Atheists, if I told you....


Let me run a little what if with the atheist readers:

If I told you that there is no hell and all you had to do to get into heaven was switch your non-belief in Jesus/God to a strong faith/belief in him as God, would you do it for eternal life?

Little what if scenario "features":
-You change your non-belief in God to a strong faithful belief in God/Jesus in exchange for "free eternal life in heaven"
-You change nothing else in your life

I'm not saying this is true or anything else. Some christians believe that all you need is strong faith of God/Jesus existing to get into heaven, no strings attached/all sins are wiped clean when you die as long as you believe.

I'm not trying to convert or get into a philosophical debate here. Just wondering if it eternal life was this easy, would you do it?

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I'm not quite an atheist, but I do deny the idea of God as Creator, intervener, judge, book author, sender of prophets and Sons into the world.

Why would I prostitute my "soul" - my moral center, where my integrity is active - for Pie in the Sky?

Especially the mainstream Christian "Heaven" where only "the Righteous" dwell. A lot of those "good" people BELIEVE the "right" things, and they're still sociopathic jerks. Company to be avoided.

And again, why the Christian Heaven? There are so many classic and non-classic versions of the afterlife, most of them extant centuries before the Christian Heaven came along, e.g., Olympian fields, merger with the Divine Mind, reincarnation, angelomorphology, etc. Immortality as a belief in no way originated with Christianity. So why would I betray myself for an eternity in a less-than-perfect Christian Heaven?

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"Why would I prostitute my "soul" - my moral center, where my integrity is active - for Pie in the Sky?"

It's a question where you obviously would need your pride to take a hit for it to occur. It's not something simple.


"Especially the mainstream Christian "Heaven" where only "the Righteous" dwell. A lot of those "good" people BELIEVE the "right" things, and they're still sociopathic jerks. Company to be avoided."

This is where it sort of distorts due to the "new" ground rules I set above. EVERY believer would get into heaven. EVERYONE who calls themself a believer in christ/christian. Do you believe all the "current" 2 billion christians on earth are righteous sociopathic jerks? Not in the slightest, imagine the same people you deal with in everyday life in being in heaven, obviously with a little less "sinning" occurring though.


"And again, why the Christian Heaven? There are so many classic and non-classic versions of the afterlife, most of them extant centuries before the Christian Heaven came along, e.g., Olympian fields, merger with the Divine Mind, reincarnation, angelomorphology, etc. Immortality as a belief in no way originated with Christianity. So why would I betray myself for an eternity in a less-than-perfect Christian Heaven?"

This is similar to the response above. If "2 billion" current christians got into heaven, it would far from be as literal biblical definition "real" as you'd think. Essentially it would be a "sin-free" place where everyone lives. Is a world without sin that "less-than-perfect" for you? Or do you need sin in your "heaven/eternal dwelling place" for it to be suitable for you to take the bait? I'm not trying to be attacking, just questioning.

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Possibly I'd consider it if it's really a "sin-free zone". But part of my consideration would be what happened to divine justice after the creation of the new Heaven that you are proposing. If _everyone_ gets in without a moral change or a period of purgation/Purgatory, what happened to God's scales of justice?
But as you said, "you obviously would need your pride to take a hit for it to occur". Ummm...I think there's a difference between pride and integrity, since pride frequently has the connotation of narcissism and ego-boost, whereas integrity frequently has the connotation of genuine, self-effacing goodness. Guess I'd need to decide whether my egoic pride would take the hit, or if I would suffer grievous loss to my good integrity...

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"God's scales of justice?"

As I'm sure you know, there are "many many" biblical interpretations of christianity, christian beliefs, afterlife precepts, etc etc. And I'm sure you've heard that some orthodox Jews don't believe in hell or the existence of "the devil/minister of punishment in the afterlife:. So for me to tell you if "I belonged to a christian sect where the above applies/is standard belief" by interpeting a dozen or so biblical texts to prove my point, it would be far from a stretch. The simplest for this would be "God is love" and "Whoever believe in me shall have everlasting life"(Jesus).


"But as you said, "you obviously would need your pride to take a hit for it to occur". Ummm...I think there's a difference between pride and integrity, since pride frequently has the connotation of narcissism and ego-boost, whereas integrity frequently has the connotation of genuine, self-effacing goodness. Guess I'd need to decide whether my egoic pride would take the hit, or if I would suffer grievous loss to my good integrity... "

You are right, my wrong choice of words. Integrity is a much better option there.



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I'm not trying to convert or get into a philosophical debate here. Just wondering if it eternal life was this easy, would you do it?


Nope. I don't see eternal life as a reward. Anything you have an infinite amount of is, by definition, worthless.

--Drew

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So you'd rather not exist, instead of existing forever? Life would automatically become worthless to you in this instance? I'm not condemning, but you've heard the old sayings "at least I'm not dead"/"It's better than being dying".

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So you'd rather not exist, instead of existing forever?


Yep, pretty much.

--Drew

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"So you'd rather not exist, instead of existing forever? Life would automatically become worthless to you in this instance? "


The afterlife is not 'life' though. It's existence in some spiritual, non-tangible realm, no?

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He was been cheeky in his reply because he thinks you won't see his logic.

But here it is. The possibility of us ceasing to exists, in any realm, makes every day we did exist precious. It even makes regretful moments bittersweet. The possibility of us having paradise after life would diminish all memories we created in our life.

There is more beauty to be living within our limits of existence, then dreaming of existence extending forever, in a realm that's far better than the ones we have now.

Or think of it this way. Think of life, as our attempt to create and gather as many good memories as we can before we can't anymore, before we cease to exist. You'll see and live life more beautifully.

