Who is the girl??? - The Ninth Gate (2000) Discussion

[–] sodapopinski14 19 years ago

I posted a reply on the thread that Corso was not very beastlike that might help. These are just my opinions tho. Hope it helps!

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[–] fiatlux-1 19 years ago

The girl is Satan, IMO. I wonder why other posters think Corso is Satan?? I always got the impression it was always the girl.
The shape-shifting face, the "gliding" down the stairs, the involvment in the quest for the book, helping Corso, glowing eyes, suddenly appearing out of nowhere..etc.

"I offer you this rose...my heart, my soul, my love."
"Love?"
- Legend

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[–] the_visualizer 19 years ago

No doubt that this girl is Lucifer or a fallen angel or something. Corso is the outsider Satans follower and Balkan is the foolish-I-know-everything-man.The movie was great and the mystery is solved...

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[–] stoffel242 19 years ago

The girl is a succubus watching-over/guiding Corso who has shown more genuine potential than Balkan, who basically is little more than an arrogant bully with a lot of cash.

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[–] thaneofglaysia 15 years ago

That is what I think as well. She seemed to be a guide and needed Corso to kill Balkan, thus giving the 'gift' to one more worthy. Plus Balkan was already damned. Corso was merely ammoral and thus not necessirily going to hell. So he needed to be tempted to land his soul to a one way trip down.

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[–] dexter_fishborne 19 years ago

The girl is the agent sent from hell to show Lucifer (corso) the path back to Hell. The girl (the whore of babylon) is shown as riding the beast on the ninth engraving. Corso is the beast. After spending some time on Earth as a mortal (as did God in the form of Jesus), Lucifer is ready to challenge for dominion over mankind after 2000 of God's rule. Lucifer is the light, Corso is the Way (I am the light and the way).

Balkan actually succeeded in summoning up Lucifer; foolish man just didn't recognise him when he arrived!

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[–] AlexBN 19 years ago

Corso wasnt Lucifer. He was a human pending sometimes for good sometimes for evil. It seems to me that if he was Lucifer, he wouldn't be that controversial, e.g. wouldn't care that much about his friend death. It seems he even had benign intents, when he tried to stop Liana's ceremonial. In fact, he didn't realize he was being manipulated by the girl, a devil entity (splendid performance by Emmanuelle Seigner). Thus, she lead him progressively to the devil side, she saw on him some "potential" and was willing to make him another of her kind.

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[–] mintho 19 years ago

I also don't think that Corso is Lucifer, but I don't think he really cared a lot about his dead friend. He actually didn't care at all about all those people dying around him.

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[–] oikoumene 18 years ago

That's why he was picked by the Girl for guidance to approach Hell, maybe by the direct order of Satan himself. Remember he also viciously killed that black man, even though saving his and the Girl's lives.

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[–] king_of_bob 18 years ago

This doesn't make sense. Why would she have to help him through the nine gates to get to hell if he's just a normal human? He could just sin his ass off and get into hell.

The nine gates are a journy to hell. A mortal human wouldn't need to take this rout, as all humans have to do is be sinful to get in.

Two wrongs don't make a left hand turn.

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[–] JBrooks175 18 years ago

The whole Corso is satan thing is interesting, but only if you go all out and say she was a demon trying to lead him back to Hell. If you say Jesus didn't know he was truly the son of god and Corso doesn't know he's the son of the Devil (or the devil in human form)

but I'm not sure there's enough to support this theory. This book has been worshippped for a very long time by people who love the devil, now one man has been charged to dig deeper into it's past then anyone else... of course the devil/satan would want someone there to help corso discover his existane, he probably feeds off of believers or something... the girl/demon helps corso return the 9 pages that have been seperated and in the end the girl/demon has sex with Corso... hard to know what to make of this, other then maybe the devil wanted a demon seed to be born on earth... it's really hard to get deep into. I just say... Devil sent the girl, Corso is just a guy, demon girl likes corso so she bangs him and the nine gates remains a mystery just like satan wants it to be.

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[–] king_of_bob 18 years ago

The woman is the whore of babylon. Hence her face being on the final image ridding the beast. This also goes to support the theory that Corso is the devil, because she "rode" him. That was the final gate> If they didn't have sex, he never would have crossed the ninth gate.

Two wrongs don't make a left hand turn.

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[–] joolztoolz 16 years ago

I don't think that Satan is a four-eyed geek amnesiac that you can beat the crap out of.

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[–] king_of_bob 16 years ago

He isn't aware he's Satan, thus he's open for all kinds of abuse.

I guess you assume the devil has a goatee, a red suit and a pitch fork?

Bender: I was God once.
God: Yes, I saw. You were doing well until everyone died.

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[–] nvasapper 16 years ago

What's the matter with you, mortal? Of course I do.

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[–] nikilove9 15 years ago

The woman is the whore of babylon. Hence her face being on the final image ridding the beast. This also goes to support the theory that Corso is the devil, because she "rode" him. That was the final gate> If they didn't have sex, he never would have crossed the ninth gate.

Exactly.

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[–] christomacin 15 years ago

the whore of Babylon wasn't a literal person even back when the Old Testament was written. It's was a metaphorical idea, always was.

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[–] BlackGoldMustang 15 years ago

Corso CANNOT be the devil...that doesn't make sense. The girl represents the evil one, said so by Polanski himself in the DVD special features.

"We all shine on"

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[–] ichbinsisyphos 15 years ago

It all comes down to the ninth engraving and whether Polanski himself understands it's meaning. Maybe it just looked nice to him.

According to Wikipedia, in "The Club Dumas" already, Green Eyes was "a fallen angel" and Corso basically some dude.

But the girl depicted in the engraving is certainly Babalon/The Babylonian Whore and Corso is "the beast whereon she rideth" ;-)
That would make Corso the antichrist and her - depending on who you ask - some sort of demon or another person on a similar quest as him, who will later take his side.

The engraving certainly doesn't mean the devil with bare boobs is reading a book while sitting on a six-headed dinosaur.

I find it likely that Polanski meant Green Eyes as some evil supernatural force that guides and corrupts Corso. But that would also mean that he didn't take the symbolism in his movie serious, certainly not as serious as his audience.

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[–] king_of_bob 13 years ago

We're talking about revelations, not the old testament.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

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[–] faville-1 16 years ago

The sex scene at the end is very ambiguous. Her eyes turn red, she's obviously in charge, and Corso is scared witless by her. She has extraordinary powers. But conceiving a new Satan? Pretty sketchy guess.

Again, I think we're led to believe that the Ninth Gate is at a Romanesque castle in Southern France, but what may lie behind it is a mystery. A bright light is all we're given to see. Is this merely the castle up in flames from Balkan's accidental incineration? Or the evidence of some greater light?

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[–] JM_Dalmeijer 16 years ago

No, you missed the point. The ninth gate is the exit to leave the Kingdom of Shadows.

And Château Puivert isn't a Romanesque castle, it was used by Cathars during the Albigensian crusades. The Vatican accused the Cathars to be devil worshippers, Cathars on their part accused the Vatican to be a representation of evil.

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[–] Krutontar 18 years ago

In the book she is a fallen angel.

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[–] faville-1 16 years ago

There is nothing in the narrative to suggest that Corso is a supernatural being. He's ruthless, remorseless, greedy, dishonest, suspicious, lusty, abuses cigarettes and alcohol, willing to do anything for a buck. He's a fallen mortal whom we suspect would happily sell his soul for riches or power. Worldly goods is what he wants. Does he believe in Hell? He certainly isn't religious. Does it matter? If you don't believe in God or Heaven, Hell certainly doesn't scare you.

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[–] king_of_bob 16 years ago

There's nothing in the dialog, but there is much in the movie which points to Corso being the devil. The reason he doesn't have any supernatural abilities is due to the fact that he wouldn't be aware of who he is until the final scene of the film.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

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[–] M_Abbott 16 years ago

The entire key is the concept of the 9 gates or doors. It is clear that the film is sending a message to the viewer. There is a doorway or gateway that only one can pass through and only at a certain time.

