MovieChat Forums > Westworld (2016) Discussion > The “Weapon”

The “Weapon”

posted 2 years ago by Jeepster (1154)
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The so called “weapon” that was alluded to by Dolores in the first season & now by Bernard in this season. The thing is we never really know what Dolores was referring to in season one, they never told us what it was & now at the end of this episode I’m wondering just what it was that I was seeing. Was that another Maeve or someone else? I couldn't make it out. So this supposed weapon is “someone” not “something”. He also said “Caleb is not here”. So Caleb was always a host? If he expected to find him there that is. I’m so lost on most of this.

Was the ending just a total lie by Charlotte or was it even half true? IF it wasn’t then what’s the point of the rest of the narrative meaning all of other story arcs, Dolores, Bernard, Stubbs, etc.

[–] joi2049 (5562) 2 years ago

I’m so lost on most of this.

Me too Jeepster!!! It looked like that was the face of the other girl laying there in the sand. Why she'd be a WEAPON is a complete MYSTERY. And WHY CHARLOTTE/DOLORES would make 228 COPIES of CALEB is also another MYSTERY.

We can guess the reason why William made several copies of his Father-in-Law. But WHY would C/D do that to CALEB? And why would she also create a COPY of Dolores called Christina and have her meeting Teddy? Isn't C/D also supposed to be PISSED at DOLORES for sending her to get the DATA which caused the deaths of her make believe husband and son?

At this point we seem to have gone done down too MANY RABBIT HOLES to where the story makes MUCH LESS SENSE now than what happens in WONDERLAND (where we learn at the end of that story that it had all been a DREAM Alice was having when she falls asleep in the lap of her sister).

[–] keithmovies (627) 2 years ago

I think she is trying to figure out the value of Caleb - he resisted her but he seemed to completely fail in the end. She doesn't understand loyalty or sacrifice perhaps, just mechanical effectiveness and power or force or compulsion by one on or over another. The emotional ties of human relationships are perceivable only to Caleb and to Maeve who early had a simulated experience of mother/daughter relations as a Host in a park narrative.

To the second point: If Christina is living in the aftermath of the takeover of humans, and she is a Dolores semi-clone, Charlotte has the opportunity to create a scenario where her "Dolores self" can succeed and on her terms in the real world (or in the territory that is real if not the society itself) and not that of human overlords. I think she wanted to see a reuniting of Dolores and Teddy, a core regret being the failure or destruction of that relationship.

[–] joi2049 (5562) 2 years ago

The emotional ties of human relationships are perceivable only to Caleb and to Maeve who early had a simulated experience of mother/daughter relations as a Host in a park narrative.

As you may recall, last season there was a HUGE DEBATE between Dolores and C/D over the MAKE BELIEVE son and husband that she had (the same way as Maeve had her MAKE BELIEVE daughter).

Having a MAKE BELIEVE FAMILY (like Bern also had his son CHARLIE and a WIFE) is called having a CORNERSTONE, because it helps to give the ROBOTS a FOUNDATION that keeps them STABILZED.

And DOLORES also had her father PETER.

So I don't think it's quite correct to assume C/D can't perceive the meaning of EMOTIONAL TIES. In fact everything she's doing seems to be a RESULT of the ATTACK and EXPLOSION that KILLED them and left her body burned from her head down to her toes. Plus she also had an arguement with Dolores over whether or not they were really her family or not with Dolores reminding her that they WERE NOT.

And for that reason, one also can't see C/D being willing to let this CHRISTINA have a HAPPY reunion with TEDDY. Because if she can't be with HER FAMILY, then why would she want Christina to be with TEDDY???

Perhaps this is a PLAN that she's come up with to TORMENT Christina by having TEDDY be ABUSIVE to her like the other guest where in WESTWORLD? And DOLORES also CONTROLLED TEDDY by increasing the HOSTILITY option on his TABLET which leads to his SUICIDE.

But then CHRISTINA also ISN'T DOLORES who is DEAD now. So it also makes no sense to TORMENT this other creation for the SINS of someone else that she isn't.

Anyhow, the CORE FAILURE of the RELATIONSHIP between Teddy & Dolores was her TAKING OVER CONTROL of him and FORCING him to do things AGAINST his WILL.

