They did a good job with this film, but it's too bad that the portrayal of nuclear war is so far from accurate. A few years back I did a paper on the real, scientific results of nuclear war and it just isn't the all-human-life- killing thing that we hear about. At the peak of the arms race (or, obviously, today) the US and Soviet Union, working together, would be incapable of ensuring the death of everyone in Texas. Worldwide radiation is a big crock, and even nuclear winter is far from certain.
I'm not gung-ho about nuclear war (who is?). I just really, really don't like propaganda, no matter how well-intentioned. Back when nuclear disarmament was in vouge the anti-nuke crowd deliberately spread a lot of disinformation in an attempt to scare people onto their side. Misinformation pisses me off. I'm a big supporter of free speech, so I'm using my right to free speech to combat their abuse of it. I could go on about this, but don't want to be boring. If anyone is interested in more facts, I can post more.
Blimey. That's one of the most sensible postings in this whole exchange.
Lighten up, peeps. Neville Shute made some errors in the novel, but wrote it a long time ago. I'd say it's as much 'anti-war' propaganda as 'Day of the Triffids' is 'anti-plant'. And it's not going to be the first movie that made a balls-up of the science.
We can put forth best theories and that's about it. Seems thought it's better to err on the side of caution, a bit healthier for the world to overestimate the effects of WMDs than underestimate. If some future politician saw this movie and got the idea that nuclear war is a bad idea....I could live with that.
When Mt. Pintubo in the Phillipines blew in the 90's, it released more energy than all the nukes on the planet combined. It also threw more debris into the atmosphere than a nuclear WWIII would have and there was no nuclear winter - though global mean temps did dip a bit. After that, there was a lot less talk about a post-WWIII "nuclear winter". The scary part is that it made a lot of policy types start to think that a nuclear war could not only be fought without annhilating humanity, but was winnable.
I think your all morons ...like the guy said its a film , you ve missed the point and just shown how stupid you all are with your inane arguments, the film is trying to show the futility of trying to win a war with a nuclear stockpile but at the same time you can argue whos actually to say whats going to happen because said scenario hasnt ever occurred and hopefully never will . For god sake its a movie forum not the damn Senate or Houses of Parliament . The guy who thinks the Worlds nuclear stockpile couldnt destroy Texas is an a ** end of.
You guys should all read "The Sum of All Fears" by Tom Clancy. Not the movie, the book. It does a great job explaing how Nuclear Weapons work, how they would be deployed and the after effects. Mr Clancy consulted 5 nuclear engineers that were at tests and developed some of the bombs. Whats scary is the fact that anyone with an engineering degree can build a bomb if they get the right materials. Fall out is just When a Volcano explodes thats dust being blown into the air and Mt St Helenes blew up dust that travelled the world 3 times over. Now, that may not be 100% accurate of what fall-out would do, but it is a good pointer. Just read the book and it will show your some things that will amaze you.
A Nuclear war would be fought as a huge worldwide air/sea/land battle. Naval forces for months afterward would be still fighting and using their most potent weapons against each other. Subs would be sought after and killed with Atomic depth charges and torpedoes. A war such as this would cover all the worlds oceans and both hemispheres. Carrier Battle groups would operate in radiation safe waters which after attacking and being attacked by other Naval Battle Groups would pollute the entire world with radiation. One thing not taken in account is the United States Marine Corps has more aircraft than a great many nations. The entire arsenal of both Russia and America is close to 50,000 warheads of all types. Weapons would be used to inflict maximum casualties and destruction. Example; A storm front coming across an area would be targeted to help spread radiation over a larger area. Prevailing winds would be sown with long life fissionables to kill as many as possible. It's all moot now the danger is not MAD but terror attacks. Nobody has ever fought an all out Nuclear war so NOBODY knows exactly what can and cannot be done what will and will not happen. Once Chopsticks is called the world goes into the looking glass, which by the way is the name of the NEACAP aircraft.