If you understand the occult and Christian eschatology then it is very clear that this is a direct reference to Lucifer passing through another dimension and into the dimension we call Earth. The final engraving is taken right from symbolic teachings in not only The Bible, but also from the books that were banned from The Bible, which originally included Lilith.

What this movie is saying clearly is that Corso is simply a man, but he is what Catholics termed "The Antichrist". A man who is embodied by the spirit of The One, otherwise known as Lucifer. The woman is obviously The Whore Of Babylon AKA Lilith. She exists in the same dimension as Earth, but she is a demon, not a person like Corso.

Corso is NOT simply Lucifer, he is rather, a man who becomes embodied by the spirit of Lucifer on Earth in human form (there is a HUGE difference between the two), after he enters into the castle at the end of the film. The entire point and symbolism of the film is the essence of the 9 gates or doorways. If you want more of an idea of the nature of this you can think of the 60s rock group "The Doors" and how Jim Morrison got the name for the group. This whole concept in the film is a blatant Luciferian, or should I say MASONIC conditioning.

And there is one important thing to keep in mind about Corso..........he is based on a REAL person. As is such, this is where the magic of Masonic trickery comes in. The Baphomet child that some have suggested would result from the sex scene at the end of the film is actually intended to in REAL LIFE represent the first born son of this real life man that the Corso character is based on. In real life it is this son that is to be "Meshiac Benn-David".

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[–] the_shillelagh 16 years ago

I love this board - the longer you rest here, the better the subscribers become...

Who'll dare tread upon the tail of my coat?

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[–] faville-1 16 years ago

I really think you're building castles in the sky here. Corso is the Antichrist. The blonde is the Whore of Babylon aka Lilith. Masonic conditioning. Come on. Audiences don't know enough about any of this stuff to make these inferences.

It's a cult film, and it appeals because of its undercurrent of cliche "satanism" and spooky violence and "possession." It's a piece of entertainment, not an exercise in astrology or alchemy or occult symbology. That content is clearly gratuitous; it's just for fun.

If you want to build up a little edifice of interpretation, I suppose it could be an entertaining parlor game, but it really has nothing to do with the movie as entertainment, which is, after all, how it is marketed. Anne Rice doesn't write for wiccins. She writes for the general reading public.

The riddles in the plot-line are a simple plot device to drive curiosity and create suspense.

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[–] the_shillelagh 16 years ago

Where are the clichés? I just want you to support your opinion; I'm not necessarily disagreeing at this point, just wondering if you can substantiate your argument?

Who'll dare tread upon the tail of my coat?

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[–] bettyturd 16 years ago

The Girl is an defender of the erth. You cant kill her she is an defender of the aerth. The ninth gate is an ok film. What is your problem with defenders of the earth then?

kind regards

Betty x

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[–] artemis_moon 16 years ago

faville i started this thread over three years ago, i had no idea it would still be going or that it would have so many posts. I had watched about the last 30 mins of the ninth gate, so i didn't know that the girl was intentionally ambiguous. I thought i had simply missed out on what she was. I thought someone who had seen the whole film or listened to the film commentary would be able to answer for sure.

However i don't regret asking, its been fascinating to see people's different interpretations of the film. Because that is what it is, an opinion. You said yourself it was a plot device to drive curiousity. it obviously worked, if you don't want to look into it any further because it is merely "a piece of entertainment" then that's your choice, just like it is anyone else's choice, including mine, to see it as more than that and share our thoughts on it

I, Know you appear, Vivid at my side, Claiming you feel, Love fiery enough to prove flesh real

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[–] faville-1 16 years ago

Dear Artie-Moon:

I'm not trying to close off debate or information about the probable underlying content of the movie.

I do object when people begin to build huge edifices of intellectualized deduction out of what is, in fact, a piece of light entertainment. All the involved religious, occult, satanic ritual stuff is really outside the scope of the movie. If that's your cup of tea, obviously a movie like this isn't the place to pursue it.

There's an entire body of literature built out of this kind of preoccupation, and that's where people who are obsessed or tantalized by it, should go. Not to discussions of the movie. I've read intricate analyses of Hitchcock's movies that brought up things like the shape of certain props, the amount of light falling on someone's hair, whether it was possible to turn onto what was, in real life, a one-way street, etc. This is just nonsense! There are limits to what one can read into a movie, certainly at one showing.

There are movies that I like to watch over and over, in which I see something new every time. The directors and screenwriters and editors etc., all must pay intricate attention to the sequence and content of a movie, but it's not the audience's necessary task to deconstruct all this activity at minute levels. That's the business of movie-making, not the audience's appreciation.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] king_of_bob 14 years ago

no, what about Baroness Kessler saying she saw the devil when she was 15 and it was love at first sight.

And we're meant to believe she actually saw the Devil?

ANd what about corso almost got killed in the streets in spain, the building constrcutions.

What about it? He didn't die did he?

And if he i sth edevil, why doesnt he recognise his own drawings then, and LCF doesnt ring a bell in the first place.

Did you not read any of my posts above?

The girl is satan.... A fallen angel (which he is of course)

Absolute nonsense. The girl doesn't match Kessler's description of the Devil anymore than Corso does. If you're going to argue that Kessler actually saw the devil and her description was accurate the devil is not a woman.

Listen, the lithograph is perfectly clear. The Whore of Babylon will ride on the back of the beast. The last lithograph shows us very clearly that it is her face on the woman riding the beast, she is clearly the whore of Babylon.

Observe, The Whore of Babylon:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Whorebab.jpg

If you don't see the similarity between that picture and the drawing in the movie you should just leave this conversation now.

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs47/f/2009/226/0/2/The_Nine_Gates_of_the_K ingdom_by_juanmadraco.jpg

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

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[–] ACDCnLedZeppelin 13 years ago

The girl is Lucifer. The fact that Baroness Kessler seen Satan as a man is why would Satan not be able to manifest into what ever he/she/it wanted? Also why would Corso be the Devil? If he was why would his memory be wiped and need help being guided back to where ever. That would make Satan a mortal being if he where not to find his way back.

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[–] NiKoDay 14 years ago

"He's a fallen mortal whom we suspect would happily sell his soul for riches or power."

And rare book dealing is the way he will take over the world!!! mwaaahahahaha.

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[–] nvasapper 16 years ago

Sure- but that can take too long. This was like travelling in the HOV lane with less traffic to slow you down. A quicker and more direct route! Emmanuelle Seigner could be at my side anytime- good-looking, sexy and can kick butt. I really like her mouth and her teeth. She's a knockout!

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[–] GoddamUnvoicedAbbot 15 years ago

It makes perfect sense. A normal human being can as well get into heaven by his actions too, without knowing about a God. This film was about seeking for hell.

Like people seeking the way of God, Corso sought the way of Satan. After the fight when the Lucifer-girl sees him beating up the guy, she says "I didn't knew you had it in you". From there on she has faith in him too.

Maybe Boris Balkan actually got through the ninth gate. We would think he failed. But maybe the ninth gate lead to a burning hell. Then we know what meets Corso in the ending too...

Antiparanoia is the eerie feeling that nothing is connected to anything else

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[–] king_of_bob 15 years ago

Except unlike those who get into heaven, Corso isn't dead. He doesn't take the natural course to hell like the rest of us. And no, it's not about seeking hell. It's about searching for the clues, which inevitably leads Corso through the nine gates.

"Like people seeking the way of God, Corso sought the way of Satan. After the fight when the Lucifer-girl sees him beating up the guy, she says "I didn't knew you had it in you". From there on she has faith in him too."

No, Corso was simply doing his job. Corso himself was NOT looking to gain entrance to hell. It was simply a byproduct of what he went through to find the information he was hired to look for.

"Maybe Boris Balkan actually got through the ninth gate. We would think he failed. But maybe the ninth gate lead to a burning hell. Then we know what meets Corso in the ending too..."

