No one talking about Cleganebowl?
Cleganebowl finally happened, and I can't find any thread discussing it. How come?
sharecos everybody whining about worstshow, worst writers, worst everest ever.
share
MovieChat Forums > Game of Thrones (2011) Discussion > No one talking about Cleganebowl?
I don't know if I liked it or not. It just kind of did exactly what I expected. To want to go and fight his brother to the end was something that was never really made clear until this season, but it's like it was the only way the writers could figure out how he, and the Mountain should die.
shareI was expecting something grander. It was a contest of wills but in the form of a street brawl.
It was awesome to see Sandor bring to an end the Mountain's personal reign of terror. Equally, from the perspective of viewing the two men as co-creators of each other's suffering in life it is also satisfying.
What are you talking about? Sandor(The Hound) had absolutely nothing to do with the Mountain's "suffering" in life. The trauma was completely one sided.
shareThat's my view too. However, I've noticed that there is a theory that somehow the Mountain was afraid of Sandor since childhood, that he saw the future wherein Sandor kills him. This video talks about it:
"Game of Thrones: The Mountain - Gregor Clegane Character Study" -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydrUG5iRpYI
The claim in the video is that Sandor saw a vision of himself killing Gregor, not the other way around. Maybe they meant to imply that he told Gregor what he saw and that is why Gregor attacked him. Regardless, I see no basis for that claim in the show or the books.
shareYes, the theory is that Sandor saw a vision of himself killing Gregor (The Mountain) in the future. I noticed upon reviewing it that the video cites briefly a reference to a Reddit comment which is the source of the theory. This is the Reddit comment itself:
"[EVERYTHING] "You've always known" a theory about the Cleganes
We know the Hound can see visions in the flames and we know there's an unspoken hatred between the Clegane brothers. We never understood it until they see each other face to face. When the Hound says "You've always known", he makes a very clear claim. The Mountain has always known that The Hound would kill him.
I theorize that when they were children, Sandor looked into the flames and foresaw Cleaganbowl - Gregor dying at the hands of Sandor. When he told his brother what he saw, Gregor became enraged and tried to kill him with that fire. Gregor never attacked Sandor over a toy, he tried to kill him to prevent the vision from coming true. So Gregor has been rage killing ever since because he knew he was invincible to all but Sandor. Sandor has been avoiding the flames ever since not just because of the trauma of being burned, but because the visions he saw there caused everything between the brothers." [Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/6zwsk8/everything_youve_always_known_a_theory_about_the/]
So this confirms what you suggested, that the theory also says that Sandor described the vision to Gregor.
To be clear, all I'm saying is that I came across this perspective and am presenting it as an idea that interprets the characters and storyline. It is only a theory and an interesting one, but obviously not essential to understanding the characters, as Martin the author already presents a kind of outline of a motive for Gregor.
Thanks for the additional detail. I agree that it's an interesting theory.
shareThe Hound saw a vision in the flames because Thoros set it up for him. Much like how all the other characters who saw visions in the flames had them set up by the Red Women.
It's never even insinuated that the Hound can see visions in flames except for that one episode where Thoros showed him.
Using a non-canonical fan theory to support a non-canonical fan theory doesn't substantiate it in any way.
Interesting theory, but not based off the actual story in any way.
Reddit isn't ASOIAF or GoT, so just because some randoms say what they think doesn't mean that's how it is in the story.
Also, the very first comment on the Reddit link you posted was a link to the show and an explanation debunking the OP.
My "theory" has always been that The Mountain burned The Hound because Gregor was a dick and Sandor was playing with his toy.
Good points and regarding angles I didn't think about.
I would maintain that as non-essential and non-canonical the opinion might be we can still value it for information and it not be a problem. I don't think any fan group actually "owns the story" as the often mass market based tradition of literary or narrative canon might maintain. That tradition in itself is a construct, a cultural manifestation - in twenty years it might be a completely different GoT audience and cultural rules regarding the story. It's like the struggle between old Westeros political culture and the new Bran one - same country, different players, different policies, different outlook.
I'm inclined to accept Sandor's stated view about his childhood experience too.
Fan fiction. Among the absolute worst of it too.
shareEach other's suffering? What the hell?
shareCheck out the video I mention above that talks about Gregor Clegane.
shareDude. Your comment simply makes no sense at all based everything we know about these characters which is why you got called out for it.
It's not an insult to present this idea about the Cleganes or discuss it. Nor is it a real problem or affront to imaginatively interpret an author's ideas or books. The literal adherence to a book's content is actually a subjective approach and only one type of reading of a narrative.
Martin is free to dictate how his stories will be written - he is the authority - but readers are free to interpret those stories in any way they wish.
You are entitled to whatever fan theories you may have but casually presenting your theories as a matter of fact as you did is disingenuous and misleading to those who may not have known better.
shareNot a matter of fact, a matter of *perspective*. A perspective is a point of view - to say that there is a perspective on something does not mean it's a fact.
shareLol! Dude you clearly took advantage of the fact that nobody quoted your original comment & have since edited it to "clean it up" a bit after the fact which is even more disingenuous, not to mention quite tacky.
shareI'd have enjoyed it a lot more, if Hound had ever given us a clue *why* he was going south to fight his brother and die, instead of making a new life in the North or something. Was he sticking with Arya to protect her? Was he so consumed with rage that life had no meaning? Was he heartbroken he didnt get to break Sansa in rough himself? Really, how could the fight mean anything without motivation?
So that's yet another plot line, ruined by this mad rush to get the show over with.
I think it’s pretty clear that it was about revenge.
Back when he heard about Arya’s list and that the Mountain is on the list, he said something along the lines of: "He's on my own list as well." And when he met his brother in S07E07, he said: "You know who’s coming for you. You’ve always known."
As for the "new life" part – I think he was done with that after the story with the septon guy played by Ian McShane (can’t remember the character’s name), that’s my interpretation.
S7 was two years ago. Really, they should have had at least one line about his motivations *this* year.
And it is sad, because he really could have made as new life for himself in the North. He fought the Others bravely, Sansa might have given him a castle (somewhere he'd be between her and the wildlings), or gotten him a job with one of her bannerman or in the Vale, and he could have helped rebuild the North and palled around with Arya and so on. He could have made a life for himself, and I want to know why he refused to do so.
People can't change what they are. They can try though. The Hound was a vengeful soul. He tried to kill that part of him, but it wouldn't die. He knew this after seeing good people die horrible deaths while shitty people like he and his brother continue to escape death.
shareIf he was that vengeful, why didnt he give Brienne any trouble?
They came to some level of understanding by the time they met again. It was important to him back then that he protect Arya, even though he said he was just looking for reward money, it was definitely more than that. But like Brienne told him, she was just trying to protect her as well.
Things like that, he can get past. But he could never get past how he feels about his brother.
Anti climatic
shareBecause it looked like one of those final scenes from 'Friday the 13th' 8-9-10.
shareIt seemed forced to me. The whole city was being burned to the ground anyway so why bother with a sword fight? Nobody alive knows that it happened or who won.
The scene would have worked better if it happened before the city was being destroyed.
yea, I do that on here, I give casting advice and my opinions on stuff about movies that should be made.
It was neat, had a dagger in his head and pulled it out.
The Hound had been burned by his brother when they were kids. The scars on his face and forehead were from that. I fully expected this blood match between the two of them. If I remember right from the book, Clegar/Mountain was more the instigator, but they probably had a shared hatred or competition with each other.
I do wish Sandor could have survived and lived out his life.