My initial response is no. Men and women should be accountable for their own actions not that of their forefathers. Im not trivialising what my ancestors or other black peoples ancestors went through but where does it stop. However as a country places like England and America should apoligise if they are to celebrate the great things they did they should also repent for their horrific deeds. What are you guys thoughts on this black or white
share[deleted]
Get over it. It happened hundreds of years ago. Now the government is giving you welfare, so no need to weep.That's easy for you to say, because you never even close to been through what Black people can go through. Welfare isn't even close to sufficient to cover what my people have been through. Oh by the way, most welfare recipients are White.
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I really doubt that. And if that's so, they don't abuse it like "Your people."Someone told me once it's better to keep quiet, and let people think you're a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Each time you post, you show more and more that you are a fool. Yes, White people abuse welfare all the time. share
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Not as badly as blacks and Mexicans. And that's good adice for yourself. Glad Malcolm X's ghost came back and told you that so your house wasn't burned to the ground.You got to be kidding. White people abuse welfare far more than Black people. It's clear that I'm wasting my time talking to an ignorant fool like you. share
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Actually Minorda920, you are once again, DEAD WRONG.
Here are last year's official percentages of welfare recepients, by race.
With regard to AFDC the figures are:
White 38.8%
Black 39.8
Hispanic 15.7
Asian 2.4
other 3.3
If you can read, and know simple math, you will see that the black percentage is larger than any other. Can you explain that even with affirmative action, NAACP, black colleges, and equal opportunity employment that it is official that black people require the most handouts? I want to know why that is?
Oh I know... You're so oppressed *scoffs* that you can't get an education, talk properly, or work for a living. I forgot that the white people make you sell crack. We make you form gangs and rob liquor stores too, right? TRY AGAIN! You can't blame your problems on a race. You call white people oppressive and racist? Take a look in the mirror there pal.
I suppose I'm being racist now, huh? Pointing out the obvious fact that you have no criteria for 99% of the garbage you're spewing on this board makes me a white racist? You're the reason people have bad views on blacks in general. It's not your skin color... it's your attitude.
Fire Bat
IMDB has taken away my freedom of speech. Happen to anyone else?
It's you who are dead wrong. As are those statistics.
shareSo, your retort to my post is that I'm wrong and so are the official statistics? Wow. Your wit astounds me.
That's the best you could do when someone questions you? You tell them that they're wrong and you're right? You prove my point to a T. You can't defend your ridiculous OPINIONS. You can't spell apologize.
Perhaps you are one of the many black people that needs to take my advice...
Fire Bat
IMDB has taken away my freedom of speech. Happen to anyone else?
Here are the REAL facts:
Here are the statistics on welfare recipients:
Traits of families on AFDC (1)
Race
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White 38.8%
Black 37.2
Hispanic 17.8
Asian 2.8
Other 3.4
You reversed the stats by putting Blacks with the higher number. So tell me again who's wrong. I got it from this page. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfareblack.htm Read the whole thing.
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Get over it. It happened hundreds of years ago. Now the government is giving you welfare, so no need to weep.
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Wow. Your logic here is quite flawed. No single race has a premium on abusing public assistance. Almost EVEYONE on Welfare abuses the system! The simple fact is that there are more Whites abusing it because there are 4-5 times more Whites than there are Blacks in the USA. There would be more Whites on Welfare even if 50% of all Blacks in America were on Welfare! Perhaps we need to take a larger view of the world we live in:
Globally, Whites make up about 30% of the world's population (approx. 2 billion people).
What percentage of the world's resources are actually owned and controlled by Whites? About 70%!
Globally, Blacks make up about 15% of the world's population (approx. 1 billion people).
What percentage of the world's resources are actually owned and controlled by Blacks? Less than 10%!
Even the Africans themselves don’t own most of the coal, oil, diamonds, gold and copper residing on their own continent!
The die is cast. Colonialism has created inequities that may take another century correct. So who actually has the greater need to exploit the system?