He didn't. Balkan didn't even pass through the first gate(which aren't physical gates), how could he possibly pass through the ninth? Balkan is dead, probably in hell, but he didn't cross through a single one of the gates. What happened with Corso is completely different from what happened with Balkan.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

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[–] GoddamUnvoicedAbbot 15 years ago

As usual the author and his original novel is forgotten...

The answer is all here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Club_Dumas

"Corso, the girl, and La Ponte drive back to Spain, where Corso knows he must confront Borja. On a hilltop overlooking Borja's mansion, the girl reveals to Corso her true identity, as a fallen angel who rebelled against God and has wandered the Earth ever since. Corso accepts this and his growing attachment to her."

Antiparanoia is the eerie feeling that nothing is connected to anything else

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] BlackGoldMustang 15 years ago

I believe Mr. Corso is just a guy doing his assignment that Balkan hired him to do and gets himself caught up in the whole sorted mystery...The girl is Satan, leading Corso to hell.

"Instant Karma's gonna get you"

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[–] shadejford 12 years ago

I'm glad the movie doesn't include this passage at the end. Polanski probably felt most viewers didn't need to be told who the girl was for we(the viewers) were sharp enough to have guessed who she was before the film's end. Enough subtle clues about the girl's true identity are certainly provided to the viewer before the film's last scene.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] geoh777 9 years ago

king_of_bob says, "This doesn't make sense. Why would she have to help him through the nine gates to get to hell if he's just a normal human? He could just sin his ass off and get into hell."

It makes sense if one considers that most people, including the filmmakers, believe that only the most wicked, or those who commit a truly evil or "Satan-seeking" sin, will ever go to Hell. The "rest of us" will just go floating off to nowhere, or some sort of limbo, or even to Heaven where God is not (there) to bother people with His preaching and judging, etc.

Those who believe the Bible know that God will take His people to Himself, while the remainder are cast into outer darkness.

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[–] king_of_bob 9 years ago

It makes sense if one considers that most people, including the filmmakers, believe that only the most wicked, or those who commit a truly evil or "Satan-seeking" sin, will ever go to Hell. The "rest of us" will just go floating off to nowhere, or some sort of limbo, or even to Heaven where God is not (there) to bother people with His preaching and judging, etc.

Nonsense. Again, if he wants to get to hell so badly, he could just go around committing evil acts. These actions could be considered especially evil because they're being done with the explicit purpose of getting oneself into hell. That would be "Satan seeking sin" would it not?

Nothing you said in anyway counters the the line you quoted.

The new home of Welcome to Planet Bob: http://kingofbob.blogspot.ca/

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[–] nvasapper 16 years ago

Well, I have always felt if you have to kill someone in self-defense, you better be as vicious and animalistic as you can to make sure you get the job done. Let's not forget the black guy was trying to kill Corso at every turn. You tend to build up a reservoir of resentment when every time you meet someone, they're assaulting you and trying to murder you. I thought it was really neat the way Corso faked him out- judo-flipping him over his shoulder by using the gunman's forward momentum while walking down the stairs. That was ingenious. And I thought it was a nice ironic touch that this Devil-worshipper got his head bashed in by a book on demonology. How fitting.

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[–] king_of_bob 19 years ago

How much concern did he really have for his friend at the bookshop? He didn't appear as upset as one would get should a good friend die. Infact, he seems far more worried about the book and not leaving fingerprints. Notice as he goes up the stairs he's vary careful not to touch anything.

It seems less about his interests, and more about the interests of "higher" powers. The girl never really leads him to do anything, it's all his choice. When they break into Fargas' house, she asks "do you want to go inside?", she doesn't do anything untill he expresses an interest in going inside. She doesn't really push him in any direction untill he asks her for something. Another example is when they're following Liana and they lose her. He tells the girl to pick a direction, since she apparently knows where and when to be at any givin time. So she picks a direction, which ends up being the correct one.

If Corso is human, she could never make him anything else. Humans are created human, Angels are created angels, one can never become the other. An angel that no longer hears the word of god, or "fallen from grace" are demons. Therefor, a human can never become a demon.

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[–] king_of_bob 18 years ago

He didn't care about his friends death. What does he do right after he finds the body? He goes to check on the book. Also, the girl didn't manipulate Corso into doing anything, it was all his choice. Notice she was always asking him what they should do.

Potential of what exactly? If she was Satan, then why exactly would she be helping a mortal get to hell? What possible purpose could taking a single soul serve? Especially considering this seems to be the hardest way to get to hell one can imagine.

Two wrongs don't make a left hand turn.

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[–] nvasapper 16 years ago

You must be joking, right? That's the Devil's job- to get more people to enter into his realm. That's what he wants. Every soul he collects means one less around for the Pearly Gates and increases his market share and IPO value!

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[–] melchior6 9 years ago

The Bible doesnt support the idea that Satan currently resides in Hell or that he will ever rule in Hell. The Lake of Fire which is true Hell appears at the end of the world in book of Revelation, it's purpose is punishment and torment especially for the Satan and the angels that followed him, hence its understood that Satan will suffer thyere more than anyone else since he is the one that brought sin into the world. If this were not the case, the it would be an egregious travesty of God's justice.

Also in this film I believe the 9th gate is really about a secret passage to a glorious realm of transcendence, which has always been the goal of the mystic quest, not Hell.

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[–] faville-1 16 years ago

Seigner is Polansk's wife. One curious speculation is that Polanski fantasizes his women as witches, and he made Seigner one for his amusement. Speaking of witches, why doesn't anyone think Lena Olin makes a pretty good witch? Yes, she may be deluded, scrupulously following the silly cult rituals and so forth, but that doesn't necessarily disqualify her. And what about the Baroness Kessler--she's pretty creepy, too! Not to speak of her secretary!

I think the message here is that everyone who falls prey to any of the seven deadly sins is already within the devil's influence, and is in danger of losing his/her soul. The blonde is a dramatic device to intervene periodically, save the hero, and facilitate his progress. Is she working for Balkan? Does she give him progress reports?--it makes some sense.

It was pretty clear that Balkan was following right after Corso at every step. It was he who engineered the deaths of Bernie, of Fargas and Baroness Kessler.

We are meant to believe at the end that it is Corso, not Balkan, who has been chosen to pass through the Ninth Gate. The ending doesn't tell us what this passage will lead to, or why Corso has been chosen to go through it, though. The girl clearly is there to see ot it that Corso makes it to the end.

The two old book dealers in Spain intrigued me. They were like satanic twins. Could they have had something to do with the book's discovery, etc.?

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[–] nvasapper 16 years ago

Very nice posting- intelligent and well thought out. I like the way you write!

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[–] Qaoz 16 years ago

AlexBN wrote:

Corso wasnt Lucifer. He was a human pending sometimes for good sometimes for evil. It seems to me that if he was Lucifer, he wouldn't be that controversial, e.g. wouldn't care that much about his friend death. It seems he even had benign intents, when he tried to stop Liana's ceremonial.

I'm sorry, but where do you get this idea that Satan is the bad guy with no feelings from?

Before you claim to know which side is good and evil, ask yourself this question:

Why would someone looking to gain dominion over a world go with a marketing campaign that involves eternal pain in fiery pits?

God promises eternal bliss in Heaven while Satan's offer is eternal pain in Hell. Really, it's quite obvious which option you'd choose, right? Which makes it very odd that God apparently wants us to choose our own destiny. Heaven or Hell, God or Satan, the choice is ours.. but, um, if we don't pick God, we will burn forever in Hell.

And isn't it odd that while God has been so anxious to let us all know how awesome he is, apparently Satan lost his tongue, because God published a book and converted like half the world. Satan only got a few cults to work with.

Really, I'm modern enough to know that God and Satan are just personifications of the good and evil within ourselves. Or rather, personifications of what the author considered good and evil. Thou shalt not kill, steal, cheat, etc.

Naturally, if you want people to follow your rules, you need to lay down a penalty for breaking them. Eternal pain in fiery pits governed by a monster sounds effective. If that's the penalty for breaking the rules, people are probably more likely to follow them.

