MovieChat Forums > The Fall (2008) Discussion > To those who say there's no story

To those who say there's no story

posted 14 years ago by BreakerSeven
62 replies | jump to latest

There seems to be this meme that Tarsem is all visuals and no story. It's been applied to The Fall by some critics, on this message board, and recently by Stephen Dorff and TheWrap.com. While this accusation may have been true with the Cell, it's certainly not the case with The Fall.

I think there is a gap between expectations and reality. Many people hear about the visuals of The Fall or see the trailer, and even hear Roy call the fairy tale an "epic", and that's what they expect. An epic.

But this is an intimate character drama. The heart of the story is about deep pain, cruelty, love, innocence, redemption. There are so many rich details embedded throughout the film it really rewards multiple viewings.

Don't fall prey to lazy thinking and preconceived expectations. This movie has a terrific story.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] nzxt 14 years ago

I have watched hundreds of films troughout the years but rarely fall asleep like in this case.
I couldn't from early on fully tell what was going on-screen and I have studied filmtheory.

The plot is a mish-mash of fictional characters whom I really don't care about, it's all about them wanting to avenge their frustration. Many people say that Alexandria is so cute and lively, but I dismiss her as a chubby child who can't speak proper english despite she lives in LA. I strongly believe that Tarsem was a crackpot to come up with such of a vivid and gory story.
I liked Tarsem's "The Cell" but it was also a very dark and morbid sci-fi thriller best suited for adults.

You haven't watched any of Alejandro Jodorowsky's films by chance?
Indulge yourself into his escapism to get a better perspective upon how films should be made.

[–] nzxt 14 years ago

An epic film shot in many locations is german director Wim Wenders

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101458/

It's somewhat dull as it has a long runtime but is never uninteresting or lacking any depth.

[–] serene9 14 years ago

Please, I have great respect for those great films you mentioned, and having them associated with someone pretentious, prejudice and a lousy 'film theorist' is absolutely an insult to these masterpieces.

[–] beulahboy1-13-200395 14 years ago

dull means 'lacking interest'. How can something be dull but never uninteresting? Also, you think a movie is dull because it has a long runtime?

And the purpose of shooting in many locations wasn't so the film viewer would think "oh, that's in India, and that is in South Africa, and that is in Cambodia." It was to create rich, cohesive fantasy world in which all of these things existed together in one place, using the beauty found in our actual world, as opposed to using sets.

I hope that you are sterilized.

[–] serene9 14 years ago

"As a chubby child who can't speak proper english despite she lives in LA"
-She is a 6 year-old immigrant child, english is new to her, and there's a scene where she speaks Romanian with her mom (but you fell asleep)..so it's just stupid to expect her to speak proper english. What an observation from someone studying film theory.

"Many people say Alexandria is cute and lively, but I DISMISS HER AS A CHUBBY CHILD.."
-very well said from an adult who studied filmtheory.

"The plot is a mish-mash of FICTIONAL characters whom I REALY DON'T CARE about, it's all about them wanting to avenge their frustration"
-don't be fooled by their flamboyant costumes, obviously the characters are based on real personalities like all of us, not like some space soldiers or greek gods or ghosts....you didn't get it because you didn't care and fell asleep.

"I strongly believe that Tarsem was a crackpot to come up with such of a vivid and gory story"
-if so, then ALL movie directors are crackpots, even more than Tarsem himself.

"I liked Tarsem's The Cell..."
-yeah, that man is really a crackpot film-maker.

"I couldn't really from early on fully tell what was going on on-screen and i have studied film theory"
-That's crackpotly-STRANGE. I don't study filmtheory but i get almost every bit of it, you know the purpose of every scene. Maybe we should change field.

"Indulge yourself into his escapism to get a better perspective upon how films should be made"
-yes, tell us exactly how a visual medium (film) should and shouldn't be made?
or we better end up just reading novels and have our own imagination.

I'm not saying that The Fall is flawlessly perfect... but If you wanna lie, make it believeble, not laughable.

[–] nzxt 14 years ago

Well you're a true crackpot who cannot argue correctly!

I'm just telling you: educated or not or interested in film or not, storytelling must aspire the viewer/reader with feelings.

I know from her bio that the girl is romanian and she was picked to the role in a audition out of hundreds of girls. She's no ie new Judy Garland in Wizard of Oz which even children can watch, an everlasting masterpiece.

What was the reason why Tarsem had to film this mess in several locations all over the world? Why did he include Charles Darwin like a playful charlatan in the story among other odd characters?

