Are we a product of nurture or nature?
Does our environment shape who we are or are we just born to be a certain way?
shareDoes our environment shape who we are or are we just born to be a certain way?
shareYes.
shareI’ll put you down as a ‘both’ then 😉
shareWellllll, it depends which aspect of our 'product' we're discussing - but if we take something like psychopathy, it's pretty well-documented that there are both genetic and environmental factors involved in producing a psychopath. And it simply must be the same for a lot of less extreme products.
So, yeah, little from column A, little from column B. You can indeed put me down as 'both'.
*starts backing away slowly*
shareif we take something like psychopathy, it's pretty well-documented that there are both genetic and environmental factors involved in producing a psychopath.
https://www.betterhelp.com/advice/psychologists/what-is-the-nature-vs-nurture-psychology-debate-and-how-does-it-affect-me/
History Of Nature Vs. Nurture Debate Updated February 11, 2021
The nature vs. nurture psychology debate has been going on for thousands of years.
research continued to suggest that both were as equally important. Presently, the old nature vs. nurture debate is in deadlock, with both factor being as impactful.
How Twin Studies And Adoption Studies Have Changed The Debate
When researchers started conducting twin studies, the nature vs. nurture debate could be more accurately evaluated. Because identical twins share nearly all the same genetic information, the effects of their nurture were much more obvious. If their biology is the same, the differences must be due to their environment and learning. Adoptive siblings that are raised in the same environment, too, can give clues as to the role of nature in creating differences.
Twins that were raised apart still had similar IQs. On the contrary, children who were adopted by the same family with no genetic history in common were no more similar in IQ than children who had never even met each other. Therefore, it was concluded that IQ was largely determined by genetic factors.
Yet, the debate hasn't been completely settled
Another study found that of all the personality disorders recognized by the DSM-II-R, only antisocial personality (aka: psychopaths) seemed to be inherited
a third way to think of these issues. It's called the interactionist position. When you take this position, you recognize that both nature and nurture play a part in most psychological similarities and differences.
Most researchers recognize the contributions of both
Studies have consistently shown that adopted children show greater physical resemblance to their biological parents, rather than their adoptive parents.
Like adoption studies, twin studies support that psychological traits are extremely inheritable
The current school of thought is that nature and nurture are equally important and that both influence a person’s overall behavior and personality.
it's almost certainly both. there's not human behavior that i'm aware of that has been shown to have no genetic influence.
it would be very weird if there was imo. every animal's behavior is formed by evolutionary forces, nat & sex selection, drift, etc.
if human's were the one species where that wasn't the case that would be astonishing. proof for existence of god, even.
so when people give blank slate type arguments for human behavior - gender being the primary one these days, with so many people arguing it's strictly a cultural creation - i find that kinda baffling, & certainly not in line with the things i've read & learned.
but it's almost definitely the case that the environment that people assume has a huge impact on development - parental care - isn't as critical as peer group influences, schools, etc. judith harris's the nurture assumption is still a really interesting dive into that topic.
What about the more extreme personalities - serial killers for example?
sharei don't have a lot of specialized knowledge in anything like that, but i think the fact that so many extremely violent males show that behavior at very young ages, from the time of being a toddler displaying complete lack of self control, extreme outbursts, often in families where no other children show the same behavior, speaks to a heavy heritability.
& there are very interesting findings on how specific genes are linked with high aggression - the maoa aka 'warrior' gene. if you look that up, you'll see how genetic influences change the levels of hormones, metabolism, receptors, and how prison populations are disproportionately made up of people who have those characteristics.
i imagine there are many people born with that condition who don't lead criminal lives, perhaps struggle with some aspects of their lives in other ways though. nothing in the world can be completely binary, surely, where we can say 'this guy has that gene, therefore he's in this group and his life will go that way.'
but to me, the most important thing is that, no matter how much of our personalities are genetic or environment, none of these things are things you control.
you don't control your genes.
you don't control your parents.
you don't control your school and your teachers and the kids you go to school with.
you don't control whether your parents are rich and you go to a nice private school or you live in haiti in a slum.
none of the things that form you into the person you become are things you control. you don't have control over any of those inputs.
so you have no control over whether you're an autistic freak or a charismatic, fun guy everyone likes.
you don't control whether you're a math genius or a moron.
you are not the author of yourself.
"you don't control your school....."