Now you just need the right target audience. Perhaps the ones who are afraid of death and the ones who have few resources in life. Both are easily swayed, especially if you include a prize for following your rules. How about eternal life in a place with eternal bliss? Do you think that would win over some of the poor and old people?

Seriously, the Bible is thousands of pages of marketing. God is merciful, yet vengeful, so best to do as he says. And Satan is this bad guy who comes after those who don't do as God says. Not that he is really needed, because God could just rain sulfur from the skies, turn you into salt, kill your first born, spread a plague, let the rivers run over with blood and send large swarms of locusts into your crops.

But.. you know.. God's the good guy, right?

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[–] the_shillelagh 16 years ago

Qaoz - absolutely brilliant.

Who'll dare tread upon the tail of my coat?

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[–] Jurgen E Haug 13 years ago

That about sums it up - brilliant.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] GrifterZed 15 years ago

This is known as the malefactor alignment. Someone that is not inherently good or evil, but rather, does things that only directly serve their own purposes. This is considered the worst type of person, capable of doing the worst types of things. As often, people that set about TRYING to do evil are often driven by madness, where as someone who only serves the purposes of themself is entirely rational and sane, giving a much more dangerous element to their abilities. That is the essence of Satanist belief... serving of the self. This is evidenced by Corso on the plane when he states "I could easily end up the same way," referring to the deaths occuring around him. Including his friend. He doesn't care that it was his friend, but rather fears for his own life. People of this nature only do what is necessary for themselves. The others are directly and intentionally vicious and wicked. Corso isn't overly wrathful, prideful, or ambitiously power hungry. He is motivated only by, at the beginning- money, and at the end- his obsessive curiosity to solve the puzzle. I am convinced that even when he attempts to stop Fargus from killing his ex wife during the ceremony, that it again is only to make sure his desire to find out all the information he can isn't disturbed. Now, further on to the topic at hand... I NEVER believed that Corso is Lucifer. And as a note of interest, it is Lucifer that is said to have co-written the book. (It also must be said that, in spite of the numerous references to "the devil" and any other so called synonyms, that Lucifer, Satan, Beelzebub, the beast, and so on, are not Lucifer. In fact, each one is its own seperate entity as well. One must do some research to find that it was over great lengths of time that all these character of the Bible were amalgamated through efforts of the church to simplify things.) However, I am troubled by who the girl is. I at first assumed she was Lucifer. But upon inspection at the end, bearing the engraving of her riding atop the seven-headed beast, pointing the way toward the ninth gate, I had to re-think that decision. I had not considered The Whore of Babylon. This seems likely. Many passages in Revelation refer to a woman that sits on a beast with seven heads, that represent seven hills. And that allegory is supposedly to represent Rome, it being the most vial and evil thing on earth. Rome represents ALL of what Rome is, not just the city. It is its persecution (especially of the Jews, and later, the Christians), blood-thirsty, wonton violence, its filthy fornication, greed, and the fact that it "reigns over the kings of the earth." So, it is obvious, that Corso represents the beast of Rome, which is man. The Whore of Babylon (which Babylon is just a representation of Rome, because they couldn't speak out against Rome at the time) represents sin itself, the temptation, and therefore the driving force behind the evils committed by the beast. Hence their consumation. Now, here's where it gets tricky for me... The beast is of course referred to in two contexts in Revelations. One is that the best is man. The other is that it is the Anti-Christ. But it can be said that the Anti-Christ IS MAN. Literally, as in not the "son of the devil." The sins of man are technically the son(s) of Satan. So it can be said that the fornication of Satan and man results in the Anti-Christ. So what, then, is the beast, and who then, is Corso? The Anti-Christ, or the beast? Are they different or the same? Is Corso neither? I hope my response isn't too confusing, and I've given at least someone out there some food for thought. I would love a reply from anyone interested in the topic.

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[–] the_shillelagh 15 years ago

I have not had the time to take in all that you have put there, but bloody well done!!!

Nice to have another contributor who knows their stuff.

Thanks.

Who'll dare tread upon the tail of my coat?

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[–] JM_Dalmeijer 15 years ago

Hi GrifterZed,

Now, here's where it gets tricky for me... The beast is of course referred to in two contexts in Revelations. One is that the beast is man. The other is that it is the Anti-Christ. But it can be said that the Anti-Christ IS MAN.

A bit tricky indeed. As far as I see it Corso being the (seven headed) beast has more to do with the proverbial 'devil' within us. In Corso's own word the book is designed to raise the devil. The only one being raised is Corso; he is permitted to leave the Kingdom of Shadows through the ninth gate and dissolves in bright light.

Just like the verb raise has several different meanings the devil is a word (like you already mentioned) for several different mythological entities. There are clear hints towards esotericism in The Ninth Gate. According to esoteric teachings we all share a bit of a universal consciousness. If that is true then that will make us a part of what we can call God, each and everyone of us has something of a Lucifer inside of us, with distinctive qualities not many people are aware of. This is considered to be blasphemy by a great deal of the religious part of mankind.

Corso studied the three books as a non-believer without prejudice and after a while he changed his obsession for money into an obsession for finding the true purpose of the book(s). When the original LCF engraving was presented to him he understood what it meant and realised that the ultimate answer is deep inside of him. That was enough to raise himself into a higher level of existence.

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[–] Brejk 18 years ago

If Corso was Lucifer wouldn't he recognize the books?, because it was written by Lucifer himself.

Felix

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[–] king_of_bob 18 years ago

No. Not if he has no memory of what he is.

Two wrongs don't make a left hand turn.

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[–] nvasapper 16 years ago

If he's the Devil, how could he not know this? How could he not know who he is? What do you think- he's got Alzheimer's or something?

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[–] melchior6 9 years ago

The Book of Revelations says that Satan would be bound for a thousand years and after a thousand years he would be released. This could mean being incarante as a mortal man, made to forget his true identity. Satan could very well have written that book for himself ahead of time, anticpating the condition he might fight himself in, so that he would have a way to return to his former self, with the help of some of his minions like the girl etc. Of course.. just speculation.

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[–] the_shillelagh 18 years ago

What Lucifer wants more than anything is to re-gain entrance to Heaven. A good way to do this would be to become mortal and live amongst mortals, not knowing his true identity. All that would then be needed is a guide (in the form of the book and the girl) to show the way to Heaven (not hell as Balkan believed). God cannot deny admission to Corso as Corso does not know he is Lucifer.

Just another stab at a theory...
Thanks Dexter.

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[–] artemis_moon 18 years ago

very interesting theory, original.

I, When in good humor, Give grass its green, Blazon sky blue, and endow the sun with gold

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[–] the_shillelagh 18 years ago

Thanks Artemis, but the credit goes to Dexter. His idea lead to mine. The book does represent a guide to the nine gates of the kingdom of shadows, but Lucifer uses the guide to return to Heaven...

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[–] CeKzOr 18 years ago

I'm with the theory of dexter and shillelagh is the best point of view of the end of this movie, corso is lucifer and the girl is an agent sent from the hell to help, guide and make sure to corso(lucifer in human being) enter to the ninth gate. End of discussion!

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[–] El_Guapo_Caballo 16 years ago

and the whole time corso wasnt aware he was lucifer?

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] nvasapper 16 years ago

God can deny Corso admission to Heaven unless Corso either has a ticket to get in or pays at the Gate.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] nikilove9 15 years ago

The girl is the agent sent from hell to show Lucifer (corso) the path back to Hell. The girl (the whore of babylon) is shown as riding the beast on the ninth engraving. Corso is the beast. After spending some time on Earth as a mortal (as did God in the form of Jesus), Lucifer is ready to challenge for dominion over mankind after 2000 of God's rule. Lucifer is the light, Corso is the Way (I am the light and the way).

Balkan actually succeeded in summoning up Lucifer; foolish man just didn't recognise him when he arrived!

That's what I always believed as well.

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[–] MariMcCabe 15 years ago

I read the entire thread and goodness all of these theories make sense its making my head hurt.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] king_of_bob 18 years ago

There was nothing in the movie that led us to believe that Corso was a follower of Satan at all.

What makes you believe she is Satan?