I read comments from people whom compare the beauty of "Avatar" to this flick but think it's more interesting. Well, Avatar isn't memorable at all but surely doesn't suck in this way. This was a no-brainer and still have me laughing, sure a waste of ambition, filmreel and money.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] SkillyWiggler89 14 years ago

The storytelling inspired me with feelings. I felt for all of characters; both the ones in Roy's story and the ones in Los Angeles.

Wait, do you mean that because she is Romanian, children can't watch The Fall and that it automatically cannot be an everlasting masterpiece? I don't entirely understand what you wrote.

Tarsem made the characters like he did so that we could view them from the little girl's point of view. Roy said that Charles Darwin was an English naturalist and loved all living things, so Alexandria did not associate Darwin with the evolutionist that adults would, but as an English man who loved all living things and had a pet monkey. All of the characters from the story were people that Alexandria knew or saw. This was also before television which is what Tarsem was trying to portray with the vivid landscapes and several locations. An individual's own imagination is much better than another person's ideas put into images and shown to individuals (kind of like why it's better to read a book instead of watch the movie version because someone else's imagination and thoughts aren't robbing the individual readers)... which is kind of ironic in this instance because this movie is utterly genius.

I haven't seen Avatar, so I can't really compare it, but I doubt if I'd like it better than The Fall in any aspect. Not everyone likes The Fall for whatever reason(s), but whatever. This film is awesome.

[–] zima11 13 years ago

Agreed. all of the movie's "faults" are really just biases of yours since you keep dictating, in a very particular sense, of what is a good movie and what is a bad movie. Truly, if film is to be considered art, and art tends to move one's feelings than yes this movie does do that. The scene where both are crying because he is killing off the characters - there is a LOT of emotion in that scene, tons of layering of larger themes. for example, he was trying to cut himself off from Alexandria because he was suicidal due to his physical/emotional setbacks; he was also feeling guilty for her getting badly hurt again (which is another reason why he tries to end their relationship); among other themes. whereas, for her it wasn't just a story, he indulged in her imagination and spent the most time w/ her. so, for him to end the story in a destructive way was very painful and difficult to accept since she was so immersed in it.
furthermore, the characters are all people she's seen in real life and weaves them into the story - like what happens to you when you dream - and often has good reason to do so.
and lastly, she's 6 for God's sake! this is HER STORY TOO! idiot. next time you fall asleep while watching a movie try not to comment on it cuz you'll sound as much of a jackass as you did now. and btw, forget her English, you really should re-read your comments first! idiot.

[–] bollingerhimself 13 years ago

To be fair, I enjoyed the real-life narrative of the story FAR more than the story-inside-the-story. The film had moments, but, I never felt it come together in a cohesive manner.

Then again, I didn't enjoy "The Cell" either. Probably just not my cup of tea. I guess I can see how others would enjoy it, but, it just wasn't up my alley.

[–] Established1981 13 years ago

I have to agree that this is incoherent film in my opinion. The 'chubby' child actress was the only intriguing performance for me.

One named director's worry me. See McG.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] readjacksonporter 11 years ago

You aren't going to prove us wrong with your opinion. I personally enjoyed The Fall. I don't need constant action or basic Hollywood talent to keep me entertained through a two hour film. If you fell asleep then okay, I guess this film wasn't for you.

You cannot prove this film was crap or a waste of time, just like I can't prove it was enjoyable and one of the most creative films I've ever seen. It's opinion. You're entitled to your own.

So quit being so negative. It's exhausting.

[–] catbookss 10 years ago

I cannot believe anyone, let alone anyone who claims to have studied film theory, is comparing The Fall to Avatar, and saying The Fall comes up short!

On top of that, the little "chubby" girl who "lives in L.A. and can't speak proper English"? How on earth could you have missed the fact that she's an immigrant, even if all you saw was the first 5 minutes?

This is a brilliant film, beautifully acted, beautifully shot.

In ways it has even borrowed from The Wizard of Oz, with the incorporation of characters from the little girl's small world of the hospital into the story Lee Pace weaves.

[–] PoppyTransfusion 14 years ago

I dismiss her as a chubby child who can't speak proper english despite she lives in LA.

What a nincompoop you are. She's a Romanian immigrant in the story, that's the point. You clearly miss the poignancy of Roy dismissing her affectionate note to nurse Evelyn as gibberish, as well as her lying later to the doctor when translating her mother.

What does being 'chubby' have to do with it?

