Neither, but if I had to pick...David.
Strength: He genuinely liked Michael and appreciated him.
Weakness: A bit too controlling.
Sorry, but I have a plethora of reasons for not liking Ben. I am kinda going to rant..Sorry! :)
Ben rant:
Originally I kind of liked Ben (yawn), but as his and Michael's relationship grew, I've come to truly dislike him. I'm still reeling from the fact that Michael actually married him, after the way he has treated Michael. Yup, Michael "the doormat" returned in season four. How sad after all the growing he has done. After all the crap Ben has thrown at him, he still marries the man. Don't get me wrong; Ben does seem to love Michael in his own way. But it seems to be a more one-sided, selfish love. As long as Michael loves him unconditionally and looks up to him, worships and admires him, everything is just hunky-dory. Besides being exceedingly boring, I find Ben an egotistical, self-centered know-it-all. I also think there are times that he is emotionally and verbally abusive to Michael.
1) He has verbally abused and humiliated Michael when all Michael wanted to do was surprise the man he loved with a birthday party.
2) He was mean and both emotionally and verbally abusive during his steroid episode, not to mention physically abusive to Brian.
3) He never told Michael about having slept with Brian. Instead, once again, Michael had to find out in a public, humiliating way. (what makes me ** off is the way Brian and Justin acted as well. They were so **ing callous about it.)
3) He never told Michael about having slept with Brian. Instead, once again, Michael had to find out in a public, humiliating way.
4) He is repeatedly telling Michael that he could never "understand" about his HIV status. Michael...the man who was raised with an HIV+/AIDS family member, plus a best friend who is a man ** and if not safe for a second could have contracted something. Michael has been through it all before Ben even contracted it.
5) He basically forced Hunter on Michael. Don't get me wrong; I love Hunter. But forcing responsibility for the life of another human, and a teenage prostitute at that, is just plain wrong. Lucky for everyone things turned out well.
6) Ben asked Michael to read his book, and then belittled his education and intelligence when Michael didn't like it."You're more Justice League than Ivy League."
7) His jealousy over Michael's success was palpable. So the minute some young nutcase stroked his ego, he distances himself from his "family" and is ready to hop into bed with the man. As far as I'm concerned Ben cheated on Michael, even if it was only mentally. I still believe that the only reason he didn't follow through and go to bed with that nut was because he found out the guy was a bug-chaser. He didn't stop because of his love or loyalty to Michael.
8) Then he doesn't even have the balls to confess to Michael. He writes a story about it. I truly believe that if Michael was as dumb as Ben believes he is and never caught the connection, Ben wouldn't have told him.
And through all this, I don't think Ben ever really came out and said the words "I'm sorry" to Michael. The closest he came was when Michael apologized after their fight in season 4, and Ben mumbled (very unconvincingly and insincerely in my book), "Me, too." If he has, I can't remember any apologies.
Sad thing is, everyone accuses Brian of being self-centered. Well, I think Ben has him beat. At least Brian is honest about it. Ben puts on the front of being a goody-two-shoes, but is completely selfish and uncaring of Michael's feelings for the most part.
And though I love Hunter, but taking him in could have been dicey. Not all street kids turn out to be as great as him.
From the beginning, when he gave no consideration to the fact that anyone would be fearful and hesitant about beginning a sexual relationship with an HIV+ partner, his behavior has been an indicator of his true character. At first, I accepted the standard excuses but no longer. Any time he had bad news or was unhappy about something, Michael and their relationship suffered.
Ben found out about his high viral load, he blew up at Michael in front of everyone at his surprise party. Ben fell ill and landed in the hospital; as a result, he planned to leave for Tibet without discussion, presenting the decision to Michael as a done deal. After encouraging Michael to be there for his best friend in a time of emotional turmoil, he threatened to move out after a week without giving the situation a chance to settle down or discuss it with Michael. When his ex-lover died of AIDS, he withdrew and made the decision to take a dangerously mood altering drug on his own, keeping that fact from his lover. He got violent when Brian confronted him for using. Only Michael threatening to infect himself was sufficient to make him stop. He constantly reminded Michael that he couldn't possibly understand because he isn't positive, even though his uncle had been HIV+ for years and almost died from AIDS before he ever met Ben. He even shut Michael out of the grieving process by not wanting Michael to attend the services for Paul with him. Add on top of that Ben's petty jealousy over Michael's fathering a child.