Also, don't go confusing names here. Lucifer and Satan are not the same entity.

Two wrongs don't make a left hand turn.

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[–] pacheco_25553 18 years ago

Can you explain the difference between Satan and Lucifer?

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[–] El_Guapo_Caballo 18 years ago

yeah, whats the difference between satan and lucifer??? i always thought they were just different names for the same dude...?

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[–] the_shillelagh 17 years ago

For the purpose of this film, Satan and Lucifer may be considered to refer to the same entity. Check out The Satanic Bible for a more detailed guide to the different lords of hell.

Who'll dare tread upon the tail of my coat?

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[–] joolztoolz 16 years ago

There's a Satanic Bible? Oh Brother!...the "Holy" one is bad enough...

I think that people are just interchanging the names Satan and Lucifer because they haven't made a study of the Lords of Hell and their hierarchy...also, unlike you, they're not sitting inside of a pentagram at the moment...

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[–] El_Guapo_Caballo 16 years ago

<<unlike you, they're not sitting inside of a pentagram at the moment...>>

scary sh!t my friend...

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[–] nvasapper 16 years ago

Yes, there is. It was written by Anton Szandor LaVey, who presided over the Church of Satan in San Francisco during the 1960s. Check it out on Amazon.

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[–] Drdsr 16 years ago

whats the difference between satan and lucifer

"Lucifer" is a latin translation of a name in Isaiah 14:12 ("Morning Star"). Early Christians (and perhaps some earlier Jews) felt the passage may have referred to a pre-Rebellion Satan. Modern scholars note that the context of the passage in Isaiah doesn't seem to lend itself to such an interpretation, but the tradition still floats out there.

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[–] El_Guapo_Caballo 16 years ago

wow this is an old post!

thanks Drdsr, i like the concept of lucifer being called morning star before the big Rebellion, its like he was...you know,like, Gay.

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[–] Gustavkuken 17 years ago

Theres no need to go all dogmatic here (like king of bob with friends) - your theory of corso being lucifer is nothing more then your interpretation of an very open ending. My take on the plot is that the girl is an agent who has already gone through he ninth gate and is now helping corso to go through to join here, because Corso for whatever reason is considered worthy.

There is no absolut answer to what the plot means, unless you ask the writer of the story himself.

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[–] roell29 17 years ago

I think that's true, because when Corso beats the black guy to death, the girl's face lights up with satisfaction and she says, "I didn't think you had it in you". She wouldn't have said that if he was Lucifer. He proved himself worthy to her.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] the_shillelagh 17 years ago

With due respect, though Gustavkuken, king of bob used examples from the film to support our belief that Corso is Lucifer trapped in Mortal form, trying to regain entry to his kingdom, whereas you simply ignored those supporting examples then merely contradicted and gave your own interpretation. Rather hypocritical if you ask me... Don't you think ?

Who'll dare tread upon the tail of my coat?

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[–] artemis_moon 17 years ago

Who is that directed to shillelagh, me?

I, When in good humor, Give grass its green, Blazon sky blue, and endow the sun with gold

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[–] the_shillelagh 17 years ago

Who is 'what' directed to, Artemis?

If you mean my post:

by the_shillelagh (Wed Apr 2 2008 10:16:47)

With due respect, though Gustavkuken,...

then no it wasn't...

Who'll dare tread upon the tail of my coat?

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[–] artemis_moon 17 years ago

ahh i see, i was going to say i must have missed the posts where people explained why they thought Corso was Lucifer. It's a shame because they would make interesting reading :-) i'll have to have a scan through for them

I, When in good humor, Give grass its green, Blazon sky blue, and endow the sun with gold

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[–] the_shillelagh 17 years ago

Almost any theory about who Corso represents is plausible, the film being the way it is (an ambiguous masterpiece by a genius), it's just that I have such a dislke of anyone that criticises someone who has taken time and effort to validate their point of view using extracts from the film as examples. I don't think you have ever done that, though, so please don't take my whinge as being directed at you !

Who'll dare tread upon the tail of my coat?

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[–] Gustavkuken 16 years ago

Just because I didnt answer your examples directly doesnt mean I ignored anything. None of your examples are definite, pretty much everything in the movie is up for interpretation. My take on the story is just as valid as anyone elses.

As I said, no need to go all dogmatic.

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[–] Razar_C-1 16 years ago

Look, I'm only on page two of the comments so far (it's interesting enough a thread that I expect I shall read the lot of them), but I have yet to see anyone write the following:

If Corso was a demon/ the devil/ the emobodiment of the devil/ anything other than a normal human man, why then would the girl (emannuelle) have said to him "I didn't know you had it in you."? She says this upon watching him kill the albino-body guard who was going to kill them.

Surely she would know that the devil was capable of killing. Surely she would know that if a human had any part of the devil in him, he'd be capable. So why was she surprised? My answer to this is, that she was surprised because she did not expect the normal human man (Corso) to be capable of such a murder.

Ok, that's my two cents so far. Now to see what's written in the remaining 5 pages. Also, for those religious people out there: I have actually seen proofs, that the 'devil' and 'god' are actually the same being. That is, of course, presuming that either of them exist in the first place. But given that presumption, then the proofs are actually quite solid, and quite convincing too. I recommend that you look into it if you are interested in this sort of thing.

Ciao for Niao

Razar

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[–] jdwahrlich 17 years ago

the girl is deffently a fallen angel leading lucifer back to hell
in the scene where she smears the blood on his face. her eyes are shifting form old to green to black. this is the symolizes the falling of the angles

gold - angel of god - true angel of god)
green - eden (mans world - the represntation of the holy spirt inhabiting the newly baptized
black - as the soul of hell the fallen angle leads her lord back to to his kingdom

im sure there are more reasons and biblical relations to this movie
and relations to MASHAF REŠ, De Praestigiis Daemonum, and Malleus daemonum.

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[–] artemis_moon 17 years ago

I don't understand why some people think Corso is the Devil/Lucifer. Did i totally miss signals in the film that indicated that he was?

I, When in good humor, Give grass its green, Blazon sky blue, and endow the sun with gold

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[–] the_shillelagh 17 years ago

as we all see the film with different perspectives, our understanding and interpretation thereof differs. Just because you don't see what others do, doesn't mean that your understanding is wrong. If you don't see it, why worry?

Who'll dare tread upon the tail of my coat?

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[–] artemis_moon 17 years ago

well i can't say i'm worrying, i'm more interested in what was in the film that made people think Corso was the Lucifer. The only thing I can guess is the girl riding "the Beast" aka Corso. But that would also suggest the girl was the whore of babylon like i suggested in the original post, not some minion leading him back to hell.

I, When in good humor, Give grass its green, Blazon sky blue, and endow the sun with gold

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[–] Gustavkuken 16 years ago

That's exactly what I said.

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[–] inchartreuse 19 years ago

I never thought she was Satan, but certainly a demon or fallen angel of some sort - never there to interfere with his free will, just help him along on his journey...

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[–] ralv55-1 19 years ago

The whole thing about who was the girl was bothering me for some time. Me and my friend allways discuss that until I "re watch" the movie some months ago and I finally understan who the girls was:

She was a demon send by satan to guide Corso crussing the gate. I believe that the one who pass that gate, would become the anti christ (the beaste).

Well, that was the conclussion I got after watching this movie 4 times.

**¡¡**
Where were you while we were getting high?----oasis, champagne supernova

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[–] artemis_moon 19 years ago

so the majority seem to think that she is a demon/agent sent to help Corso find the ninth gate cos Satan found him and not Balkan, worthy?

I, When in good humor, Give grass its green, Blazon sky blue, and endow the sun with gold

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[–] king_of_bob 19 years ago

The girl is the whore of babylon, who rides the beast with 7 heads and 11 horns. The beast of course representing Lucifer(notice the distiction between Lucifer and Satan). Since she "rode" Corso, it isn't so far fetched that some people would assume he is the Lucifer.

On the other hand, perhaps Corso, insted of being Lucifer, is another in the hierarchy of hell. Perhaps Mephistopheles?