I think that you can have some control over this.
as a child? i don't know any kids who controlled which school they were sent to.
if i had any control, would i have assented to being tormented for twelve years by those jackals?
don't mind me. if i sound bitter and angry, that's because i'm bitter and angry.
You sound neither bitter nor angry Damo, you always come off as a thoughtful person and right now we are trying to answer an unanswerable question
What conditions create an arsonist, a rapist, a killer..?
Even highly educated experts do not agree
A deadly combo of bad genetics and poor environment seems all any of us can come up with
thanks, i appreciate that. i'm just sort of going through a morose period, so excuse me if i seem a bit gloomy.
i basically agree with you. but i think we should always be very careful about leaning on environmental explanations, cuz it's all too easy to fall into 'if that parent had done this instead of that, things would be different.' we don't know that.
there are also lots of really interesting studies on identical twins who were split at birth, raised in different homes. and often the studies reinforce just how much they are the same, even when raised in radically different homes. the most famous case of that were identical twin brothers, one of whom was a hitler youth, the other raised by jews.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/14/us/jack-yufe-a-jew-whose-twin-was-a-nazi-dies-at-82.html
i'll try to come back later and post some of the twin studies.
In the UK we have a grammar school system. The smartest kids get to go there, regardless of status or where you come from.
sharei don't really see how that can be characterized as a choice, though?
you don't choose your iq. you don't choose how much ability you have to defer playing and goofing around and staying focused on something and being able to learn better than other people.
people who can do that are blessed, really lucky.
If you come from a poor family, from a bad part in town, you have the opportunity to apply yourself, work hard and get sent to a better school. To me, that’s having some control over which direction you might go in.
sharewell, i think all the other things i've said in this thread apply equally to this point.
& i don't want to keep droning on about this. i know i can be tone-deaf on stuff, and i don't wanna annoy people.
so i'll just say that all the things you'd have to in order to get into one of those schools are driven by characteristics that you don't control.
first of all, you'll need at least an average, likely higher than average iq. if you're at 90 or 80 you're out of the running, surely. and you don't have any control over that.
i assume there's an entrance exam? to take that exam, you certainly have to be able to take in a lot of information, hold it in your head, apply it in a systemic way to problems. if you're a low iq person, you're going to struggle to do something like that.
& if you are average but really apply yourself and work incredibly hard, then that definitely says something really positive about you.
but i assume we're talking about early teens, maybe even younger, right?
how much agency over those characteristics do you have at that point in your life?
i'd argue that you never really have true agency, but surely we wouldn't say that young children have full agency. we recognize that in law by treating them as minors, as a way of saying they can't be fully accountable for their actions.
if you're easily distractable, just wanna think about football scores or coronation street or whatever british kids are into, and can't focus for more than 10 minutes, and can't make yourself care about algebra or literature the way the girl next door can, are you responsible for that?
maybe it's all the culture, filled with cgi and flashy girls and anime that distracts you. but you don't control the culture. and you don't control the kind of mind you have that can't filter out all those things and make you focus on something and care about the result.
blah blah blah. i'm sure i'm being fucking annoying. feel free to ignore me.
but i strongly feel that people vastly overestimate the level of control every individual has in the kinds of characteristics that make someone succeed or fail in these types of things.
No need to ignore you. I think I was looking at my own personal experiences.
shareI don't think those inputs are solely responsible for the totality of you. You make a lot of choices in how you deal with things along the way. And those choices are pages in the book of you. I don't know of anyone who could not introspect and believe they could not have easily gone in different directions along the way. Iow, you're not a marionette.
sharewell, i would argue that what you feel is choice is really an illusion. the feeling that you could have done otherwise when you choose to do something, whether consequential or trivial, is based on the feeling we all have that we're in charge of something, running the show.
and i just don't think that holds up to scrutiny, when you look at what consciousness is, how it's an expression of something that's happening that i don't understand, that i don't think anyone truly understands. it's an emergent order coming from processes that are in many ways mysterious, and we absolutely do not control those processes.
so i think what we perceive as choice, as free will, is something that vanishes the more you look at it and think about it.
i mean...i don't know anything. i may be wrong about all of that. i just base this on what i've heard smart people say. and it all makes sense to me that way, in that all of the things we do and say and choose are results of something that we don't control. we don't control our genes, our environment, we don't control the things happening in our brain that create our thoughts, so i don't know how we can say that we're running the show, that we're operators in charge of our lives.
i think marionettes is actually a very good analogy for what's happening.
anyway, i may be wrong about all of that. i've been very influenced by sam harris and his writing and lectures on free will. if anyone's interested, there are lots of clips on youtube where he talks about it. he explains it better than i can.
here's one of the shorter clips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t_Uyi9bNS4&ab_channel=EAE
I'm well acquainted with the recent attacks on free will, and I've listened to a lot of Harris. I'm also familiar with the meta-study of so many of the other studies that try to prove free will does not exist. The findings are not pretty, but they're not as headline grabbing as "We don't have Free Will."
