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Let me add a correction. I just checked. Wrath of Khan occurs 18 years after Space See. So our shockwave has a 17 light year radius.
Yes they did.
A troll would not be debating you.
Exactly how powerful would the shockwave of an exploding planet be 20 to 25 years after the fact? Amid all the other electromagnetic radiation impinging on it? You say a 100' wave. I would say more like a 2' swell, if that.
They were not terraforming. They were looking for a planet to test the genesis device on. While the end result was supposed to be a habitable planet, the technique is several orders of magnitude beyond standard terraforming. (To pull information from other Star Trek series, even in TNG's time terraforming is a decades long process. Genesis works in a matter of hours.)
Please tell me what resources we have to detect the shockwave of an exploding planet years after the fact and 20 - 25 light years away. And that we would know what it signified.
So, Reliant's sensors would collect this data point, as well as all the other data points before and after that point. The computers would need to render it and log it and the crew would have to notice it. All for something they are not looking for.
The crew has numerous duties. Reliant is not the size of Enterprise and is unlikely to have a large crew of science officers available. That and all other data points they are recording.
Now, as I have said previously, when they arrived they should have noticed that a planet was missing. But would they have cared. They had a mission, to determine if Ceti Alpha 4 was suitable to the Genesis experiment. They did not know they were landing on Ceti Alpha 5. Chekov didn't remember. What sparked h is memory was Botany Bay.
My main argument with you is you believe that any of these ships have immense resources for scanning and correlating data, that those resources are in constant operation, and that the crew has the time or inclination to pay attention to every bit of data that is collected.
I say that any pseudo-military ship (and despite the various shows claims that Star Fleet isn't military) will be concentrating on their missions. Even realizing that a planet was missing, they would be responsible for completing their mission; evaluation of Ceti Alpha 4.
Ok, I don't think I'm moving goal posts, you are. You first claimed that the ship (Reliant, I believe) would have seen the shockwave. (Yes, I misspoke on event horizon.) You then proceeded to go on that the Federation would already know that the planet had exploded. (It was Ceti Alpha 4 that exploded, btw. Khan and his people had been put on Ceti Alpha 5. Which is why Chekov thought they were on Ceti Alpha 4 and why he protested that there was life on Ceti Alpha 5.) You have proceeded to claim that all stars the Federation had visited would be under constant surveillance. (You even implied that is what is happening today, everything automatic).
So, Ceti Alpha 4 exploded 6 months after Khan and his people landed. Khan tells us this. So the shockwave has been expanding in a spherical ball for most of 20 to 25 years. The light portion of that at light speed. The material components at a much slower speed and would likely be pulled back into the gravity well of Ceti Alpha or one of its planets. Even material that wasn't would be in expanding in a gigantic sphere.
Lets assume Reliant (or its computers and sensors) would be paying attention only to Ceti Alpha as it travels there. It is moving at light speed. Reliant is not. It is moving at warp speed. Assuming a likely travel of Warp 4 to Warp 5, that would be 64 to 125 times the speed of light. (That is according to most Star Trek references. I have problems with those numbers, but we'll use them for now.)
Reliant would pass the light shock wave moving at that extreme speed, as it would all other spheres of expanding from the Ceti Alpha system. They would also be seeing expanding light spheres from multiple other systems. Lets restrict that to only those along the line of flight.
Now, Reliant would not have any particular reason to believe that anything like an exploding planet had occurred in the Ceti Alpha system. So they wouldn't be looking for it.
Continued next post.
I said I wouldn't reply, but please, regale us with exactly what is happening with every single star in the sky. In real time please. And what changes and when.
The fact is it is not happening. We know many things, but not nearly everything. You cannot tell me how many planets are in orbit around every star. You cannot tell me their properties. You cannot KNOW from second to second what is changing.
You are not omniscient. Neither is any human being. Most astronomers are going to realize all the things they do not now and cannot yet determine.
this is going no where. You honest think that EVERY object in the sky is under constant observation and that we will see every that happens and no what it is. Sorry, not believable.
You say Chekov's ship had to cross the event horizon of the Ceti Alpha planets destruction and so must of known about it. Of course that means they are evaluating a constant stream of data and feeding it to the crew. I can certainly imagine the bridge with a computer in constant recitation of events, probably several at once, and the crew is going to be able to pick out data.
Tell me, in the constant observation you mention, how is the data evaluated. How fast. Everyone there is instantly told absolutely everything and they keep all that data in their minds?
I'm sorry. I won't be replying again. You have this weird imagine in your minds that humans and their machines are perfect, omniscient with infinite capacity to absorb information.
Wrath of Khan is not perfect. But it is easily the best of the Star Trek films. What few issues it has can be overlooked as the inevitable tiny contradictions that occur in any story, fiction or non-fiction.
ok, I see the problem. You are suffering from the delusion that a ship traveling in Federation space is monitoring every possible energy wave, correlating that information, feeding that into some database and informing the crew. That is simply not going to happen. No one does this now or then. If that were the case, the crew would be overwhelmed.
I know it must be a shock to you, but information acquisition is not total. It is not omniscient. Computers and people do not have instant access to everything.
You have a view of the world that knowledge is perfect, everyone has instant access to every fact, any possible event that might impinge on a mission is known in advance and that no errors are ever made. That is simply naive.