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] king_of_bob 18 years ago

The girl is the Whore of Babalon.

I don't know about anyone else, but the reason I think Corso is Satan, is because the girl helps him. Why help him and not Balkan, or any of the others who were trying to open the ninth gate?

As for the question "why would anybody want to go to hell?", well, if Corso is actually the devil trapped on earth for some reason, the books could be his way "home" if you will.

Two wrongs don't make a left hand turn.

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[–] joolztoolz 16 years ago

I don't think she's the whore of babylon...I was rooting for her to be Satan actually...I'm getting more than a little tired of all of the male gods and devils...women can't be supreme beings? Balderdash...I say!

Anyway, having sex doesn't make you a whore. Was that last pic of a women riding a beast with 7 heads? I thought it was a snake or something.

If having hot sex with Johnny Depp makes you a whore from hell...then they'll be lined up around the block if he ever becomes available--hell be damned.

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[–] JM_Dalmeijer 16 years ago

Joolztoolz, a quote from Wikipedia:

In modern Luciferianism, Lilith is considered a consort and/or an aspect of Lucifer and is identified with the figure of Babalon. She is said to come from the mud and dust, and is known as the Queen of the Succubi. When she and Lucifer mate, they form an androgynous being called "Baphomet" or the "Goat of
Mendes," also known in Luciferianism as the "God of Witches."

edit: The information on Wikipedia is not always 100% right, I know. However, during my study of the meaning of all the symbolism used in The Ninth Gate I found the same information on several other sites. Lilith is of course a fictional being and from the Sumerians untill the here and now she gained so many aspects that this might well be the reason of the different expressions on her face when she is having sex with Corso. As if Corso can see deep into her soul, yet still unaware of his own true self. Not being aware of one's true nature is the most important shadow in this Kingdom of Shadows.

At least that's my take on it.

Search for "Lilith", "Whore of Babylon" and "Babalon" if you want to read more.

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[–] king_of_bob 16 years ago

Then you should pay more attention to the visuals in the movie. She's clearly the woman riding on the back of the beast. Thus she's the whole of Babylon. Just because you're tired of the male devil sterio type doesn't mean the writer\director are.

I didn't say having sex makes anyone a whore. Whore of Babylon is a title.

Bender: I was God once.
God: Yes, I saw. You were doing well until everyone died.

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[–] joolztoolz 16 years ago

Yes, your right there...I actually ended up watching this movie two more times and caught the two pics of her riding the 7 headed beast. I guess that's why there are theories on here that Corso is Lucifer and just forgot or something.

Lol--I like you're Futurama quote.

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[–] christomacin 15 years ago

I think a lot of people are taking the Whore of Babylon too literally. They may be failing to consider that the Whore of Babylon might be not a person, but more be a symbolic signifier that a) Depp has completed the final right of passage for whatever happened at the end, and, b) represents the beginning of Armagedon. What is significant is the imagery of the Whore of Babylon, not the identity of the Whore of Babylon, which is assuming that it ever referred to an individual in the first place. I look at it this way. The mating of Depp with the witch/demon/Satan was a kind of consumation of Depp's union with evil and Satan. He had already been baptized with blood (reborn as an adept of evil), and finally, after all the seven deadly sins had been achieved (he had already commited lust with Telfer), the consumation with The Girl was his initiation ritual into the Ninth Gate. The Whore of Bablyon had rode a beast with 7 heads, corresponding with the 7 Deadly sins Depp had already successfully mastered. Further, and the woman in the ingraving held a book in her hand, obviusly represnted the knowledge of the Book and its 9 Gates. So no, she wasn't the Whore of Babylon, but she (whatever she was) represented both Corso's final right of passage and a suggestion perhaps of the beginning of the prophecy from the Book of Revelations. Early in the film, Baroness Kessler says "If this is all true, then it's a revelation"!

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[–] buntyraj1-1 18 years ago

On top of all that, when she meets Corso in the lobby of that hotel, she's reading the book "How to Make Friends and Influence People"

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[–] nvasapper 16 years ago

Just the kind of book that the Devil would read!

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[–] thegza182 15 years ago

I think the most logical answer is that corso is in fact the beast, making the girl the whore of Babylon. In the bible there are two beasts, the first one is the antichrist. That is corso in the movie, it explains why he is trying to go to hell, why the girl is trying to help him, and why she is 'riding' him in the end.

I think this makes the most sense in comparison to the overall plot of the movie.

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[–] king_of_bob 13 years ago

She's not Satan. Roman said in the commentary that she works for Satan. If you look at the engraving, she's clearly made out to be the whore of Babylon.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

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[–] mrbrianevans 19 years ago

I think shes a lot like Mephastophilis from Faustus who tries to make sure that someone opens the gate. It appears she originally chose to help Balkan but in the end changed her mind and instead favoured Corso. I don't think shes the devil but merely a sort of devil. The fact that when we first see her Balkan is talking about this idea of changelings (such as cats (green eyes?)) suggests that she is like this. In addition to this during the sex scene in the end her face appears to change a fair bit.

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[–] artiga 19 years ago

It is very simple to know who the girl is!! At the end of the movie Balkan says people have been burned just to have a glimpse of what he was about to do!! This means that many people over the centuries have attempted to go trough the ninth gate!! Then he said he was able to float on air or walk on water!! People this is very simple!! there is no mystery on who the girl is!! She is simply someone that has gone trough the ninth gate before!! She can float on air and Balkan said that was one of the qualities you earned!! She has knowledge of the ninth gates!! and knew were the real Drawing was a the end!! Perhaps she even put the drawings there after she had gone through the ninth gate herself!! Perhaps she wanted Corso to go where she had gone before!!

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[–] klanton_vbg 19 years ago

yes that seems to be the answer=)

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[–] pery-1 19 years ago

I think "the girl" represents Diane LaVey.

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[–] amungiu 18 years ago

I think you're right. Maybe she's a disciple of Satan and a person who went through the gate before at the same time. I think this links the puzzle.

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[–] kingarthurup 15 years ago

wrong

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[–] UmnOK 15 years ago

The girl is suppose to be the whore of babylon, in the final picutre she is riding the 3 headed beast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon

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[–] BlackGoldMustang 15 years ago

^ Mentioned 100 times already

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[–] UmnOK 15 years ago

^ Sigh ignore ^

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[–] AlexBN 19 years ago

How could a book written by Lucifer lead someone to heaven?

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[–] BatmanLannister 19 years ago

I don't really get the ending. I mean where was Corso going? Was he going into hell? Like alot of people have said who would voluntarily go to hell? Or was he going to get through the ninth gate to recieve some of the powers the girl had? Maybe Polanski wanted the girl to be a mystery. Alot of people seem to have different views on who she was. Maybe he himself didn't have an answer and just wanted people to be curious by the end of the film. I sure as hell had no idea what was going on. Just a thought though

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[–] jesuis_roux 19 years ago

well, the symbolism in the movie (NOT in the novel, mind) is that corso is lucifer lost, and the girl is, as it was mentioned somewhere above, a sort of succubus witch, whose job is to show lucifer the forgotten way back to hades.

and corso very much wanted to go to hell, in case that wasn't obvious; but as it's mentioned again and again in the film, hell doesn't neccesarily have to be all hellfire and brimstone, just as the devil doesn't have to have horns and a forked tail.

"when the Going Gets Weird, the Weird Turn Pro."

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[–] mjcr777-1 19 years ago

Well first of all i don't think Corso is Lucifer trying to go back to Hell because Hell for Lucifer is like a Prision, The Girl is a kind of Demon or maybe Lucifer. Corso is human tempted by the mysteri, knolege of hell maybe he wants power inmortality.

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[–] Qaoz 19 years ago

I'm with the Corse-is-the-Devil theory here.

The girl was his bodyguard, his guardian, his succubus. She helped him find the missing pieces of the puzzle so he could pass the ninth gate and return home.

And Hell isn't a prision for Lucifer. The whole Lucifer-lives-in-Hell-and-he-doesn't-like-it theory just doesn't add up. Lucifer is a fallen angel who challenged the ways of God. As such he was cast out from Heaven and chose a kingdom of his own: Hell.

