Perhaps the most telling moment in the movie was when a man confronts Maria and says "why is it always about the holocaust with you people?" It is not and was not about the holocaust. It was more about why the man on the steps said "you people."
More than once the theme of immigrants trying to fit in, to be accepted and to make a difference in their adopted country is raised. More than once we see how hard it is to do just that.
Maria speaks only English as an adult, except in one scene which makes perfect sense. Her father as she leaves him speaks English and tells her to speak it from now on. It is about trying to blend even when others are dead set on denying that. Her family wanted to be seen as Austrian, but despite their efforts were denied and it was the Austrians who really stole the paintings.
How do we right those wrongs? Is any amount of money enough? Is a day, a week a month dedicated to a group entity named? Here is a novel idea borrowed from our (US but in a way the US gift to the world) past, "We the people. . ."
I love your point and appreciate the questions you are raising here.
But I think that man's comment, "you people" was about the Jews. I felt very much like he was meant to come across as an anti-Semite, and that he went out of his way to put her in her place, not because of what she was trying to do but more because of who and what she is.
The man on the steps was definitely talking about Jews, the movie was trying to make a broader point about fitting in and the difficulty of assimilation.
There are plenty of anti-Semitisim alive and well in Austria and other European countries--and the world... I would imagine that Altman got hate mail after she started this court action although that was never addressed in the movie...
"That's the beauty of argument, Joey...if you argue correctly, you are never wrong..."
I just recently read that Austria was only 8% of the total population of the third reich. However 13% of the SS was Austrian. 75% of SS Commanders were Austrian and 40% of the death camp staff were Austrian. Still bad enough.
I'm not accusing you of making these statistics up, but I would love to see a citation of the source that you read this from, as I guarantee you that they are completely incorrect with their facts/figures.
I did a term paper, which was really closer to an honours thesis, in a 4th year history course *specifically* on the demographic make up the SS, both the Waffen SS, the Allgemeine SS, and the SS Totenkopfverbänd from which both the concentration and extermination camp guards were drawn and also members of the 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf, and none of these organizations contained a disproportionate amount of Austrians in them whatsoever, not officers, not non-coms, not SS men.
There were many more members from the Baltic republics, Ukrainians, and Volksdeutsch from places like Galicia as example, far outside the borders of the Reich, both Germany and Austra included, as members of the SS Totenkopfverbände organization from which the concentration as well as extermination camp guards were drawn.
In the Waffen SS, there were many, many more ethnic Germans from territories captured in the East from Poland, the Ukraine, Belorussia, Hungary, Romania, etc., serving, right from Obergruppenführers right down to SS Mann than there were Austrians. There were in fact more Western European volunteers in the Waffen SS than Austrians; Danes, Nederlanders, French, Norwegian, Spanish, Italians, etc., not to mention the Eastern European volunteers which included Ukrainians, Baltic Republics, and tons of Volksdeutsch from all over Eastern Europe and even Russia, serving throughout the Waffen SS organization, found in almost every unit, but specifically in units such as 5th SS Panzer Division Wiking, 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division Nordland, 33rd Grenadier Division Charlemagne, 23rd SS Panzergrenadier Division Nederland, etc., with further major units formed of Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, and so many divisions of Volksdeutsch from outside the area of Germany and Austria, too.
With the Allgemeine SS, Austrian served in direct proportion to their relative population to Germans in general, and, again, no matter whether it was in the officer corps or as lower SS men. In fact, because the Allgemeine SS was so small "p" political in nature of ranks given out, men who might be as high up as a Brigadeführer might only be a basic SS Mann, or private, in the Waffen SS.
Anyways, those stats about Austrians are so completely whack I can't even understand them. The only way I can see them being even close to the realm of possibility is if all those Volksdeutsch who were pressed into service in the Waffen SS that came from areas which *used* to be parts of the Austro-Hungarian Empire prior to the end of the First World War were counter as Austrians.
In any case, if you remember where you read these stats, please cite your source, I'd be really interested in check the book out as it just flies in the face of all the research I did myself on the matter.
I'd love to see your sources (or thesis). It looks like you've spent a fair bit of time doing real research, unlike the vast majority that relies on wikipoo and blog summaries.
