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saviodium's Replies
I do not like the idea of banning so much because some people like me can get caught up in it, I get trolled or flamed and I have a bad habit of not letting it go and giving them the last word so I respond by calling them an idiot to which they report me. It is clever and pathetic; after reading some discussions here I should really reconsider my approach to such posters because I am getting trolled and because of my response to them other posters are siding with them. It is crazy. seriously go through this entire discussion and see my interactions with db20db. See how they immediately started accusing me of nonsense like being "incapable of self reflection" and then of being "too bias to be objective". When all I was asking was for pointers to peer reviewed information on the topic. because after a few back and forth exchanges with db I got frustrated and starting getting hostile not only did others side with him; but he was reporting me and got me flagged by the moderators.
oh come on. Freaking serious. I was making a legit inquiry on scientific evidence on a topic and db accused me of not being objective enough to be 'scientific'. what the hell could be more scientific than looking for peer reviewed information on the subject to confirm whether or not your assumption is correct. DB was contradicting he was trolling me. And because you weren't paying attention you sided with a troll. Nice job.
right because no amount of objective viewing can be applied. it is 100% subjective, that is why Transformers is the best movie ever and no one can tell me I am wrong because it is all subjective.
god, I didn't know you were one of those people. You seemed a little more sensible at first.
Also it is worth noting you did not give a single good reason for why you like Rey besides subjective feelings. Then when I pointed this out you began to try to attack my character by suggesting there is something wrong with me and therefore my 'opinion' is invalid or by default incorrect. This is a typical response from someone that knows they have a weak position or argument. If you can't beat the criticism attack the critic.
I don't care about others opinions, but I am interested in if they can come up with good reasoning for their own. Apparently those that like Rey can't come up with a good at least somewhat objective reason.
I am better equipped to give objective criticism and analysis on something like a film because I judge it based on merit and not on how I feel about it. because I really do not feel anything. So yes, that makes me better equipped to judge the quality of a film.
Funny that you can't distinguish between opinion and critical analysis.
Just because I am impatient and lack empathy, does not mean my analysis is wrong.
In fact if I am sociopathic it would mean that I have a more analytical and critical mind and therefore my analysis on such things as character development or writing technique would be more thorough and conceptional sound than most. meaning my 'opinion' on such a thing would be more valuable because I am not swayed as easy by emotion or nostalgia.
"Being angry at something for almost a full two years in the knowledge that it will never change is a rather massive flaw. "
This is faulty logic. If it was the last movie in the series and there was not another coming out in a few months, my obsession would be illogical. I am forced to consider all the crappy writing that took place in TFA in anticipation for the Last Jedi, otherwise i would be one of those that is simply turning off my brain to make sure I don't think about it too much.
"Perhaps you would have been a better lead in TFA on that basis."
I would be the antagonist, and I think I would be better (well more terrifying at least) than Kylo.
"But characters usually need to be at least partially sympathetic. So no luck there."
hence why i admit to being the bad guy in films. I don't try to be, but I have a serious lack of empathy. I am not violent (though I know how to be) or psychopathic but I am easily annoyed by people and have no patience for what I see as mental weakness.
"Quick" to anger at injustice is not a flaw, quick to judge would be. But she does not do that. BB-8 is actually the one that was quick to judge Finn and Rey was quick to trust BB-8 and then quick to Trust Finn.
Now this is a flaw she has, naive and quick to trust. But that literally makes no sense given her background as a scavenger on a rough planet. She should be the exact opposite or she would have died in such an environment.
Sigh, this is just so frustrating. It is like I am wrong from not turning my brain off and just being okay with whatever disney churned out.
Sorry, again I do not mean to judge you for your opinion. I really have no problem with people liking Rey; I never get annoyed with people liking Vin Diesel saying he is so awesome or something. but no one ever tried defending Dom as a good well rounded character like they seem to do for Rey. I hope you do not find me distasteful because of my annoyance with this topic; but I hope you understand that I do not see you reasons for liking the character all that compelling.
"No I referred to the overwhelmingly most popular topic that accompanies the criticism that the character receives. If you have an original perspective, fine."
it is incredible presumptuous to just lump all criticism together without consideration. In Fact it is intellectually insulting.
