So the bugs never attacked Earth - Starship Troopers (1997) Discussion

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Yep, you're not off at all. What you said is the entire point Paul Verhoeven was trying to make with this film and people just didn't get it in 1997 lol. They still don't get it.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Time to elect politicians who support better education of the masses.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

That will never happen, they're criminals, bought and paid for. They have no interest in an educated populace capable of critical thinking.

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[–] TimMC (9143) 4 years ago

Deleted knowledge.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

In the novel which the director couldn't be bothered finishing the bugs were a lot more intelligent and had more capabilities than they do in the film.

The novel is very conservative and was written by an ex serviceman. The director was more interested in trying to satirize conservatives. He doesn't do a good job of that either.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

You are forsaken.

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[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

The novel (and Heinlein too) is fascist. Verhoeven made his interpretation a satire and a warning AGAINST fascism. And a very entertaining one at that.

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 3 years ago

You cannot be serious.
You have no idea what fascism is if you think that is the case.
The film doesn't even present a fascist government, let a lone the book.
Please give me some examples of fascism you saw in the film. You will not find any in the book, which I am sure you have not read.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

The movie and book are set in a liberal democracy.

The bugs knocked an asteroid out of its orbit and it impacted Earth.

It's not explained in the movie but the government guaranteed everyone a job because federal service was required to vote, but had trouble fulfilling the promise because Earth was overpopulated. So they created a lot of extremely dangerous jobs to dissuade as many as possible from federal service and if they died well tough break. So the colonization and invasion were solutions to overpopulation. They threw troopers at the problem because they had a lot of troopers and life was cheap.

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[–] jackspicer (4) 3 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Ranb (10318) 3 years ago

Your interpretation of the book and film are off. The book did not treat soldiers (MI) as cannon fodder, but the film did.

The films soldiers did not seem to be well trained; most of them did not bother to even use the sights on their rifles and the ship pilots flew so close to each other that collisions happened even in the vastness of space.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

You read the book so you know federal service wasn't limited to military service, and the most dangerous jobs were given to low scoring people.

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[–] Ranb (10318) 3 years ago

Where in the book did it say "the most dangerous jobs were given to low scoring people"?

I do recall a person saying no could be ejected for federal service unless they were unable to understand the oath.

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[–] JoeBlow88 (573) 3 years ago

Its been a long time since I read the book, but the federal service had a job for every one and they did not try to kill off their citizens. The mobile infantry was a very small force because the men wore super advanced power armor suites. One man in power armor was essentially a battalion of men.

At the start of the book they were fighting some other alien race, i kind of thought of them as the Protoss and the arachnids as the Zerg.

From what I remember, the key point was that citizenship had to be earned through self sacrifice for the greater good. A valid political point of view IMO.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 2 years ago

Been awhile but there is a part in the book where low scoring people are given dangerous jobs like scrubbing rocket engines in space, or something like that, which has a high mortality rate.

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[–] Ranb (10318) 2 years ago

This part?

I asked one of the doctors what percentage of the victims flunked the physical. He looked startled. "Why, we never fail anyone. The law doesn't permit us to.”

"Huh? I mean, Excuse me, Doctor? Then what's the point of this goose-flesh parade?”

"Why, the purpose is," he answered, hauling off and hitting me in the knee with a hammer (I kicked him, but not hard), "to find out what duties you are physically able to perform. But if you came in here in a wheel chair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to insist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath.”

It seems everyone is allowed to serve, they just have to put them in a job that suits them.

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[–] Ranb (10318) 2 years ago

Was it the triple amputee that tried to discourage Juan and Carl from joining?

"Let's assume that you don't wind up digging tunnels on Luna or playing human guinea pig for new diseases through sheer lack of talent; suppose we do make a fighting man out of you. Take a look at me -- this is what you may buy . . . if you don't buy the whole farm and cause your folks to receive a `deeply regret' telegram. Which is more likely, because these days, in training or in combat, there aren't many wounded. If you buy it at all, they likely throw in a coffin -- I'm the rare exception; I was lucky . . . though maybe you wouldn't call it luck.”