When Ben wanted to help a teenage street hustler, he brought him into their home against Michael's wishes, showing a lack of respect for Michael and putting him in potential danger once again. When Michael did not like Ben's second book and gave him valid criticisms later echoed by the publisher, Ben insulted Michael's intelligence. When Hollywood expressed interest in Michael's comic book, Ben insulted the director's choices of subject matter, belittling Michael's work in the process. In his discontent, Ben accepts the advances of a young sycophant, only stopping when his admirer reveals himself as a bug chaser. Does Ben apologize for this or even personally own up to it?
No, he writes a story about it for Michael to read. In fact, Ben never apologizes for anything.
Vic died and Ben was not concerned for Michael. His focus was on Hunter's reaction instead of his lover's grief. He was even more interested in pointing out Brian's supposed faults than comforting Michael. It is telling that Brian is the only one who showed true concern for Michael over Vic's death. And again, Ben taunted Michael with his inability to understand how anyone who is positive feels. It's a wedge that will never go away. And he constantly used that.
The absolute final straw in Ben's self absorption was his disrespectful proposal to Michael. Yes, I said disrespectful. Marriage was never discussed between them; no commitment other than living together and fostering Hunter had ever been discussed between them. Marriage was not something that Michael had EVER considered an option for himself. But Ben, in his desire to get exactly what he wants and to have his safe place assured, pops the question on a bus to Toronto with a 24 hour window for Michael to answer and do the deed. This is an unfair position to put Michael in as well as being totally disrespectful of Michael. I mean, if he says no, how do they go back to their current arrangement? Michael has a vivid memory of what happens when you tell your lover that you aren't ready. It's interesting that love never passed Michael's lips as being a reason for marrying. It was to prove a point. So after all the conflict, after Ben rebuffs his family and reneges on family commitments, after Ben comes within a hair's breath of **ing someone else, after Ben demeans and belittles his lover, Michael actually agrees to spend the rest of his life with Ben.
reply
share
dergil27
12 years ago
Wow. You have quite a long list of Ben's faults. I'll say upfront I greatly prefer Ben to David. But I agree with most of the "cons" you have listed against the man. His jealousy over Michael's "Rage" success and over the baby. His inability to take criticism from Michael. Even to the point of feeling the need to devalue his opinion. The steroid use. The way Ben's focus seemed to be entirely on Hunter when it was Michael who needed comfort after Vic's death. The way he shut Michael out when he was upset, as with Paul's death or the failure of his book, even when Michael tried to be supportive. His pressuring Michael into taking in a stray who really could have murdered them in their sleep. The way he regularly threw it up in Michael's face that he didn't understand because he wasn't positive. Michael really did take a lot of crap from Ben.
My pet peeve is the "White Party" incident. I still fume over the way Ben failed to tell Michael about the tryst with Brian even after Brian actually brought it up in front of Michael. Even if Michael was as stupid as some people on this board believe him to be, he would have made the connection eventually. Then, after the issue is forced, Ben doesn't even take Michael aside, just says it right out in front of everyone. And it was indeed humiliating. It is to Michael's credit that he took it so well, at least in public. Ben deserved a punch in the face for that stunt. Or at least a severe dressing down.
But I dissagree with some of your points. Ben did make plans to go to Tibet without consulting Michael. But he made it clear that he wouldn't go if Michael didn't want him to. With the bugchaser, it's not so much dissagreement as it is an alternative interpretation. When Ben is with Anthony, it is unclear if he had planned to sleep with the man and decided against it only after he knew his motivations. Or if he was seriously considering it when mention of "the gift" caused him to make up his mind in a hurry. Not trying to whitewash Ben here. And can't argue with those who believe he would have went through with it. Not sure myself which option I favor. But regardless of Ben's level of guilt, he did tell Michael when he could have said nothing. Some might consider it cowardly to tell him in the form of a story, but he did tell him. Also dissagree that Ben railroaded Michael into marriage. At no time does Michael express concern that a "no" will cause Ben to dump him as David did. And Michael stated that marriage never came up because it wasn't,and still isn't in most of this country, even an option.
At the risk of being redundant, I agree partly or totally with most of your points. Perhaps the many who see Ben as boring, or too saintly somehow missed all these flaws. But all these faults are what make me like the character and make him more human. And these same faults are why I am utterly stymied when some posters on this board don't understand what Ben sees in Michael. As he himself said, Ben is lucky to have found Michael.
reply
share
Ricky_Christy
12 years ago
If you want me to be honest, people who say Michael would not last with Brian because Brian would cheat I considered null and void.