As mentioned before, I don't think Hell is meant to be a place where you have volcanos, brimstone and lots of winged monsters with tails. Maybe it's like Heaven except *all* your wishes come true. Even the dirty wishes ;)

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[–] bickelski-1 19 years ago

If you will check your mythology, or history depending upon your POV, hell is in no way shape or form a prison for the devil (and as a side note, lucifer cannot be the name of satan, it is from an incorrect translation of the book of isaiah and is latin for bringer of light, "the devil's" name as such was and is Sammael, the blind God) In the Bible you can read where it says that Satan appears as an angel of light...who does he appear to if he's trapped? He is also called the prince of the power of the air, and it is not hidden in the bible that the dominion of the earthly realm and plane are given unto satan..

The prison is the lake of fire where it is written that Satan and the Fallen Angels will be cast after their defeat at megiddo, this and the abyss are the only recorded prisons or traps in christian literature for either the devil or his comrades.

And it seems highly unlikely that the woman is the whore of babylon, the whore of babylon is not credited, empirically, as having dominion or authority as far as the powers and principalities go.

It is also highly unlikely that corso represents the devil. At the end of the movie he walks into a great light an allusion to enlightenment as seen by many religious and secular groups, the illuminati included (no conspiracy theories here just backing up my thought) Satan would already be seen as having enlightment as far as this movie is concerned as this movie is most obviously not portraying hell as a place of evil but rather a place of moral ambiguity (where there are not set rights and wrongs) as well as a place of great knowledge and power...which is all in itself an even bigger metaphore.i would be interested to know, how many heads did the beast in the picture have? as it is most likely a direct portrayal in some form or fashion as one of the beasts we see in the books of daniel or revelations...

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[–] kpryde-1 18 years ago

I like that, the kingdom of hell is a realm of moral amibuity, which would be the true opposite of morality rather than going against what someone else considers moral.

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[–] king_of_bob 18 years ago

To your final point. Corso could still be the devil, as the enlightenment could be the final realisation that yes, he belongs in hell.

Two wrongs don't make a left hand turn.

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[–] reducedvision 19 years ago

lucifer was the first angel favoured by god over the rest of his choirs. until he decided to rebel his name was lucifer, after he was defeated he became Satan, a fallen angel, i.e. a devil. if anything the procedure supposedly in the books would transform a mortal into a higher being, either something like an angel or a devil... making time and space non-important. i dont think the "ninth gate" led to anywhere, more than likely merely passing through it would change you. you can find referrences to passing through gates or under archways through out the christian faith.

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[–] bickelski-1 19 years ago

yes before the fall his name was lucifer...because God spoke Latin(note sarcasm). Lucifer is an incorrect translation, its name in hebrew is sammael, sometimes satanail, beelzebub, baalzebub, baal, etc, and he wasnt the first angel favoured...he was the first one created and was therefore raised above the others from the beginning, as being created first he was the leader of the choirs some say he was a seraphim, some an archangel, and others say that those two terms are synonomous..the problem there is obvious, how does one research the names of angels and the rank structure of their heirarchy? ...it seems to me that a great deal of people here have been spoon fed their knowledge in movie theatres and sunday school...knowing very little of the actual mythos behind The Accuser and his ilk...

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[–] reducedvision 19 years ago

ha... yeah alright. i wont mention how the names you gave are actually of various demons. my knowledge of this has nothing to do with movies or the biased opinions of someone who attended sunday school.

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[–] philinla 19 years ago

<<yes before the fall his name was lucifer...because God spoke Latin(note sarcasm). Lucifer is an incorrect translation, its name in hebrew is sammael, sometimes satanail, beelzebub, baalzebub, baal, etc>>

Not exacly.

Baal was a fertility god in Caanon who predates Satan (or whichever name you wish to call him). He just got a bad rep because he was in "competition" with Yahweh early on. Many early Israelites worshiped Baal as well as Yahweh, earlier on.

Samael's history is a bit more...convoluted. He's both regarded as good, bad, and neither. The Jews both regard him as ruler of the Seventh Heaven, as the Angel of Death, or as Satan himself. In other places, he's regarded as an aspect of the Demiurge.

Beelzebub was a Philistine diety. Much like Baal, another ancient got that got bad press by the winning team. He is rarely associated as being Satan.

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[–] artemis_moon 19 years ago

isn't the angel of death called Azrael?

I, When in good humor, Give grass its green, Blazon sky blue, and endow the sun with gold

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[–] asimdb 19 years ago

I don't usually post here, but I just had to reply to this.

Jews don't have a "Seventh Heaven" (what is that anyway?) not do they believe in the Devil, Satan, Samael or any other such nonsence.

So it's not surprising that Baalzebub is not associated (by Jews) with something that acording to Jews doesn't even exist! However Baalzebub and Baal were both idols, asociated with human sacrifice. As idols (having physical form) they are quite different from God with no physical form. Not sure I'd call it "competition" but God did command that they be destroyed: a. because they were idols, and b. because of the human sacrifice.

Your post shows that while you have some grasp of the Christian religion, you don't know much about the Jewish one. Despite what Christians will tell you they are not very similar - especially with regard to God.

In the Jewish religion it's not possible for there to be some kind of Evil God (Satan, Devil etc). There is only God. Re: the angels. The angels are like animals (or computers) in that they have no free will, so it's not possible for them to do anything except for exactly what God commands them to do.

Basically every thing you wrote about Jewish beliefs is not true. How could an angel rule over anything at all if it has no free will? And Demiurge? In the Jewish religion?

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[–] kpryde-1 18 years ago

Didn't God say something like, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me?" or did the christians just screw that up? Doesn't that imply that their are, in fact, other gods? If he wanted to say that I am the only God and you should only worship me, why didn't he just say that?

Not picking a fight, I've just always been curious how this is explained.

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[–] jimmymoog 18 years ago

Honestly, I didn't care enough for the movie to care to see it again. If I could, without paying, I might, since this is a good discussion. But anyway, I think I can tackle this one for you. In this passage, "You shall have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3) God does refer to "other gods." But this is not to be taken as evidence of other gods, necessarily. God refers to "other gods" in several other places, as well, such as "Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for he did this to those who had treated Israel arrogantly." (Exodus 18:11) and "Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips." (Exodus 23:13.) Now, there are others, outside of Exodus, but these will do to illustrate my point. You see, both of the latter references are obviously references to the gods of other peoples. The reason God refers to these others as if they existed is because, in the popular gestalt of the Israelites, they did. Sure, God could have said "I am the only God and you should only worship me," but they wouldn't have listened. They were famous for this- he said not to eat off the tree, they did. He said not to pick a king, they did. He said to just follow him through the desert to the promised land, and he would hand it over to them. They didn't. So God chose this particular phrasing, just as a parent will occasionally pander to a child's mistaken belief, instead of directly contradicting it*, so that the Israelites would listen. He conceded the existence of these other gods, and proved himself more powerful than them, (1st Kings, 18-46) to show the Israelites who they ought to be following. If he outright claimed they did not exist, the Israelites who believed otherwise would not have been convinced. But to challenge one of them to a contest, and kick his butt? That's hard to deny.
And there is a second reason- because there really are other gods. Money, lust, fame, any of these can achieve godlike status in a human's eyes. Neil Gaiman's American Gods lays this out beautifully. God also meant here, do not love money more than me, do not love power more than me, etc. So there you go. Hope that helps.

* FOr example, leaving a light on to scare away monsters.

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[–] maturity 13 years ago

There are many Bible verses saying "there are no other gods" or "I am the only God" or "there is only one god." Isaiah 45:5, Deuteronomy 4:35, 1 Corinthians 8:4, 1 Chronicles 17:20, among others. You can can find more on Biblos or other Bible study websites. It's my understanding that these "other gods" represent either Satan or his demons. They have no real power, except the suggestion and the blind obedience of ignorant people (like Balkan).

