Why is this franchise so insistent about redeeming awful people?


This isn't a sequels thing, so if that's all you're going to bring to the table you can fuck right off. This has been going on for YEARS in comics, books, and games.

Mara Jade, Revan - hell there are multiple characters in Knights of the Republic alone they pull that shit with - Vader, Kylo Ren, the main character of those Force Unleashed games, and tons of other characters.

I hate that shit. I hated it when they did it with Vader and I hated it when they did it with Ren. They were GOOD villains. I hated them. I was supposed to hate them. The creators and actors did a good job of making me dislike them. Why? Well, they are psychopaths, mass murderers, and generally mean people. I fucking hate that this franchise tries to tell me to forgive them. It's trope this franchise has been using for decades. Right up there with big planet killing weapons.

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I would add that not only do the people who write this stuff do it, there's a new wave of fans that feed of it; and they do it in reverse too. Take the guy who said Leia should have fallen to the Dark Side and had a kid (Rey) with Palpatine. And I can't tell you how many comments I have seen on Twitter that people wanted to see "Dark Rey". There's no basis for stuff like this. Never any indication whatsoever that Leia or Rey are even remotely evil. Something has to make sense in a story. There has to be a reason for it. And there's a whole chunk of fans out there that just want to watch bad characters turn good and good turn bad just for the sake of it. It's something that plagues the franchise right now.

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You might like the Middle Earth franchise better, characters who turn evil turn out to be irredeemable (Gollum, Denethor, Saruman, etc)

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Why did you bother replying?

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Just trying to help you out.

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Maybe this is semantics, but I think the tragedy of those characters you cited was that they were redeemable, but each chose not to listen to reason. Gollum makes some amount of progress from Frodo's influence, but backslides. Saruman is given chance after chance by Gandalf to return to his former righteousness - Saruman refuses - and Denethor, too, is plead with by Pippin and Gandalf to come back from the brink. He does not.

The same franchise, remember, gives us Boromir, who succumbs to evil's beckoning, but does try to amend himself. Frodo himself winds up giving in and coming back from that, too.

Tolkien even mentioned this concept in his letters, refusing to call orcs "irredeemably bad" because the concept doesn't mesh with the philosophies of the world of Arda.

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[deleted]

Looks like people change after all 😎

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How often do mass murders do an about face or good people just randomly turn evil (without motive)?

The Vader thing is a one-off. There's a LOT of people who don't like it - myself included - but it's not an issue because he had a motive. Totally selfish, but he had one.

But not only does it show a lack of creativity and originality when you continue to do it, more often than not, these repeat examples of it often have no merit to them - and the fans feed it.

People who thought it "would be better/more interesting" to have Rey turn. Like, what? There is NO precedent for it. Rey is not evil. AT. ALL. What's the rationale for having her fight Ben and/or Palpatine - as a hero - and then suddenly turn bad?! What's the point of that?! THere's no one to cheer for or invest in in that fight. That's just one example, but the franchise is littered with it.

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Whether they turn good, or turn bad, or just grow up and learn new things that changes how they think and act, people change.

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"People change, therfore any and all change is logical and believable" is logical fallacy.

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Unless it’s Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi, right? 😜

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That actually fits with Luke's personality when you look at the 4 other movies he's in, but I don't think you really give a shit about legitimate conversation. You're more interested in one-line responses that add nothing to thee conversation.

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So Luke goes out of his way to redeem his father who's one of the biggest mass-murderers in the galaxy, but freaks out when he thinks his nephew might be dabbling in the dark side? 🤔 Yeah, that totally fits Luke's personality.

I don't always need entire paragraphs to make valid points.

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Vader wasn't so bad. A little throttle-y maybe but the guy just liked things being done right...

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Redemption is one of the most powerful stories that we as humans tell. I think it's primal because we all know that we will all need forgiveness, even if it's not for blowing up a planet or trying to impose tyranny on the galaxy. But, sooner or later, we all need to learn how to say "I'm sorry", as well as how to say, "I forgive you."

Philosophically, I think it's important, too, and I think now more than ever we seem to need the message that people can change, make amends, and come back from the darkness they've allowed into their lives that controls them. We live in an era of cancel culture, where it seems like too many people are just ready to say, "You had your chance. One chance. You blew it. Goodbye forever." I don't think like that.

