Considering how slavery was a rather casual matter in the US, with everybody knowing about and most people positively advocating/endorsing it, while Nazis did their best to keep their crimes hidden, it seems to be a valid thesis after all.
Like even today, modern "Nazis" are denying the Holocaust, even though one might assume that it's something they should supposedly be proud of...
The actual camps were hidden in Nazi Germany. Nonetheless, the antisemitism and hate was well known in Germany. It was everywhere.
Also, as in Nazi Germany, some stuff may have been hidden from the American public. For instance, slave-holders, constantly tried to portray the slaves as children, and the owners as kind, benevolent people, incapable of a lot of abuse. However, we know that often wasn't the case.
Not everything needs to be compared to Nazi Germany. Humans have always been cruel to one another & guess what it happened long before the Nazi's . We either hide our cruel treatment, try to justify it, or make it legal
shareYou have a good point. Certain human types have always been cruel throughout history. What bothers me is I am not sure portrayals are made mainly for honest content, insight, or just for the money. The United States is not the only country that had slavery in it's past. We're just one who has it debated so publicly thanks to internet and money makers. In fact, most of civilization has been founded on it to some extent by all races, either within their own race and/or to other races. It pays to remember for most of us that back in slavery era and earlier there was no televisions, no internet, no phones for most people, unless you have money. People out in country (and there was a lot of it then) did not know exactly what was going on. Newspapers were not always available or honest. I am older and when I went to grade school we were taught about slavery issues in history but emphasized how America should be proud that of evolving and the problem no longer exists like it did. Not every one had slaves. There were indentured servants (like slaves) of all types, ages, and races. The Romans had slaves and worked many of their slaves into their armies and civilization. So nix on American being the only bad. It's just an excuse to fan racism and make money off of it. It really hurts the youth of today and race relations in many schools, etc. Everyone, and I mean everyone in the world has slavery in their history. Just because it happened in America doesn't make it the worst ever. What an insult that is to all of the people who have died as slaves throughout world history. Also, many others just killed all of the slaves they had, period. America did not do that. I am proud of my country and proud of this world as it evolves for humankind. Sorry to all of you who want to nitpick and make sensationalism off of tragic past. In my opinion, it just enflames hatred even higher. I see it in the high schools, churches, everywhere to some extent in the world. (Thanks for reading this, sorry to natter on. :)
shareNot quite. By the US antebellum period, the slaveholder class was caught up in an economic system very hard for them to change. The Third Reich created their reality.
shareIn the 17-18th Century, slavery was very common if not the norm. By the 20th Century in Europe, extermination camps were not.
I think God approves of slavery in the Bible. Extermination too.
I think God approves of slavery in the Bible. Extermination too.
Not trolling per se although I know many like to "interpret" the Bible as all good even while saying the OT was "special."
Incest? Lot and his daughters.
Domestic violence==with a stick no bigger than your thumb, stoning etc.
The Bible is FULL of very bad moral teachings. "Leave your family and follow me."
You have to bend like a pretzel to avoid that fact.
Many say they believe the bible literally..... but... they don't when put to the task..... either that.... or you are totally nuts and on your own jihad.
True or false: the bible instructs in detail how various category of slaves are to be treated, disciplined, released from bondage? Instead of you know: Commandment No 11: All men are my children and shall be free to worship and associate as they please.
The Bible is FULL of very bad moral teachings....
You have to bend like a pretzel to avoid that fact.
Exodus 20: And God spoke all these words:
2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below....
Exodus 21: “These are the laws you are to set before them:
2 "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free....
20 "Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."
I thought about "this issue" a bit. If one is honest, one has to recognize many teachings in the bible are "wrong" and not what we would want an all loving god to be. Should cause any honest conservative religious type some dissonance.
My own solution, if I were religious, would be to keep god holy and blame the book. The book was after all compiled by a group of men around 400 AD. They chose poorly...or failed to edit.
Course.... that is applying my 21st Cent morality to a book/papers written at the dawn of organized farming communities. Different times.
Interesting work being done on the "science" of morality: that it springs from our dna and being a herd animal.
