The moral premise


Am I the only one who thought the moral premise - the whole basis for the movie's plot - was wrong?

We have a planet of 600 people who get to live forever. Now if they get kicked off, the system's resources, which could save billions of lives, could be harnessed. And the point is it's wrong to deny these 600 their home, their immortality, and their "ideal" lifestyle because it's rightfully theirs. Even though billions of people could be helped by doing so.

Excuse me, what?

I have no sympathy for people who have already lived a hugely extended lifespan and want immortality at the cost of many, many other lives. I don't care if the planet is "theirs", it's wrong for them to keep it and they should GET THE HELL OUT of there.

Look up "eminent domain" and try to tell me this isn't a valid example.

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Roger Ebert (http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19981211/REV IEWS/812110304/1023) has some interesting information:

Wouldn't it be right to sacrifice the lifestyles of 600 Ba'ku in order to save billions? "I think maybe I would," said Jonathan Frakes, the film's director and co-star, when I asked him that question after the movie's press screening.

"You've got to be flexible," Stewart said. "If it had been left in the hands of Picard, some solution could have been found." "Absolutely!" Spiner said. "I think I raised that question more than once."

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First of all there was a complate looting out of a planet's natural resources in question. Just for faster consumption....As stated in Picard/Dougrey arguement Son'a was not even willing to establish a secret colony themselves in planet (which Ba'ku would not object since it is a big planet and Ba'ku is just 600 people in one location besides Ba'ku had no quarrel with Son'a , they were their descendents) because they want a faster life and do not want to be stuck in the middle of Briar Patch (as if they have a choice since they are a sick and dying race , they should consider themselves lucky because they found such planet) and they hate Ba'ku since they send Son'a in exile

Starfleet and Federation in Dougrey's case were complate hypocrites. Again a secret Federation colony could have been established on the planet or regenerative particles on planets rings could have been studied more (research takes time) But no they decided to relocate Ba'ku because it suited an easier solution , faster consumption. Like sending Native Indians away by force in 18th or 19th century so their lands could be exploited for mining , farming , foresting etc..it was disgusting then , worst excess of imperialism. If one precedent such as this was made then what ? Another incident like this then another forced relocation because it suited bigger issues ? Then Federation looks no different than Cardassians or Romulans in their worst times...

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individual rights > your intentions

Keep on reading that John Stuart Mill.

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I agree with the moral premise, mainly because these people should have been left alone, and allowed to prosper without intervention.

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[deleted]

To take this as a case of majority rules, it's revealled in the argument between Picard and the admiral that the face lift crowd settling on the planet might have to wait 10 years to feel the benefits and some might die before then. So really, mining the place was in the interests of those few - an even smaller minority than the 600 incumbent settlers.

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It's interesting that one of the lesser Trek films has inspired a six page debate. There are posts criticising Insurrection's lack of a moral message. Maybe that's its strength: it inspires a debate on these moral/ethical issues instead of ramming a holier-than-thou POV down our throats.

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I guess AirDragon (the OP) wouldn't mind it then if I robbed his home for things I want for me and my people. Actually just give me the whole house and get the hell out. You don't mind do you? No of course you don't...tell you what you move out now and I'll let you live. This is playing by your own rules you know; still think the moral premise was wrong?

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Thats called Egoism. And as we know, all žizms are bad (fascism, communism, feminism, feudalism,ect).

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Individualism.


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1-22-13

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And as Captain Picard asks:

How many people does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong? Hmm? A thousand, fifty thousand, a million? How many people does it take, Admiral?


The planet's rings can help a lot of people, but so can animal testing.

And you're right. It's unfair for the neighbours to have a 42" LCD TV and we don't so we should just take it from them.

douche

"Come, come, Mr. Scott. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant." - James T. Kirk

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And that's another thing. Despite what Admiral Dougherty says, relocating the Baku cause the Federation wants, repeat WANTS, their planet is in direct violation of the prime directive.

They're not indigenous, no. BUT they are a culture that claimed the planet as their own LONG before Archer commanded the NX-01. And relocating the planet's population is interfering with that culture. Thereby directly violating the prime directive.

Picard and the Enterprise were upholding the prime directive.

"Come, come, Mr. Scott. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant." - James T. Kirk

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To help billions, how much innocent blood are you willing to spill? Hm? Are you willing to murder a child if it means saving millions of people?

The V2 rocket. Just to go out into space, are you willing to forget the number of people murdered cause Hitler wanted to the V2 to be a weapon of murder instead of its original purpose of exploration?

"Come, come, Mr. Scott. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant." - James T. Kirk

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And if the needs of the many does outweigh the needs of the few, who decides that? Hm? And who gave them that right? And how often has those needs resulted in the consequence of Slavery?

"Come, come, Mr. Scott. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant." - James T. Kirk

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I suppose a good comparison for this would be the Aboriginal people and their relationship with the whites of Australia, my home country. If anything, the Aboriginals have a more valid claim to the country because they've been here for 10,000 years, but the whites have (of the 26th of Januarary, 2009) been here for 222 years.

The only reason why it's not their country (which, by all rights, it should be) is because their culture dictates that they belong to the land; instead of the 18th century British view that land belonged to the people.

So, my point is, if the Baku'u considered the planet to be theirs, why can't it be? After all, they got there first.

Trekkies argue...get used to it.

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Basically that's it. The Baku established that planet a century before the Federation was even formed.

"Come, come, Mr. Scott. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant." - James T. Kirk

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Are you willing to murder a child if it means saving millions of people?
Yes.

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I'm very responsible, when ever something goes wrong they always say I'm responsible.