We see this in a lot of religious thought - unless it's warped by psychopaths and narcissists - where we get teachings about forgiving "70 x 7 times" (not meaning literally 490 times, of course, but just saying "keep forgiving") and where we get ideas about reincarnation to atone for life-crimes.

Does Star Wars go to this well too often? I don't know. Not for me. At least, the reason I dislike the ST has nothing to do with the redemption arcs it gives us. There's no main "redemption arc" in the PT and I don't like those films, either; so, basically, it doesn't seem to be altering my enjoyment (or lack thereof) of these movies.

Frankly, generally, I think Hollywood (and a lot of other story-factories) tell too many stories of "Bad guy is unforgivable and must die!" as though that's the only way to resolve a story. Sometimes it is, and those can be great stories, but I do like when storytellers explore the ideas of salvation over damnation.

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You cannot tell me the franchise doesn't do it too much. It's something that has been repeated, along with big super weapons, over-and-over since the original trilogy. Vader, Kylo Ren, Mara Jade, almost the entire cast of KOTOR. There's tons of examples of ot: https://screenrant.com/star-wars-dark-side-users-redeemed-themselves/. I am a huge fan, but t's cliche and a crutch the franchise constantly comes back to.

Why are you so concerned with salvation of awful people? And I'm not talking about people like Han or Lando. Vader and Ren are mass murderers. What about that type of person triggers your brain to say, Oh, I do hope they get another chance."? And how do you enjoy a story when you are actively rooting for the antagonist to do a 180? Stories need antagonists just as much as protagonists.

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Maybe it's because I don't seem to have consumed as much of the franchise as you have. I haven't read most of the Star Wars books, I haven't played most of the Star Wars games, so while I'm aware of Vader, Ren, and Mara Jade, I'm not really aware of KOTOR.

Some of this, though, is because it is one of my all-time favourite themes of mythology. The stories we tell are full of this sort of thing.

I am concerned with redemption as a theme because it can be powerful. Think about Robert De Niro in The Mission. Actually, we needn't consider fiction, but we can go to real life. Daryl Davis is an amazing man who has befriended and brought back dozens of people from the KKK. These Ku Klux Klan members are not banal evil, or small-fries, but people who participate - sometimes lead - one of the most heinous movements in the history of mankind. But they are being brought out of their hate. I want those people to have room to return. When we tell stories like the redemption of Darth Vader, that's part of it.

This is perhaps our most important story: that of redemption. I think it's why we tell it so often.

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I HAVEN'T read most of the old books either, that's the funny part - and I still know of the massive amount of times this trope has been used.

I don't know why you are rambling Daryl Davis (who?) and the KKK. I love the franchise, but Star Wars isn't saving society. It's fluff. It's EXTREMELY misguided to draw that connection. And even if I humor you and accept this insane comparison between a fictional mass murderer and KKK members - HE. IS. A. MASS. MURDERER. The average Klansman hasn't even killed someone, let alone has killed 100s if not 1000s. This is not a valid comparison, my man.

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My main point was that redemption stories are imperatives for us as people. I happen to like them, so I don't mind a bunch of them. I think the world is short on forgiveness and long on revenge and I think having our cultural narratives encourage such nobility is a fine thing, indeed.

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We're talking about a couple of mass murderers and you are preaching forgiveness. Come on. We're not talking about someone who made a few mistakes.

I do appreciate the conversation though. The first couple of idiots were just trolling. You actually want to talk.

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I appreciate the conversation, too. Sorry about the post's length, but there was a lot I tried to get on the table here so you know where I'm coming from.

There are a lot of avenues to my thoughts about forgiveness and reconciliation. They're as complicated as any deep, philosophical concept can be - particularly one that is believed in, as is the case here with me.

I'm going to start by assuming, and to some extent, inferring, that you believe in redemption, just perhaps not to the Nth degree. I'll try to broad-strokes some of my thoughts on this subject, but please give me a bit of grace here because - as I say - it's a complicated thing and quick summations are liable to lose nuance; I'm more than likely to misspeak (mis-type?) here. So, please bear with me.