"♫...Is it Science or Religion?"
If it's in our DNA, who's to say that that wasn't the hand of God at work? It's funny when people juxtapose religion and science when in fact, it's not reaching(if you believe in God) to see that even science was created by God.
God's works aren't supposed to be able to be proven by science or we wouldn't need faith, we'd have proof.
I see Stupid People...
Who indeed? Why not pink unicorns....and all the other standard responses you don't accept?
SCIENCE...one day it will unite us all, if we don't perish first..... from lack of following...............SCIENCE!
Watchng Noah on tv right now. "Rock Monsters." ............. I'll take proof over faith.
bobbo_says "I'll take proof over faith"
Therefore, nothing is what you'll get! Because there is no irrevocable "proof" of anything related to the birth of mankind or to disprove God/afterlife.
As astute an observer as you seem to be, you should see better than most how fallible humans are. Humans; those purveyors of science.
I see Stupid People...
What satanic definition of "proof" are you using? In context, it could only be of the most rigorous restricted kind: Mathematical Proof. On that....I agree.
..............but meanwhile in the real world there are lots of uncontested proofs....
or do you think sea shells on the summit of Mt Everest is "proof" of nothing? Mathematically....correct....no proof of anything.
Is this your solipsistic view?
This is not a religious statement but, there is only one truth in all matters and it's absolute. I'm sure you're aware that science has held many beliefs that would qualify as "proofs" under your definition, only to later reverse their position.
"Is this your solipsistic view?" No, this is my rational opinion, in reference to your original comment about science being "the answer" if we follow it. Science lacks answers to a lot of things. Even in the medical field, they struggle to identify the cause of ailments, let alone cure them.
Humans are a flawed lot and without humbling ourselves to acknowledge that, our current downward spiral will continue till the end.
No matter what you say, that might seem critical of me, I see you as an intelligent person and would like to wish you the best ☺
I see Stupid People...
Surprising very rational post. Having faith is one thing, ranting about its superiority over other epistemologies is over the line?
Let's parse:
This is not a religious statement but, there is only one truth in all matters and it's absolute. /// "ok"...but most matters of concern are not subject to proof, not absolute, and very subject to a host of other and even superseding concerns. People driven by "absolutes" miss a lot of subtlety that life presents.
I'm sure you're aware that science has held many beliefs that would qualify as "proofs" under your definition, only to later reverse their position. /// Exactly incorrect. Proof has a formal definition which I gave which is a "proof" and not a "belief." Very different categories of thought and recognition. After that, all I did was ask a question. You know: do seashells on the top of Mr Everest prove anything or not? I note you didn't answer that question. Note that I answer all questions. It avoids ships passing in the night.
"Is this your solipsistic view?" No, this is my rational opinion, in reference to your original comment about science being "the answer" if we follow it. //// I won't check the reference.... but, yes, Science is the only endeavor that has found any answers for us. Religion and Faith...only for those of such outlook. What to do when people disagree? Only Science.
Science lacks answers to a lot of things. /// Yes, everything a work in progress.
Even in the medical field, they struggle to identify the cause of ailments, let alone cure them. /// "even?" the medical field is one of the most unreliable, not a hard science....still, things advancing though. If you have a heart pain, what is the best response? Prayer or Medicine. You see the issue?
Humans are a flawed lot and without humbling ourselves to acknowledge that, our current downward spiral will continue till the end. /// Well...thats my whole point...you DO NOT humble yourself when you say your faith has the answer. Its the supreme arrogance...in view of the evidence that supports such social engineering.
No matter what you say, that might seem critical of me, I see you as an intelligent person and would like to wish you the best /// and I wish you a growing comfort with ambiguity.
@Infinite-Rage.
shareUgh... in this context, it seems Christians are as bad as Muslims purportedly are. I did hear from other Christians discussing stuff like raping women now makes them that man's property. This passage certainly explains just that.
But yeah, in the end, there are very good, and very bad people in all religions, so the broad brush to paint everyone certainly doesn't hold here. :)
ORANGE for all
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You obviously haven't read your hate manual. Because it is indeed fine with extermination, slavery and incest.