The Looking Glass was a SAC aircraft crewed up with an entire SAC Battle Staff, that operated from Offut AFB near Omaha. There was one in the air continuously from the 60's until the program stopped some time, I believe, in the 90's. It a was a modified C-135 (B-707). The NEACAP was (is still?)a modified 747, also with a large crew, that could carry the national Command Authority (POTUS or his successor) in wartime. It flew around and stayed near wherever the president was - for example, when he was in the Southeast (this was during the Reagan years) it would stage at the base where I was in Mississippi. It was memorable because its location at any time was supposedly classified, but the tail stood well up above all of the trees in the alert parking area. I think both aircraft had similar C3 capabilities including controlling the nuke arsenal depending on circumstances.
one thing the movie NEVER address was underground NBC bunkers of which there are MANY all over the world people could/can live for years inside one without ever having to come outside many "survivalist" have 2-3 year bunkers even today.. there are some that even are prepared for 10 years of death and destruction so the premise everyone died in questionable although at the time of the original movie they may not have been prepared at that level but i suspect some would have been but with the modern premise of the movie it would be true....
they didnt mention rad pills either....i dont remember if this was around in 1959 but it would have been with the modern premise to the movie...
i noticed also all the humans and animals were dead but in the back grounds and such trees and bushes looked fine at the levels we were talking about radiation kills everything immediatly from what i understand........
not saying it would be fun or pertty...but can do....
i myself dont believe that man could destroy the earth but i bet he could sure make everyone wish they were dead...there are so many factors including types of bombs and such, most are built on short half lifes i think all the cobalt's were destroyed so we're talking days or weeks or maybe even a couple months of fallout vs 30,000 years of fallout... and like we've seen posted already we just dont know we've only detonated 2 nukes within a little while of each other so we've NEVER had a full exchange we dont know what will happen...
on a religous note it does say in the bible that IF "God did not shorten thier days there would be no life to save at all"...
According to the remark that started this thread, nuclear war would be incapable of contaminating the atmosphere so badly that everyone would eventually die of ration sickness.
The remark is nonsense. The only limitation on this scenario is the AMOUNT of radioactivity being released. The SEVERITY or INTENSITY of the nuclear conflict, in other words. The dude who started this thread is, I fear, in a state of denial similar to that of the mental ostriches who have been denying the truth of global warming.
Actually no, the "destroy the world 3 times over" thing is a myth. You couldn't blow the earth to bits, its held together by gravity. Even 1000 times as many nukes as exist wouldn't blow up the earth.
It wouldn't kill everyone on earth either. In a nuclear war they wouldn't shoot all nukes at everything, they'd shoot them at the country that was nuking them. And the radiation wouldn't spread down to australia.
If they spread the nukes over the earth evenly, it still wouldn't get everyboady. It would get most but not all, there would be survivors and the world would repopulate over a very long period of time.
The author of the previous post hasn't paid close enough attention to the story.
First of all, On the Beach doesn't depict the earth (the planet) being "blown to bits". It depicts the death of its inhabitants. So thetripdoctor's first paragraph is otiose.
Secondly, the novel describes a war fought with hydrogen-cobalt weapons, i.e. weapons that work by nuclear fusion and with a cobalt casing. The significance of that is that the power of the reaction has several times the magnitude of a conventional (fission) reaction, and that the cobalt casing keeps the fallout in a gaseous form that continues to circulate with air currents - in other words, it wouldn't filter out of the atomosphere as in the case of a fission reaction. So it really wouldn't matter who "they" were shooting at, it sure as hell WOULD spread to Australia, and everyplace else on the earth's surface for that matter. Unless you could figure a way to restrict global patterns of air circulation.
If you (1) put enough atomic radiation in the atmosphere, and (2) keep it in gageous form so that it wouldn't precipitate into solid form, THEN the only limitation on its effect is the rate of decay. Five hundred hydrogen-cobalt bombs would create precisely the effect described in On the Beach.