I have my other reasons for being non religious. But it's simple to see how accepting no after life, makes life far more beautiful. There is no seeing my kids or parents after life, or mending my differences with my family after life. If I want to be with them, it is now. And only now. Any love I need to show them, has to be done now. There's no chance for redemption or say what you needed to say once life is over. There is only NOW.

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Exactly. Believing in an afterlife makes it easier to ignore injustices in this life. To be obedient. That's what they want.

Spare the rod, spoil the child, the bible tells us. But why? Because pain is needed to force a person to abandon their true nature (which is naturally evil, according to the bible). Society requires that, it wants damaged people that have been convinced by the pains of their upbringing that their way is the only way. They are not happy, because they can't live in the moment or be free, so they need to find artificial meaning to their existence, and the promise of an eternal life, since, never having lived, they cannot deal with their fear of death.


All ideologies lead to 1984

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You hit it on the head: believing in an afterlife makes you more accepting and servile of the inequities and injustices in this life, and also more pliable in terms of religion.It also takes away from the beauty of experiencing and living in the moment. It also takes away joy, and also makes people miss precious moments right in front of their eyes that will pass and never come again. I want THIS life to matter, THIS life to be meaningful, THIS life to do good works and live, love, laugh,suffer, cry....all of it. I never bought the Biblical and and Christian notion that we are all born "in sin" ( And I was raised as a Christian). I always found these words repulsive and could feel on some spiritual level that this was about controlling other people through their guilt, rather than allowing them to freely love whatever God they wish, if they want to worship a god, or no god.

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There is no seeing my kids or parents after life, or mending my differences with my family after life. If I want to be with them, it is now. And only now. Any love I need to show them, has to be done now. There's no chance for redemption or say what you needed to say once life is over. There is only NOW.


- It is worth considering that Jesus indeed taught to live in the HERE and NOW: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?"

“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you — you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

He is essentially saying not to live for something intangible and worried about the unknown, embrace the opportunity now to live and love God's way. He does offer the incentive of the rewards of God in the context of this teaching, yet the principle of facing each day with the intent to live sacrificially for others in service to God and their benefit is the greatest way to have joy now, even in pain and suffering.

And in the next life, eternal life as well - a double win if you will. You get God's goodness now and in the afterlife. And it only takes a small amount of faith, as small as a mustard seed.

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Actually I wouldn't mind living forever, I think it's better than closing your eyes in death, that is terrifying to just not exist. To me anyway

Create a society in which you would like to live, not knowing what you're going to come into it as.

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Like I pointed out though (if my post hasn't been deleted) living forever as your body ages till you are too frail to survive on your own is kind of a crap way to exist (sorta like Tom Hank's character from the Green Mile). I'd rather die than spend an eternity locked in a room crapping diapers.
While it is horrible to miss out on all to come, I don't think a life where you have to constantly struggle forever to survive is going to be worth it.





http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0335345/board/thread/226240424

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I'm sure he meant living forever with good health, right?

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If I told you that there is no hell and all you had to do to get into heaven was switch your non-belief in Jesus/God to a strong faith/belief in him as God, would you do it for eternal life?
The difficulty in answering your question stems from the inclusion of "Jesus/God" and determining what you mean by "switch your non-belief ... to a strong faith/belief in him as God". (My emphasis).

I'm assuming by "no hell" that you mean our choice is non-existence following death or eternal existence with "God".

So, the choice really comes down to "what kind of experience would that existence be"? Is there any "meaning" to it? any "relevance"? are we just blissfully "happy" without more? Do we just sit around in some mental state akin to a drug-induced euphoria? or more like those in comas?

Is the "God" you speak of still the "God" of the Old Testament? or associated with the trappings of any religion at all? The indeterminancy in your statement creates misunderstanding.

Eternal existence with the Biblical "God" doesn't hold much appeal to me. Why would I want to spend eternity with an entity responsible for wholesale slaughter of human beings - "innocent" as well as "guilty" - throughout history? or who was so unimaginative that he resorted to the tabloidesque charade of becoming "human" just to be "executed" - temporarily - to save us from sin?

So, I can't really answer your question. I would note that as I get older, the concept of an abstract eternal existence holds less and less appeal to me.

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"I'm assuming by "no hell" that you mean our choice is non-existence following death or eternal existence with "God". "

Exactly.


"So, the choice really comes down to "what kind of experience would that existence be"? Is there any "meaning" to it? any "relevance"? are we just blissfully "happy" without more? Do we just sit around in some mental state akin to a drug-induced euphoria? or more like those in comas?

Is the "God" you speak of still the "God" of the Old Testament? or associated with the trappings of any religion at all? The indeterminancy in your statement creates misunderstanding. "

Simply, you go to a place that is sin-free with all the other "believers"(aka, 2 billion people on earth now+ others). An eternal state of joy or happiness isn't necessary or the regular there. That's your choosing we'll say. God in this instance is Jesus, the all forgiving, all loving, all powerful, giving, judgement free interpretation of him.


"Eternal existence with the Biblical "God" doesn't hold much appeal to me. Why would I want to spend eternity with an entity responsible for wholesale slaughter of human beings - "innocent" as well as "guilty" - throughout history? or who was so unimaginative that he resorted to the tabloidesque charade of becoming "human" just to be "executed" - temporarily - to save us from sin? "

What if I told you it was all a test. Life is a test. Bad things happen mostly because of people choosing bad/evil/sin, God did what he did(the slaughter we'll say) because of lapses in faith that the human race was worth saving at times or should be destroyed completely(to believe this, you would have to think God isn't all knowing obviously). But he then changed his mind and decided "they are human, sin is heavily part of their nature, and it's easier to sin than serve others and love everyone. I will now forgive all who believe and tell them about this through Jesus/My son-God incarnate". Take that as the for instance. Again as I stated above. There are many biblical interpretations for better and worse, make this one the scenario.


