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At their core, Dean wants to hunt with Sam and to some extent his extended family (John and Bobby, now Cas and Mary) until the end. Sam wants to hunt with Dean until they end the supernatural and can retire to normal lives. As for being Generals goes, Sam can be more detached and can accept losses better then Dean. Dean was devastated by John's sacrifice up until he was able to pass that on to resurrect Sam. Jo's death hurt him so bad that she was called as a witness against him in the Osiris trail. Bobby's death turned him into an alcoholic Captain Ahab obsessed with killing Dick Roman. Kevin's death caused him to send himself into exile and Charlie's caused him to go Man on Fire on the Stynes. Sam's worst death was Jessica and that affected him through out Kripke's story. That detachment would make Sam a better General in a war type situation where he had to choose who would live and who would die.
When I say John Connor type, I would say that Sam would go farther then Bobby. He would still do the Bobby stuff with lore and cover stories but he would take it further. He would assemble groups send them on missions manage training and take on a General type role.
And I never said the John Connor thing would be better then what Sam and Dean do now. I thought it would be an interesting idea of whether or not that would be a good thing to do. Yes it's a lot like they tried in Season 12 again but like in a fun house mirror. The question was is it better to organize and have a chance to kill all things supernatural knowing you are responsible for good people dying or is it better to take it all on yourself knowing that you will never truly be able to end the monsters. I wanted to see the good and bad of both methods in trying to rid the world of the supernatural. In this scenario, neither side would be right or wrong it would explore it without either being the villain. Sam and Dean would still hunt and be bad asses but the organization would also have successes.
I'm saying that generally Dean has tried to get people out of hunting on multiple occasions. In Sin City he told Richie to stay out of hunting. He tried to get Krissy and her father out of hunting. He tried to steer Claire away from it and he told Rudy he wasn't cut out for the life either. Sam on the other hand has brought people into the line of fire. He said he would try to get some hunters to help clear out Chicago in Bloodlines and brought in Charlie for the Mark of Cain. Dean hasn't really done that until The Chitters where he tried to recruit the two hunters. I thought that was progress until they put Dean in the corner in Season 12.
As for Bobby and Garth, they helped out hunters with lore and cover stor help more then directing everyone where to go (not saying they didn't do that from time to time). It's different from finding a hunt, telling a hunter how to kill it then sending them on there way.
Rudy is actually a pretty good example. Going by the dialog he called Sam and Dean for at least three hunts. Mark of Cain Dean told Rudy they bailed him out and told him to leave the current hunt because he couldn't handle it. As for Sam, I'm not saying he sits in the Bunker. He would still be going out with Dean. He would be managing hunts much like Bobby either from the bunker or by cell phones when hunting. I personally think Dean is ok with Sam going on hunts with him because he knows whatever happens to Sam he will somehow be able to save him by sacrificing his life. He can only really do that with one person and there is a narrow list of people that can survive long term (we are talking Bobby level).
I know we are starting to get into an almost fan fiction type area but...I think Dean understands people need to hunt and knows he can't and shouldn't stop them. Again, I started thinking about this in season eight. My thinking is that Sam would actually start sending people on hunts and some of them would be friends (Jodi, or at the time Garth, Charlie...etc). The friends would be doing it because they love Sam and Dean and would want to help. I don't believe Dean would like people going on hunts in his name or to be personally responsible for sending people on hunts he wasn't involved in. At the time, I was thinking it would be about Dean being able to accept help and understand it was their choice. Also, for him to be less devastated when they inevitably died.
"Not sure I like that storyline, because unless I'm reading you wrong, Dean sounds antiquated and out of touch while Sam is the big leader who takes over and is right. Besides, that's not who Dean is - he's always been willing to work and play with others outside of Sam."
What I was thinking was Dean being sick of seeing his friends die and deciding to take out the monsters without them. Sam and Dean would go from hunt to hunt like the Ghoul/Wraith/Siren trifecta. The only conflict would be Sam thinking the only way to end monsters was with an army and Dean thinking they could do it on their own. As for being Generals, Sam strikes me as someone that understands sending Hunters out will get some killed but it is unavoidable. Dean strikes me as someone who is unwilling to put anyone in a position where someone could die particularly if he is not personally there to keep that from happening. Or more like Dean is a front line in the fight General while Sam is a General who orchestrates all the battles from a command bunker.
P.S- Since season 8 I've wanted to see a storyline which is kind of where I see this headed in a fun house mirror sort of way. I saw Sam as a John Connor type down in the bunker sending Hunters out on missions, you could say a general. I saw Dean wanting the exact opposite where he didn't want anyone hunting except him and Sam since he didn't want anyone to die. Sam taking the practical approach of the only way to end the monsters was with an army which would result in casualties. Dean would take the approach that no one had to die and Sam and Dean could do it themselves. Dean would get the kills but Sam's way would be more effective. I think Dabb's version next year will be Sam is the General of an army but somehow manages to kill all the monsters by himself (maybe with Mary).
"Seriously WRT that horrible speech! And how many hunters did Sam get killed on that raid anyway?"
All of them except Jodi and Walt and considering Walt's history with Sam, and that his partner of at least 8 years died, he shouldn't exactly be spreading the gospel of Sam (though with Dabb I'm sure he will).
Exactly, and if they started them young enough it could go on for 10 years. But if it was cancelled early and ended on a cliffhanger it could be resolved in the main show.