"Because the depiction of Rey successfully pulled that off."
What was pulled off? She was great at everything, liked by everyone, the whole movie pointed a big spotlight at her she was the focus in a way that was distracting and irritating. It is so bad that even the filmmakers admit they made a mistake or 2. See the JJ admitting the Rey/Leia hug was a mistake.
I see that we are breaking for now. i hope that you forgive my frustration with this topic. It really reacts my mind to see the defense the character gets and from what I can so no one has a good reason for liking and defending the character. Which sucks for me because it basically guarantees I will never enjoy any star wars movie again.
Now about Rey's 'faults:
" Rey's quasi self imposed exile. "
Self imposed? she was dropped off there and it was the only life she knew of. that is not self imposed exile that is a fear of change.
"Waiting in vain following her abandonment. Unable to motivate herself to get off her butt and exploit her gifts."
this is the same so called fault now listed 3 times. She is stuck and Jakuu and doesn't seem to want to or is to afraid to leave. That is not really a character fault. This is like saying you have a character fault if you are illiterate because no one taught you to read. A character fault is something that a character does that is relatable, like stubbornness, or complaining, or arrogance, or lack of confidence. The later is the closest to a fault you could say she has but she is so hyper competent and seems to know how good she is at things she does not really demonstrate a lack of confidence outside the fear of not being on Jakuu when her family returns. Again this is not a character flaw.
"Quickness to anger at injustice."
That is not a character flaw either. and it also brings up an interesting point. Anger at something evil is righteous not a flaw; but where the hell did she get her sense of morality. Did Unkar sit her down when she was a youngling and go over right and wrong with her?
"Fearful of a potentially greater destiny."
It is also not a flaw if you are ignorant of your potential or what you could apply you skills to, see my answer about being illiterate. It is not a character flaw if she never had the opportunity in the first place.
"There's absolutely nothing wrong with her origin "
Oh my bad I must of missed it, what is her origin?
"destiny bring an "enigma" (unknown, mysterious, ambiguous etc) in the first movie of a minimum of three."
When the character is already great at everything for seemingly no reason, the next movies are going to have to back track and give reason and that is going to feel backwards.
"I thought you were asking why I liked it. Not why I think you should like it."
You suggest I only don't like it because I have agenda or baggage. That is not reasons for you liking it, that is reasons for why I am wrong for not liking it. The only legitimate thing you said about why you like it is "she was the focus of a renewed sense of wonder about the mysteries of the force. "
This is basically saying you were going to like her no matter what. Which is a fine enough reason I guess, but you have to be willing to admit you did not care to much about story or development and therefore did not really think about it. You cared about the spectacle and you left satisfied.
"Since assumed agendas are invoked, virtually without fail, whenever identifying where the characterisation went "wrong", it is clear that virtually all those criticisms are carrying that presumption in with them. "
again you falsely accuse me of having an agenda. The only agenda I have is wanting to watch a film that offers coherent story telling and character development. If a film does not meet my presumption that the story will be competent than yes I suppose I presumed to much. Damn me for wanting coherent writing.
"You can't have seen many big budget films if you call Rey the worst lead you've ever seen."
The only other one I have seen that came close was Dom torrito in Fast and Furious. But I still think rey is worse. At least Dom does not overshadow previous characters and (and I can't believe I am saying this) Vin Diesel acting the part better. Daisy was way too self aware and gave all kinds of weird facial expressions and always had the 'eyes wide, mouth a gap' look when she didn't look weird. God it was a really cringe worthy performance.
...
I know this is just a sarcastic attempt to make Rey Mary Sue critics look stupid (and all you 'criticisms' of finn can simply be chucked up to bad writing, which if that is your defense for why Rey is not a mary sue it is rather poor; like basically Saying 'TFA is just crap writing so Rey is not a Mary Sue'.) But I wanted to focus on one thing you said:
"just like how Rey already knows how to fight with a staff since she has defended herself on Jakku for years."