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[–] JBran (1682) 5 years ago

The bugs sent the meteor to destroy Buenos Aires. And i say... kill em, kill em all!

If the Ships can do faster than light then so can whatever the bugs are doing.

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 5 years ago

The bugs sent the meteor to destroy Buenos Aires.

How exactly?

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[–] JBran (1682) 5 years ago

You see the big bugs sending rocks up to destroy the fleet. That’s how. And they might have sent one years ago,

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 5 years ago

Klendathu is ~40,000 light-years from Earth. There is no way the bugs could shoot a meteor at earth after the attack on the Mormon colony. That would require a warp drive on the meteor(which the bugs do not have), not to mention the impossible accuracy required to hit a planet, let alone a city on the planet, 40,000 light-years away(which the bugs also do not have).

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[–] MisterE (734) 3 years ago

That is what happened, though. The meteor is the same one that Carmen's ship narrowly avoids. It destroys the communications array on Carmen's ship and they can't warn Earth that the meteor is inbound.

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 3 years ago

Or, bare with me here, Verhoven could have actually read the book and followed it enough for things to make sense.
In the book(one of my favorites) the bugs have warp technology and spaceships. They attack Buenos Aires with spacecraft, destroying it.
The way the movie is written either it was a false flag attack used as a catalyst for war, or it was written moronically.

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[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

False flag of course.

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[–] thingmakersback (1414) 3 years ago

Except that based on the sledgehammer approach to satire in the film, I would only buy the false flag explanation if it were STRONGLY hinted at.

I mean, the Nazis apparently didn't burn the Reichstag and I do not believe any of the 911 conspiracy twaddle. Sometimes the target of an unscrupulous government takes exactly the right action for reprisals and policy changes to look appropriate.

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[–] Karl Aksel (1490) 3 years ago

Except that based on the sledgehammer approach to satire in the film, I would only buy the false flag explanation if it were STRONGLY hinted at.

Exactly right. If these were real events requiring rational explanations, then sure: a false flag attack. But since this is just a movie, the only explanation needed is "it's just a movie, don't overthink it". There was no hint whatsoever that the bug attack was actually a false flag, therefore - since this is a work of fiction - it follows that the attack took place exactly as the movie presented it: a bug attack from a distant planet.

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 2 years ago

That would be true if it didn't have source material that actually made sense, and was claimed as the source material for the film, even though Verhoven never even bothered to read it.

You have clearly chosen "moronically written" instead of "false flag".

I am a Verhoven fan(for the most part), but this film was executed horribly when compared to the source material. A lot like Rings of Power.

As a stand alone film it is awesome. Unlike RIngs of Power.

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[–] Karl Aksel (1490) 2 years ago

That would be true if it didn't have source material that actually made sense, and was claimed as the source material for the film, even though Verhoven never even bothered to read it.

That is neither here nor there. It's still just a movie, don't overthink it.

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 2 years ago

Ignore one of, if not my most, favorite novels in order to give credence to a film falsely claimed to be based on it?
Huge pass.
Same with the theatrical version of Timeline. One of only two films I ever walked out of the theater during. The other being Spun, which had cinematography that made me nauseated.

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[–] Karl Aksel (1490) 2 years ago

Ignore one of, if not my most, favorite novels in order to give credence to a film falsely claimed to be based on it?

Pretty standard for transfers to the silver screen. Seen the Hobbit movies?

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 2 years ago

Yes, and I have many issues with those films as well.
First and foremost, it should only have been one film, not three.
Two is pushing it. Three is absurd.

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 2 years ago

911 conspiracy twaddle

Tell me you failed high school physics without telling me you failed high school physics.

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[–] brux (14807) 3 years ago

That is the perils of silly science fiction ... instantaneous travel and communication that is not possible to tell a silly story. Ya just gotta go with the flow here!

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 3 years ago

Or, bare with me here, Verhoven could have actually read the book and followed it enough for things to make sense.
In the book(one of my favorites) the bugs have warp technology and spaceships. They attack Buenos Aires with spacecraft, destroying it.
The way the movie is written either it was a false flag attack used as a catalyst for war, or it was written moronically.