"So, I can't really answer your question. I would note that as I get older, the concept of an abstract eternal existence holds less and less appeal to me. "

What do you mean by abstract? Physical body? Heaven option? Sin-free world? I'm curious what you mean here and why in-depthly it isn't appealing to you.

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What if I told you it was all a test. Life is a test. Bad things happen mostly because of people choosing bad/evil/sin, God did what he did(the slaughter we'll say) because of lapses in faith that the human race was worth saving at times or should be destroyed completely(to believe this, you would have to think God isn't all knowing obviously). But he then changed his mind and decided "they are human, sin is heavily part of their nature, and it's easier to sin than serve others and love everyone. I will now forgive all who believe and tell them about this through Jesus/My son-God incarnate". Take that as the for instance. Again as I stated above. There are many biblical interpretations for better and worse, make this one the scenario.

I can't hit a moving target.

Your OP question sort of seemed to eliminate the "Jesus issue" from the question. But now it is clearly back in.

You can't separate the Biblical Jesus from the Biblical God, whom he fully endorsed and believed in. If you want to try to do that, you should phrase your hypothetical something like "assume we have a Supreme Deity X having the following characteristics and attributes ....". That way we can discuss things without wondering exactly what you are thinking about, i.e., how much of this Jesus character is the OP really talking about.

More importantly, now I'm supposed to forgive & forget this version of God for "[changing] his mind" about human sin? Do we now assume God is a creator but not an intervenor? or that he purposefully intervenes throughout history to kill or urge the killing of millions of people and/other creatures? Why should such a fallible entity ask anything of us at all for eternity?
What do you mean by abstract? Physical body? Heaven option? Sin-free world? I'm curious what you mean here and why in-depthly it isn't appealing to you.
For example, an apparently integral part of our universe is its entropy - an ever-changing nature. It is manifested by the winds we feel, the warmth of the sun, the changing seasons, etc. Do we experience any of this in this eternal existence you ask about? Is there love? hate? anger? joy? hot? cold? Do we still learn? or are we given infinite knowledge?

Or do we just sit around with a goofy smile on our face feeling never-ending joy? -- which would seem to me to be no better than non-existence.

Like I wrote, I can't hit a moving target. Nor can I express any desire for an eternal existence whose experiential aspects remain undefined.

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"More importantly, now I'm supposed to forgive & forget this version of God for "[changing] his mind" about human sin? Do we now assume God is a creator but not an intervenor? or that he purposefully intervenes throughout history to kill or urge the killing of millions of people and/other creatures? Why should such a fallible entity ask anything of us at all for eternity?"

It's not forgive or forget. As I said and you should all the better know, there are different interpretations and beliefs for many things, "especially for religous/biblical writings". For instance, the bible is full of parables, who's not to say that some are lessons and not word for word stories or some are "spiritual deaths/murders", etc etc. It's not that hard to take some scenario/interpretation as a separate entity and use it as such. 2ndly, as an atheist you shouldn't believe those stories anyway or take the 2nd path as I described to incorporate them as described, so I don't see the issue for you to bring this up.




"For example, an apparently integral part of our universe is its entropy - an ever-changing nature. It is manifested by the winds we feel, the warmth of the sun, the changing seasons, etc. Do we experience any of this in this eternal existence you ask about? Is there love? hate? anger? joy? hot? cold? Do we still learn? or are we given infinite knowledge?

Or do we just sit around with a goofy smile on our face feeling never-ending joy? -- which would seem to me to be no better than non-existence."

As I stated, it would be a sin-less environment with billions of people in it. Aside from that it's open to interpretation, but likely there is lots of harmony, peace, joy, and positive things going on. No sins, so no hate, no violence, etc etc etc. I don't have environmental conditions, but I don't see why that plays a part in your decision unless we'd be talking extremes which is highly unlikely for the scenario just because you asked. Learning and growth are interesting questions, yes we can learn and grow still, and say we aren't given infinite knowledge but we can obtain it over time.

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2ndly, as an atheist you ...
It is a mistake to assume what someone believes based upon what they post upon an anonymous discussion board, particularly one directed toward religion.

It is best to simply assume they have posted to present a certain point and debate the point. Just like debaters in high school or lawyers at trial.

Regardless of how a question is directed or phrased, anyone with intellectual curiosity may choose to answer it.

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A common fallacy theists make is to say that God/Heaven is good, but when pressed for details they admit they don't know God's deeper motivations or Heaven's basic description. To declare someone or something "good" requires some understanding of these aspects, so theists who admit ignorance of those fields must forfeit their original claim of saying that these entities are good!

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A common fallacy theists make is to say that God/Heaven is good, but when pressed for details they admit they don't know God's deeper motivations or Heaven's basic description. To declare someone or something "good" requires some understanding of these aspects...


- God is good because His Word proclaims His goodness. He is good, but He is not limited by our human understanding of "good", nor is He subject to our understanding of "good" and "evil".

The description of heaven is to be in God's presence, and fulfilling His purposes. God's deepest motivation is for us to know His love and Him personally, subjectively; share His love with and live sacrificially for others, as Jesus did and exemplified.

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1st, it isn't really an assumption because if you are an atheist, you don't believe in God or any actions depicting him.

2nd, this question is directed towards atheists, so answering it means you are one.

3rd, I apologize if I was wrong, but do you, as an atheist, believe those stories anyway? And even if you don't I told you to take the 2nd path as I described to incorporate them as described, so I don't see the issue for you to bring this up. Why walk around the question/debate for an indirect and unconcious slight on an internet forum?