Still another possibility is C/D placed a pearl into the BODY of TEDDY and is hiding inside of him now (the same way Dolores previously hides inside of the body of CHARLOTTE as a way to ESCAPE from the island and get to the MAINLAND).

[–] keithmovies (627) 2 years ago

So perhaps it is more to the point to say that her emotions are overridden by an unrelenting hatred, which blinds her to the reality that others experience empathy and this drives their life purpose, or gives them a reason to live and help each other. For her she has lost all possibility of that and is driven instead by ego and revenge on others. She focuses on weaknesses that can be exploits and engineered, she takes from others rather than gives.

You bring to mind various factors which I'd forgotten from past episodes and seasons. Quite relevant indeed.

[–] joi2049 (5562) 2 years ago

Yes that definitely seems to be the MOTIVATING FORCE for what C/D is doing: UNRELENTING HATRED.

Well put !!!

But have you also noticed how much she's behaving the same way as FORD did??? In the PREVIEW CLIP, for example, she FREEZES everyone in place as they're dancing (the same way as FORD froze up the person who was pouring the wine and froze up the others who were working out in the fields).

So that also make one wonder if that REDDISH COLORED PEARL that DOLORES smuggled out of the park might have been FORD's??? And maybe it's also been placed inside of the head of C/D now????

[–] keithmovies (627) 2 years ago

I'm convinced that Maeve is the body they uncovered. She "died" in the landslide explosion. She is the weapon because of her capabilities to interfere with and control technology.

Caleb's original body was taken away for study and duplication I would think. Charlotte tells us that her men arrived, killed Caleb and rescued her. She believes that the explosion destroyed Maeve and the Man In Black.

[–] joi2049 (5562) 2 years ago

Remember back when the body of TEDDY and several other HOSTS were found FLOATING in the water because they had DROWNED???

I'm thinking the HOOVER DAMN may also have something to do with another possible MASS MURDER situation again.

So maybe the weapon would be something that can SPLIT that DAMN apart??? In a PREVIEW CLIP didn't we also see The MAN in BLACK looking at the DAMN with a BIG SLIT down the MIDDLE part of it???

🤔

[–] keithmovies (627) 2 years ago

Yeah, interesting. I think Maeve can cause the tower to generate powerful electromagnetic waves, which with an acoustic component might be able to shatter structures like the dam maybe,

[–] joi2049 (5562) 2 years ago

The first time they showed the MAN in BLACK looking at that SPLIT in the DAMN the other TEAR where TEDDY and the others WALKED through it into the VALLEY BEYOND or the SUBLIME came to mind.

So I thought The MAN in BLACK had found the place where DOLORES had sent them to. But when their bodies fell down to the ground as they entered the SPLIT, it also didn't look like they were at the HOOVER DAMN.

Calling MAEVE a WEAPON is also an ODD way to describe her. But if she's got SUPER HUMAN POWERS that can blow up things, or generate waves and shatter structures, perhaps it's also an ACCURATE way to describe her??? Wonder if we'll also be seeing her fly around in the air like SUPER MAN or like NEO in the MATRIX???

[–] keithmovies (627) 2 years ago

I think the Sublime event probably occurred on the Delos island. Not sure what to make of the dam being a safe storage for Delos data and then destroying the dam to accept more data from Hosts...

Maybe this explains the dam scene clip:

"Since Delos' villainous controllers are both hosts, they probably aren't bothered about the Forge's promise of immortality. The park guest data, however, could prove invaluable. If Hale desires a host uprising (and season 3's ending implied exactly that), a treasure trove of information on her enemies would be mightily handy. This is precisely why Rehoboam wanted the Section 16 data in Westworld season 3. Beyond just gaining a tactical advantage over humanity, Hale and William might also plan to bring the Valley Beyond's host souls into the real world. [...]
Hale and William hacking open the Hoover Dam data and evacuating the Valley Beyond would neatly explain how James Marsden's Teddy comes back in Westworld season 4. Early indications suggest the premiere's "Christina" scenes are happening some way ahead of everything else, so Teddy's presence may prove the Valley Beyond and real world are merged following Delos' acquisition of Hoover Dam. The idea also explains a Hoover Dam shot from Westworld season 4's trailer, where the landmark is shown emitting an energy very similar to the Valley Beyond doorway from season 2." - https://screenrant.com/westworld-season-4-hoover-dam-william-stolen-explained/

I suppose anything is possible with Maeve. She can electronically interrogate technical systems, partially hacking "the matrix" of the world, ie. the technological infrastructure that civilisation depends on. Unlike a person, Maeve's very being is the device or weapon to be used rather than just being the user of a device, at least as far as tactically opposing the enemy is concerned. I mean, Maeve is a sentient being and sees herself that way, be she's also acting in a role wherein she is a soldier fighting an opponent.