Nobody's ever made a hydrogen-cobalt bomb, as far as we know, and hopefully nobody will. But the premise of the story isn't ridiculous by any means. In the story, the Chinese use such bombs against the Russians in order to render certain areas uninhabitable, and the response is in kind. And in a very plausible complication, the book depicts the initial attack destroying the upper echelons of the governments of the superpowers, so that no one has the authority to tell the military to stop what they're doing. That could happen nomatter what kind of nukes were used.
I've always liked to look at this movie more as a look at how people deal with impending death than as a realistic view of nuclear war.
Shute worked hard to narrow the focus in the book, which didn't account for any hole digging survivalists, or south moving migratory hordes, both of which I think would have resulted, and could have been examined in the text.
As far as propaganda goes, Shute was very specific in the book. The war was the result of the proliferation of nuclear weapons. In Shute's 1960's EVERYONE had nukes, and I think it was Egypt who first bombed (yes, they used bombers, how quaint :) ) the U.S., the US responds by attacking Russia whom they believe attacked them. As the Nation's of the world start losing leaders, they command and control breaks down and voila! everybody dies.
The 1959 movie broadens the message with the "It's not too late brother" (or whatever, sorry it's been years since I've seen it). But lets look on the bright side, the treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear weapons came into force before Egypt got the bomb lol.
Anyhow, whether the International relations angles are right (which is my field) or whether the science is accurate (which is decidedly not my field), I just like watching everyone grab their ankles and kiss their butts good-bye.
I totally agree with Sikboy. All of Shute's novels are about ordinary people dealing with extraordinary situations. I like to think of his novels as celebrations of the common man and woman. After reading On the Beach several times, I no longer find it depressing. I like the way he depicts the common people facing the situation with dignity--Holmes handing the sales clerk his check and the clerk handing him his recepit, for example. They do what they're supposed to do, like gentlemen. No bitter sarcasm, no end-of-the-world jokes, and above all no attempt to utter profundities. That is so sweet.
I have to agree with Tom Amity completely. A single nuclear exchange would create enough ambient radiation to do a lot of damage and kill a number of people. A total release, as the one portrayed in the film, would cause at the very least something akin to what the premise is of this film, total devastation. The individual that started this thread clearly does not know what they are talking about when it comes to nuclear theory and nuclear science. Why do people want to live in such ignorant denial of the reality of what nukes could do, and what global warming IS doing? Probably because acknowledging those facts would require a response, and a sacrificial change in lifestyle and consumption, on their part. But if there is nothing wrong, then everyone can go on abusing the planet and consuming more than every generation before us combined guilt-free.
Denial is NOT just a river in Egypt, is it?..............
"they didnt mention rad pills either....i dont remember if this was around in 1959 but it would have been with the modern premise to the movie."
There are only a few ways to protect people from radiation with drugs - three, really:
- block the uptake of radioactive iodine and similar chemicals by the thyroid by giving the patient plenty of stable (non-radioactive) iodine in pills or their diet;
- reduce damage to the genes by increasing the level of electron acceptors and/or antioxidants in the bloodstream and cellular water;
- reduce the tendency of radiation to destroy DNA by giving the patient thiol derivatives that protect nucleic acid in the cell.
The first treatment is fairly old-hat and been used to the point that it's been perfected;
the second is essentially a spin-off of food additive technology used to keep potato chips and other starchy snacks fresh (BHA and BHT, and their derivatives);
the third treatment is used in cancer clinics to reduce the toxic effects of both radiation and chemotherapy - unfortunately, it also has its own set of toxic effects because the drugs involved resemble organophosphate nerve agents and pesticides, and can cause similar poisoning symptoms.
a fourth approach is being actively studied under grants by the US Federal government to use certain starch derivatives to protect cells from ionizing radiation; there's been some limited indication of success in humans with it, but clinical trials have been few. However, the US Department of Homeland Security is stockpiling the medication in question in the event of a mass radiation disaster (an event much smaller than a large nuclear war).