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[–] brux (14807) 3 years ago

I have to say there could be other possibilities.

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 3 years ago

brux (11264) 8 days ago

I have to say there could be other possibilities.

Such as?

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[–] brux (14807) 2 years ago

The movie made sense.

> Verhoven could have actually read the book and followed it enough for things to make sense.

Having read the book, I don't think following the book exactly would make a good movie. Verhoeven's movie was pretty good and captured the essence of the idea of the book.

The one thing I did not like about the movie was the absence of the power suits. The effects in the movie were cool, but the suits, and the one shot rifles were not impressive or believable.

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 2 years ago

Verhoven got everything wrong with his portrayal.
Heinlein's book had nothing to do with facism. It was a liberal utopia minus citizenship requirements.
Carl breaks down the politics quite well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVpYvV0O7uI
Everything else was ignored or altered so that it no longer resembled the books at any level above superficial.

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[–] brux (14807) 2 years ago

Since I saw the movie, and even before I knew there was a movie, I knew that if there ever was a movie of this book that it would be its own literary interpretation, its own work of art, so to speak.

I don't begrudge the movie for that, because of that. Following the book would have been all but impossible, but including all the ideas in the book would have been impossible.

Unlike most comments on this movie I didn't feel the book or the movie were about fascism overtly. I don't recall seeing any overt attacks on anyone who protested the war, aside from some sound bytes that made them look stupid, which they were. They have to try to find some provocative controversy to get people fighting and arguing about everything in order to whip up more buzz and sell more tickets.

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 2 years ago

Verhoven stated that it was about a fascist society.
He doesn't know what fascism is, and hence wrote a story that was supposedly depicting fascism, that was actually devoid of any of it.
Verhoven failed miserably at conveying what he intended to(and lost a lot of respect from me in the process).

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[–] jackspicer (4) 3 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ultravioletx (10237) 5 years ago

It's an interesting idea. The meteor is the catalyst for the jingoism that leads to the first infantry battle. I don't agree with the population control idea because the infantry had a clear objective to get the brain bug which might not be achievable with a full-on extermination. It does point out that the military was more interested in the brain bug than it was the lives of their own soldiers, which was probably a point Verhoeven was trying to make.

Overall I believe the meteor was Verhoeven being ambiguous again. There's no path that shows the brain bug being able to do it, and there's no evidence humans did it to themselves. It's like it's telling you to decide much like with Total Recall.

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[–] brux (14807) 3 years ago

> the military was more interested in the brain bug than it was the lives of their own soldiers, which was probably a point Verhoeven was trying to make.

Ever see any documentary about the German Enigma machine? The Allied military was more interested in keeping the secret that they were able to decipher the German communications than they were in the lives of their citizens and soldiers. The brain bug was a strategic movie ... at least that is the way it was played in the movie. How they did it ???? ... it's a movie, what do you expect. But the point is you prioritize and you use the force you can bring to bear in war. I really don't see the fascist in this movie that a lot of people do.

It's one of my favorites though.

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[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 4 years ago

It's the uniforms that make you think this.

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[–] TearofLys (2656) 4 years ago

What I see is that people, including Verhoven, have a fundamental misunderstanding of what fascism really means. They conflate it with Nazism.

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[–] asom (6881) 3 years ago

They are pretty much related. And with roots in socialism (both).

https://soapboxie.com/world-politics/Differences-and-similarities-between-Fascism-and-Nazism

https://brewminate.com/fascism-and-nazism-the-similarities-and-differences-examined/

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[–] TearofLys (2656) 3 years ago

What I meant by that is there are millions going around calling people fascists meaning racists, when true fascism has nothing to do with racism, or ethnic cleansing or anything like that. Yes, at its core, the German economic model at the time was fascism, but that whole ethnic cleansing thing was an added feature of Nazism. The Italians basically exported fascism to Germany, but no one ever seems to call someone they consider a racist the next Mussolini

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[–] asom (6881) 3 years ago

Ok, and the racist part in ST is ...? The fact that they are fighting bugs which are basically illegal immigrants??

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 3 years ago

LOL!