David cheated on him and so did Ben. As I said, had Anthony not said anything about wanting to become HIVPositive, Ben would have went ahead and just screwed the boys mind out of him. So, obviously if they had ever gotten together and Brian cheated, most likely Michael would have forgiven him.
I agree with you. The thing is when Michael finds out about the 'White Party' tryst, you can tell Brian looks sick to his stomach and so does Michael.
And you're right, I feel a lot of people just feel threatened by Michael's position in Brian's life that they feel the need to degrade him just because they took the romantic pairings way too seriously for a FICTIONAL show about FICTIONAL CHARACTERS.
I will admit up front..the only people I hated on the show was Debbie and Ben. I love Justin, but I felt like he got away with too much on the show and he was never caught out except for the Ethan crap.
Michael stupid-uh...yeah, I laugh at that kind of stuff aimed towards Michael. If Michael were so stupid, he wouldn't be running his own shop, selling one of comic, which he loves, has two kids(Hunter and Jenny), and unlike what some people believe, created and wrote 'Rage'. I don't know how people got to think 'Rage' was Justin's work. He was the artist.
I will say this right now. I don't ship Brian/Justin or Brian/Michael. I just didn't care for it. Though I do tend to look at the threads and webpages for both ships. And Brian/Justin shippers hate on Michael and Lindsay badly and for the stupidest reasons. On the Brian/Michael pages, no one bashes Ben or Justin. There is a few admittedly, but it's nothing compared to Michael and Lindsay bashing on Brian/Justin pages. And quite frankly I find it sad that people take the pairings to the extreme that they feel the need to demean a fictional character and best friends at that.
But, I feel the only realistic characters you would find in life is Michael, Ted, and Hunter. I have a friend that was in the same situation as Hunter.
reply
share
dergil27
12 years ago
Only a few bash Ben on the Brian/ Michael pages? The few B/M pages I've seen snipe a bit at Justin, hate on Debbie, and adsolutely hammer Ben. But this is understandable as both Justin and Ben are obstacles to that "ship's" hoped for pairing. But Michael was not a threat to Brian and Justin. So the excessive Michael bashing on the B/J boards is, as far as I can see, totally uncalled for.
Agree that Ben is lucky to have Michael. But I don't agree that Michael is too good for Ben. I like them as a couple despite, or maybe because of the problems they have had. For the two of them to be happy with smooth sailing all the way would be boring. Even you described the early days of "good Ben" as a yawn. But if you like Michael so much that you think he could have done better, I can't argue with that. For that is a matter of personal opinion.
But strongly dissagree that David is preferable to Ben. And the characterization of David as a bit too controlling is akin to declaring that the Gulf of Mexico is a bit too wet.
Sorry for the late reply. But I have been without a computer for the last seven days.
reply
share
Ricky_Christy
12 years ago
Haha it's alright. I hate being without a computer.
The thing is as I said in a previous post. Any relationship could have had happened in the show. That is why I think it is just so damn effin retarded and stupid when both ships (B/M and B/J) go and say 'No, this ship won't happen.' huh anything is possible on a show. I would and will never be as a person that goes that route. Plus it is a bit like saying, 'You like red? You can't like the color red because...*insert dumb stupid reason that make no sense.*
I never see the need for bashing a ship or a character. I think B/J and B/M shippers who do bash Michael/Justin are quite frankly stupid. And to me, it just points out that they know the person they're anti at is important to Brian. Both Michael and Justin were. It doesn't matter if it's friendship or romance. Depending on a indiviual they might think friendship is more important than romance or another person might think romance is more important than friendship. Others can believe in love at first sight and the others can believe friendship can go into romance and wait years.
Hell, I could Brian/Emmett and Justin/Ted happening if you write a good plot and it happens believably. It's why I do believe Brian/Justin can be a couple, but it's just the way CowLip wrote their relationship out that I bothered me.
And to me, if you're going to bash a character, make it believable. I went to read a B/J multi-fic, however the person didn't put tags on it...the fic had Michael raping Justin -____- yea, because Michael raping Justin is in character? Nope. I read a Brian/Michael fic where they also didn't do tags and Justin kept purposely bumping into Brian/Michael dancing...I know Justin can act like a kid, but he isn't that kid-like.
In a way, Michael is a threat to the B/J relationship and Justin is a threat to the B/M relationship. That's just my opinion. The people on those ships will keep warring...though QaF has been off the air for a long time and it's getting old.
Michael kept forgiving him way too much. Sometimes, he should have let him stew. It took Michael being near death for both Ben and Brian to pull their heads outta their asses.