First, I think there are two main areas we're discussing: real life and fiction. Redemption applies to both, in terms of story or necessary aspect of life. But they aren't going to be the same. What works on the page or screen won't work in real life. In real life, Darth Vader probably wouldn't have a change of heart at all, likely would be unable or unwilling to seek reconciliation, and shouldn't be forgiven. By the same token, people like Lando or Han would be harder to forgive in real life, too. Han was a drug-runner for a nasty mobster. In real life, this guy would basically be a meth distributor at best, if not an actual pirate who would have murdered many people and ruined many more lives. Lando was, basically, Vichy French - collaborating with the Nazis and looking the other way to save his own skin and bank balance.

In real life, they aren't easy to forgive, either, although certainly more than Vader who would be Third Reich inner circle.

So, who gets forgiveness? At a fundamental level, and the reason why I think redemption stories - especially ones of the bleakest kind - are necessary, I think everyone needs to get a shot at coming back from their hellish, shadow-selves. On a practical level, that might be impossible. To put it another way, I don't think Charles Manson was salvageable; I think that was a messed-up lost cause. But, if somebody wanted to try, I would have said, "Go ahead and try".

That doesn't mean I'd necessarily release Manson from prison, either. If somebody embezzles my money, I would hope I would come to forgive that person (assuming they're truly seeking forgiveness and trying to be a good person), but that doesn't mean I'd hire them to be my accountant.

Speaking of accounting, that doesn't mean that no punishments should be meted out either. Part of forgiveness and reconciliation must include making good or whole what was broken, to the extent that it could be.

In summation, I think that the fundamental principle is an imperative of humanity. I think that people need to have second chances. I don't think that lets them off the hook, as it were. I would be dubious about certain people (like mass murderers) being able to stop being such heinous psychopaths, but I'd have to try. The principle of it is important.

Bringing it back to Star Wars, I think that's the reason why I like redemption arcs, is because they are important narratives to tell so that we as a society will not just "cancel" people with no hope of forgiveness, but rather we will attempt to rehabilitate and reconcile with those who have done us wrong - in some ways, especially the people that are awful.

As a final thought, one which would require a separate post to work through (or several) fictional narratives often bend or break certain "rules" which exist in real life. In real life, Vader's a war criminal, a mass-murderer, and probably a psychopath. But the movies soften certain edges. We understand the heinousness of blasting Alderaan from the sky, for instance, but because we didn't directly meet those innocents, audiences just think "That was bad", not necessarily processing it as the world-stopping tragedy it is. Star Wars presents as an adventure film, so although it gets dark, it's also fun. That's why Luke doesn't mourn Beru and Owen as much as he should. That's why Leia isn't going through PTSD from watching Alderaan blow up. She should be a quivering mess of survivor's guilt by the time Luke and Han save her. She isn't because Star Wars plays by mythological rules, not real world rules.

That's why I think people like me are able to forgive Vader's atrocities. The world of the film has different standards, so we just know Vader = Evil and then, in the second and third films (V and VI, technically), we know that Luke sets out to save his soul, as it were, and ultimately succeeds. I'm okay with that because of the mythological-level/ faerie story setting.

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Because it's easier writing. This series likes to have balance and show that most people are gray, but they want to show that they will ultimately tip toward good. Except for the occasional big bad, so they end up having one big bad to defeat, with the help of their traitor minions. That way our good characters also do less killing. It's cleaner. And yes, that is heavy in the franchise. And in a lot of fantasy stories as well and just stories in general. If you've read the Harry Potter books, think about Voldemort's death. He died from his own rebounding spell. That way we're saved from knowing that Harry's soul would be tainted for having directly murdered him. Many people like the redemption angle. And it can be fitting. But I agree, it can be a bit much when we have a villain and we know they're likelier to redeem themselves than not depending on what we're watching. And of course Disney buckles down on this kind of thing. So while I agree it's not a sequels thing, it'll only get more prominent. The TV show Once Upon a Time was really annoying to me in that way too.

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Han is gray. Lando is gray. Vader and Ren are MASS. MURDERERS. who switched sides for selfish reasons.

Rey killed Palpatine. Luke killed plenty of people throughout the series. Leia chokes Jabba to death in a rather graphic fashion, Han shoots Greedo point blank, so I'm not buying that logic. Not to mention, the story is pushing forgiveness of some awful people. We can;t have our heroes kill anyone, but forgive the dictators who have not only killed, but killed A LOT? Nah.

I stopped watching once for that reason. It wore on me. No accountability or consequences whatsoever.

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