You equate the bugs with illegal aliens(which is so prejudice and insulting) while proclaiming your political rivals as the fascist racist ones.

Classic double think.

It reminds me of the people saying "Orcs" in Tolkien's books are "racist" against black people. All while ignoring the fact that they are the ones who consider black people to share characteristics with a fantastical species/race.

Their racism is so blatant to everyone but themselves.

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[–] asom (6881) 3 years ago

Can you fucking read?

It was a question! Do you need glasses to see a question mark? There were even 2 of them ffs.

Instead of questioning my double thinking you should first learn to read ...

And I don't think I called anyone in this thread (or anywhere else for that matter) fascist ...

And tbh the bugs have interplanetary travel and are quite advanced and very intelligent ... so for whom exactly is insulting and prejudiced? For the bugs or for illegal immigrants??? (can you see the question marks????)

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 3 years ago

You are the one who brought up illegal aliens. No one else did. You made that false equivalency. Your punctuation is irrelevant.

Explain how you came to the conclusion that "bugs are basically illegal immigrants[aliens]".

It was your thought, and yours alone. Stop trying to pretend like it wasn't.

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[–] asom (6881) 3 years ago

What else could be about race and racism in that movie???

Did you read the context? Can you think? Do you have any kind of logic or are you just a blank state that reacts only at what is clearly shown without trying to pose questions and try to understand a bit more of what is the conversation about?

It's rhetoric, no need to answer btw, I can see your level.

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 3 years ago

What else could be about race and racism in that movie???

Again, you were the one claiming that it was about race and racism. The person you replied to said it was NOT about that.

Did you read the context? Can you think? Do you have any kind of logic or are you just a blank state that reacts only at what is clearly shown without trying to pose questions and try to understand a bit more of what is the conversation about?

Project much? LoL

It's rhetoric,

I don't think you know what rhetoric is. It is often erroneously used in a negative context, but it is the art of persuasion(and you really suck at it).

no need to answer btw,

And why is that?

I can see your level.

What level is that exactly?

I look forward to your reply.

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[–] asom (6881) 3 years ago

read
the
whole
fucking
conversation
you
idiot.

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 3 years ago

read
the
whole
fucking
conversation
you
idiot.

I have. I read every single post made here.

Explain yourself. If you cannot, than you clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are speaking out of your ass.

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[–] asom (6881) 3 years ago

ok, let me make a scheme for you:

OP: "it is such a better movie when you see the serious fascist undertones."

The reply I replied to: "what fascism really means. They conflate it with Nazism." and "calling people fascists meaning racists" - so implying that op included racism in his characterization.

So my question was: "what exactly depicts racism in the movie as a symbol related to our reality? because beside fighting the 'invaders' I don't see anything else related" ... and that specially if we take into consideration the theory that the Buenos Aires attack was a false flag.

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[–] brux (14807) 3 years ago

> The bugs were never a threat, right?

I don't think so, the bugs blew up Buenos Aires. Maybe wait for your 50's. ;-)

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[–] AckbarsRevenge (3800) 3 years ago

Jek Porkins is dead.

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[–] acidraindrop (3055) 3 years ago

Or they didn't.

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[–] brux (14807) 3 years ago

So, you're thinking it was fake news then?

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[–] acidraindrop (3055) 3 years ago

lol, I do.

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[–] The LA Baker (971) 3 years ago

How did the bugs attack Earth after the Mormon colony settled in their territory?

In the film, they had no real technology.

They had no means of propelling any projectile fast enough to hit earth within 100's of 1000's of years.

They had no means of communicating with their cohorts at the site of the Mormon colony to know there was an "invasion".

They had no technology that would allow the accuracy required to launch a projectile at earth, to reach earth within the next hundred thousand years, let alone the accuracy to target a city.

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[–] thingmakersback (1414) 3 years ago

It's been a while since I watched the film but didn't the bugs appear on more than one planet, in more than one solar system? I assumed, (perhaps because I read the book) that the bugs were a threat across many systems and therefore had the means to travel interstellar distances. The cross-the-galaxy asteroid seemed silly but probably just something the idiot filmmakers thought was reasonable.

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