Yes, while Austria has spent the better part of the past 80 + years trying to disassociate themselves from Hitler and the 3rd Reich, this shows that deep down they were Nazis at heart. What a triumph this was for one family destroyed by them.
I heard Walter Slezak, a famous Austrian actor, say, quite a few years ago, that the Germans were Nazis; the Austrians still were. That surely did not endear him to his countrymen!
i didn't feel he was coming across as anti-semitic. by saying 'you people and the holocaust' it was like he was saying 'it happened. it's over. move on'. lots of people feel this way about different things. slavery, racism, 9/11. it's where the phrase 'ignore your history and you're doomed to repeat it' comes from. some people believe there's a shelf life on historic events.
All of what you've said is nothing but lies, nobody uses schoolchildren and civilians as shields, Israel knowingly targets civilians and murders them in cold blood, 2500 civilians last year alone. Any terrorism the Palestinians retaliate with is justified within their inalienable right to defend themselves against the invaders who have stolen their land.
It doesn't matter it isn't my land, the absolute truth is that it is PALESTINIAN LAND, that's the truth and not even God can change it. And only an imbecile would see modern day through the bible.
Sorry fella , that man you were trying to educate is nothing more than a bigoted hate filled piece of filth( probably a shill account), a quick look at his other posts which have no connection show him still ranting about the evil "Jew" ( sorry ) empire and its fictitious murder squads. I would say he and his ilk should be removed from life but that would make me as bad as him so best to leave them to their own devices hopefully one day their brain washing will be complete and theyll have a little issue with the detonator cord...........hopefully
I always consider things this way tbh , a "muslim" suicide bomber kills innocent people in a crowd and not all muslims are to blame, an israelli soldier kills a suspected suicide bomber and all Israel must die, some vast numbers of people are hypocrites to the bone.
As an Atheist i have many friends from many cultures but i am very very slowly starting to cut some off because one of the groups of people constantly and consistently hammer their religion wherever we are and this one group is constantly trying to convert. Slightly annoying when your at a dinner party.
BetterLikeThis, you are a star! The person you're responding to may not be smart enough to be able to learn from what you've posted, but what you said reaches others who read this thread, too. Thank you for speaking for truth!
Whom are you making fun of? The anti-Israel, anti-Jew propaganda that he is spewing all comes from the liberal media. FOX is the only news network that ever broadcasts anything showing Israel in a favorable light.
You got your narrow-minded bumper-sticker clichés mixed up.
Always feel free to attack someone as a substitute for thinking.
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Too bad more people don't know the truth about what is going on between the Arabs and the Jews. They don't research the history, they just listen to the propaganda and believe that whoever looks the most pathetic must be right about everything. The Palestinians know how to appeal to peoples' emotions. Ignore the facts, and you will get people to go against Israel every time.
Color me gray. (Grey? I can never sort that out). I'm extremely sympathetic and sad for the Hebrew people. 6 million dead! But not just Jews, rather ~anyone~ they viewed as even slightly defective or inferior. The mentally and physically ill. "Halfbreeds". Other ethnicities. People who just didn't "look" aryan enough. Anyone who criticized them in the least.
So six million dead. Horrid.
But wait. Didn't 30 <million> die in WWII? Many many Russians and eastern Europeans, French, British, Scandinavians, and just so many others. And Japanese. And let's not forget the pogroms of Stalin and Mao. Yes, I know that isn't WWII but my point is that we should remember all of them and chant, nay SHOUT out "never again. Never again.
Just saying ...
Why do we give the holocaust, evil as it was, SO MUCH more time, remorse, sympathy, memorials and so forth. I don't want to take even an iota of that away from Jews. I'm just saying there is a LOT more to grieve for.
Color ne gray. (Grey? I can never sort that out). I'm extremely sympathetic and sad for the Hebrew people. 6 million dead! But not just Jews, rather ~anyone~ they viewed as even slightly defective or inferior. The mentally and physically ill. "Halfbreeds". Other ethnicities. People who just didn't "look" aryan enough. Anyone who criticized them in the least.