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The statistics don't reflect your perspective. There simple fact is that are, have always been and always will be more Whites on Welfare! During the Great Depression it was called "Relief". There are between 45-50 million Blacks in the USA but there are more than 200 million Whites in the USA. That is the reason Blacks are referred to as a minority group.
shareThis is topic is fundamentally insane. Minorda....why don't you ask black people to apologize to themselves since black people INVENTED slavery. African people war and enslave each other to this day. Give me a break. So the descendent of a race of people which invented slavery, enslave themselves to this very day is asking ME to apologize? So defend it, go ahead. Defend black people enslaving each other.
And what advantage was afforded to Irish, Asian, Italian, German descendants? They came to this country poor. They came under religious and cultural persecution until the 1920's. But you know what? They actually worked hard and made something of themselves.
And black people should own the world huh? We took Europe from you? I do not think so. Black people were not the first to cultivate Northern Europe, Australia, Asia, ANY major island, Southern/Central and Northern America...so how do you figure?
EVERYBODY abuses welfare, which is why I absolutely hate any race of people using it. There ARE more white people on welfare (there are more white people in this country, therefore have more poor white people number wise). However, the PERCENTAGE of black people on welfare as compared to the total population of blacks as apposed to the percentage of white people on welfare, is higher for blacks. So, in a few words....who gives a sh*t? And how is it clear that "white people abuse welfare far more than blacks"? Where are these welfare abuse statistics?
Lastly, Minorda, you are the biggest bigot/supremacist on this board.
This is topic is fundamentally insane. Minorda....why don't you ask black people to apologize to themselves since black people INVENTED slavery. African people war and enslave each other to this day. Give me a break. So the descendent of a race of people which invented slavery, enslave themselves to this very day is asking ME to apologize? So defend it, go ahead. Defend black people enslaving each other.You can't compare the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade to any other form. At least with the others, there was a way out. After a certain period, they were free to own a certain amount of land. Most importantly, they weren't treated like a piece of property. My people suffer from the effects of slavery to this day.
If working hard was enough, we'd have been out of our condition centuries ago. The fact that you're insinuating that we didn't is beyond ridiculous.
And what advantage was afforded to Irish, Asian, Italian, German descendants? They came to this country poor. They came under religious and cultural persecution until the 1920's. But you know what? They actually worked hard and made something of themselves.
Again you're showing your ignorance. I never said you took Europe. I said WE GAVE YOU EUROPE. After you were made on the island of Patmos in the Agean Sea, you followed the teachings of your maker, Yacub. You made trouble among the righteous people causing division, and fighting. When it was discovered that you were the cause of the fighting, we rounded up all of you that we could find, and marched you over the Arabian desert. At the end you went into what is now called Europe. You were there on your all fours not knowing how to cook your food, or how to bury your dead. After 2,00 years of being in that state, we sent one of our prophets by the name of Musa (Moses) to civilize you. As I said, everywhere you went, we were here. Africa isn't the only place we were. We were all over the globe. The Earth belongs to the righteous.
And black people should own the world huh? We took Europe from you? I do not think so. Black people were not the first to cultivate Northern Europe, Australia, Asia, ANY major island, Southern/Central and Northern America...so how do you figure?
EVERYBODY abuses welfare, which is why I absolutely hate any race of people using it. There ARE more white people on welfare (there are more white people in this country, therefore have more poor white people number wise). However, the PERCENTAGE of black people on welfare as compared to the total population of blacks as apposed to the percentage of white people on welfare, is higher for blacks. So, in a few words....who gives a sh*t? And how is it clear that "white people abuse welfare far more than blacks"? Where are these welfare abuse statistics?Where are the stats for the reverse? Since it was said that we did it more.
Please, that's not worth the dignity of a response. share
Lastly, Minorda, you are the biggest bigot/supremacist on this board.