It's also fine with domestic abuse. You do know that it says absolutely nothing about it, even though it talks about punishments for all kinds of violence, but not that.
Hm.
You're not bright enough to figure out why, are you?
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Did I read it ? Really ? In the XXI century ???
shareDid I really read it ? In the XXI century ???
shareThe Bible never says slavery is unjust, and the level of punishment permitted by the Bible would be considered cruel by modern standards. The Bible doesn't approve of genocide, cause the extermination of the Canaanites, had to do with giants (similar to those in Noah's day), not humans.
The verse in the movie about "being beaten with stripes", was obviously a slick attempt to use the Bible to keep slaves in line. That verse had to with a person's status after death. This verse does conflict with the common view of Hell, as it seems to imply that the afterlife is a type of purgatory.
The verse in the movie about "being beaten with stripes", was obviously a slick attempt to use the Bible to keep slaves in line. That verse had to with a person's status after death. This verse does conflict with the common view of Hell, as it seems to imply that the afterlife is a type of purgatory.
I agree. All the people who preached from the Bible back then to support the institution of slavery...... had it all wrong.
shareThe Bible is FULL of very bad moral teachings. "Leave your family and follow me."
Jason--are you of the position that every teaching of the bible is good, right, and just?
If not, what provision still gives you pause?
I think the Bible is right if properly interpreted. But few people do that. I mean, if your going to say the Bible isn't word for word truth, then why not be an atheist? I think people who ignore parts of the Bible totally are sugar-coating stuff.
Of course, some things were relevant to the time. For instance, comments about dress codes etc.. They don't really apply now, but some fundamentalists want to return the USA to the 50s, so they enforce a type of legalism.
Myself, I don't even believe there is an eternal Hell, yet take the Bible literally. Cause the Bible doesn't teach that, if you look at the Ancient Greek.
shareI think the Bible is right if properly interpreted. /// Are you admitting that the bible cannot simply be picked up and read and applied straight forwardly but must be studied until everything it says it right?.... or something else? How is it that many people thru time have spent their entire lives studying the bible and say that it teaches this that and the other thing that you and I agree are "wrong." Can you feel me yet?
But few people do that. /// Well, enough do on the surface of things to fill the churchs as much as they do. Not everyone.... but more than a few?
I mean, if your going to say the Bible isn't word for word truth, then why not be an atheist? /// or worse?
I think people who ignore parts of the Bible totally are sugar-coating stuff. /// Now...THAT is most interesting. What exactly are you thinking of that is "sugar coated." I certainly can think of a few, but its your statement.
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My statement is pretty simple. If anyone reads the bible in a straight forward manner for its plain meaning, the OT is full of horrors that most societies have made illegal... as they should be. The NT is even worse, but not as directly and it goes to the consequences of Christian Theology rather than everyday morality.
Fun stuff.
Religion, or even a non-religious belief system caters to what hypocritical people want to hear. Take gays for instance, you can easily see that many Duck Dynasty supporters are engaging in every sin (as according to the Bible) under the sun, but feel superior by singling out one "so called sin" and making a fuss over it.
People probably don't like the universalism religion, because they're not doing that.
Ultimately society has rules, because people interact with each other. But these rules are often unreasonable, and based on lies. For instance, if people have the wrong view about hell, then what else are they wrong about? Yet, they want to base society on their wrong view of scripture, or the Koran, or anything.
Of course, religion isn't the only bad thing, nationalism can be just as bad. Communism, as we seen with Pol Pot created a nightmare.
You certainly are a mix of honesty, biblical analysis I agree with, and logical fallacies, reasoning I disagree with.
Most people that rely on the Bible for their moral direction like to say that it is inerrant and anything bad within it is a product of our not understanding God's majesty and love as revealed in the Bible. "If" I understand you through your miasma of fallacious equivalencies, you agree that the bible says slavery is approved by god AND that slavery is wrong. Thats unusual for a religious person.