Maybe God went along with their mistaken beliefs like children, but I think it makes sense to treat everyone that way. Jesus talked to people where they were and responded to the questions they asked, even if it was a dumb question or a question that made false assumptions. Giving another person the benefit of the doubt is called the logical principle of charity. Realize they could be right, you could be wrong (at least in some contexts). You'll either give them enough rope to hang themselves or hopefully show the absurdity or contradiction their positions have. Parents aren't a good metaphor for God, IMO. That is reasoning based on "Fight Club," not scripture. God is not a human father. Just saying a person is wrong convinces nobody. Presenting "evidence" doesn't convince many, people have a short memory. Look at the Israelites, they saw God part the sea, supposedly, and yet went right back to idol worship and fornication.

Either they were idiots or flawed by design. That is just the kind of evidence that hard atheists would love to see, but I don't think it would convince them any more than it did the Jews. Nowadays, they would say they're mentally ill - even if there were countless witnesses. Or they'd say it's a magic trick or we are in a computer simulation, like "The Matrix" (movies) or "Permutation City" (novel). Or they'll say it's advanced technology or aliens. They'll believe in "Anything but God" (that should be their motto).

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[–] Colkitto 16 years ago

Baalzebub / Beelzebub wasn't anybody's idol by that name. It's a deliberate mangling of the title Baalzebul.

____________________________
"An inglorious peace is better than a dishonourable war" ~ John Adams

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[–] saxman418 13 years ago

Anyone interested in the Jewish interpretation of Samael should view http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=106&letter=S

Blowin' the changes!

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] jcpedo 19 years ago

I think the purpose of the movie was to say 'heaven' is subjective and entirely dependant on point of view.

Corso may very well have found his 'heaven'

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] nelephant 19 years ago

has anyone else notice the girl is similiar with a woman in the ninth illustration, leading you to the ninth gate? that kind of makes sense.

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[–] artemis_moon 19 years ago

Yes she is the woman in the illustration, she was on some kinda beast wasn't she? that's why i thought she might be the whore of babylon or something. it seems she's some kinda demon or succubus. Corso being the devil doesn't convince me in the slightest.

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise

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[–] CowCrayzee 19 years ago

corso isn't the devil. And if you look all the 9 pictures are things that happened to him through the movie

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[–] sanhuezaehijos-ltda 19 years ago

come on, the girl´s the devil, there´s no question about it

anyway, i´ve always thought of the devil as a particularly beautiful blonde woman; loved the way polanski illustrated it...

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[–] mike-3159 19 years ago

Finally, some who has a clue what the movie is really about. The first time I watched the movie I was disgusted by the sudden ending, after watching again I realized I had completely missed the whole plot. The Girl is not the Devil, nor is Corso, she has been sent to guide Corso through the nine Gates to Hell, like a recruiter, leading a prospect to the Master. CowCrayzee is preceptive and is correct that Corso experienced all of the Nine Gates, assisted by the Girl and in the Ninth Gate Drawing is shown the way to Hell by the Girl. Two of the obvious Gates he passed were his Friend hanging upside down with his leg in a figure four position, the second when the exterior stairway collapsed. A much more subtle Gate was near the beginning when Corso was lead up the elevator to Balkan's private collection. Balkan entered the code to the elevator by pressing #3 three times, and again pressing #3 three times to enter the Book Vault. This is the Gate that showed the man holding the three keys in his right hand.
I won't tell any more because thats the true enjoyment of this movie, finding all the gates he's passed. The reason people hate the ending is because they have absolutely no clue what movie is really about, which is understandable
because Polanski designed it the way. It takes move than one viewing and
an involved thought process to appreciate how good this movie really is. I have never cared for Polanski's films but I really enjoyed "The Ninth Gate"
and it consumed my thoughts until I understood what the Movie was showing me that I failed to see. Most Critics panned the movie which is a shame, they watch it once, write about it, then forget it and move on to the next film, thereby completely missing the real story. thebull

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[–] dgrunmann 19 years ago

yea... i agree... i always thought of the girl as a witch or magical entity... but never the devil.. and corso seems human to me aswell...

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[–] expmonkey 19 years ago

I could have sworn he pressed the number 6 three times, not 3

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[–] taowolf7 19 years ago

Yup, he did... I played the scene back in slow-motion and zoomed in to see for sure, just out of curiosity. :-)

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[–] Werewolfy 18 years ago

Rofl $hit, I always thought that the girl was supposed to be a hot angel or something. Guess I was wrong. Now that I know that she's an agent of satan or maybe even satan herself it's even hotter!! :D

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[–] king_of_bob 19 years ago

the numbers he pushed were sixes, not threes

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[–] Depeche-Priest 17 years ago

Please tell me the other gates(Symbolism) that Mr.Corso(Depp) passed throughout the movie (I wanna know!)
Formerly "Def-Leppard"

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[–] vagingo 16 years ago

In the illustrations, the man is holding two keys, not three.

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[–] senua 13 years ago

Two doors opened with two electronic keys?

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[–] mintho 19 years ago

In the train she said that she was "sort of a student" and in the plain she said that she was "sort of a guardian angel". So she's probably some sort of fallen angel and an apprentice of Lucifer who was sent from hell to lead Corso to his destiny, which was to summon Lucifer and thru that become allmighty.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] Randlefeild 19 years ago

well said jtucker7 9 thats how i saw the film satan sent the girl to see if he was worthy and he was, so she helped him along,corso was just a man , blood flesh nothing more and the women , was sent by the devil to guide him along, i watched this movie 5 times at cinemas, *beep* awsome movie.

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[–] sanhuezaehijos-ltda 19 years ago

i think you are overthinking the whole thing.

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[–] Samos74 19 years ago

the girl is satan's brother darrell and corso is his other brother darrell

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[–] artemis_moon 19 years ago

of course

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise

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[–] jcpedo 19 years ago

I took 'the Girl' to be the Devil, and not a messenger, witch, deputy etc... When she referred to herself as a 'student' - I took that to mean she was a student of humankind.

As for her reading 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' in the foyer of the hotel, that sealed it for me.

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[–] chains01 19 years ago

I loved the ending to this movie mainly because Polanski left it vague in an effort to give you a chance to figure out the meaning on your own. I see it as Satan's trick. He promises people that by using this book you can have power unknown, only for them to sell their souls to him/her, and die in their effort to test their new found powers. The woman was Satan guiding Corso who fell in love with the idea of power and the girl who looked quite unnerving while she was making love to him.

Something else I just thought of was the fact that it was never clearly specified who killed the former owners of the book. One would think had it been Telfer, why weren't the pages displayed before her at the meeting when Balkan came to get the book she had stolen from Corso. I honestly think that it was the girl in an effort to aid Corso. And I think she was the one who presented them to Balkan during the period of time after Corso flooded the vehicle and then before he found him at the castle. Great movie!

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] getanewchant 18 years ago

Corso is not the devil. At the end when he enters the ninth gate look at the window. You see a shadowy figure standing there.

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[–] Ctdaugherty 17 years ago

No; actually I don't. I looked. Maybe in the illustration, not when it shifts to corso entering for 'real'.

there is one, on the cover of the dvd; that was it...

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[–] the_shillelagh 17 years ago

This 'shadowy figure' is discussed elsewhere in this board. It is evident in many photos of Chateau Puivert and is just the shape of the window...

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[–] jcpedo 19 years ago

I thought the person doing the killing was Balkan as he had all the pages at from the other books and expressed no surprise at all when Corso told him they were dead...

"... hmmm how tragic - and the other book?" (or along those lines :p )

Also it was fairly clear that Balkan was 'keeping an eye on his investment' as he put it and as soon as Corso told Balkan about the disparity in the etchings the pages started getting ripped out.

Telfer had no no idea about this.

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[–] end_of_insanity 18 years ago

And does Corso not say 'you killed for this, these are worth more than money'
Or something to that affect. Suggesting, to me at least, that it was Balkan who did this killing.

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[–] lks3 19 years ago

You know the tagline: "Leave the unknown alone". You better leave this mystery, i'm telling you.

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