I have seen this argument for why Rey is hyper competent with weapon fighting and I fail to see where the movie actually showed this. I mean as far as I could tell Jakuu was far less dangerous than Tatooine. I did not see a lot of fighting going on until BB-8 showed up. In fact, though impoverished, it looked like the settlement was relatively peaceful. Now yes Rey cared around a staff must of the time. But that does not really mean anything. In a lot of African and middle east countries everyone cares around AK's and they can't shot for crap. We do see her fight the 2 thugs but really she does nothing more than smack at them with the staff. i did not really see anything to demonstrate hyper proficiency in weaponry. However when she picks up a pistol and a lightsaber that the film states she never used before she immediately becomes unbelievable proficient.
I get the sense that simply by caring the staff a lot of you just assumed that meant she could fight. This is a bad assumption and a failing on the film to give good backstory to the character. I wished they would have shown her in some fighting pit for food or money type deal; then I would accept her being a bad ass fighter; than combined with learning force powers I could even see her beating Kylo. But the film does not give this.
"Because she was the focus of a renewed sense of wonder about the mysteries of the force. "
This makes sense. It is easy to like a character when you only care about the sense of wonder you feel at the cinema. For people like me that is not enough. We need story building and character development to be invested. This is why i do not like the transformer movies because they are all about the spectacle and they do not really care about story.
"Her faults and her virtues were both relateable and appealing."
What faults? honestly how to find a character that overcomes all challenges immediately and without difficulty relateable? either you are a crazy capable person that should be president of the world or you just had you wish fulfillment satisfied by the character. I am going with the later.
"Plus her origin and her destiny are enigmas ripe for expanding on in the next two movies, at least."
We know nothing about her origin. This is why there are dozens of theories all with 'evidence' of her origin. We only know she is with Luke that really does not tell us her destiny. Some, like me, hope her hyper competence with the force leads her to megalomania and she becomes evil. I really think this is the only interesting route they can take with her. But the 'pc' feminist agenda they seem to be pushing tells me there is no way that would happen.
"Because I'm not baggaged with an agenda or feel the need to promote a counter-agenda, I can have an authentic experience while watching Rey and her new friend's trials and exploits."
I do not have baggage about it, I went in with nothing. No expectations. I walked away from probably the big budget film I have ever seen with arguably the worst character lead I have ever seen. the only agenda I have is pushing for competent story telling. It is you Rey defenders that seem to have an agenda and serious PT baggage.
"Why does Rey have to be related to someone important??!!! Because the main films are called the Skywalker Saga. If the Skywalker are not the focus, then it's a spin-off, which the episode films aren't."
I'll say it again, KYLO IS ALREADY THE SKYWALKER; does every main character need to be one? Obi-wan was not a skywalker, Han was not, Qui-gon was not, yoda was not, Lando was not, Finn and Poe are not. In the PT only Anakin was a main character was a skywalker. In the OT we did not find out about Leia until the last (and it did not help the narrative).
"Rey is a Skywalker."
What if she is not? what if she is a Jinn; Kenobi; Palpatine; or any of the other ridiculous theories I have heard? what if she is not even the main character and it is actually supposed to be Kylo? And if she IS a Skywalker why keep it a secret because ultimately it is too simple and predictable to be a satisfying mystery?
" Obama was a statesman, a community organizer, a smooth black man widely admired over the world"
Oh I agree with this, well not the last part (only Muslim nations and weak PC European nations loved him many allies such as Israel, Poland, Britain and a lot of Eastern Europe countries saw him as weak backstabbing and ineffectual). But he was a charismatic and highly polished speaker. He gave the impression of being great statesman for sure. but the political double talk and Anti-American policy lead directly to Trumps election. Trump is a reaction to the Obama years.
"Trump is an utter boob."
Not disagreeing. I may have voted for him but so far I am mostly disappointed with his lack of clear policy and ineffectual implementation of his 'promises'. But I do like some of what he has done.
"I'm not sure HRC is guilty of anything, but the right wing believes whatever garbage is thrown in front of them."
Well the multiple lies before congress in addition obstruction and destruction of evidence is actual known to have like really happened. now to what degree she directly involved is questionable at best though it still would be a accomplice. Even if this did not warrant jail time; which for a service member it would have and she would have been the commander and chief; it still should have disqualified her from running. Now I may not like trump very much but the thought that it could have been her makes me a lot more forgiving.