I am, once again, stunned by the idiocy of this message board. You are bringing speculation into this argument? My maker Yacub, the "evil scientist" who created white people? Are you insane? I am not a follower of Islam (thank God) and I find it rather inane and idiotic to use something so speculative as religion to bring about your point. Well, according to the Catholic religion, YOUR maker was God, and your ancestors were Adam and Eve (two white people). So, if you want to use religion as an argument, so will I. According to Catholicism and the Jewish religion, the human race can be traced back to white people. So, in effect, WE were here first.
Now do I believe that? No. You know why? Because I am not a bigoted, racist, religious fanatic who can not take the teachings and writings of thousands of years ago with a grain of salt. If you truly believe that an "evil scientist" named Yacub created the white race you are a damn fool. But maybe I should thank "Yacub", I mean my evil white race is currently enjoying prosperity, wealth and technology far beyond yours. In fact, I think I'll get down on my knees toward Mecca and thank him. So, maybe you chose the wrong side.
And I never said one race of people abuses welfare more, because I like to use something called facts and statistics to prove my points. If there are none, then I do not say it, unlike yourself who will spew any racist thought that comes to mind with no facts (and religion (Islam) is NOT a fact by the way).
And how is there a way out from African slavery? African slavery (slavery in Africa) is at the very least comparable, if not worse than what went on in this country. I do not see pictures from the cotton fields with children with their arms cut off, as opposed to the pictures you can find on any website of the diamond trade. Please, that entire continent has been on the self destructive path for hundreds of years (white intervention or not).
But go ahead and keep whining for monetary compensation and shoot me a thread when you finally see a dime from a white guy due to slavery compensation. Or better yet, when a white guy is going to give you a piece of land. Hahaha, don't hold your breathe.
I am, once again, stunned by the idiocy of this message board. You are bringing speculation into this argument? My maker Yacub, the "evil scientist" who created white people? Are you insane? I am not a follower of Islam (thank God) and I find it rather inane and idiotic to use something so speculative as religion to bring about your point. Well, according to the Catholic religion, YOUR maker was God, and your ancestors were Adam and Eve (two white people). So, if you want to use religion as an argument, so will I. According to Catholicism and the Jewish religion, the human race can be traced back to white people. So, in effect, WE were here first.That's idiocy. If Whites were the first, then there would be nothing but white people on Earth since it's a biological and genetic impossibility for 2 White people to produce Yellow, never mind Brown, or Red. You can certainly forget about Black. This is according to the father of modern genetics, Gregor Johann Mendel. By the way, the Bible never says Adam and Eve were White.
Now do I believe that? No. You know why? Because I am not a bigoted, racist, religious fanatic who can not take the teachings and writings of thousands of years ago with a grain of salt. If you truly believe that an "evil scientist" named Yacub created the white race you are a damn fool. But maybe I should thank "Yacub", I mean my evil white race is currently enjoying prosperity, wealth and technology far beyond yours. In fact, I think I'll get down on my knees toward Mecca and thank him. So, maybe you chose the wrong side.Whatever. If you want to see a damn fool, just look in the mirror. You keep saying you're not a racist, yet you are the one that tell that lie that Blacks abuse welfare more than Whites. The "evil scientist" part is your interpretation of the fact. Again, I absolutely believe it's the truth. It's immaterial if you believe it or not. I'm not trying to convice you one way or the other. By the way, White people's time to rule is up. Your current prosperity is coming to an end.
"Whatever. If you want to see a damn fool, just look in the mirror."
Ouch. Tell your five year old niece, or whoever wrote that masterpiece of literary abuse, that I concede.
Again, quote me. Find a quote of me, anywhere, saying black people abuse welfare more than white people. Stop misquoting me and do some research on who you are arguing with for a change.
And if you believe it or not, Islam (nor ANY religion) is still not a proven fact.
So, again, when white people's time is up, when the trade, financial centers, governments, etc. of virtually every first world country comes crashing down and Ghana (or somewhere to that effect) becomes the new United States.....let me know. I'm guessing that will come roughly around the time you receive that slavery compensation check and an acre of land.