Somehow early in this thread, I had the notion you were usuing the Bible to support the institution of slavery. Re-reading, I see I got that wrong. I apologize. Its good to be accurate about what a disagreement is all about...with agreement as well.
Fun stuff.
My statement is pretty simple. If anyone reads the bible in a straight forward manner for its plain meaning, the OT is full of horrors that most societies have made illegal... as they should be. The NT is even worse, but not as directly and it goes to the consequences of Christian Theology rather than everyday morality.
I think the Bible is right if properly interpreted. /// Are you admitting that the bible cannot simply be picked up and read and applied straight forwardly but must be studied until everything it says it right?.... or something else? How is it that many people thru time have spent their entire lives studying the bible and say that it teaches this that and the other thing that you and I agree are "wrong." Can you feel me yet?
It's impossible to interpret the Bible properly because of too many contradictions, ambiguities and analogies that are open for interpretation, this movie showed how the same book was used to justify and simultaneously condemn slavery, that's why you shouldn't follow blindly a religion.
"Some people are immune to good advice."
-Saul Goodman
It's impossible to interpret the Bible properly because of too many contradictions, ambiguities and analogies that are open for interpretation, this movie showed how the same book was used to justify and simultaneously condemn slavery, that's why you shouldn't follow blindly a religion.
I didn't say it's wrong to follow a religion, I said it's wrong to follow a religion blindly.
Tradition is a direct result of religion.
There is no truth, there are many truths.
"Some people are immune to good advice."
-Saul Goodman
My statement is pretty simple. If anyone reads the bible in a straight forward manner for its plain meaning, the OT is full of horrors that most societies have made illegal... as they should be. The NT is even worse, but not as directly and it goes to the consequences of Christian Theology rather than everyday morality.
Fun stuff.
So considering books like "The Bell Curve" are around, then who are the monsters? Religious folk or scientists? /// Religious folk as they claim an unchanging truth and often that such truth justifies action on their part. Scientists (sic for the synecdoche or anthropomorphism it is) offer up ideas that are only that. Such ideas are regularly proven wrong or superseded.
I don't see anything wrong at all with the basic notion in the Bell Curve--that certain traits are distributed racially. Its an interesting situation--that what it identifies could be true, but is mostly irrelevant. The superseding idea is that valid group dynamics should not control over individual group members. Whites may not be as smart as Orientals...but that will tell us nothing about the next two people thru the door...nor if intelligence is even the key requirement of what we are really after.
Science, like Religion, more misunderstood and misapplied than we wish for.
Uwinator
slavery was a rather casual matter in the US,(...) while Nazis did their best to keep their crimes hidden,No, actually your premise is wrong. First of all, this is a question that was answered by the Nazis themselves. If you read their defence case at Nuremberg they compare themselves to pioneering nations - Americans, specifically - in their attempt to exterminate the native population and create "living space" for the Germans. They specifically state they are as much criminals in their pursuits as Americans were in their wars against Indians while colonising the continent.
The basic blueprint -- which is astounding to me in it's sociopathic inhumanity -- was that Germany was to be considered a healthy, robust, living "organism". And all non-Germans and other "defectives" were to be considered "viruses" conspiring to "infect" the supremely evolved German "organism". And therefore, needed to be cleansed completely!
And it was literally the most educated minds in Germany that Hitler used to come up with this supposedly scientific malarkey!
Oh, and they got part of THAT from the Americans too! They were somewhat continuing what the Americans had started with various eugenics programs.
Yep, a version of social darwinism on steroids.
Don't explain with malice what you can explain with stupidity
No, actually your premise is wrong. First of all, this is a question that was answered by the Nazis themselves. If you read their defence case at Nuremberg they compare themselves to pioneering nations - Americans, specifically - in their attempt to exterminate the native population and create "living space" for the Germans. They specifically state they are as much criminals in their pursuits as Americans were in their wars against Indians while colonising the continent.
Jason-Y
non-German Europeans had 100 percent healthy immune systems.Jason, just sit back for a minute and read what kind of provocative nonsense you just wrote - again :). Just give it a minute and think.