"People are rightly outraged by those who continue to endorse this sort of thinking."
Okay now you are starting to go into liberal lala land. I do have to time or patients to explain away why your thoughts are riddled with liberal/left wing talking points but I would highly encourage you to read some actual books on American history, economics, the age of enlightenment, the birth of science, and what the conservatives actually stand for. Also do not conflate all the right with conservatives. I try not to do so with liberals
thanks for the encouragement. I don't know though, there are seemingly so many problem children posting here and I have a hard time letting it go when someone says something stupid. Most of the 'good' posters are smarter than me and do not even engage the problem children. I do not think I have the right temperament for this site. IMDb was a little different because for every 2 annoying stupid posters there was at least 1 that would either 'help' you out or have an actual reasonable disagreement. I like reasonable disagreement I can actual learn something.
this is a good analogy.
I am disappointed there does not seem to be any neurological or psychological studies on this subject that I can find.
In terms of neurological reaction I am curious as to the way the brain reacts to these stimuli and why (if it does) it reacts differently for different people. Like for some people their brains will 'light up' when seeing magic tricks because the spectacle will stimulate. for me I am far more stimulated by trying to figure out how they did it and not so much the spectacle itself.
"Better question: Why do you keep harping on Rey and questioning others' opinions on her after most likely an entire LIFETIME of giving a pass to similarly competent male characters?"
Ah yes deflect instead of trying to answer. I am not questioning others' opinions I am asking the reason for their opinion. No one including you now has given me a good answer on why they like the character. And not true on the male character false accusation. I was extremely critical of Dom torrito in the fast and Furious films for years; but Rey is far worse as far as I can see. so want to remove that false accusation of sexism you just tried suggesting?
"She and Poe are VERY similar: Both competent and confident, both were paired with Finn and had to show Finn the ropes as well as put up with his panic, both were at one point captured by Kylo, and both escaped."
BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN POE AND REY. Very simple POE WAS GIVEN THE BACKGROUND of the BEST PILOT in the resistance. and ALL HE DOES IS FLY GOOD IN THE FILM. This is in no way comparable to Rey's complete lack of background combined with hyper competence in every field she applies in every instance of the film. I mean honestly they are in no way similar outside the 2 similarities you point out. This is like me saying Kylo and Rey are very similar because they both use the force and both have scenes with Han.
"Sounds like Poe is a Marty Stu you should be complaining about.... Yet I only hear crickets.'
I didn't like Poe either. His piloting skills were comical they were so overblown. But the film did not give him the spotlight stealing attention they gave Rey. Poe doesn't use the jedi mind trick a few hours after learning the force was real; Poe doesn't one on one saber duel Kylo Ren and win; Poe doesn't stunt pilot the falcoln 2 seconds after not being able to take off in it (which this is really Poe that should have been flying the falcoln); Poe doesn't repair the falcoln faster than Han or R2 ever did.
"Poverty ISN'T nearly eliminated in the west. A lot of the wealth we had was also a debt bubble, which popped in 2008-2009 and caused a huge increase in poverty."
How many people that live in the US poverty level own more than one car and have a flat screen TV? quite a few.
"If those U.S. products were only produced in the U.S. by paying good wages instead of cheap foreign wages, then the products would be FAR more expensive."
if they got rid of the minimum wage completely in the US the production could take place here and the cost of production would plummet leading the prices to drop. Everyone complains about their wages being to low. that is not the real problem. The problem is the cost of everything is too high. A big part of the cost of production is paying the employee wages; which is why many manufactures move out of the US to produce.
Do not get me wrong. Capitalism is not perfect. It is mean and unforgiving; even to those that work hard sometimes fail if not careful. But it is far better than any other system human's have ever thought of. If you think of something better I will be there with you trying to push it forward. Socialism is not better it cripples economies. Venezuela has one of the highest GDP per capita in the world and the people are eating dogs and don't have toilet paper. This is less than 20 years ever they began socialism practices.
"I see no reason that Rey is not related to Luke Skywalker."
We already have Kylo related to Luke. Does every character have to be related? Can no one stand on their own.