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And how much blood are you willing to spill for simple desire? How many must die? How many is too much?

"We are traveling to the future. Just one second at a time."

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It is never too much.

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In this universe, there's only one absolute... everything freezes!

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And still cannot see why you're the bad guy.

"We are traveling to the future. Just one second at a time."

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**CONTAINS SPOILERS**

While this movie has tons of problems, mostly of which is because it's taking 3 TNG TV plots and rolling them into one, it still hangs together remarkably well -- and isn't fan-centric like how "First Contact" was.

Partly because of its intellectual appeal, and the tone of the piece, did I enjoy "Insurrection". It's amongst my favorites...

Having said that, it's nickpickin' time:

Yes. 600 lives. They try to make a big argument over it, but they don't succeed in stressing the why of the moral situation. The two sentences devoted to saving MILLIONS if not BILLIONS contain so much more weight than the paragraphs of "forced relocation" dialogue, mostly because nobody tries to make us relate to what having to be moved at gunpoint feels like.

Maybe 600,000 or 6,000,000. But 600? They try real hard to make such a small number a big issue and it does not work.

The reason for not being able to collect the magic radiation are too focused to be taken seriously. It is contrived, like it or otherwise.

Worse, the So'na are the PARENTS of the Ba'ku. It took a couple viewings, but it seemed to me that Picard and the gang were falling in love with the piece who seem to be as villainous, if not more so, than the So'na.

Kirk would have used diplomacy to make Picard look like a stooge. The benefits vs drawbacks are abundantly clear. Kirk's era was pro-life. Picard's is being anal about "following the rules as rigidly as possible". What happened to the spirit OF the law in justifiable cases?

Also, it's hard to believe Picard is quitting Starfleet -- he did so in "First Contact", albeit as in one of many unfunny jokes. Now he's doing it "for real". Uh-huh. At the end of the movie, the story tells us that it's not all of Starfleet but just two or three corrupt people and all is hunky dorey one again. I thought that was a pathetic cop-out too. They had a terrific feature film-worthy concept and they blow it. (partly to blame was the number of hokey spinoffs they weren't really trying to keep continuity with anymore either.)

Never mind the Ba'Ku and So'na found the planet in the first place, with the Ba'ku kicking everyone else off. The blood feud thing was another nice idea, let down by writing that gives more credibility to the So'na...

And the self-destruct button toward the end was another cliché too.

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No the so'na are the children of the ba'ku

Ba'ku find planet have children, children leave and become So'na!

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"nobody tries to make us relate to what having to be moved at gunpoint feels like."
I'd agree. Picard makes two references to historical relocations but never goes into enough detail about it. It would have been good to express more about what these relocations are like.

"Maybe 600,000 or 6,000,000. But 600? They try real hard to make such a small number a big issue and it does not work."

I think that's actually one of the strengths of this film. We're so used to huge numbers of people being at stake in sci-fi/fantasy films making it feel more epic, so how do we handle it when it's a smaller number? Does it somehow become more moral when the number gets smaller?
Picard himself makes a point of "How many before it becomes wrong?"

"The reason for not being able to collect the magic radiation are too focused to be taken seriously. It is contrived, like it or otherwise."

They aren't any reasons given for why they can't collect the radiation. The Admiral himself says he doesn't understand the science and just says that many scientist couldn't find another way. That's about it.

"Kirk would have used diplomacy to make Picard look like a stooge. The benefits vs drawbacks are abundantly clear. Kirk's era was pro-life."

Not entirely sure of your point, but here it goes:
Picard would have used, diplomacy, in fact he did. He talked with the Admiral, and was basically told STFU. The So'na were clearly determined to get what they wanted and weren't in any mood to talk. The Ba'ku may have been happy to talk, but frankly were in danger from the outset and needed protection first and foremost.
You're forgetting the time element. The Federation was in trouble and needed something to help it, the So'na were happy to give it only if they did it their way. The controversy of the issue meant they had to be covert if they were going to get what they wanted, and when it comes to something like this, you either do it fast and be done, or be found out and have the plans come to a halt. Once Picard caught whiff of the plan (which was literally in its final stages at the time), it was either rush it to its finish or give up and face huge consequences when everyone found out (and wait years before diplomacy and debate let another opportunity emerge)

"Picard's is being anal about "following the rules as rigidly as possible". What happened to the spirit OF the law in justifiable cases?"

To be honest, I think Picard does. I've noticed many people have strong morals but cloak them in procedure and rules of law. The moment the two diverge, they go with their own morals.
Since StarFleet gave the order for what was to happen to the planet, and that the Prime Directive didn't apply since the people were warp capable, couldn't it be argued that a person who rigidly follows rules would follow orders and leave the people alone? Instead what does Picard do?

"Also, it's hard to believe Picard is quitting Starfleet"
I think the removing of the pips were more symbolic, he never even told anyone. It ends with him saying he'd prefer to continue to serve Starfleet then stay on the planet.

"And the self-destruct button toward the end was another cliché too."
True. (Though it was a pretty complex procedure, and the moment where Picard showed he was willing detonate with him still on it to save lives and the ideals he upheld had a lot of impact.)

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Well put, except...First Contact was fan-centric? I had only just started to get into Star Trek when I saw that movie, and it made me a hardcore fan! It explained things to non-Trekkers through the characters of Lily and Zefram Cochrane, and by featuring the genesis of the Federation, it gave a solid reminder of the optimism and humanism of Star Trek. All with an exciting Borg storyline (they were the only really effective villains of the TNG movies). If you showed a non-fan this movie, Wrath of Khan, and a few good episodes, they might be just as hooked as I was.

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