The second, third and fourth classes of treatments are still considered experimental for radiation sickness, and not effective enough to protect large numbers of people in continuous high radiation dose rate environments.
These drugs work when used to get a patient over a limited, if high, dose or series of doses of ionizing radiation. They're not miracle pills intended to protect patients from continual exposure to high levels of radiation.
At best, the drugs might have been useful to help Cpt. Towers and his executive officer wear off the dose of radiation they got exploring on shore during the voyage to check out the odd radio signals from North America. Probably not even that.
Well, if mutually-assured-destruction is such a load of baloney, why haven't we had a nuclear war?
I take the liberty of assuming that the high-command of both east and west have access to `experts' at least as well informed as yourself. And if they have come to the same conclusion that the consequence would only be limited collateral damage, why not press the button and be rid of one's enemies for ever? Who would question the efficacy of it afterwards?
I wonder if your paper took into account not just the number, but types of warheads being used. That - for example - some might have a secret stock of `dirty' bombs that contaminate for hundreds or even thousands of years. This radiation would get into the water-table and pollute all drinking-water and eventually the oceans.
Almost all major species of animal would be wiped out. Food chains would collapse. The biosphere would be changed beyond all recognition. So what are survivors to eat?
Further, as well as the millions (or billions) killed outright, there would be even greater numbers with anything from slight to horrific injuries. Medical facilities would be completely overwhelmed. These people would be left to die, or perhaps even shot.
Imagine, if you can, hundreds of thousands - maybe tens of millions - of shocked, sick, desperately hungry and thirsty people in a largely ruined world with almost no available resources and no effective control or goverment. What do you think would be their fate? It would be a hideous, squallid, homicidal orgy of dispair, not unlike the sutuation in Louisiana when the levy broke: just a thousand times worse.
Their condition would be compounded by a rampant spread of diseases, made all the more virulent by the weakened condition of the victims. It is also likely that some of the warheads wouldn't be nukes at all, but bio-chemical payloads expressly intended to elliminate the nuclear survivors.
Since the adoption of the SALT terms (Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties), the USA has been decomissioning nuclear resources both weapon and production. The subsequent fissile material then has to be stored. I am reliably informed that a facility is under design to be secure for up to 10,000 years. yes; that's 10 millennia... about twice the age of the pyramids.
I, myself, am no expert. However I do possess the ability to derive 4 by the addition of 2 and 2. You, on the other hand, sound like one of these well-informed geniuses who said that WW1 would be over by the first Christmas. Or that the invasion of Iraq would be a cinch.
I do not mean to do you a disservice, sir; but how are we to know whether your comments are not just more `propaganda'? If history shows us anything, it is that most `experts' are about as reliable as complete amateurs.
Both versions of `On The Beach' spared us the Dante-esque nightmares of whole populations in civilisation-meltdown, the uncontrained riot of desperation, murder, and - almost certainly - cannibalism as resource supply completely failed to keep pace with demand. To this extent at least they were propaganda, thank heavens.
David Martin, a peace activist and Australian researcher on stratospheric studies, has devoted considerable time to studying the actual (as opposed to the generally supposed) effects of a nuclear war on the environment.
"The Global Health Effects of Nuclear War" was the result:
It's appropriate for an Australian scientist to put right a misconception (the inevitable destruction of all life on Earth by nuclear fallout after a nuclear war) created by a novel written by an Australian engineer (Nevil Shute), don't you think? Martin's fellow Australian Desmond Ball has done a lot of work along these lines as well, trying to rationalize thinking about what happens after a nuclear war.
While the atmospheric nuclear testing program in the continental United States hasn't been without its problems (I am one of the probable victims of late-forming cancers from childhood exposure to radioactive iodine from just two of the tests in the Operation Plumbbob tests that weren't even supposed to be "atmospheric tests") it has also been sufficiently free of the sort of catastrophic environmental damage you'd expect from the propaganda of the peace movement. Ball and Martin are doing their best to place the peace movement on a rational basis - back in contact with reality as the rest of us know it..
