The moral premise - Star Trek: Insurrection (1998) Discussion

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] HorodyskiJ 11 years ago

Um, I know I'm a little late coming to this argument as I'm just reading these posts, but for the sake of any future readers as to the moral justification for moving the Ba'ku off the planet, I would like to remind everyone of the mantra quoted frequently in the original ST films:

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

In other words, following Star Trek's own philosophy, the needs of the many (the billions who could benefit from the medical effects of living on the planet) outweigh the needs of the few (the 600 Ba'ku living on the planet). It seems the writers either forget or ignored Trek's own philosophy and turned it on its head. It doesn't matter whether we as movie goers agree or not with the morality of the plot in the long run, as it seems the movie totally contradicts what they were trying to say in all of the original cast films. Could things have changed that much between the two generations?

Did anyone else notice this inconsistency?

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[–] Blackjack254 11 years ago

THE POINT is, Dougherty was committing an illegal operation, and he was teaming up with thugs who secretly wanted to slaughter the Ba'ku. Also, it is STRONGLY implied that destroying the Ba'ku homeworld is not nessecary to harness the radiation, seeing as the Enterprise crew starts to experience the benefits of the radiation the MINUTE they enter the Briar Patch.

Also, think about this: Why would the Federation assign Data to Dougherty's team, and yet Data had no knowledge of the holoship?

How you can make the world a better place:
Don't shop at Wal-Mart.

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[–] tobyrclark 11 years ago

You really think that "The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few" is a valid justification for acts of war against an defenceless nation who aren't a threat to you or anyone else?

The Angels Have the Phone Box

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[–] TalnReich 11 years ago

My problem with the "the Baku are right"-Faction is, that they liken the Baku-Relocation to Genocide or hystorical Relocations, even though it is absolutly nothing like this. Think about it, UFP's original plan was that way, that the Baku wouldn't have noticed the relocation (at least until the lack of this metaphysical Radiation become apperant), meaning the Fed's have found a region on Planet nearly identical to the one the Baku already inhabit (minus the Metaphysical radiation). Now you might argue, that the loss of the metaphysical Radiation would disrupt the Baku's way of life, but this isn't the Case, since, if the Fed's get this "immortality-Cure" they also can this share with the relocated Baku, meaning there Way of life wouldn't be disrupted even a little bit. (And, no, the necessary Contact wouldn't break the prime directive - the Baku are a post warp-culture, therefore no rule against contact). And, in addition, the Fed's can restore the Planet, just think of that one Guy who appeared in DS9 and performs Terraforming as an form of Art. So even the Relocation would be a temporary measure.

Therefore I fail to see even a minor inconvenience. It's not like expulse the Indians from a territory for the Sake of some Goldminers. It's rather like if some guy could, just by moving for one or two years from his house to an exact replica, with exact the same connection to all infrastructure, save millions of lives. Wouldn't that guy be a Jerk for insisting on staying?

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[–] tobyrclark 11 years ago

Whether or not you want to compare it to historical relocatins, it's still kidnapping and subjugating innocent people and destroying their homes for your own purposes. It's a crime, regardless of what spurious loopholes Dougherty makes up to justify it, it's morally at odds with everything Star Trek has ever advocated, and aside from that, it's not even a good practical solution when you think about it.

The Angels Have the Phone Box

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[–] TalnReich 11 years ago

it's still kidnapping and subjugating innocent people

not really. "Kidnapping" don't apply since neither force nor fraud is involved, and it isn't subjugation since "subjugation" is defined as "To forcibly impose obedience or servitude." which also isn't the Case (the Baku wouldn't be forced to do what the federation tells them).

for your own purposes.

regardless of what spurious loopholes Dougherty makes up to justify it

It's neither for just their own purpose nor just justified though some loopholes - it's to save billions of lives! Without any harm for the Baku whatsoever. Morrally rather Justified, IMO.

it's not even a good practical solution when you think about it.

I disagree. Shipping every critically injured, sick or aged person to the same remote backwater Planet is hardly a practical Solution. Harvesting these Radiation particels and distribute them to hospitals and Sick Bays seem more practical to me.

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[–] tobyrclark 11 years ago

Beaming people off the planet off the planet against their wishes is force. Attempting to trick them into believing they haven't left using holograms is fraud. And the Federation basically telling another race where they can and can't live because the colony they've lived in since long before the Federation even existed happens to fall within "Federation space"? It's subjugation, and a horrifying precedent for them to set.