And if you can't note that hint of sarcasm latent in that previous statement, let me assure you, it's there.
You know, someone said to me once that for a believer, no proof is needed. For a disbeliever, no proof is enough. To be quite frank, I really don't care what you think. I know it's the truth. As for 5 year olds, is that your age? You go on with what you believe. This dialog is a waste of time, and you're continuing to show your crap to the world.
shareI think the fundemental problem here is that individuals should not apologize. The American government along with the companies that profited from slavery and still exist today should apologize.
Also, it's not JUST about slavery. People love to gloss over the lovely jim crow era. My mother experienced that horrible time, so it's a bit closer to home than you think.
I'm a Pone Toney. I've got my dillies on the peppa tain!
Well California has a relatively large Black population but is not reflective of the country as a whole. However, California is significant because nearly 14% of all Americans live there. In 2005, the percentage of Black Californians on Welfare (of the total participants) was 20.9% while it was 22.6% for White Californians. We already agree that most EVEYONE abuses public assistance. We should also agree that poverty among Blacks is traditionally higher than among Whites in the USA.
http://www.dss.cahwnet.gov/research/res/pdf/caltrends/ethnicity/EthnicityJul05.pdf
The Welfare system itself should be overhauled but it is disturbing that many people intrinsically identify the system with Blacks. The conditions that should be more indigenous to the system are poverty and childcare (where the father neglects his financial obligation). Children born out-of-wedlock typically occurs across all racial lines and particularly among unwed teenage females of all ethnicities. The state of Washington was once a haven for people seeking public assistance because it was simply easier to obtain there. However the typical applicant in that state was not Black.
Immigration in the USA (both past and present) was and is a voluntary exercise that usually results in a higher standard of living (provided the opportunities to apply oneself exist). Hard work and education usually determine the outcome. Comparing Slavery to Immigration (both legal and illegal) is like comparing a raisin to an apple. The institution of Slavery was by default the systematic lack of opportunity, education (it was illegal to educate a slave) and it condoned legalized segregation. If Black people were intrinsically lazy, it would have been impractical to recruit them for the backbreaking labors awaiting them as slaves. The descendants of former slaves have really only had the last 40 years to try and attempt the same self-help, bootstrap pulling maneuver that works so well for immigrants who are by definition, choosing relocation (rather than being forced to do so).
Black people were recruited for slavery due to their physical strength, not because of their lack of laziness or whatever you were implying.
And slavery was worse than immigration, this is true. However, if you look at the living conditions afforded to immigrants say, oh, in the Five Points in New York City at the time you would have second thoughts.
Secondly, although things such as education were allowed to immigrants does not mean they were in use. Mostly all immigrants from Asia, Italy and Ireland were poor and therefore were basically forced into having their kids work in factories instead of going to school, seeing as child labor was legal at the time. Oh, and less I forget, how about the conditions for Asians during the 1900's, seeing as Asians were basically forced to build our trans-continental railroads at meager to no pay. And the "camps" they were put in during World War II.
So, in essence, you say that immigrants had choices (which they did in theory) but in fact they did not. Their monetary situations did not allow them the opportunity to take advantage of such things as school. And if you think black people were the only ones receiving racism at the time you are sadly mistaken.
This is basically why I am tired about the whining of black people. I understand that it has been a tough journey, really I do. But EVERY group of people, Asian to Southern European to American Indian (far worse than slavery if you ask me) have had difficulties, that is life. Get over it. This entire country was built on taking advantage of cheap slave and immigrant labor, but again, get over it. Work hard and stop complaining like every other group aforementioned above.
And I have been saying it forever, but I'll do it again. I understand the welfare statistics. I believe mostly everyone abuses welfare (regardless of race) and there ARE more white people on welfare (there are more white people living in this country after all) HOWEVER, the PERCENTAGE of blacks within the black population on welfare is higher. So I agree on your point.