But even without that, there exists a problem of philosophy here. If you believe it's all determined, then that must include the theory itself, and its "formulation" -- i.e., you can't claim this as a process of gaining knowledge. A marionette can't know anything, including any theory that says we're all marionettes. We can't jump out of being determined, then use a process of logic to come up with a theory of determinism, point to it, then go back to being determined. And how can anyone say, "Based on my evaluation of the evidence, I've decided (a choice) that determinism is the reality here."? Wouldn't that also be illusory? If you don't "run the show," you didn't really make the choice to believe that Free Will does not exist. That's my problem with it. Determinists run the show, using logic, weighing evidence, choices all along the way, all to reach a conclusion that undermines the validity of that same process, and by implication, any conclusions reached.
good points, and i know that point you made in your second paragraph is something that's been brought up as a challenge, and i have to confess i don't recall what the determinist/anti-free will argument is to it. it's just been too long since i through myself into the topic.
but i think there is a confusion here, in that there are inputs, and changes that go into systems, and even if the choices that created those inputs weren't made by free will, it still changes the system.
so if i chose to read a book about free will instead of a book about ants, and that changed my beliefs on free will, it doesn't negate the fact that i didn't make the choice freely. and if i knew some stuff about ants instead of knowing a few things about free will, and believed in free will, none of that would lead you to concluding any of that was made out of free will.
either i made that choice based solely on some predetermined preference driven by my genes, my environment or some combination of that, or i made the choice because a cosmic ray hit my brain and made me make that decision in some totally random way. and none of that points you to anything like free will.
i dunno, i'm sure i'm making no sense and talking in circles. and i really should be more agnostic on the topic because i'm surely no expert on it. but to me, no matter how you look at it, free will seems like an incoherent idea.
happy moviechatting to you anyway.
There's not much more I can say, other than I would list you as a captain, who can steer the ship against the wind, and be one of those system changing inputs. I find it strange that it's eliminated when introspection can show endless examples of it in daily life. But I won't continue to challenge.
Anyway, I think this is the meta-study I was thinking of, but I could have sworn it was older, if you're interested.
https://news.ncsu.edu/2018/03/free-will-review-2018/
Even before this, I had problems with the experiments (I even participated in one) I was familiar with. And I also suspected agendas were baked in, you can guess the obvious ones that would come from academia, but that's another ball of wax.
Damo, you're one of the most thoughtful MC posters. Always appreciate reading your perspectives. Wish the world had more folks like you.
sharewow, thanks... what a great & really unexpected compliment! that's really nice of you to say. really, thank you...
shareAccepting a compliment for formulating thoughtful perspectives and your decision to post them here? You should point to the marionette strings, just as a determinist might if he failed in that regard. But I guess even the accepting of a compliment isn't coming from you either. It can never be you.
just kidding...
haha, touche...
shareIt's a combination of the two. We are born with basic personalities and temperaments. Listen to parents talking about their children and you will hear remarks like "my first baby was extremely fussy but my second one was easier to care for." These personality types are further shaped by the environment.
shareI think the examples you've given could be stated - the first was so difficult because we were so tense and afraid of doing something wrong but we were more relaxed with the second and it went a lot easier.
But I do agree that to some extent babies arrive with a personality.
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I can go with this.
shareBoth, but probably not equal. I think environment has more to do with it than nature. Someone born with a very high IQ and a great mind might never achieve their potential when raised in a bad household/neighborhoods - they might become criminal masterminds.
shareI think environment has more to do with it than nature. Someone born with a very high IQ and a great mind might never achieve their potential when raised in a bad household/neighborhoods -
https://www.betterhelp.com/advice/psychologists/what-is-the-nature-vs-nurture-psychology-debate-and-how-does-it-affect-me/
Twins that were raised apart still had similar IQs.share
On the contrary, children who were adopted by the same family with no genetic history in common were no more similar in IQ than children who had never even met each other.
Therefore, it was concluded that IQ was largely determined by genetic factors.
Like me then, lol.
share