The Nazis had great plans to create slave-nations out of remaining population of Europe, but only after doing the hard work of exterminating European minorities (Jews, Gypsies and more: I don't remember the exact list), killing political opponents, dissenters, the disabled, finally intellectual elite of ALL European nations. Europeans - non-Germans were to be permitted to have minimal education and have their existence validated only by their serfdom to the German Reich. Death Camps were to remain on standby in times of peace, but to be used if they got a large group they wanted to exterminate.
Jason-Y
The slave-holding south, Jim Crow South, and Apartheid South Africa, made no effort exterminate anyone (with the exception of Amerindians), and never tried to kill the disabled or intellectual elite.Never tried to kill (or terrorise) whose intellectual elite? And where ware the principles of Eugenics applied in practice? (you know what is Eugenics, right?) Oh, wait, look what I found without even looking:
Eugenic policies were first implemented in the early 1900s in the United States.from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics Now what could that possibly mean?
Europeans - non-Germans were to be permitted to have minimal education and have their existence validated only by their serfdom to the German Reich.
Of course, you forgot the "Crusade against Communism".You mean: the Nazis Crusade against Communism? Jason, your lectures betray you :) Very nice manipulation. Now: who is habitually excusing the Nazis claiming their crimes were justified with their anti-Communist prejudice? Neo-N.....(cough, cough) why won't you finish the sentence for me :)
the US wasn't slaughtering the disabled or nothing like that,Ups.....Eugenics.....in the U.S......dirty little secret :)
If you ask me there was massive levels of psychotic behavior in BOTH situations. Look at some of the scenes in 12 Years a Slave. These crazy-assed plantation owners are asking people they have beaten, raped, and mutilated to dance and act like everything is just wonderful. There is one scene in the movie where Solomon is just standing there with this look on his face like WTF?!? He is just standing there and it looks like he is trying to figure out how the hell he got involved with these damned nuts? During the Holocaust supposedly sane people put whole families to death and didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing. You have to be out of your damned mind to do some of these things if you ask me. I mean who does this?
shareSCY385-1
You have to be out of your damned mind to do some of these things if you ask me. I mean who does this?According to psychologists and philosophers - allegedly normal, everyday people. Apparently, in or natural state we are much worse than we think.
How's this...
Average, everyday humans -- with all the standard emotional weaknesses inherent in all humanity -- suddenly discovering they have the power of GOD himself... ...but NOT the accompanying character of GOD!!!
In other words...
How many people do YOU know who, if gifted with such power, would fearfully respect it's immense potential for corruption, and simply lay it down and not use it??? And likewise, how many people do YOU know that if gifted with such power, would have enough moral character to not slowly be seduced into abusing such power??? And lastly, how many people do YOU know that if they somehow recognized that they were becoming a monstrosity, as a result of such immense power, would have the courage to sincerely apologize, and "quietly" surrender such power???
Personally, I know very, very, very few!!!
THAT'S HOW!!!
Having lived on this planet longer than some, but less than others there is one thing I know to be a fact. There is no such thing as normal. I have also learned not to pay too much attention to what 'looks' like normal either. Many times people are very good at hiding their true natures and thats if they aren't too narcissistic. I just have always felt that you have to be a couple of cans short of a six pack to do some of the things that people do. One thing that drives me crazy about stories like slavery or the Nazi's is that its is very obvious that slave owners and Hitler were crazy/evil. But what I have never understood is why SO many people followed them. I cannot believe that ALL these people didn't know what they were doing was wrong or sounded a little crazy. Is it really possible to kill every Jew in the World? Is it really possible to enslave an entire race of people just because they are a different race? I can't believe so many people went along with all of this. But then again I can. When people are getting what they want out of situation they will tolerate just about anything and I do mean anything.
shareNo offense, but your reply doesn't seem to even acknowledge any of what I wrote. Particularly the 3 questions I asked.
It's about humans wanting power over other humans! (And being ill-equipped morally to handle the results of that power.)
No offense taken. I really wasn't addressing you though. I was just expressing some things that I had been on my mind. That's all.
share