So six million dead. Horrid.
But wait. Didn't 30 <million> die in WWII? Many many Russians and eastern Europeans, French, British, Scandinavians, and just so many others. And Japanese. And let's not forget the pogroms of Stalin and Mao. Yes, I know that isn't WWII but my point is that we should remember all of them and chant, nay SHOUT out "never again. Never again.
Just saying ...
Why do we give the holocaust, evil as it was, SO MUCH more time, remorse, sympathy, memorials and so forth. I don't want to take even an iota of that away from Jews. I'm just saying there is a LOT more to grieve for.
I remember that photograph very well,the little boy stretching his hand up,it breaks my heart anew everytime I think of it,there should have been happiness in those childrens hearts instead there lives were taken by evil,may God cherish them all.
The Nazis would have disagreed. They saw it as both, but ultimately the racial component was more important to them. That's why they murdered Jews who had converted to Christianity as well (for example, in the Warsaw Ghetto there were two churches serving the converted Jews who were brought there by the Nazis. Many of them felt it was wrong that they were there, since they were Christians in their own minds. Eventually they were all sent to extermination with the rest of the Ghetto's Jews).
Judaism is a religion, I suppose, but the Germans were VERY DEFINITELY using a wider definition. Look at the bizarre laws they created that defined mixed-race so carefully. Have a German father; maybe you're aryan, a Jewish mother, we'll kill you.
Those aren't the exact criteria but give the tone, but if you read the laws you'll see they wanted to kill most anyone with the least possible connection to Judaism, Hebrewism, Gypsies, and what they termed miscreants of all kinds.
Ultimately they dreamed of killing everyone, worldwide, that wasn't aryan.
The thing is, though, that for other groups like the Gypsies, political prisoners, the mentally and physically handicapped, Poles, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, there was never any well-oiled campaign to kill every single one of them.
They also targeted Gypsies - the same "every single one of them" as with the Jews, meaning key people might have been pardoned, if they somehow helped or were related to the Nazis.
There's no doubt extermination camps were real, but as for the six billion Jews [or was it million? nevermind, a lie is a lie], it's clearly an inflated number, by a factor of something like 10, employed by the Zionist winners of WW2, for the sole purpose of shock value and politically correct protection throughout the media, which is even more perverse and disgusting than "regular" war - traumatizing your own people [the Jews] with deliberately inflated "six million" lies. If you somehow dare to question the "six million Jews" dogma, you're tagged as a denier - which only makes the number more questionable. The Nazis indeed kept very careful records, but asking Zionists about the true figures of the situation is basically like assigning a wolf to protect a defeated sheep. And, go figure, asking neo-Nazis about the holofigures would somehow constitute for an inherently unreliable source. It's like the bible: self-sufficient dogma. Meh.
Also, as someone mentioned before me, there were a hell of a lot more casualties amongst Europeans - some 30 million?? - but that is rarely mentioned.
WW2 was basically National Socialism fighting the Zionist bankers [Zionism is a Jewish invention] and the Communist USSR [Communism is a Jewish invention]. The Zionists wanted to undermine German economy after WW1 - the Nazis were merely a reaction to a national threat. The US General who said "We defeated the wrong enemy" at the end of the war was sooo right...
You know what made me respond to your passionate [read: angry & traumatised] post? Your signature: "Well SOMEBODY has to say it!". How ironic...
Please at least try to keep up. We're talking about percentages of the population. Was there ever any campaign to murder every last Russian or Pole? Nobody is saying nobody else died. But there was a clear intention to exterminate all the Jews of Europe. They almost got there, too. Four out of every five were murdered -- including harmless old people and innocent little children. And yet you feel some pathetic need to minimize that?? Shame on you!
I would like to add more information to the above: In Germany and Austria and countries such as Poland, Lithuania Latvia and Estonia, the Germans managed to kill 90% of Jewish populations residing in those countries. In total, close, to one million children were murdered in Europe. I am writing these words from the centre of Kiev, 6 kilometres from Babiy Yar, which served as the first instance in the Holocaust where a metropolitan city in Europe lost virtually every one of its Jewish inhabitants to deliberate murder.