No character is perfect though. *beep* on a character is just plain dumb. As much as I don't like Ben or Debbie I wouldn't even bash them in my fics, if I ever did decide to write.
No character is too good over the other. So saying, 'Ben is too good/Ben is saint for putting up with Michael,' or 'Michael is too good for Ben' or 'Justin is perfect for Brian' and etc is just laughably funny to me. Because none of them are perfect or too good over the other.
-So the excessive Michael bashing on the B/J boards is, as far as I can see, totally uncalled for.
Thank you! Now see I can understand Lindsay, but Michael was straightforward about his dislike of Justin in S1 and his feelings. Lindsay is a whole 'nother ball park. I am not even going to get into that.
In the end, it's a FICTIONAL SHOW about FICTIONAL CHARACTERS. Why people get so hyped up over the whole ship thing is beyond me.
reply
share
katiedyd
12 years ago
hmm... um... what?
Well I don't really see too much war going on around this board. The only one who seems to be so hyped up over this lately is you.
reply
share
Ricky_Christy
12 years ago
lol nah! Not this is one. Trust me. :D I'm talking about in general. I don't really get hyped up about it. Just boggles my mind is all.
reply
share
Antigone78
12 years ago
You are brand new to IMDB, and it seems the fandom in general. The shipping wars were big, a DECADE ago. It hasnt been an issue, in any forum, in YEARS.
People straight out HATE Michael, because most believe his character turned into a self righteous prick, not because they feel he is a threat to Brian and Justin.
Seriously, if you want to stir up drama, at least catch up. For someone who doesnt get hyped up....kinda amazed by the epic long posts you constantly make, stirring up crap and telling us what to do and how we should react.
Um, I already did the shipping wars in 2004/5 on the sho boards and TWOP...amazingly, the fandom has existed w/o you, just fine....and no one is beating that dead horse any more. Michael hate is totally merited, on its own.
reply
share
dergil27
12 years ago
It might be easier to believe Michael-hate wasn't related to the Brian/Justin fans if almost all the animosity didn't come from that group.
reply
share
smc231
12 years ago
"It might be easier to believe Michael-hate wasn't related to the Brian/Justin fans if almost all the animosity didn't come from that group."
I think the Michael-hate is about Cowlip's intention to make him the "cute boy next door type" that he introduces himself as in the pilot episode. They went on to show he was a liar, exaggerated every slight into a drama, and had never grown up(more applicable to him than Brian and Lindsay's Peter Pan and Wendy??)
If they had left it for us to find out about him we would probably have accepted his flawed character as being human and had more sympathy for his unrequited love of Brian. Plus I think Hal Sparks lacked any real depth to his acting and gave a very on the surface performance- rarely showing any depth to Michael.
And yes Michael had his good side in his emotional support of his friends and family.
I also think his moving on from David to Ben was rushed. I realise the actor who played David decided not to continue after Season 1 but almost immediately Michael finds someone else. Again Michael's fan-worship of another "perfect hero" type comes into the dynamic. I think it took a long time to develop to a more real relationship but was always fragile given Ben and Michael's faults. I don't think criticising a character has to be because the critic falls into one camp or another. I happily call the writers on their inconsistencies re Brian and Justin but still think that on the whole they got a better deal in storylines and their acting was of a higher standard.
reply
share
dergil27
12 years ago
So you allow that Michael had a good side in his support of friends and family. We can agree on that anyway.
But your assertion that Michael should be hated because he didn't live up to the promised boy next door image of the pilot is tenuous to say the least. Even moreso on a program that doesn't seem to know the meaning of the word continuity. But if one does want to apply this, then it should apply to all the characters. None of the characters were as they appeared to be in the pilot, yet it's only Michael that is held to an ideal mapped out when the show was in it's earliest stages. Some even complain because he does not fit the model of his counterpart in the U.K. version. Here again, only Michael's character is held to this standard. Michael's not quite the character you were initially told he would be. So what. Do you really wish the creators had went with their original vision of the show? Which probably would have meant even more Michael and a lot less Justin. Why not complain about this as well?
Michael may have lied and exaggerated slights, but most of the others were also guilty of this. Yet, as usual, it's only Michael who is called out on it. And Michael did quite a bit of growing up on this show. Early on he was practically Brian's lapdog, unwilling and uninterested in doing anything without Brian's participation and approval. By the fifth season, Michael had his own home, his own business, a husband, and two children. Michael also lost his dependence on Brian, standing up to him when he accused Michael of turning Justin against him. He was even willing to cut Brian loose if his friend could not accept his new life on his terms.