As to "Why haven't we had a nuclear war if MAD was a crock of s--t?" well, there's destruction and there's DESTRUCTION. Apparently there just wasn't an issue pressing enough (or national leaders crazy enough) to merit a full-on nuclear exchange. This could change now that the nuclear club's about to expand to include people who think if they raise the body count high enough, the Seventh Imam may appear....
Just because a car accident's less lethal than a bout with Ebola doesn't make a good case for driving wrong-way-to on a freeway in rush hour, does it?
You are the very first person I've heard that ever said that. Ever. Have any real way to back it up, besides your "paper"? Both powers incapable of wiping out all life in Texas? Boy, I thought Nukes were dangerous! Who came up with the Nuclear Winter issue, the Global Warming folks?
Hey, Mr. President! I campaigned for the other guy, but I voted for you!
A nuclear war, if one occurs (very doubtful), would probably be a "one missile each country" exchange. An general nuclear exchange is possible, of course; but please remember that at least half the nuclear weapons would probably be destroyed before they could be used. Also, the average yield of nuclear weapons is not nearly as large as it was in 1962, which was when nuclear war came closest to actually occurring. Modern day nukes emphasize accuracy; not total explosive power.
An overall nuclear exchange would be terrifying; even horrific with millions of deaths. However, it would come far short of wiping out the entire world's population. That just cannot happen; there are not near enough nuclear weapons around to do that.
There has never been a weapon invented by man that hasn't eventually been used (nukes included). How you can make a statement to the effect that a nuclear war, if one occurs, will probably be a one weapon exchange is foolish. The whole purpose of nuclear arms are to serve as a deterrent. Their secondary purpose of to overwhelm and adversary's arsenal should an exchange occur. If a nuclear war were to occur, whether or not the fallout is sufficient to wipe out humanity is irrelevent. Whatever is left, sure won't be very pleasant. Ultimately, we'll never know unless such an exchange occurs.
"How you can make a statement to the effect that a nuclear war, if one occurs, will probably be a one weapon exchange is foolish"....Hmmm, I think your syntax has an error in it. Are you asking a question or making a uncalled for remark???
I can envision a one weapon exchange and, in fact, think it is the most likely scenario. Perhaps a warning shot during an otherwise conventional war; perhaps an Electromagnetic Pulse blast in the upper atmosphere; or, perhaps tactical nuclear use on an underground bunker. Nobody wants the full exchange you mentioned as it would not serve any use for the winner; let alone the loser. However, limited nuclear weapon use might be sufficient to win or at least stop a war.
Please remember, the United States has never renounced the option of first use of nuclear weapons.
Thank you for pointing out my syntax error. Unlike many that frequent these message boards, my skin is thick enough to accept constructive criticism - especially when it comes to correct use of grammar! I hope your one exchange hypothesis never has to be proven. I maintain that when it comes to idiots occupying seats of power, rational thinking is not likely to carry the day. Please remember there are rogue nations currently armed with nukes and others trying to join the club.
The whole idea of "limited exchange" has been debated for decades and the conclusion is normally always that this is not realistic.
Once you push the button, you fire it all, or else your missiles and bombs will be destroyed in their silos.
An overall nuclear exchange would be terrifying; even horrific with millions of deaths. However, it would come far short of wiping out the entire world's population. That just cannot happen; there are not near enough nuclear weapons around to do that.
The numbers of warheads is reduced (I am not sure what it is today), a few thousand on each side + a few hundred combined for the smaller nations.
Though, there are plenty of nuclear power-plants to be targeted, or do you really think that the gentleman's agreement from the cold war, about not targeting nuclear power-plants, would mean anything in a full-scale war?
If you target such a plant, you get loads of long-lived isotopes that will render huge areas uninhabitable for centuries.
I don't think you would wipe out every man, woman and child from the face of the earth, but during the max-stockpile years of the cold war, I believe they could probably reduce the number down to a few million people, spread out over large areas.