As for the practicality of the solution, reducing the radiation to a finite supply of particles and distributing them to field hospitals is not going to turn the tide of the war and is still going to leave hundreds of billions dead because the vast majority of casualties are going to be on destroyed starships or captured planets. Leaving the planet intact and setting up as many colonies across the Briar Patch as possible is a far more reliable plan for helping billions in the long term.

The Angels Have the Phone Box

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[–] TalnReich 11 years ago

Beaming people off the planet off the planet against their wishes is force. Attempting to trick them into believing they haven't left using holograms is fraud. And the Federation basically telling another race where they can and can't live because the colony they've lived in since long before the Federation even existed happens to fall within "Federation space"? It's subjugation, and a horrifying precedent for them to set.

That can actually solved pretty easy: Just tell the Baku what's going around: "Hey Guys, we know a way to use this miracle-radiation-particals of yours for a miracle cure that will save billions of lives. Yes, it will turn your planet uninhabitable, but we found a place that's indistinguishable from your's [*prove that this claim is right*] and will share this miracle cure with you, so nothing will change for you, but billions of peoples will be saved. Are you okay with that deal?" and if they say "No" they are egoistical jerks. In fact, this Question should have been the first one asked after the discovery, that the Baku aren't some natives. The Movie just didn't do this, since this would either have resolved the conflict (if the Baku say 'Yes') or exposed them as the biggest Egoists in the Universe (if the say 'No').

As for the practicality of the solution, reducing the radiation to a finite supply of particles and distributing them to field hospitals is not going to turn the tide of the war and is still going to leave hundreds of billions dead because the vast majority of casualties are going to be on destroyed starships or captured planets. Leaving the planet intact and setting up as many colonies across the Briar Patch as possible is a far more reliable plan for helping billions in the long term.

I'm not talking about the Dominion war. Even without war related fatalaty causes the number of people who could be saved by the miracle-cure will lie within a multi-billion scale (my own estimate is about 5 Billion every year at minimum [assuming a federation population of about one trillion and a life expectancy of abouit 200 years excluding violent deaths] ).

And, no, your plan much less practicable, since it would requiere the relocation of billions of people into a rather inacessiable region of space, which would keep the entire starfleet busy for centuries. Far more practicable to just resettle this 600 Luddites.

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[–] tobyrclark 11 years ago

In fact, this Question should have been the first one asked after the discovery, that the Baku aren't some natives. The Movie just didn't do this, since this would either have resolved the conflict (if the Baku say 'Yes') or exposed them as the biggest Egoists in the Universe (if the say 'No').

Either way, if the Federation were still willing to resort to mass-kidnapping, theft and destruction of property to solve their problems when other options are available, they'd be scarcely any better than the Dominion or the Borg and the Ba'ku still have the moral high ground.

The Angels Have the Phone Box

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[–] TalnReich 11 years ago

were still willing to resort to mass-kidnapping, theft and destruction of property

All Laws in this reagrd allways make an excuse, if it is necessary to save lives. And this is an espacially extreme case, with at minimum 80 Million lives (my 5 Billion Lives a year figure divided though the 600 Baku) saved for every Baku every year, while, as I already explained, little to no discomfort for the Baku if they would allow the Federation to harvest the Radiation particels.

they'd be scarcely any better than the Dominion or the Borg and the Ba'ku still have the moral high ground.

No, the Fed's would still be better. The Dominion or the Borg don't care about saving lives, and I really can't see a moral high ground for somebody who is okay with letting billions die even though he coulod do something against that without any disadvanteges.

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[–] tobyrclark 11 years ago

If the Ba'ku were outright preventing outsiders from landing on the planet, you might have a case. If they were occupying a planet where only a small percentage of the land was even habitable, you might have a case. But as it stands, the Federation are capable of helping tens, probably hundreds of billions of lives (keep in mind you don't have to be anywhere near the planet to feel the effects of the radiation) over an indefinite period of time (certainly longer than it would take to use up whatever they'd get out of the Son'a machine, if it even works the way they claim it does), without having to resort to a morally despicable abuse of military power against defenceless people.

The Angels Have the Phone Box

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[–] TalnReich 11 years ago

If the Ba'ku were outright preventing outsiders from landing on the planet, you might have a case. If they were occupying a planet where only a small percentage of the land was even habitable, you might have a case. But as it stands, the Federation are capable of helping tens, probably hundreds of billions of lives (keep in mind you don't have to be anywhere near the planet to feel the effects of the radiation) over an indefinite period of time

I explained it already several times. The Briar Patch is an extremly Starship-unfriendly region (that's the reason the Son'a aren't living there), and using the miracle-Radiation by bringing all the people who need it to this place would require shipping Billions. Where should Starfleet take that kind of transport capacity from? That's plain impossible.