As to Michael's transition from David to Ben being rushed. Don't know about this. How long should Michael wait between boyfriends? And we don't really know how much time passed between ep 201 and the 206 introduction of Ben. But in that time Michael moved back home, went through a reckless partying phase, got a job at the Big Q, quit that job, and took over ownership of a comic book store. This could have taken months, or mere weeks. But since we don't know the answer to this, there is no way to make any kind of judgment here.
Don't agree that Ben and Michael's relationship was fragile. This pair weathered a couple of severe tests and managed to get through them with little to no help from outside sources. But if you want to call the couple fragile, then as a B/J fan, this seems to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black. When Brian could not or would not give Justin what he wanted, Justin went out and found himself another man. Years later when their relationship reached another impasse, Justin was out the door again. And the series left off with the pair apparently breaking up just because Justin moved to New York City. Do believe that a plane trip to New York, easily affordable to Brian, would only take a couple hours. Yet this was reason enough for them to part ways. If Ben and Michael's relationship was fragile, then Brian and Justin's was downright decrepit.
About your sentence, "I happily call the writers.....". Not sure what you mean here. But generally it sounds like Brian and Justin are once again being held to a different, more indulgent standard than certain other characters on this show.
reply
share
katiedyd
12 years ago
But generally it sounds like Brian and Justin are once again being held to a different, more indulgent standard than certain other characters on this show.
This put viewers who happen to enjoy the Brian and Justin pairing or storyline and/or dislike the Michael character on trial thing is getting pretty tedious. Dude it's a tv show... sure maybe sometimes viewers will indulge certain characters more than others. That's what happens when you feel more inclined toward particular characters based on who you are as a person, your own interests and life experiences. Some people like the Michael character, some do not, some strongly dislike him. I'm all for tv show, movie or book discussions and I usually welcome and enjoy diverse opinions. However, when it starts to feel as though other viewers or readers resent or begrudge the feelings and reactions of others toward the story then it becomes apparent that it's being taken too personally. Nobody should ever have to justify or defend their reasons for feeling the way they do about certain characters. Dergil your most likely response will be that it isn't what you're doing and you are accepting however, I can't help but feel that the board has definitely moved in a trial lawyer laying out the case direction lately and it would be cool to get back to the interesting, more entertaining discussions.
reply
share
smc231
12 years ago
Their relationship was not fragile??? Michael retains affection(lust/love??) for Brian for a long way through the series!!! Ben would have slept with the bug chaser before the revelation of what the bug chaser wanted from him! Michael hated Hunter and Ben's defence of him initially!!! Ben was going to Burma(or somewhere similar) for 6 months without any great deep regret on his part!!!Ben resented Michael being able to father a child and he could not.
I realise you have a high opinion of Michael but you need to face some of the facts! I still believe the commitment between Brian and Justin was deeper and more real than Michael and Ben. Brian and Justin respect each other. Ben is very scathing of Michael and his lack of intellectualism. He treats him very shabbily over the book issue- I think most viewers felt sorry for Michael there.
I thought the pilot showed us fairly clearly Brian behind the scenes(the birth of Gus) and also Justin's devotion for Brian at that early stage(although it could be seen as a crush).
Of course all the characters had flaws- even I have one or two! But the transition for Michael was not so admirable- his custody battle over JR as an example. His rejection of Brian who he assures everyone will never change- and then calls him for not changing!!!
Try to convince me further that he is as good as you think he is!
reply
share
dergil27
12 years ago
I am not trying to convince you to like Michael. However, I do like him and believe that I have the right to say so, even if I am in the minority on this board. When someone put a pro, or actually more of a neutral, post up about Michael, you didn't hesitate to disparage his character(Here's a question, Oct 25 14.09:26). So, if you and others are allowed to attack Michael, so to speak, then I should be allowed to defend him.
Admit it wasn't nessessary to bring Brian and Justin into the "fragile" discussion. And usually, with one exception, I try to keep Brian and Justin out of Michael and Ben discussions and vice versa, unless the other poster brings them up first. But the other poster often brings up the other pair. So, it became "legal" to shoehorn B/J into the discussion when you mentioned the couple in your last sentence. And since the pair fit into the double standard motif of the post, I couldn't resist. Actually don't believe that either Ben and Michael or Brian and Justin have a fragile relationship. But of the two, Brian and Justin's is shown to be less solid. Still, none of this was needed and I probably should have left B/J out of that post.