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First, you are an idiot.

Second, communication is all about understanding what one person means when a word is used - regardless of any particular belief system that either party to the conversation holds. Since you fail to comprehend that - and you continue to obscure what exactly you mean when you write things like "God" or "God/Jesus" or God as Jesus the son or whatever you have posted above, at the same time saying assume this and ignore that, there isn't any use any trying further with you because I quite frankly don't have the slightest idea what connotations you are bringing to the table when you write about your postulated Supreme Deity.

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Or maybe I am giving a what if scenario based on some christian's beliefs. I mean, people can interpret the bible any way they want. Being a narrow-minded, atheist in a thread about openmindedness and opinion is quite rediculous. Especially when you resort to ignorant name calling, when you are ironically ignorant yourself on the topic. Please, the next time you enter a what if scenario, especially on a christian interpretation scenario, know that "NOT ALL CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THE SAME THINGS" and there are countless interpretations and beliefs of the new testament that call themselves christians, as a professed atheist you should be on top of this. That is all and I am done responding to your closeminded jabs.

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"know that "NOT ALL CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THE SAME THINGS""

And there, in a nutshell, is why Christianity fails.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free" - Goethe

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"NOT ALL CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THE SAME THINGS"


Shouldn't they though? Wasn't that the whole point of the Jesus experiment, to get everyone on the same page?

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"It's not forgive or forget. "


Why not? Why would someone want to spend eternity with a being who murders millions on a whim? Out of fear instead of reverence?




"As I stated, it would be a sin-less environment with billions of people in it. Aside from that it's open to interpretation, but likely there is lots of harmony, peace, joy, and positive things going on. No sins, so no hate, no violence, etc etc etc"


Sounds like your interpretation of Heaven is basically Earth without any hate or violence. Nice thought, but is it even realistic? How can that even be possible if everyone is comprised of spirit energy?

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In order to be sin-free you would have to be free-will-free. It cannot be imagined that out of the billions of people in paradise not even one would sin given the chance. So you would have to lack free will, id est be a puppet of god. I think it can be safely presumed that man was given free will by "stealing" the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Free will also means that you can choose to be evil, so by not knowing evil and be totally innocent you certainly lack free will; so, again, you are a puppet of the creator. So man was not given free will by God, he rather stole it from him.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

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Adam and Eve did not know they we being 'evil' or committing any sin since they hadn't eaten from the Tree of Knowledge to have that knowledge. All they did in their minds was to commit a simple disobedience. Certainly not something worth punishing all of mankind for all eternity.

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In order to be sin-free you would have to be free-will-free.


- Not true, according to the bible, those who choose Christ are given a new sinless body similar to His, enabling believers to have free will and yet be without sin.

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city."

"Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life."

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Why would I want to spend eternity with an entity responsible for wholesale slaughter of human beings - "innocent" as well as "guilty" - throughout history? or who was so unimaginative that he resorted to the tabloidesque charade of becoming "human" just to be "executed" - temporarily - to save us from sin?


- Because in the greater context of His Living Words, He is love.

He asks you these questions, challenges you to prove Him wrong:

“Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.

“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone — while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

“Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb, when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness, when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place, when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt’?

“Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment. The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken.

“Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep? Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness? Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?

Tell me, if you know all this.

“What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?

Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!

“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail, which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle?

What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?

Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm, to water a land where no one lives, an uninhabited desert, to satisfy a desolate wasteland and make it sprout with grass?

Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew? From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen?

“Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orion’s belt? Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs?

Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth?

“Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water?

Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’? Who gives the ibis wisdom or gives the rooster understanding?

Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens when the dust becomes hard and the clods of earth stick together?


“Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in a thicket?

Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?

“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!”

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You're coming at this from a slightly odd perspective for me.

My belief or otherwise in god and Jesus doesn't depend on what I have to do as a result, or on what happens after I die. Those things are irrelevant.

I don't believe in Jesus or god because there is no evidence for them. Simple as that. If you want me to believe in them, then you need to show me evidence that they are real. If you can then I will believe, whether it is easy or not. If you can't then I won't.

I should add, if you could somehow provide proof then I would become a believer, but I would most emphatically NOT become a worshipper or follower. Quite the reverse, actually.

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You're coming at this from a slightly odd perspective for me.

My belief or otherwise in god and Jesus doesn't depend on what I have to do as a result, or on what happens after I die. Those things are irrelevant.

I don't believe in Jesus or god because there is no evidence for them. Simple as that. If you want me to believe in them, then you need to show me evidence that they are real. If you can then I will believe, whether it is easy or not. If you can't then I won't.

I totally agree with this. My lack of belief is a conclusion I've come to, not a decision I've made. I can't simply decide to start believing in heaven, I'd need to see some kind of evidence or be convinced by a compelling argument.

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My lack of belief is a conclusion I've come to, not a decision I've made. I can't simply decide to start believing in heaven, I'd need to see some kind of evidence or be convinced by a compelling argument.
Exactly.

I wrote in a similar thread once, that it's like asking us to "believe" some unseen color (maybe called...pendelet) (?) is the most beautiful color in the universe....when we've never seen it.

How can one pledge to believe in something....that one has absolutely no direct experience of/with, or indication of?


.

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I'm not here to convert. It's just a what if scenario that needs faith to work, or in clearer defined words a confident belief in something that there is no material proof for. And as said above, some christians actually believe the scenario I propose.

But to address your proposal, there is no material direct evidence of God's existence, but there is also obviously no material proof that God doesn't exist. I could care less about debates on the subject because as I said, it's impossible to prove God exists or doesn't exist. Everything anyone says in a debate on the subject can be run around or interpreted in a way where no side can win, aka there is no clear evidence for either to be proven whether some thickheaded christians or thickheaded atheists feel to think otherwise.

