing Rambo: Last Blood made? Hellboy, Shaft, Child's Play, Angel has Fallen and all those other dudebros franchises that came out this year? How about last year's The Predator? What were their box offices again?

Newsflash, every movie that wasn't either a superhero movie or Disney film struggled this year.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Oh, I'm being shamed, oh, I'm melting... oh, it hurts, it hurts... nah not really it's just boring.

[–] conanurdevilish (73) 5 years ago

No you're being called out and given a dose of reality.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Another moronic troll.

[–] conanurdevilish (73) 5 years ago

LOL at the user who thinks complaining that women are in a Terminator movie of all things isn't the troll here.

[–] HAL9000 (935) 5 years ago

Terminator probably becomes the C-movie franchise Alien and Predator are already are. Only a matter of time until we see T vs Alien

[–] manwithoutaplan (227) 5 years ago

I don't understand why movie companies just want to shove silly stories down our throats and tell us to consume it. Terminator was a good run, this nonsense of late is dumb. I saw your post below and I agree, the first four have value. The fourth is a stretch but works, the third has moments, the first two are great.
Terminator was a great ORIGINAL movie Hollywood, now move on to the next great ORIGINAL movie.... oh wait, they can't. I sob.

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8762) 5 years ago

I enjoy revisiting existing worlds and seeing the mythologies built out into ever greater and more complex proportions. But I also think that we definitely need more original properties.

On the action front, John Wick was certainly a breath of fresh air when it hit the scene, and as we know it has become a franchise of its own. I also enjoyed Olympus Has Fallen, which also became its own franchise.

Often times, though, moviegoers just don't get out and support original stories. If it's not based on some kind of existing IP, it's a real crapshoot as to whether people will pay to see it, and I think that makes studios really reluctant to spend much money on producing films that don't already have a built-in fanbase.

[–] 10200 (656) 5 years ago

"Often times, though, moviegoers just don't get out and support original stories. If it's not based on some kind of existing IP, it's a real crapshoot as to whether people will pay to see it, and I think that makes studios really reluctant to spend much money on producing films that don't already have a built-in fanbase."

Agree, but then they should realize not to alienate that fanbase the way they did in DF. Offhand I don't recall any sequel that has pissed off fans as much as DF and they had to know going in that killing John would cause a backlash.

[–] manwithoutaplan (227) 5 years ago

Shit................... I missed out on John Wick, effing AWESOME. Didn't see any in the theater but John Wick's character is so effing good. I have no idea why I didn't see it in theaters. Maybe because I thought it was Keanu being Keanu on screen, but legit those first two movies are great action film. Seriously great action.

Haven't seen three, LOL............ I'm going through the franchise NOT seeing it on screen. Anyone ever done that?

Enjoy your day.

And the thing about John is he loves his dog. ...........................

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8762) 5 years ago

I missed the first two films on the big screen. I feel a little bad about that. Like you, I think I just didn't expect much.

It's a great action film franchise, though. It has done a lot to rejuvenate Keanu's career and I hope it also has encouraged studios to take more risks on original ideas.

[–] HAL9000 (935) 5 years ago

original idea? john wick is a steven seagal movie with keanu reeves

[–] conanurdevilish (73) 5 years ago

original idea? john wick is a steven seagal movie with keanu reeves

Exactly. Movies like John Wick and Expendables were made specifically to be nostalgia trips that reminds people of action movies of the 80s and 90s. That's what their whole appeal was. The exact opposite of what an original idea is.

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8762) 5 years ago

In industry-speak, when people talk of something being an "original idea" or an "original script," they mean it's not based on an existing property.

Think about how the Oscars has two screenplay categories: Best Adapted Screenplay and Best Original Screenplay. John Wick is the latter.

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8762) 5 years ago

Original idea = not based on an existing IP.

And no, John Wick and Above the Law have very little in common beyond the fact that the lead guy fights people.

[–] HAL9000 (935) 5 years ago

well, seagall never had any IP, yet 80% of his movies had the same "revenge plot" we see in Wick. Overpowererd martial arts guy fights the mafia.

Even if you call Wick an original movie, we already have 3 of them now, so its an IP.

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8762) 5 years ago

You're right that John Wick has developed into an IP of its own, and I'm glad that it has. But when the first film came around it was just a new R-rated action movie that wasn't a sequel, a prequel, a reboot, or based on a comic book, and that was a refreshing thing.

Revenge stories have been around since the dawn of time. The Count of Monte Cristo was written in the 1800s and it's perhaps the greatest revenge story of all time. These kinds of tales certainly didn't begin or end with Steven Seagal.

I'll also point that the Wick series has developed a rich mythology within itself, with the league of assassins and the Continental and all that jazz, all of which is very different from anything you see in any Seagal film. And in the same way that the Bourne films came along put a fresh face on fight choreography, the John Wick did the same thing.

[–] HAL9000 (935) 5 years ago

I doubt Count was an ex-military closecombat elite fighter though ;)
ok, i can see you arguments for Wick, to me its still just a kind of movie ive seen a lot of already and for sure not a bad one. Bourne kinda had a more unique approach iirc. he was a universal soldier though.

I dont even remember I saw a new movie that really felt new. probably something around 2000.

[–] LLOwens (983) 5 years ago

So is there any way to salvage this mess and get the series back on track? Or is it officially dead and buried, now and forever more, never to be heard from again?

The only thing I can think of would be to send a terminator back to 1984 with all the Terminator films and coerce Hollywood studio execs to release them in reverse order, starting with Terminator: Dark Fate. That way this franchise would be getting progressively better with each subsequent release--a snowball effect if you will. Heck, at least Dark Fate would probably win an Oscar for Visual Effects if it were released back in the '80s while T1 would have a shot at receiving a Best Director Oscar nom if it's theatrical premiere was held back to 2019, while T2, if it debuted 5 years prior, would have a worldwide gross of over a billion dollars. Of course for the earlier films, production companies would have to spend a considerable amount of money remastering the films and giving it an ultra high definition restoration so it won't appear as dated.