I don't think you're a very good student since you appear unable to tolerate a linear that is not immediately comprehensible and then fail to grasp the point of the main character.

rouge silk,
fierce concentrated joy,
fires the blood

[–] BreakerSeven 14 years ago

If you haven't watched this movie through to the end, obviously you are not going to understand what the movie is about. And what kind of student of film theory expects to tell "from early on" what is going on? If you took that attitude with Mulholland Falls or Memento or any other nonlinear story you would give up or fall asleep just like you did.

The main plot has almost nothing to do with the "epic's" fictional characters!!! The epic serves only ancillary purposes: chiefly a ruse to enlist Alexandria's help, but also as an illustration of the "nature of things" to both make her understand why Roy is doing what he is doing and to absolve him of responsibility.

This is exactly what bothers me about people who say there's no story. They expect the "epic" to be the main story when it's not.

And the epic is NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE SENSE. That's the whole point.

[–] Professor_Anthrax 14 years ago

"I have watched hundreds of films troughout the years but rarely fall asleep like in this case.
I couldn't from early on fully tell what was going on-screen and I have studied filmtheory."

Bah, I say. You remind me of James Verniere (the Boston Herald film critic). I swear, if a movie is not french with sub-titles, he hates it. I, however, can enjoy a good Kubrick or Fellini movie while also enjoying a mindless film like Joe Dirt or any John Hughes film. So, you can stuff your theory.

Never trust a woman or a government - Captain Yellowbeard

[–] mohammed-yb08 13 years ago

When you find the girl of your dreams

you share your life with her for a while

now is part of you that you can’t live with out

then guess what?

you find that she cheated on you or left you for what ever reason(most of the times there isn’t any) .

THEN YOU WILL KNOW WHAT THIS MOVIE IS ABOUT.

guys why when you reply to this guy you make it complicated?

we don’t need to make something complicated to make it sound important

if it is important the it is important

This is a lovely reply i want you guys to read it

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460791/board/nest/172177068?d=172183953&p=1#172976739

----------------------------
Now my opinion

SPOILERS

Amazing film, the plot is good, the little girl i couldn’t get enough of her (I rarly find little children to be intresting but this girl is exeptional and i guess that’s why they casted her)

I liked how he threw that heart medal

Like *beep* off

It is not like sappy romance movies with all of that happy ending bullsh*t

It is real

The sequence of charecter deaths was good e.g not racist

the black guy didn’t die first and he died with the honer of defending the little girl.

the indian guy was the last character to die (without counting the main character cuz he can’t die LOOOOL!) and he was definding them

Also the bomber defended them with an amazing way

I mean all of them were amazing

[–] RichBuck 13 years ago

You should study some more theory.

The eagle never wasted more time than when he consented to learn of the crow.

[–] freya-dutta 13 years ago

You sir are a pretentious idiot, and I doubt your so called "study of film theory" if you found more depth of narrative in the Cell. And just throwing Jodorwosky's name does not add value or credit to your assumptions. They are both aesthetically different (The Fall VS Jodorwosky's films) and have a very different relationship to surrealistic/absurdist storytelling.

Also: "Many people say that Alexandria is so cute and lively, but I dismiss her as a chubby child who can't speak proper english despite she lives in LA." Wow. Seriously? Have you heard of the term "Migrant workers"?

[–] h-nyina 11 years ago

If this is what came through for you, then i piece of advice from me: just stop studying film theory, clearly you're not cut out for it.

[–] gch525 10 years ago

WHOOPEEEE! "... and I have studied filmtheory."

BOY do you make yourself come off as an arrogant schmuck. You are still, obviously, an idiot. The plot is based on the relation between the sick man and the child. She is an immigrant - so there is a reason she has an accent. The narrated fantasy stories don't have to be chock full of plot - they are being told to a child.

Your arguments simply show how stupid you are and most readers here can see that plainly, although you - mr. filmtheorist (shouldn't there be a space?) - are too dumb to understand.

[–] PoppyTransfusion 14 years ago

I'm flabbergasted to learn that some think there's no story!! Why you get two for the price of one!

We have Roy and Alexandria's separate stories interwoven by the story within their stories, which sublimates the pain/feelings of both.

rouge silk,
fierce concentrated joy,
fires the blood

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] nzxt 14 years ago

Mullholland Falls and Memento are films with several storylines embedded together, and yes epic to watch to the end.
So, I'm actually into mindbending films if those are well made with compelling scripts.

