Yes, but, as I've stated in previous posts, that still doesn't mean it's not important to character development. It was only in a quarter of one book because it was something Detta had to overcome, as a person, and move past. A character trait doesn't have to extend its way through an entire franchise, and be continuously present, in order for it to be relevant to the character themself, so page count is not usually an accurate representation of relevance. I do get where you're coming from, but this isn't always necessary to define a character, in my experience.
For example, if a character experiences troubles with intimacy due to a past rape experience, but learns to become physically close to a person in the first quarter of a novel, does it cease to be relevant to the character, simply due to the lesser amount of pages dedicated to it? It's a quality over quantity thing, m'man. I mean, Roland's duel with Cort is a pretty small portion of the first book, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a defining moment for the character.
And I know the argument: "What, she couldn't hate Roland for other reasons?"
Yeah, she could... but, personally, I'm yet to hear a reason that is even fractionally as impactful as seething, ingrained racism. That's an extremely high hurdle for a character to overcome. The Uncle Tom defense is equally as weak, in my opinion, but that's just me. I may be a working screenwriter, but I'm definitely not writing Hollywood blockbusters yet, so what do I know? Haha.
Anyway, just how I feel, personally, not saying you're wrong in how you feel.
As always, I respect your opinion and you're entitled to it.
Man, I wish there were a way to exchange emails, or something of that ilk, through IMDb. I'd love to debate this with ya in a less public forum; you're one of the intelligent ones. I always enjoy our interactions. :)
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Captain_Wesker
8 years ago
Good to see you, jpfurlong79. You are one of the precious voices of sanity and maturity on this board that I always appreciate the opportunity to speak with.
Now, here comes a disagreement .
Detta Walker never got over anything...she was a grossly exaggerated stereotype of an American black woman from the 1960s that was essentially pushed aside thanks to magic which was made available to Odetta (the primary personality) via the final beach doorway. Ultimately, Odetta absorbed some of her assertiveness plus street smarts and, in the process, became Susannah. It was not as if Detta herself was the original woman that slowly and naturally came to grips with her ugliness in order to become a better person.
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .
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jpfurlong79
8 years ago
Heh, thankya. We may not see eye to eye on the whole Roland thing, but it's good to have a respectful debate on the subject.
You present a very good argument.
Personally, I found it very satisfying to see the melding of the two personalities in the books. I suppose "overcome" wasn't the right word, when I used it earlier, in regards to Susannah. In a sense, I guess I felt more like the defeat of a villain. Metaphorically, it could be viewed as victory over racism, too. Detta being the personification of that.
You raise a very interesting point about Detta being a stereotype of sorts. Thinking about that from a studio's point of view, that could definitely be something a studio might want to avoid. Very illuminating. Well-stated, sir.
Honestly, as long as they don't make her a white supremacist or use the Uncle Tom angle, they'll keep my attention. :P It's just very hard for me (and many others, it seems) to divorce myself from King's work, visually; he really solidified things in my mind's eye, unerringly, but we'll always have the novels and comics, regardless, won't we? :)
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Cap. It's always appreciated.
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Captain_Wesker
8 years ago
Might you explain why the "You Uncle Tom sonuvab****!" angle does not sit well with you?
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .
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jpfurlong79
8 years ago
Just wrote a whole response to a question you didn't ask, because I misread your post. Whoops! :P
I just feel like it's a copout, honestly. When someone treats someone as an Uncle Tom, it's usually used in the context of shame and disappointment, maybe even disgust, but not necessarily rage and fury. And there isn't necessarily anything that would make Detta think that Roland was sympathizing with the white man. I mean, what would make her assume that?
A white Roland embodied everything that Detta hated, as far as her character is concerned. Kindhearted Odetta was fighting for equal rights between black and white folk (all people, technically), so throwing an "Uncle Tom" into the mix just doesn't quite feel like something that would be at the very top of racist ol' Detta's proverbial *beep* list. Sure, she'd feel he was a "race traitor", but would she hate him with the fury of a thousand suns, the way she hates the white man who pushed her in front of a subway train and cost her her legs. The rage that she now projects onto other white men? I don't feel the two concepts are on par. :-/
It's definitely up for debate, though, I suppose. They could possibly have her say something like, "The only thing I hate worse than a honky is an Uncle Tom.", and it would work, but for me, I just feel like Goldsman painted himself into a corner, once the casting was locked in, and that was the best he could come up with to rectify the issue.
I dunno. We'll have to wait a long time to see how they address it. Right now, everything is just supposition.
A bit of a non sequitur: there is also the little bit in the books about Odetta herself almost being viewed as an Uncle (Aunt?) Tom of sorts, because her family is rather wealthy, and she is seen as not quite subject to the same hardships of other minorities. I believe there was some mention of how people treated her differently because of this. Wasn't a huge thing, and I'm sure it could be omitted for the sake of the film franchise, but I'm pretty sure it was there. Not really relevant to this debate, but whatever. :P
Anyways, for me, it just doesn't feel as strong. Not that it's awful or anything, just not quite as impactful.
Hope that makes sense. :)
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Captain_Wesker
8 years ago
I just feel like it's a copout, honestly. When someone treats someone as an Uncle Tom, it's usually used in the context of shame and disappointment, maybe even disgust, but not necessarily rage and fury.
Given the psychotic nature of this specific split personality, I really don't see a problem with her needlessly amplifying a misconstrued statement into a full-blown brawl. Remember that she sabotaged Roland and Eddie on countless occasions simply out of pure meanness.
And there isn't necessarily anything that would make Detta think that Roland was sympathizing with the white man. I mean, what would make her assume that?
Any number of things. Roland consoling Eddie in his own stoic way or providing practical survival advice.
Polite conversation between both men could be interpreted as some conspiracy against her.
A white Roland embodied everything that Detta hated, as far as her character is concerned. Kindhearted Odetta was fighting for equal rights between black and white folk (all people, technically), so throwing an "Uncle Tom" into the mix just doesn't quite feel like something that would be at the very top of racist ol' Detta's proverbial *beep* list. Sure, she'd feel he was a "race traitor", but would she hate him with the fury of a thousand suns, the way she hates the white man who pushed her in front of a subway train and cost her her legs. The rage that she now projects onto other white men? I don't feel the two concepts are on par. :-/
Maybe a little less...at first...but remember that she likened his disembodied mind in her own head to a "raping" presence and he
does keep her in bondage. On top of that, because he is a man from
another world entirely (with alien mannerisms and vocabulary/idioms) that possesses a lawman's bearing
and one who "colludes" with white man Eddie Dean to (in her eyes) restrict her every freedom, I can see her hate simmer until it boils, spills over, and scalds Elba-Roland.
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .
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jpfurlong79
8 years ago
I see where you're coming from, it just still feels like it requires too much exposition.
A white man took her legs, so that's technically the root of Detta's most aggressive hatred, psychologically. That was when she was truly "born". At least that's what I got from it.
You know what would be interesting, though? If Jack Mort was black. Dunno if that would work in the long run, but it could solidify an Uncle Tom viewpoint. Even better, though, it would actually subdue the racism element quite a bit and make it more about hating men. Hmmm.
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Captain_Wesker
8 years ago
.
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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .
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