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In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence.

- Irving Copi

This statement can also be known as "modus tollens"

What I have written above is the why/how science works today in developing hypothesis and eventually theories. I do not about about God, but evidence, leading to discoveries and inventions is at the moment, giving me good house to live in, proper clothes to wear and most importantly these technologies to better understand the nature in fastest possible way.

To answer your question:
I would rather not believe in eternal, happy, sin free life because that would make me stop making any progress anymore and this life I am living will be completely meaningless, compared to eternal life that I would know I will be living in.

The most powerful entity for me at the moment is time. If someone comes to me says that time is meaningless, when why live with all the pain surrounding us? Why should I just keep racing with time from waking up in morning till the night? And if someday, I realize that my whole life is reality TV show, to eventually get judged by someone called "GOD", after watching each and every scene of what I thought to be free personal life, that's when I would feel cheated and would rather die then, than living with someone sick like that. Hence, I choose not believe by choice.

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The most powerful entity for me at the moment is time


In the Quran there is a surah where GOD mention time.

By time, Indeed, mankind is in loss, Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience. (Surah Al-Asr)


For more information on this surah: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Asr

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I do not understand what your argument is here. I think almost all philosophical or metaphorical books out there have some mentions of time somewhere. That does not mean that I have agree on all of them. Here's what believe time is:

It is a dimension in space, which we perceive as the fourth dimension. The time dimension helps us to recognize the order in which events have happened. And as far as we know, from second law of thermodynamics, we have a concept of something called the "arrow of time", to understand the flow of time.

I know these because I read it in a lot of books that mention "time". But the difference is that, the things written in these books, I can verify myself by setting up experiments and tests and see for myself. Where as books like Quran or Bible, I have so far found zero experiments that I test in my lab and come up with a consistent or conclusive evidence to anything.

If you are also interested, I can give you the list of books/journals/papers/thesis/dissertation that you can read for yourself to be able to do experiments in your lab too.

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it's impossible to prove God exists or doesn't exist
Well, you can prove he exists if he ever drops in to show his face.

Maybe even a voice with great knowledge from the sky would do.

So far, your god is rather silent.


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it's impossible to prove God exists or doesn't exist


It's also impossible to prove that pink unicorns do or don't exist, but just because you can't doen't mean that they should be accepted as real...

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free - Goethe

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Would that mean as long as I have a strong belief in god/jesus and yet lived a life or pure murder and mayhem I can still get into heaven?

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I wonder if the OP would substitute Allah, Vishnu, Jupiter, or Odin, for Jesus in his basic Pascal's-wager thesis. Or even Santa Claus or the Wizard of Oz. By his logic someone would have nothing to lose by believing in these, yet possibly something to gain. Why not just believe in every god/spirit that mankind has ever told of, just in case one or more of them happen to be truly existing?

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"By his logic someone would have nothing to lose by believing in these, yet possibly something to gain."


Exactly.

"Why not just believe in every god/spirit that mankind has ever told of, just in case one or more of them happen to be truly existing? "

As long as they aren't conflicting or you can logically think of a way for them to co-exist, absolutely. For some philosophies this is possible, others it isn't.

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[deleted]

Never say never.

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Why not just believe in every god/spirit that mankind has ever told of, just in case one or more of them happen to be truly existing?


- It is interesting to note that the bible gives testimony to the falsehood of the myths and idolatry laden cults of the ancients, claiming that only one great God, unseen and nameless, created all and loves all in His creation. This was certainly a unique belief from antiquity, as all other religions fell short in their spiritual power versus the omnipotent God of Abraham - and virtually none remain as a major force of faith above Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

I think it better to stick with your Pascal reference:

1."God is, or He is not"

2. A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.

3. According to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.

- The bible does offer information, however.

4. You must wager (it is not optional).

- This is a fascinating truth, there is no way to avoid this, since the possibility of the existence (or non-existence) of God faces each of us because the information about God permeates all of society at every level.

5. Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.

- Pascal makes a great point here: if you are wrong and God does not exist, what did you lose by learning how to live a life striving to imitate Jesus, improving yourself, and helping others (however, it is written that: "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied")? If you are right and God does exist, you gain the extended blessings promised to believers in the afterlife.

6. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.

7. But some cannot believe. They should then 'at least learn your inability to believe...' and 'Endeavour then to convince' themselves.

God promises that if you seek Him diligently you will find Him, it takes only a miniscule amount of faith, as little as a mustard seed. It will be more likely a subjective experience, only for you, though others may participate as well. God won't be limited in how He chooses to reveal Himself to you.

When He does, if you are seeking Him as determinedly as you would a romantic pursuit or other passion-driven undertaking, He WILL appear to you in some way that will cause you to believe in Him.

I challenge you to take that first step of faith and personally experience the true God of the universe.

And remember, the Apostle wisely wrote: "God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

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Yes, you'd get in beacause in this scenario God is infinitely forgiving.

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This is like saying "if I told you there was a big box of gold buried at the end of your garden would you dig it up?"

The answer would be the same. You are assuming that your claim would automatically be true. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.



Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.

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Didn't anyone see the life of pi? In it, the child asks why he can't believe in every religion and his father responds... (can't give this away ;) )

Also, after that his father made a rather interesting proposition which he says start with rational thinking (sorry to give away). Look, GOD has given us intellect, my friends...why not use it to search for GOD? This is assuming that you believe that GOD exists. If you don't then, only GOD can help you.