No, Ben and Michael's relationship was not fragile. Agree with you about most of the problems you list between Ben and Michael. But this shows a couple who is not perfect, has had difficulties, and has even had some very serious issues. A fragile relationship is thin and easily broken. It can exist only when everything is going well and there are no problems to overcome. But as soon as there are hurdles to climb, it is over, often for good. A better example of a fragile relationshiop might be Ted and that man he met at church(Travis was it?). But despite a sizable list of problems between Ben and Michael, they worked through each problem in turn and remained a couple. Had their's been a fragile pairing, any one of the problems they had would have broken them up.
Understand that it's common for people to give more slack to characters they like than to those they don't. However the difference in tolerance between Michael and other qaf characters is exceptionally egregious. Brian and Justin's faults are addressed somewhat. But often excuses are made for them. Emmett and Ted are mostly ignored. But Michael's poor choices are sometimes given days of discussion. Usually about whether the man is just plain awful or if he is one of the worst people in the world. In short, while all qaf characters have flaws, it's only Michael's that are framed and hung up for display. And this is demonstrated near the end of your post. While you acknowledge that all the characters have flaws, it is only Michael's perceived faults that get a specific mention.
reply
share
smc231
12 years ago
Hi dergil27
I suppose I was discussing Michael because the thread is entitled "Dr. David or Ben?"
I don't see the relationship between Michael and Ben as strong. I don't see it lasting forever. I can see that the same can be argued for Brian and Justin. And Mel and Linds. My point is that all the characters have issues and flaws. I am addressing Ben and Michael because of this thread. I am happy to respond to a "Will Brian and Justin stay together" thread if one is started(I think we may have had one in the past?!).
Michael's "perceived" faults do exist. He has a nightmare mother (at times!!!), a father he has not been permitted to know, he has been kept as a young lad by his mother. He is unable to come out at work (whilst at the Big Q) and to top it all(pardon the expression!) the love of his life is not interested in him romantically and takes up with a young teenager.All these things have made him what he is.
Brian has nightmare parents, exploits Michael's feelings for him, "beeps" a young lad he has no intention of going on seeing, and can be rude and abusive and is selfish.
The difference is that Brian changes by the end of the journey. Michael does not. He may have a house, and Ben and two kids but he is not very mature. He still acts as he did at the beginning of the show. He is jealous of Justin all the way through despite being in relationships with David and Ben.
That's my point- I am not out to hate Michael- but I cannot wear rose-tinted glasses for him, or any of the characters.
reply
share
dergil27
12 years ago
I hope you're not suggesting that the only way anyone could like Michael would be to have a distorted picture of him. And didn't you once say something about finding it difficult to see Michael in a positive light? May be wrong about this and if so I apologize. But if I've remembered correctly, perhaps you are wearing rose colored glasses for Michael, only they are inverted. Not very good I know, but I can't think up a true opposite for the glasses thing.
I know Michael has faults. Only used the term perceived because of the flaws you listed. I don't know what "calls him for not changing!!!" means, and I don't fault Michael on the custody issue. But admit that even I was beyond annoyed with all the yelling, from both Michael and Melanie. Yes the man does things that are irksome to me. But since I am one of Michael's few supporters here and there are so many others happy to stick pins in him, I see no reason to volunteer a list of my own.
After some time you have finally listed a few of somebody other than Michael's faults. Brian's in this case. Good. But then you had to go and ruin it by adding a qualifier. To my mind, a qualifier is just a back door way of making excuses, as fans so often do for Brian.
And the excuse, "The difference is that Brian changes..." and "Michael does not.", is unsupportable. With the possible exception of Emmett, Brian changes the least of all the characters during the run of the series. Michael however, began as a club boy with an unhealthy devotion, coupled with a romantic interest in his best friend. So when Justin came along and took what Michael thought should be his, he was extremely hostile and jealous of the boy. And aside from his comic books, he had no life outside of his circle of friends and Brian in particular. He lived in an apartment with no outside obligations and had not had any serious romantic relationships. When the series left off Michael had been in two serious relationships and came to appreciate a different lifesyle from frequent clubbing and takeout. He also took on some of the financial responsibility for Vic and Debbie and later, the burden of two mortgages. Being in debt doesn't automatically make you more mature, but if you step up to the responsibility, you will grow up in a hurry. Michael's relationship with Brian and Justin also changed. By the end of the fourth season, and probably earlier, Michael ceased being jealous of Justin and stopped chasing after Brian. In the fifth season Michael was even a staunch supporter of the pair, and a friend to Justin. Michael's relationship with Brian changed from being one of semi-hero worship and unrequited love to one with a more equal footing. Michael also had his own life and his own family.