Perhaps the most telling moment in the movie was when a man confronts Maria and says "why is it always about the holocaust with you people?" It is not and was not about the holocaust. It was more about why the man on the steps said "you people."
I have a feeling that that was meant to indicate that most living Austrians in 1998 who had been born after 1945 and thus did not participate in any way in pre-1945 activities had indeed moved on.
If The Woman in Gold is your only exposure to Austria, then, yes, you could be forgiven for thinking that Eichmann, Kaltenbrunner and Globocnik represent the sum total of Austrians.
However, if you also look at the film Rush, you will see Daniel Brühl play the legendary Austrian Ferrari Formula One driver Niki Lauda in his epic 1976 duel with James Hunt (played by Chris Hemsworth.) In Rush Austria is mentioned, Brühl plays the Austrian Lauda and Alexandra Maria Lara plays Lauda`s first wife, the Austrian Marlene Knaus...but the Holocaust is never mentioned.
Niki Lauda, after his horrific crash in 1976, got his pilot's license, founded his own airline, and then, after a Boeing flown by his airline crashed in Thailand, pressed, pressured and harangued Boeing until they gave him a jet of the same model to test, wherein he demonstrated that said model was unfit for high speed above certain altitudes, giving closure to the families of the victims of the Lauda Air crash.
As well, Austria's Glock is the world's most popular pistol-maker, and, arguably, the world's best pistol-maker.
Lauda was born in 1949, well after Eichmann and Globocnik did their things. Arnold Schwarzenegger, Terminator and Governor of California, and still respected movie icon, was born in 1947, also well after Eichmann, Kaltenbrunner and Globocnik did their thing.
However, if The Woman in Gold is your sole reference point for things Austrian, you would never know any of this, and thus you would not in a position to understand why Austrians of Lauda and Schwarzennegger's generations and after do not think about the Holocaust 24-7. They have lives, and they built those lives not having anything at all to do with the Holocaust.
Benoit killed 2x as many w/o a gun than Belcher did with one/S&W fighting climate change since 1852
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you would not in a position to understand why Austrians of Lauda and Schwarzennegger's generations and after do not think about the Holocaust 24-7. They have lives, and they built those lives not having anything at all to do with the Holocaust.
Well, no.
To live in a nation whose population embraced a frighteningly inhumane philosophy requires that you question what went before, because the present is obviously the child of the past.
For ex.: The terrible, ongoing racism in the US -- the direct descendant of slavery -- is of great concern to me even though my family came to the US in the 20th century and had no direct connection to slavery or to the slaughter of Native Americans. But *I* live here now -- and every action I take every day helps determine whether this nation stays mired in the status quo, makes a little progress, or (worse) slides backward. . . . . . If you think the attitudes that not only allowed but outright endorsed slavery and the slaughter of indigenous people don't affect every US resident today, then you're fooling yourself. The plantation owner of 1860 didn't suddenly become an enlightened human at the close of the Civil War; he passed on his attitudes to his children, and they to theirs, and so on. Yes, some people evolve beyond close-minded familial dogma, but not all -- which is why many are still enamored of the Confederate flag, to cite just one simplified example. (And why many in Europe are proud neo-Nazis.)
Every Austrian and German who shrugs and pretends that the Holocaust is over, no need to examine it, shut up about it already, is essentially paving the way for another atrocity. And that applies to everyone in every nation where some massive, systemic destruction of a targeted group took place.
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I know I'm terribly late to this discussion, having only watched this movie for the first time this evening. However, your post made me laugh out loud.
This thread has evolved into a somewhat serious conversation on the Holocaust and Austria's actions & attitudes on this topic. And your addition to the discussion is to cite a movie?? Really?
Also you would explain away the quote from the movie as being the result of a younger generation moving on. The past is done and gone. Do you understand that a mere 6 years before Maria Altmann begins her struggle, the Austrian president was a former Nazi? That in 1985 Kurt Waldheim's wartime service and membership in the Nazi party were widely discussed and Austrians still voted him into office and he finished his term in 1992?
It's hardly surprising that the "Reparations Commission" and the Museum and the general public didn't take Altmann seriously.