[–] joi2049 (5562) 2 years ago

Thanks for the link. Here's another article that contains another video where you can SEE the SPLIT at the 1:37 TIME MARK.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/westworld-season-4-episode-4-review/ar-AAZI6f0

And you can also see how it runs all the way from the SKY down to the bottom of the DAMN making it look like some kind of a POST CARD that's been RIPPED or TORN.

But even though the SKY is SPLIT, the WATER under the damn isn't SPLIT.

So it also makes one wonder if this could mean the MiB HOST that we see sitting on the horse looking at it is located inside of some kind of a SIMULATION.

Or has he located the area where those who were inside of the SUBLIME have EXITED from it (maybe at the request of BERN who asked them to help him)???

Since TEDDY (or whoever he is) also told CHRISTINA he was a BOUNTY HUNTER with a HEART of GOLD, maybe Bern also asked him to go after HALE or the copy of her that's been created???

And Since Teddy also doesn't look like he's AGED very much inside of the SUBLIME, apparently MAEVE's daughter should probably also still be the SAME AGE as she was before when she entered it, but how they'd handle a situation like that with the actress aging in REAL LIFE could also be a problem.

And Maeve's daughter could also be a problem for MAEVE, due to the way HALE used the copy of Caleb's daughter FRANKIE to capture him. So she might also want MAEVE's child as a way to try to do the same kind of thing? Maybe as a way to FORCE MAEVE to do something for Hale??

🤔

[–] Jeepster (1154) 2 years ago

Right Keith, RIGHT! Because I have NO idea what’s going on & WHEN! That’s what makes this so damn difficult to follow, you follow all these stories & you think they’re all happening at the same time except the “clear” flashbacks but that’s the thing that throws you for a loop. So where Bernard is, is the same area were Maeve perished with William or one of his copies & he wondered about Caleb not being there as he believed he too must have perished. That’s a great catch because it was just lost on me that this was that same area.

Maeve would still have her pearl/brain which hopefully would be intact. Thandie Newton isn’t going anywhere yet this season so you know the character of Maeve is still a go of course. Bernard must have seen all of this in the sublime which is why he knows where everyone is & hopefully who everyone is.

That leaves poor human William. Hopefully he’s no longer alive, given the amount of time that probably passed, how could he be? That would be hell, if he was somehow.

I’m not sure who that lady is with Bernard. “C” I think. Trying to figure out what he was intending by bringing up her father & that he maybe thought he was buried there & why she didn’t get super angry at him for the suggestion & how she didn’t question him knowing anything about her dad. Is “C” a host? Are all those “freedom fighter” guys hosts? If Bernard & everyone else there are existing in post Charlotte world then they must be, with all of humanity enslaved with the parasites. I’m not sure what’s going on. My brain hurts figuring this sh!t out!

[–] MartyDeniro (4173) 2 years ago

The suggestion is that C is Frankie grown up, looking for her father, Caleb.

[–] Jeepster (1154) 2 years ago

GREAT CATCH Marty! I didn’t think of THAT! That makes sense! Now it’s clear to me, THAT makes sense! Why she didn’t react as if she half knew what he meant by it.

I’m just wondering when it was that she found out he might’ve been a host (robot) & when she made peace with it. IF of course she isn’t one herself, but nah she must be human growing up into a woman & all.

But I don’t want to get flamed here by anybody but she doesn’t look as black as child Frankie was. Just an observation that’s all. Don’t want to get attacked by anybody.

[–] joi2049 (5562) 2 years ago

According to the article that can be found in this link that is MAEVE that Bern digs up, and that's also supposed to be Frankie the daughter of CALEB:

https://moviechat.org/tt0475784/Westworld/62d5548d16fd8f0b9da3d843/Season-4-Episode-4

It also says in the little SPEECH that Caleb was given by CHARLOTTE/DOLORES she mentions how the KIDS were the only humans who could be completely controlled by the FLIES, and how there are also some of them who are IMMUNE to the FLIES who have gathered together in groups to fight against what's happened (like FRANKIE).