But suppose this excuse did have some credence to it. For the sake of discussion, what if Brian had changed and Michael hadn't throughout the show. By this I assume you mean Michael is still jealous of Justin and following after Brian, waiting for the man to f#*k him, or at least finish that hand job. While Brian has transformed into whatever it is you think he became. This does not waive all of Brian's a**hole actions over the previous four years. Nor does it mean an unchanging Michael deserves to have his shortcomings flagged to the exclusion of others. An excuse, accurate or not, is still just an excuse.
reply
share
smc231
12 years ago
You see Brian does change!! He is someone at the start who on the surface on first aquaintance you could utterly detest. He behaves terribly and selfishly and contributes to Michael's non-growth by leading him on. His initial treatment of Justin is fairly callous until Justin begins to worm his way in to Brian's life sexually. But Brian's opposition of the Stepford way of life is one I have sympathy with and in this he does not change which I find admirable. Brian could have made himself more lovable to everyone if he had gone along with everyone else's view of love, marriage and domesticity. He stayed true to his principles. He changed in that he realised he could love someone and still retain his integrity- he did not have to sell out. He allowed Justin to move in with him and was willing to make sacrifices after the bombing because he could not live without him. I believe he changed a great deal.
Michael continues with the lovable kid routine all the way through. He behaved appallingly over JR and frankly I don't think much of his parenting skills with either JR or Hunter. May seem romatic and heroic to run off with a young lad when the Police call but not very mature.
I see this as a series not a tribute to any one character. I just think that you are an exception to maybe drill down that deep into Michael's character. A lot of viewers cannot get past the surface spoilt little kid who has no life on his own- and it seemed that one of the reasons David and Ben liked him is because he comes over as a kid that they can both feel superior to- but yes he changed a little by the end. He made a contribution to the whole as did the other characters and we have all sounded off about Debbie, Mel and Linds as well!
Interesting discussion.
reply
share
Antigone78
12 years ago
I didnt hate Michael till S5.
S1 & 2, I quite adored him, in that special kinda way of his.
I never saw him as a romantic interest for Brian and as soon as the show felt comfy leaving its UK blueprint, neither did they. It just wasnt an issue to me.
My bestest pal from the fandom was a hardcore Brian/Michael shipper....and I happily got her the button after the finale aired, "Brian/Justin, wasting your time since 2000." But sorry, even if B/J were not together, I never saw Michael as the runner up.
Plus, I liked him with Ben. Except for S5, when I thought Michael was an epic twit, to everyone.
reply
share
12 years ago
[deleted]
dergil27
12 years ago
Agree with the majority of your take on the various qaf pairings.
Really don't get the Brian/Michael people. It's like they live in another fantasy world within a fantasy world. But to be fair, the writers did cruelly throw this group a couple of bones in late season four.
reply
share
smc231
12 years ago
"Drew reminds me of a thick-headed Cricket star with an American accent"
I really laughed at this- several thick-headed cricket stars came to mind!!! I'm afraid that the actors Robert Gant and Matt Battaglia are the sort of male body shapes I hate!!!! All the muscles are a real turn-off!!! I do understand their place in the series though as all types have their supporters.
reply
share
12 years ago
[deleted]
smc231
12 years ago
I'm English so it was very apt! Beefy Botham perhaps??? Apparently there are several cricket grounds in the USA- not in England or Australia's class obviously- at least 3 in Philadelphia!
I agree they both are too beefy- Emmett and Justin win in the bubble butt stakes!!!
Brian is thin but somehow he seems to be gorgeous- trying to find a fault but none too serious!!!
It is really tough having to look at them all and make a judgement!!!
reply
share
12 years ago
[deleted]
smc231
12 years ago
Fairpenguin- yes it was shown on Channel 4 here I think around 2006/7 not concurrently with its original airing in the US. I have a major confession!!! I saw it was on and someone had said how good it was so I tuned in and I really hated the opening titles and thought oh no this is not for me!!! It was the first episode of Season 2 and I remember the scene with Brian and Michael in Woody's just before Justin walks in. I remember telling the work colleague who recommended it that I was not that impressed!!!!
Luckily they gave me season 1 on DVD and that was it!!!! No further doubts!!!!
It was a shame to see Ricky retiring though a great relief to the England cricket side no doubt!!!