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Look, GOD has given us intellect, my friends...why not use it to search for GOD? This is assuming that you believe that GOD exists. If you don't then, only GOD can help you.


I know you are Muslim, Raif, so this may not apply to your own preferred deity and holy book. However for it's part the Bible actually has little, if anything, to say about reason, the handmaiden of intelligence, instead recommending faith and obedience. Ultimately, all that many atheists ask for is to make an informed choice as to whether any god exists. After all, intellect - God-given or not - requires a reliable base upon which to work, and is not the same as intuition which is something the faithful too often use as substitute. In the meantime, at least for those of us who use this faculty to seek the truth, only to find the answers lacking or unproven, overwhelming probability of negativity will have to do.




Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.

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Well, comparing Christian and Islam, I do think that the christians do require more faith because they say Jesus is GOD while Islam only say GOD is GOD.

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Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.


- Faith flies you into the loving arms of God.

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Faith flies you into the loving arms of God.


Faith is belief without evidence - it flies you into the arms of ignorance.





None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free - Goethe

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Faith is belief without evidence - it flies you into the arms of ignorance.


- Actually, faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Faith is trusting in a desirable outcome even when there is no empirical evidence to ensure its inevitability.

If you choose not believe God's Word, you are free in that choice. To choose to believe Him expands the opportunity for more revelation i.e. more evidence is provided as one takes the initial steps of faith. God is willing to provide more wisdom, more information, more revelation, more knowledge, less ignorance.

But it begins with trust, faith, hope - and more importantly, love.

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Faith is trusting in a desirable outcome even when there is no empirical evidence to ensure its inevitability.


Since you are without evidence, you are ignorant of facts.

Religious faith has resulted in the death of millions, murders that continue worldwide. That's not a faith-based conclusion, that is a fact.

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free - Goethe

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Faith makes you shoot someone in church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_George_Tiller

Faith tells you to ram cars at 100mph
http://jalopnik.com/5101888/man-rams-womans-car-at-100-mph-claims-god- told-him-to-do-it






Panzer vor!

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"You change your non-belief in God to a strong faithful belief in God/Jesus in exchange for "free eternal life in heaven"

Well if I have to change my non-belief to a belief then I would not consider it a "FREE" eternal life in heaven. So, no.

If there's a heaven and a God and God is all forgiving then he should forgive me and let me into heaven even if I'm an atheist/ignostic/agnostic etc. Shouldn't he?

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"If there's a heaven and a God and God is all forgiving then he should forgive me and let me into heaven even if I'm an atheist/ignostic/agnostic etc. Shouldn't he? "

If everybody is at equal footing, for example all humans are atheist, then perhaps it would be just for GOD to forgive everyone. However since GOD did and does intervene in people's beliefs in the sense that he made himself known through prophets and scriptures etc, that changed how forgiveness is given. Since he has made himself known, then it is up to us to accept him or not, and those that accept GOD, more or less will be forgiven and those that don't... well, only GOD knows. In this scenario, you don't expect heaven to be given to both believers and non-believers, right?

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Then I wouldn't call him an ALL forgiving God... he's a selective forgiving God, not all forgiving.

If he is all forgiving he should forgive me for not believing him or not accepting him.

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If GOD is like you say he is ie all forgiving regardless of what we do, I think we'll all be in heaven right now but there it is - us living right here on earth being tested whether we are rightfully among the righteous. I guess we'll just have to earn heaven if we really want it.

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I find your theology of our limited time on this planet to "prove" our righteousness to your God silly.

Modern neuroscience has shown over and over again that our brains and emotional abilities do not finish maturing until we are in our 20s. So, when the 16 year old gang-banger gets killed before even having a chance to fully mature, before he's "found" your God, according to you, he gets sent to hell. Not very just, is it? Not very logical, is it? Not very anything.

I have 2 sons, raif. One has been a good kid all of his life. Active in church, responsible, financially secure (as one can be with student debt), respectful, etc. The other has been "probematical". Drugs, in and out of jail several times, can't manage a dollar if he had to do so and he does have to. Respects nothing. But you know what? I won't give up on him. If I do have something in me that lives on after I die, I still won't. I won't artificially chain him to a "test" limited to either his or my life on this earth. I won't cast him off for all of eternity. Unlike your God.

Your God sets this artificial time limit of our lifetime - regardless of its length or what happens to us during it - as our test. He allows us to die at all ages without same chances as everyone else. He'll save the 105 year old man who hated him for 104 years, 364 days, because on his last day he became "righteous" but send to hell the 13 year old who was cursing him for not saving his parents in the tsunami that killed them and another 250,000 people not one minute before he dies.

Your God may ultimately be just, but not in the way you describe him to be.

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Don't presume I have all the answers. What I presented was just at some general scenario which hopefully applies to all. Of course there are case to case basis where my tiny human mind would be overwhelmed. Imagine billions upon billions of cases GOD has to judge but he is able manage all of them easily and with justice.

In the end, we try our hardest to be safe ie to follow whatever GOD wishes and try to leave whatever GOD despises. Talking about children, I too have some and we are responsible for them at least until they reach puberty. Of course by then, as you stated they are still quite young, so I believe until they get work and marry, only then we can truly breathe a little. Even then, we try help whatever we can so that they can be good citizens and contribute to society.

I'd like to believe every soul has been given the chance by GOD to do good and if they chose otherwise then only GOD will be the judge of them.

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[deleted]

Exactly but not quite Magic(err).

See this link http://linda-islam.blogspot.com/2011/02/this-world-is-but-illusion.html

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raif-1 has made many fallacies here, which I feel compelled to point out.