(certainly longer than it would take to use up whatever they'd get out of the Son'a machine, if it even works the way they claim it does)

I don't see that much, that backs up your claim, that the reach of the miracle-Cure the Son'a machine is going to produce would be shorter than the natural phenomena. Rather the other way around, honestly: with the Cure you can get every single radiation-particle to it's most effective use, while the natural ones radiate constantly into empty space.

without having to resort to a morally despicable abuse of military power against defenceless people.

As I also already explained: this could be easily solved just by talking.

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[–] tobyrclark 11 years ago

The Briar Patch is an extremly Starship-unfriendly region

Which the Enterprise was easily adapted to in a matter of, what, hours? And they got to the planet in one piece, as did Dougherty's ship and each of the Son'a ships. Plus, the Federation has transport ships and stations capable of carrying thousands. This is not as unworkable as you're making it out to be.

As I also already explained: this could be easily solved just by talking.

So if the Ba'ku entered negotiations and brought up the above as an alternative to them giving up their homes for the sake of a short-term potentially detrimental plan hastily put together by people the Federation have no reason to trust - you'd still consider anything the Federation did afterward justified, no matter how criminal.

The Angels Have the Phone Box

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[–] TalnReich 11 years ago

Which the Enterprise was easily adapted to in a matter of, what, hours? And they got to the planet in one piece, as did Dougherty's ship and each of the Son'a ships.

And the Son'a ship's didn't come out in one piece, due to their impulse-Engines getting contact with one of these clouds lingering in that region (yes, this was due to the Enterprise purposefully arranging this, but still...). Yeah, totally save to fly millions of starships into this region.

Plus, the Federation has transport ships and stations capable of carrying thousands. This is not as unworkable as you're making it out to be.

A Galaxy-Class Starship has a Capacity for about 1000 People. Transporting 5 Billion People would therefore require 5 million flights of Galaxy-class Starships. Assuming this flight takes one week (rather too short than too long) the Fed's would need about 96.153 Galaxy-Class-Starships, solely devoted to bring sick people into the Briar Patch and the cured out of it.

It is as unworkebale as I'm making it out to be.

So if the Ba'ku entered negotiations and brought brought up the above as an alternative to them giving up their homes for the sake of a short-term potentially detrimental plan hastily put together by people the Federation have no reason to trust - you'd still consider anything the Federation did afterward justified, no matter how criminal.

1) see above about the complete insanity of your "alternative"

2) again, I see no base for your claim, that the Cure is a short term solution.

3) if the Baku are putting staying where they are (which isn't even their origin - they are still colonists, many still of the first Generation) above the lives of Billions of peoples, while, as I already explained there would be absolutly ne necessary change in their Lifestyle: yes, then the Fed's would be pretty much justified.

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[–] TalnReich 11 years ago

Though, to be honest, I recall at least four seperate Instances where the Federation already discoverd Immortality, 1) the TOS-Episode with the Colony on a planet with a plant that emit a Spore that restores health, 2) the TNG-Episode where some Admiral get's his hands one some super-Deageing serum (and takes an overdose) ,3) "unnatural selection" (also TNG) where Dr. Pulaski finds a way to deage herself, 4) the TNG episode where due to some transporter incedent Picard, Ro, Guinan and Keiko are turned into children.

That basicly means the UFP already knows four (!) different ways of curing old age. It just never comes up again.

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[–] Protozoid 11 years ago

The OP misunderstands, I think.

The inhabitants of the planet were willing to share the land as co-habitants.

But the metaphasic energy is too weak to heal the Son'a at ambient levels. They need to extract all of the energy in order to give themselves more potent doses.

However, the process of collecting all the energy would kill the inhabitants of the planet.

The moral quandry is whether it's okay to forcibly move smaller society's out of the way of larger ones that are seeking to strip resources from land that doesn't belong to them.

It's a pretty solid premise. It was workshopped to death during the writing phase and you can read about it in Michael Piller's book about his experience writing Insurrection. I think the plot is pretty solid, actually. I'd even venture to say it's the only TNG movie that doesn't have massive plot holes.

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[–] Danzence 10 years ago

The Baku already live there, it's their planet. End of discussion.

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