Those also include moments of reality check as when the protagonist discovers the blur between fantasy and reality.
I didn't quite get why the scene when the girl goes to the truck to lick the ice was included.
The film is presented like a trippy canvas which boasts many nuances but little depth to the characters.
If only they would have kept the subplot about Alexander the Great and created a beliveable realm for the protagonists.
They pass onto one location after another instantly, I mean the film could been shot just in India.

I agree that getting into a fantasy story like this is a matter of taste or love/hate affection.

[–] PoppyTransfusion 14 years ago

It's not a fantasy story. It's a story of two injured people drawn together for different reasons: he because wants her help to commit suicide and she because she wants a dad. He tells her a story to keep her visiting so he ca use her; she wants to escape inot something good because her little life thus far had been traumatic. The best parts of the film were the two of them together and I thought their characters were well drawn and the connection between Lee and Catinca amazing.

I wouldn't describe Memento or Mulholland Drive as stories within stories. The latter is a good film, the other lauded beyond its delivery.

You haven't explained what Catinca being 'chubby' has to do with anything btw.

The world forgetting, by the world forgot
Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] nzxt 14 years ago

You feel sorry for me bashing the film, but I don't think I will change my opinion just because this intriguing thread.
Both Memento and Mullholland deal with difficult emotions aswell as physical constraint to represent various reality checks.

Film often plays with the idea that destiny is in our own hands, litterary as when Catinca's note appears in Lee's lap. Ironically, this is the only sustainable plot in the film, two characters trying to fix each other up.

Watching a chubby lead makes one ironically think you could be eg watching a Laurel & Hardy flick, my take. She's not cute at all, she's being chubby for no reason and annoying with her accenturated '....wot...?'

Go on with your sarcasms, I don't care as this is forum of free speech

[–] PoppyTransfusion 14 years ago

Your replies to me are near misses. They read like you are replying, but you don't and just get carried away in your own little world.

The issue of difficult emotions in The Fall, Memento and Mulholland Drive was not the one you raised.

I have no idea what your problem is with 'chubby', just that you have one.

I wasn't being sarcastic. I either disagree with all your points or find them irrelevant to the points under discussion. Beggars belief you are a film student - now THAT is sarcasm, you nincompoop.

The world forgetting, by the world forgot
Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind

[–] summerblink 13 years ago

"Your replies to me are near misses. They read like you are replying, but you don't and just get carried away in your own little world."

Poppy - can you see the irony of what you've written? Roy (nzxt) responding to the prompts of Alexandria (that would be you, Poppy), but never really making it flow properly because he's so depressed and doped up on morphine! Still, very entertaining to watch!

[–] PoppyTransfusion 13 years ago

Lol! No I didn't see the irony, though I rather think Roy had a better attunement with Alexandria than did nzxt with me!!

I'm a fountain of blood
In the shape of a girl

[–] serene9 14 years ago

"She's not cute at all, she's BEING CHUBBY FOR NO REASON and annoying with her accenturated '...wot...?"

I rest my case!
This poster is a 12 years old in the head. Or other child actor's jealous Mom.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] mirage1 13 years ago

*strongly amused here*

I'm going to be using this line from now on, when someone has an inexplicably strong hate for something:

"GOOD GOD MAN! Did a Volkswagen Beetle/Def Leppard/New York City kill your family?"

So useful. Thank you!

[–] dolores_medina 14 years ago

"She's not cute at all, she's being chubby for no reason and annoying with her accenturated '....wot...?' "

You are laughable. Chubby for no reason?? One needs a reason to be chubby? Or do you just think that the ONLY people that should be In fiulm should be attractive and well shaped? After all, that is what everyone in the world Looks like.. I feel there should be more ugly people in Movies, More fat people, more old people... Movies should look Like Not everyone is a 10.

[–] serene9 14 years ago

"I didnt quite get why the scene when the girl goes to the truck to lick the ice was included"
-- That's when Otta Benga as the ice delivery-man in the real world was introduced to us (one of the vital scenes) through the playful nature of Alexandria. Simple.
I don't think you're that dumb, but i do think you were thinking a little too much.

"They pass onto one location after another instantly, I mean the film could been shot just in India"
-- I don't see why would anyone could have a problem with that (and with the kid being chubby?), only the director and crews knows the situation.

"If only they would have kept the subplot about Alexader the Great and created a believeble realm for the protagonists"
-- Wild imaginations is a big part of the movie, used as an indirect way to explain a situation. So what kind of "believeble realm" do we need? can you tell me?