"However since GOD did and does intervene in people's beliefs in the sense that he made himself known through prophets and scriptures etc, that changed how forgiveness is given. Since he has made himself known, then it is up to us to accept him or not, and those that accept GOD, more or less will be forgiven and those that don't... well, only GOD knows. In this scenario, you don't expect heaven to be given to both believers and non-believers, right?"

The problem is that many different scriptures and prophets exist, and each religion considers every other religion's scriptures and prophets to be man-made lies. Why should an atheist regard ANY of them as true? Are you, raif-1, prepared for the slimmest possibility that it could turn out that Islam and the Quran are manmade frauds/mistakes and that something like Shinto could be the correct way to God?

[a discussion of possible damning of children follows]

Some religions say that there is an "age of accountability" that God does not hold ANYONE who dies before the age of, what--8, 10, 13?--accountable for sin, thus anyone who dies at this age goes to Heaven automatically.

The fairness or lack thereof, in this scenario, is a catch-22. Advocates of this view can't abide the idea that God would send children to Hell, yet the scenario that someone could be damned by dying at the wrong time is just as barbaric a theology. Hypothetical case in point, using 12 as the crucial age: if a pair of Mundurucu twins from an isolated jungle village, which never heard of the true faith of God, grow to the age of 11 years, 364 days, when one dies of malaria, then that one will go straight to Heaven for not having been "accountable" for sin, yet the other twin, who held out for 5 additional days before succumbing, has reached that age and must go to Hell. Can anyone condone such an unfair system? Yet the only alternative is to damn legions of helpless babies who happened to snuff it. That's the catch-22.

One Christian on this very board defended God's infanticidal command to Joshua at Jericho by explaining that the Jerichovian babies would have grown up to be damnable sinners, so God and Joshua were mercifully sending these babies to Heaven before their souls could be jeopardised.

So Heaven/Hell theology has given religious psychos everywhere a carte blanche for child-killing.

This also gives the lie to Christian and Islamic claims that "trials and tribulations on Earth are test to see if we're ready for Heaven." If dead children, stillborns, abortions, and miscarriages, which cumulatively amount to 95% or perhaps even 99% of all people who have ever existed, can get into Heaven without ever having lived on Earth at all, then what is the purpose of life on Earth, other than to possibly be damned?

Why, one professor asked, if this loophole exists, would not God simply cause ALL humans to die before the relevant age, thus assuring the salvation of 100% of the populace? Wouldn't that be much more efficient and foolproof?

"Don't presume I have all the answers. What I presented was just at some general scenario which hopefully applies to all. Of course there are case to case basis where my tiny human mind would be overwhelmed. Imagine billions upon billions of cases GOD has to judge but he is able manage all of them easily and with justice."

This is another trap that theists fall into. They insist that God is good, but whenever a cruel theology or an inconvenient fact comes along, say "we don't know" why he does something. But declaring anyone "good" requires some understanding of his motives, so if you don't know why he does anything, then you can't confidently claim that he's good!

"In the end, we try our hardest to be safe ie to follow whatever GOD wishes and try to leave whatever GOD despises. Talking about children, I too have some and we are responsible for them at least until they reach puberty. Of course by then, as you stated they are still quite young, so I believe until they get work and marry, only then we can truly breathe a little. Even then, we try help whatever we can so that they can be good citizens and contribute to society."

My loving atheist parents raised me to be a good, decent member of the community, and they did this without referring to the whims of any deity. I hope I've fulfilled their plans.

"I'd like to believe every soul has been given the chance by GOD to do good and if they chose otherwise then only GOD will be the judge of them."

This is another trap. Whenever the question comes up, "what about someone who has been isolated with no chance of a missionary coming to tell this person what God really wants?", then theists will often say "I believe that God has made himself known to all peoples in all lands," or something to say that people in the remotest jungles have been contacted by God. But doesn't this make proselytising and missionarying unnecessary and redundant? Why do people continue to send preachers to obscure lands to teach the natives what, by this logic, the natives already know? Do these theists not trust their God to keep his promise of universal information? The logic can't be tortured much more before it all comes crumbling down.

http://linda-islam.blogspot.com/2011/02/this-world-is-but-illusion.htm l

Most religions make the claim that there is an afterlife, but again, there are so many different versions, with none proven to be correct, that they all cancel each other out.

"Marge, what if we picked the wrong religion? Every time we go to church we make God madder and madder!"

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WOW. Thank you for looking up my previous posts :). I can see how well you use the computer for searching. Yes, what you presented are some points to ponder but lets put them aside for now. Too much information at once is also not good. Take a back seat and try to answer the question, what if there is a GOD? Now, go do some more searching...

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What if there is a God? Well, as I love to repeat, there are so many conflicting descriptions of God that for all we know, only one or none are correct, and we have not enough info to precede further. But my favourite professor has advice to say about, what if God shows his true colours are they aren't pretty:

Even if a religion was true and the god it described actually existed, if it advocated immoral or evil doctrines the only ethical thing to do would be to refuse to follow it. If there are such beings as gods, they are bound by morality’s principles as surely as humans are; neither the certain existence nor the great power wielded by Adolf Hitler, for example, made obeying him the moral thing to do. Fortunately, we do not seem to be in any comparable dilemma, as there are strong evidential reasons, apart from any moral considerations, to believe that no form of theism is true. However, this and other moral arguments against religion give additional reason to be an atheist.

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Look. I'm sure you've heard time and time again that GOD is good. Well, he is. Only man from time to time, do bad things. Some say natural disaster is something bad that GOD did but I say, sometimes bad things happen is a way for GOD to remind us. Remember, we too sometime say "Spare the rod, spoil the child".
Now, why do we keep dwelling upon the bad natural disasters, famine, accidents, sickness etc ? Can't we see that GOD has also given us life, our senses, families, the world ? We cannot even count the blessings that GOD has given us but if sometimes the occasional bad happens, we blame GOD. Where is our shame and humility?