Most scientific papers on global nuclear war, concludes that the main-part of deaths will come from starvation and disease.
The question is the post-war effects and how humanity will fare in it's new environment, radioactive particles tend to travel trough the food-chain and follow wind and sea-currents and animal migratory-routes. Eventually, over time, radiation will accumulate into humans in "clean areas" anyway, they may not die from it immediately, but it will affect the genes and following generations, since they ingest it. reply share
The amazing thing about nuclear weapons is the effect they have on the possessors. The majority of the scientists who first developed the weapons in the United States issued various statements over years expressing their certainty that we would eventually use them in large numbers and devastate the Earth, but we never have.
During the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962 the United States had an overwhelming nuclear advantage over the Soviet Union.
- We had approximately 400 B-52 bombers in service in October 1962, along with hundreds of B-47 and dozens of B-58 bombers. The limitation on how many would reach the Soviet Union and bomb successfully was limited by the number of KC-135 aircraft we could deploy to refuel them. The Soviet Union had fewer than 200 TU-95's, the only bomber in their inventory that could reach the United States and it would be a one-way mission at that. However, the Bear was approximately 100 mph slower than the BUFF and we had a much more effective air intercept program in place than did the Soviet Union. Their ability to reach the United States with any manned bombers was questionable.
- We had at least six George Washington and Patrick Henry class SSBN's in operation. At least four were at sea at any time and they could each launch 16 Polaris A-1 missiles. The Soviet Union had a handful of diesel electric missile submarines that needed to surface before launch.
- We had three wings of Atlas II ICBM's and I think two wings of Titan I's in service. The Soviets only ICBM required three to six days to prepare of launch, above ground.
Well, you get the idea. Premier Khrushchev desperately needed IRBM's in Cuba as a means to begin to correct the gross imbalance. The point is that we could have vaporized the Soviet Union and they could not have responded in kind. In the words of Buck Turgeson, I won't say that we would not have gotten our hair mussed, but it would have been survivable for us. Nevertheless, President Kennedy (probably quite wisely) chose to take a cautious approach and we resolved the situation without any combat.
Pakistan and India used to engage in artillery duels every few years. Pakistan would blast away across their border with tube artillery while the Indians worked their way up from canons to rockets. These continued even after India developed a nuclear weapon capability and demonstrated it in 1974. Then in 1998 Pakistan developed its own nuclear weapon capability and conducted tests. India responded with a series of tests. Since then they have avoided shooting at each other.
It seems like every country that can possibly afford a nuclear weapon wants one. Many of them are convinced that they need one. Once they get it, they are extremely reluctant to use it. The United States still wrestles with having used them to end WWII, now matter how justified we still think we were at the time.
The United States and the Soviet Union both moved away from counter-value targeting (MAD, bombing cities to kill the population) to counter-force targeting (aiming at each other's war making capability: missile silos, air bases, and naval facilities) back in the 1970's, as soon as the accuracy of the weapons allowed us to do so.
I agree with the projections on cause of death, but the number of weapons involved in an exchange would be much smaller today than in decades past. The United States weapon inventory peaked at about 30,000 around 1963 and has declined by 90 percent since then. By the 1980's we were down to about 10,000 and the Soviets, who had about 2000 warheads in 1963, were up to about 30,000. Today we have 2,000 to 4,000, depending on who is talking and the Russian Federation has a similar number. The treaty agreed numbers are somewhere near 2000 each. China has 300 or so warheads, the people who count in unclassified sources say the French and the British each also have weapons numbering a few hundred. No one in the unclassified sources claims to know how many weapons that Pakistan, India, North Korea, or Israel have. However, they are expensive to build, to maintain, and to store. It is unlikely that anybody keeps more than they need to satisfy their level of national paranoia.
I personally do not expect to see a major exchange in my lifetime. I think we can concentrate our fears of species demise on massive asteroids instead of nuclear warfare.
The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.