"The film is presented like a trippy canvas..."
-- This is in fact one of the least trippy movie (involving kids) i've seen, this only proves that you haven't watch enough movies.

"which boasts many nuances but little depth to the characters"
-- those "trippy canvas" presents the emotion and mental state of the characters. What kind of "depth" do you want?

This makes me think that you're not adventurous enough and Slow for ANY kind of movies, even for Avatar, let alone Alenjandro Jodorowski.

Sorry to say, your poor observation and shallow-minded comments were not convincing as a film-theory student.

[–] PoppyTransfusion 14 years ago

Sorry to say, your poor observation and shallow-minded comments were not convincing as a film-theory student.

This poster doesn't convince me they are a film student at all. They just name drop but the content and detail behind the name dropping is lacking.

The world forgetting, by the world forgot
Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind

[–] btiltman 13 years ago

Probably a 'failed' student

[–] the-twist 14 years ago

If you have any appreciation for the world you inhabit and the beauty of filmmaking you shoieuld cherish and adore this film.

I'm a film student and the idea that anyone who studies film dismisses this is a literal joke. If you understand the hardships of filming, if you are in love with the awe of early films innovation and understand the majesty of cinematography, I can't understand how anyone couldn't appreciate this movie.

Because we know TMNT III: Turtles in Time is about McCarthyism
http://filmevangelist.blogspot.com/

[–] l-platfoot 13 years ago

I am in love with this film, and it is a film more than a movie. No, I'm not a film student or anything like that, but in a world where we are bombarded with the same Hollywood movies over and over, this is a bright and colourful gem.

To the person commenting negatively, I understand not everyone likes the same thing, and you have your opinion and we all have ours, but I sincerely suggest you rewatch the film when you are more awake to appreciate the delicacy and subtlety of the story and watch it unfold. The vast differences in scenery are meant as a contrast to the 'real world', the little girl takes us on her journey through the story Roy is telling her, which is partly his own story of heartbreak. The dreamscape is her imagination, full of familiar faces for her and colour. And really, what greater joy is there than a child's imagination?

[–] BreakerSeven 13 years ago

*Spoilers below*

I just wanted to add... On a blog, someone recently wrote that this film is one of the most powerful statements against suicide ever. And that's really and truly what elevates this film above a simple fantasy tale. The final sequences when Alexandria realizes Roy is trying to kill himself, and he is trying to justify himself through his story, contain some of the most devastating moments I've seen on film.

[–] Cineman17 13 years ago

I HAVE in fact studied Film Theory and it is well established among critics that The Fall is a work of art. Aside from the poetry of the cinematography, the characters have such depth, and the story does thrive on multiple levels. It can be compared to films like Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odessa, Arronofsky's The Fountain, or Paul Anderson's There Will Be Blood. I agree with the majority of comments on this page: The Fall is a masterpiece and well worth watching.

[–] wewatchedamovie1 13 years ago

First off, I loved this movie, haven't reviewed it yet but I'm going to give it an 8.5 and that's coming from someone who never really likes fantasy movies. They just don't do it for me. But I do see both sides of the argument however, I see it like this.... There IS a definite story in The Fall, and it's a really good one. They just don't pander to the viewer quite enough. They could have made a few things more clear, had a few more takes with the girl so that you could understand her better. But then again, you might say that all of this is part of the films charm. Didn't bother me too much because I was able to follow the story fine, but I could see where a few things missed here and there could alter someones opinion of the story itself. I think the way they played out the stories characters and tied them with his self hatred was amazing and I think that really brought the story home.... Now Immortals.... that is a different story. Well.. there was no story.

Movie news and reviews to make you laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/wewatchedamovie

[–] rollexx 13 years ago

I agree completely - with "Tarsem is all visuals and no story". Immortals was exactly that, and the Fall had so much potential but turned out crash in the end. I really think he should stop wholly directing, and just be responsible for cinematography.

[–] serene9 13 years ago

I disagree - The Fall wasn't originally written as a full-fledged fantasy world a la Lord Of The Rings, but a human drama combined with artistic visuals in an exceptional atmosphere.

And with the ideas of real locations, minimal CGI (only used for clean up) and combining cultures, also financed it with his own money, Tarsem is the right cinematographer to direct it. But it's still impossible for any directors to do such sacrifices to all his films. They usually did it only for once or twice.

The story is actually a remake of a Bulgarian film "Yo Ho Ho".

[–] maniuis 12 years ago

The film is visually beautiful, well-acted but BORING!!! because there¡s no story to hang onto.