Chekov was there twice. When Khan and his people were let off and when they went to survey it for Genesis. From everything we are told in the movie, no one visited that system in that interval. Therefore, unless there is a visual station within that 25 light years, Star Fleet has no knowledge of the destruction of the planet. The only history Star Fleet would have would be the Enterprise dropped off Khan and his followers there. It is quite likely that entire situation is classified. You wouldn't want people going there. (I certainly would classify it.)
Yes, as I said above, he should have remembered Khan was there, but he didn't. Since it seems he wasn't a bridge officer, he may never have known how many planets were the system. The ship should have noted the system was missing a planet. But if the original "mission" there is classified, then there may not even be a record of the system in the Star Fleet databases other than its designation of Ceti Alpha.
And one covert, classified operation not have awareness of another classified operation is quite believable.
And since the sight is restricting the length of posts I'll add:
Even if it had been detected and a determination made, is it a high priority item that every ship in the Fleet is informed? Is it urgent? Likely it may be on some ship's itinerary to investigate; but not Chekov's. That ship is on a classified mission. The bureaucracy that would be assigning such investigations wouldn't be in the chain of command for classified missions. They would have no idea Chekov's ship was scheduled to go to Ceti Alpha.
Ok, you're probably not getting my point. Ceti Alpha was a charted system. The ship Chekov was on (I don't recall its name at the moment) was looking for suitable planet to test the Genesis device on. That is the only reason it went there. It is implied that it isn't the first system they've looked at, nor was it supposed to be the last.
It is possible that Star Fleet has an automatic watch on every system it has ever charted, all how many thousands of them. The fact remains, unless some FTL phenomena is generated those systems are limited to light speed calculations.
Today, extra-solar planets are detected by various criteria, but not by visual observation of a planet. Occultation, gravitational effects and so forth. But we don't have an eye on every star in the sky, or even a tiny percentage. Its a hit and miss proposition.
Which would effect your mention of the detection of bodies in the 19th century by pertubation of orbits. That is still a light speed observation. How long has it been between Wrath of Khan and the end of the Original Series? Ten years? Fifteen? Lets be generous and say 25. If the observation station is not within 25 light years of Ceti Alpha, no visual observation could reveal the destruction of Ceti Alpha Four. (or was it Five. I don't recall).
From your post. "In another 50 years there will be next to nothing happening within a few thousand lightyears of earth that we won't be aware of as it happens." You are incorrect. IF we can observe all stars within a few thousand light years and can update it quickly, we will no what is happening between 5 and a few thousand years ago as it happened then, not as it is happening now. Speed of Light.
Probably because no one has visited the Ceti Alpha system since Khan and his people were left there. The didn't have any advanced technology to send a message. If the planet explodes and the Federation has technology sophisticated enough to see it, they still wouldn't until the light from Ceti Alpha reaches someplace that is looking in that direction at the right time to see it.
Personally, I doubt the Federation keeps telescopic eyes on every system ever visited.
Now, Chekov should have realized. But it has been years since the events of Space Seed. (We have to assume Chekov was on the Enterprise, though not yet a bridge officer since Khan recognizes him.) But having been years, it might not occur to him to check out the number of planets and their positions. Careless, yes, but also possible.
Exactly. This isn't a case where Peter (and the others) came back 5 years later and are now 5 years older. Peter doesn't have the body, or experience, of a 21 year old. He is still 16, as are his friends who were also snapped.
Definitely. We live in the Great Plains. My Grandmother visited relatives in New York in the 60's and people were asking her how she dealt with Indian attacks and having to use a wood stove. And wasn't she pleased to get to use a modern stove.
She took great pleasure telling them her stove at home was 10 years newer than theirs and had far more features.
and on and on and on.
I was tired of the earth will end tomorrow the first time I saw someone carrying one 50 years ago. And it wasn't a new movement. Everything you say has been said thousands of times. Its boring and pessimistic and has no basis.
Yes, the earth existed for billions of years before us and probably will for billions of years after us. But we can only realistically work in smaller numbers of years. And I prefer to be optimistic try to solve actual problems.
Again, people have been saying that for hundreds of years. I see no reason it is any closer than it was then. That is, not at all.
I didn't mean to sound so serious. But to me the characters didn't look anywhere close to 30. I saw them in the 18-22 age range. Some where older, but the average is where I saw them.
Been hearing that for a couple of centuries now. Nothing new.
Ah yes. Someone is suffering somewhere so we must not do anything entertaining and frivolous or we are horrible contemptible people. Well, someone is suffering somewhere all the time, always have and always will. And people are quite capable of doing multiple things at once. (No, I don't mean in the same second. But I can go to work, go shopping, donate to charities, volunteer for various projects and watch a light super hero movie.)
As for FTL, Faster than light travel is a common trope in science fiction. It is explained in various ways (none of which is likely to work, but it is SF). And we do not of several ftl phenomena. Many believe Gravity is an FTL phenomena. Quantum entanglement seems to be as well.
Being able to move at FTL speed implies nothing about a character's abilities.
And if you think this is a cartoon (and by your standards all super hero movies, as well as all SF, Fantasy and Horror would be) then why are you watching?
That is subsumed under literally.