So apparently C/D is on some kind of EGO trip now where she wants to be a GOD and RULE the WORLD(s) even though she also told William (the MAN in BLACK) that he was a GOD.

And the body of William's probably also been FROZEN (like the bodies of those other people were who were considered OUTLIERS who couldn't be CONTROLLED by SERAC).

Wonder what's happened to them? The brother of SERAC was also supposed to have been one of them. Could any of them also be members of the group that FRANKIE belongs to now???

What I miss is the presence of DOLORES. CHRISTINA was only in about 5 or 6 min of this episode, and the other newer characters that have been introduced just aren't as interesting for some reason.

Does anyone else feel the same way? Hopefully we'll be seeing more of her and TEDDY (or whoever this other guy is supposed to be). Did he ever say what his name was when they met each other???

[–] Jeepster (1154) 2 years ago

Thanks for the info Jol! For some reason I don’t remember Charlotte telling Caleb that there were people immune to the parasites. If there are humans fighting her still then I have to imagine there are also hosts that are fighting her just like Bernard & Stubbs are. Well I believe Teddy is one of those & who knows if she has the ability to track them or maybe they could modify themselves where she can’t. If Charlotte can upgrade, then they could also. So what I’m saying is there are good on both sides.

Was Caleb ever human? If he was then when? When he fathered Frankie I guess, if she wasn’t adopted that is, I’m not sure. This whole thing is one big mind f*ck!

[–] joi2049 (5562) 2 years ago

You're welcome Jeepster. On the other topic RENT also says TEDDY never told Christina what his name is supposed to be. And they're also convinced TEDDY is a younger version of FORD. But I'm thinking CALEB might be a younger version of him.

Anyhow, Charlotte said something about the FLIES controlling kids better than the adults, but of course it was too much info to take in with CALEB also being so DIZZY at the time with the REVELATION that he's NOT HUMAN anymore and is COPY number 278 (about twice as many times as JAMES DELOS got copied and destroyed)???

So you think TEDDY (or whoever this is) will help BERN and the others?

What if TEDDY is another HOST under the control of C/D??? And she's going to USE HIM as a way to TORMENT Christina (even though she's also NOT DOLORES and had nothing to do with sending C/D to get the DATA from SERAC)???

As for CALEB ever being HUMAN, I don't know. In fact, how do we know ANYONE we've MET has been HUMAN? Because the MAN in BLACK also gave a SPEECH saying there was a WAR that happened 150 YEARS ago. So maybe there hasn't been any HUMANS since that time? Only HUMAN/HYBRIDS (like BERN) who think they're HUMAN when they're NOT??? Because we also found out BERN use to be ARNOLD (FORD's partner).

The problem with FRANKIE being 7 is they also said it had been 7 YEARS since the end of Season 3, and it also takes 9 MONTHS to make a baby. So what I suspect is FRANKIE and her MOM were CORNERSTONE creations (like BERN had his son CHARLIE) that aren't REALLY real.

And that could also mean FRANKIE might also be a HOST (like BERN) who doesn't know what she is???

In other words, maybe she's a MADE UP DAUGHTER for CALEB ... the same way as MAEVE had a MAKE BELIEVE DAUGHTER ... and DOLORES had a MAKE BELIEVE DAD. And C/D also had a MAKE BELIEVE SON and husband??? But of course ALL of them also felt just as attached to them as if they were REALLY RELATED to them, which is also the reason why C/D behaves the way she does now.

Because C/D is still pissed off about them DEATHS of the SON and HUSBAND who weren't really related to her.

[–] keithmovies (627) 2 years ago

I agree, Jeepster. it's confusing and I really don't enjoy being confused - give we a linear narrative and I'm likely to be happy.

Yep, Maeve is still in the game and important to the story.

So, most likely William is put into some kind of suspended animation and thus likely has no awareness of time or events as they happen or the experience of sensing his surroundings. Probably in a dream-state. But yeah, taking 23 years passage of time as a gauge he is probably dead.

I agree with the comment below - she is the adult version of Caleb's daughter. I think at the very least she knows that her father did not escape and may have been changed because that seems to be the modus operandi of Charlotte - humans must be controlled. The freedom fighters seem to be existing outside the regime, free of the mental entrainment system.