I had several scenario's but after you originally posted it I think this is the best option. They have already had a great young Sam that was on for several years and they got a really good young Dean in about a boy. If they could find two new versions the show could work. As an added bonus they could work in a pilot episode or some spin off eps into the season. J2 would only have to work a day to bookend it and the story would still be all about Sam and Dean.
What makes this even sadder is that Dabb is screwing over real people and not just fictional characters. Mark is deservedly loved for all the time he has put into the conventions and his interactions with the fans. Rowena wasn't popular at first but Ruth really won people over. How they got rid of both was horrible and completely mishandled. Now Mark is cutting all ties and this has all become real. Real people getting screwed over and no one is stepping in to defend them or punish those that caused it.
Been thinking about this a lot since this morning. It seems like Angels are aware of other realities and when time changes (The End, French Mistake, Heart will go on). What if the Alt verse is just another Angel manipulation to get a Sam and Dean. Azazel's plan was always to open the Hell Gate so in Alt verse that still happened. To raise Lucifer he would still need a righteous man. Without a righteous man they couldn't raise Lucifer and it would look like the season finale. So the Angels send back a Cupid to ensure that John and Mary fall in love. That creates the two perfect Michael and Lucifer vessels. Now that Dean exists they can send him back in time to cement the timeline and universe they wanted for the Michael and Lucifer showdown.
Yeah, I never factored the time travel thing. You are right, if Dean didn't go back in time then Azazel would never have offered the deal to Mary in the first place. So in that scenario, John and Mary would still be brought together by a cupid. Since Dean did not go back in time, Azazel did not kill John meaning that John and Mary ran away together and had Dean. Which means Dean existed to go back in time for Azazel to kill John......Paradox....this is why Time travel is maddening.
Well, in Sam and Dean's universe, they were able to undo all of Heaven and Hell's plans. It is possible in the Alt-verse that Mary was able to do the same with choosing to let John die. It seemed like heaven was all in on the Dean and Sam fight so it was kind of all or nothing. If you are into quantum theory and parallel universes at all there is speculation that whenever there are multiple choices a new universe is created to support every outcome. Going by that there would have to be two universes, one where Mary said yes and one where she said no.
It can be explained pretty simply depending on how far you want to go with it. If things went basically the same way then which ever psychic kid won the contest would open the Hellgate. The gate remaining open would unleash Lilith and the rest of hell onto the world. That would wipe out the majority of the world and would look like what was shown in the finale. From that point, the Angels could have reentered the world just to fight the chaos.
Now if they wanted to go further with the story line, Azazel could have found another righteous man to break the first seal and that person wouldn't have to be Michael's vessel. Everything would go plan B and the psychic kid would be Lucifer's vessel and the Angels could resurrect John for Michael's vessel. In the world we saw, you would have to say Lucifer won the battle as it was suppose to result in a paradise for the human survivors. I lean to the first scenario with Lilith unleashed and Lucifer in the cage.
I think the question should be is Supernatural killing all of their characters needlessly. The answer to that question is absolutely yes. It isn't really a surprise any more when new characters die quickly especially now. What a number of people feel is the waste of potential particularly with Eileen and Mick. Apparently, TPTB knew they were doing a culling at the end of the year anyway with Crowley and Rowena which brings up the main problem with how they fill the time when J2 are off. Dabb arrogantly thinks he can just spin off Jodi and Claire and everyone will be on board. This is the funniest part since Dabb was responsible for Bloodlines and all the hate that followed from that attempt. They needed to build characters that fans liked. They had that with Eileen and Mick and they blew it. It is literally all or nothing with Wayward Daughters now since no one is going to believe any new characters introduced will last long and its hard to get invested in characters you know are going to be thrill killed in a couple of episodes.
I was really against short seasons until I did the math. Netflix just released season 12 and this was the first year I haven't binge watched the entire season. Of 23 episodes there are only 5 I liked and would watch regularly. 2 Glynn episodes and 3 Yockey and even twigs and twine half annoys me with the Ketch and Mary drama. I couldn't bare to watch the rest and doubt I will in the future. So if J2 had more control and the budget was raised for location shoots and J2 are in every scene then even 6 episodes would be better then the 4 1/2 episodes I liked in a full year of season 12.
They started talking about this generally last year. Jensen said J2 and M2 talked about how long they felt the show would go on and how they had worked with some crew for 11 years. Then everyone started talking about 300 and how that might be the end but went on to assure everyone it was just a milestone. Then at conventions they started floating movies and 8 episode seasons when Stranger things took off. Then at Jibcon J2 both floated 6 eps.
To me, as the season progressed and after the Mark S. fiasco they have been cutting down expectations more and more. It looks like 13 is going to be a desperate push for a spin off so Jensen is probably looking down the road. Jobs like Supernatural aren't just lying around and just about every tv show made is coming back (like X Files). If they go to Mini-seasons then Jensen could schedule director time and maybe even get an executive producer role for approval of story lines. He could finally do some of those Grand Canyon shoots he wants. If he had that power then we could have a decent wrap up when the show really ends and not with what ever garbage Dabb and crew throw on the screen when it is over at the CW.
Might be, there seems to be a lot of drama right now and real negativity among the fans. They really seem to love their characters and may honestly want to go on for years just not at 23 episodes a pop.
It's on his twitter feed @andrewdabb. He responded to Berens and some of the hate in general he tweeted "This seems like it's bad for the show... so much anger... so much need to hurt...". I'm not great with twitter but apparently Dabb has gotten a lot of negative tweets sent to him. Well deserved IMO.