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sometimes bad things happen is a way for GOD to remind us. Remember, we too sometime say "Spare the rod, spoil the child".


Special pleading.

Now, why do we keep dwelling upon the bad natural disasters, famine, accidents, sickness etc ? Can't we see that GOD has also given us life, our senses, families, the world ?


The question is always why all-good, all powerful deity would allow misery to happen, either by inaction or in action.

if sometimes the occasional bad happens, we blame GOD. Where is our shame and humility?


The devoutly-challenged never blame god for their misfortune (unless they are about to lose their faith); they instead make excuses, ranging from "we were bad/doing things wrongly and deserved to be punished!" to "God sent these trials to make us stronger!" to "It was God's will!". For their part atheists will never blame a being which they strongly suspect does not exist. They simply ask why no action was taken to protect the innocent, the devout or to warn the prayerful from an alleged god with the power to do so.

You say God is 'good' btw, does this mean things are always good because he says so?


Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.

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What is meant by good is that he always has the best interest for us. For example, if we work hard at our business, whether is flourishes or not, the outcome is always in our best interest whether we like it or not. GOD knows what is best for us whether we (yeah yeah).

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What is meant by good is that he always has the best interest for us. For example, if we work hard at our business, whether is flourishes or not, the outcome is always in our best interest whether we like it or not.


Presumably those who die from childhood cancer, or in tsunamis must be the best looked after of all.


Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.

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Yes, there is a lesson to be learnt from all of this. Always look on the bright side and be positive. But then, we are all doing that already, aren't we?

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Always look on the bright side


Eric Idle is 71 today.


Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.

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Yeah, Eric Idle link. :)

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/13785.Eric_Idle

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Re the tsunamis etalia, why doesn't God find a way to "teach" people that doesn't involve innocent collateral damage?

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Can't answer you there but for sure we have to be patient and persevere when such things happen.

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You'd think God would at least send humanity a text message in response to the disaster, to explain the reason and meaning. Tsunamis etc. seem to me to be the ultimate proof that God is either impotent, uncaring, malevolent, or just plain nonexistent.

The irony is when survivors of a disaster thank God for their survival, not realising that by extrapolated logic, God must have caused or at least enabled the disaster in the first place. Wouldn't a more praiseworthy action on his part been to have prevented the disaster in before it became a problem? The disaster-God is like a firefighter who sets a fire himself, or at least allows it to be set, then comes prominently rushing to the rescue so he can get credited for heroics.

In the story of King Kong, the title character kidnaps the blonde to take back to his lair as a pet. A dinosaur steals her from him with the intent of eating her, so Kong rushes after them and rescues her from the dinosaur. The blonde then becomes Kong's biggest fan, repeatedly praising him for saving her life. In her trauma she misses the fact that Kong was responsible for her being in danger in the first place, by his initial abduction of her and subsequent negligence in leaving her unprotected in a dinosaur-filled valley. As I see it, Kong does not deserve her praise, although what happens to him afterward is just as senseless and unjustifiable, but not quite relevant to this topic.

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Thank you for your views jmarkoff2. Here is another view:

http://www.renaissance.com.pk/MarRefl2y6.htm

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God reveals in His Word that the Original Sin brought the entire world into bondage to sin, so there are inexplicable disasters that happen to everyone.

He also reveals that His love is there to sustain us, even in death or disaster. We simply are to choose to believe Him. Simple, but not necessarily easy, if you demand that everything makes sense first.

Faith is the first step in the journey to greater revelation, understanding, and knowledge. There are a lot of things that don't make sense based on human reasoning, but it doesn't negate God's existence.

Also, since He created everything, all life returns to Him and He chooses how to treat each soul, based on their faith and deeds.

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But declaring anyone "good" requires some understanding of his motives, so if you don't know why he does anything, then you can't confidently claim that he's good!


- Actually, one can simply believe Him at His Word: He says He is good, so we choose to believe Him. One can be willing to accept on faith that He understands goodness better than we do because He is God. It can also be reasonably argued that the bible indeed provides "...some understanding of his motives...", if not a complete understanding of all of His motives.

The bible clearly states that in being God He has the right not to reveal all things, but that His grace i.e. unwarranted favor and love towards mankind - is sufficient for us to trust in Him. He proves that love through Christ's death on the cross for all mankind, among other revelations of His divine goodness.

If this is insufficient for you to choose to believe in Him, fair enough, you certainly can choose not to believe.

Personally, I choose faith in Him. No philosophy or ideas from any other belief system or atheist that I've ever heard even remotely approaches the amazing love and goodness of God one can experience and share with others as revealed in the bible.

But it takes a small step of faith. And faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see with our naked eye or can draw a conclusion from based on limited human reason.

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Then I wouldn't call him an ALL forgiving God... he's a selective forgiving God, not all forgiving. If he is all forgiving he should forgive me for not believing him or not accepting him.


- He requires that you first believe in Him and his Word before you obtain His forgiveness, so in that sense, you are right: He is not an "...ALL forgiving God..."

However, He makes it clear that His perfect will is for ALL to be forgiven. The only requirement is that we believe Him at His Word, and place our faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately, many are called but few are chosen - because they choose to reject God and His promises.

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If I told you that there is no hell and all you had to do to get into heaven was switch your non-belief in Jesus/God to a strong faith/belief in him as God, would you do it for eternal life?


If I told you that all you had to do to get a million dollars was to follow a leprechaun to the end of the rainbow, would you do it for a million dollars?

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