Sorry to hear Caleb SJ is English- I will do my best to balance them out!!! I have no hatred of any of the characters but naturally have preferences- to remove the ones you are not keen on could mean you end up with just 2 or 3 episodes!!!
Looking forward to the new Marathon in February- enjoyed reading all the comments and look forward to making a contribution!!!
reply
share
smc231
12 years ago
Thanks for enumerating all the reasons that "saintly" Ben was actually no saint!!! I agree with Dergil that this makes him more human but there has been a lot of comments to the effect that Ben was a superstar that Michael was lucky to catch!!
I think with their different faults they probably in the end do make a match but I do not see them as ideal. I also always wondered how Michael who we are given the impression is so close to Vic, is adamant that he does not understand HIV and its implications. I am sure it is not the same as having the disease yourself but Ben makes it into a badge of courage one minute and then tells the bugchaser and Michael that they do not want it.I thought his telling Michael the details of his experience with Brian at the White Party was a little creepy as he knew how much Michael had(and still has?) always wanted Brian.
As a lot of people choose Ben over David I have always wondered why Ben's controlling nature is preferable to David's?
Great discussion!
reply
share
Ricky_Christy
12 years ago
You're welcome! :)
I think with their different faults they probably in the end do make a match but I do not see them as ideal.
-I saw them getting divorced after S5E13. I think Ben, after Michael is fully recovered, will go back to acting petty and eventually Michael will get fed up with it and divorce him.
As a lot of people choose Ben over David I have always wondered why Ben's controlling nature is preferable to David's?
-I always thought it was because David was more obvious about his jealously and petty and because Brian hated him. Most people I've come across say Ben is preferable because Brian actually liked Ben and approved of him. Plus, Ben supposedly accepted that Brian and Michael were special in each other lives, so he was subtle about his jealously. Unlike David, whenever they were at babylon and B/M were dancing, he would just stand there watching them. I think that's why.
But the thing is...Brian didn't accept him. It was made obvious by him wanting to stop that awful wedding. More so after he found out Michael was in danger when Ben was using steriods. And one of the reasons I think Brian didn't take to Hunter so quickly was due to Ben just kind of forcing Hunter into his and Michael's home and Brian was suspicious.
But that's my opinion.
reply
share
clofa
12 years ago
When you list all his faults like that, it's true, he does seem "worse" than David and I'm one of those viewers who considered him too good to be true for Michael, but I've never thought he was better than Brian. I guess because I dislike Michael so much I was never able to see Ben's mistakes.
I'd still pick David over Ben though out of personal taste; I hate people who want to control other people's lives and though all couples try to do that, David seemed to me the most offensive and obvious about it. I also like how Ben didn't make a huge deal out of Michael's attraction to Brian and I mostly love how he never blamed Brian for anything that Michael does or feels (unlike what David and Debbie constantly did).
But after reading your post, I'll definitely be looking at Ben differently from now on, so thank you for that perspective :)
Brianwashed!
reply
share
Ricky_Christy
12 years ago
I always thought Michael was too good for Ben and that pig juice should have been groveling at Michael's feet for forgiving him too many times.
And yes, Debbie is another matter I can rant on about.
reply
share
Suriname86
12 years ago
I thought David and Ben were equally obnoxious to tell you the truth. I'd take Ben I guess.
reply
share
KatrinaW
12 years ago
Brian is thin but somehow he seems to be gorgeous- trying to find a fault but none too serious!!!
Hmm, I can't find any physical faults with Brian/Gale. He's just my type! Tall, thin, lanky, non-cut (overly muscular men are a turn-off), cute tiny butt. Don't even get me started on his face!
I've started the series again, and I'm in the midst of Season 1. David annoys me more with every viewing! I know he loved Michael after a fashion, and maybe for real, but he was just so obviously desperate to hang onto his 'boy toy' (I have to laugh at that, because Michael is sooooo not the boy toy type!), it was quite ridiculous!
David did have his moments, though. The King of Babylon episode comes to mind.
reply
share
kazfinlay
12 years ago
I definitely prefer Ben over David. David wanted everything his way and to totally own Michael. Ben wasn't perfect but he didn't try to control Michael, David just got worse as the series went on.
reply
share
dergil27
10 years ago
Don't agree at all about Brian having no physical faults. This is particularly true of Brian's butt. which could only be called cute if cute were to mean flat and uninspiring.
But have to agree about David. He gets more irritating when you know his motives in hindsight. Also agree that "The King of Babylon" episode was one of the few times I actually liked the character.
reply
share