Black people were recruited for slavery due to their physical strength, not because of their lack of laziness or whatever you were implying.Again, you're showing your true heart. Our people are NOT lazy. Again, any talk with you is a waste of time.
Well jokerthewildone, the “lazy” thing was simply intended to refute the stereotype that laziness is the reason African Americans have not done as well as others.
As in any dysfunctional family, the past and the present are indelibly linked. There’s no getting around that though personally, I assert that #2 has to try harder by default. What might be perceived as whining can also be a need for validation. Historical amnesia just leaves a bad taste in one’s mouth. There are people today who want to pretend that the Jews fabricated the Holocaust. In truth no one is served by sugarcoating history. We should remember (not dwell on) the past or we may be forced to relive it.
But having said all that, all it really comes down to is this:
Would you rather have been an immigrant or a slave in 1860 (mass immigration timeline aside) and can you concede that your answer might still impact your descendants 150 years later?
"We should remember (not dwell on) the past..."
Thank you. Remember slavery all you want, I'm not saying forget it. I am, however, saying that this constant barrage (yes, I said barrage) of certain black people (i.e. minorada, independent, Al Sharpton, etc.) is, of no doubt, "dwelling" on the past. There are very few white people in this country who are saying slavery never existed, nor are they advocating that blacks need to forget it completely. They (we) are simply tired of this incessant arguing for compensation due to slavery, such as money or land. They (we) are tired of listening to all the excuses with how it is still the white man's fault. Believe me, I may only be 21 years old, but it gets rather tiring of hearing the same boring black rhetoric for the past forty years. So, remember slavery all you want, I just don't care/want to hear it anymore.
Would you rather have been an Asian working on the trans-continental railroad during the 1900's or a black man living in the North? Of course I would rather be an immigrant during the years when slavery existed, I said slavery was worse in my previous post. I am saying that mostly every race/group of people in this country had to pull themselves up from the bootstraps. I contend, until I die, that Native Americans had it worse than slaves. And yet, do you hear any American Indian protest groups? Is there an American Indian version of Al Sharpton? No. Do you hear the Jewish population asking Germans for monetary compensation for the Holocaust? Because I will tell you right now that I would rather have been a slave in this country under the most brutal of plantation owners deep in Mississippi before I was a Jew in Europe amidst the Holocaust. They remember, but they do not revolve their life around it. In summation, I believe blacks should stop being so bitter. Look to the Native Americans and Jewish populations as inspiration as opposed to black racist lowlife scum like Al Sharpton.
My God jokerthewildone! You are only 21 years old? Unless you watch a lot of old news footage, you have not really been alive long enough to have heard the lion’s share of the complaints!
The son of Spartacus will never view the empire the same way a Roman citizen would. John Gotti may have paid for his crimes and died in prison but his children and grandchildren will want for nothing. Will his children then waste time trying to return all the ill-gotten gains to its rightful owners?
Dysfunction has a tendency to propagate rather than dissipate. The child-molester was a molested child. The wife-beater learned it from his father. What you are tired of hearing people complain about is simply the fallout from the past. We can’t ask someone to stop feeling their pain until they have healed. Generations of abuse will simply take time to mend but people will generally change when the circumstances of their lives change enough.
If my share of the pie were larger than yours I can promise you that I would diligently insist you get over it too.
Very poetic.
But should I have been born black, my stance would remain the same. I would still contend that black people should look only to themselves and not rely on monetary compensation from white people. I would have the foresight and historical knowledge to know that there were far worse things to happen to races/groups of people than slavery in this country. So, you may change your stance should you be in my position, but I believe mine would stay the same. And the son of Spartacus would not view Rome in the same light because he would have let emotion get in the way of reason. And should black people realize that, they too would come to realize this whining has gone on far to long.
Also, my age is primarily the reason for my stance. Affirmative action and the few white people who believe in slavery compensation have a sense that they are tied into the troubles of black people since they lived in a time when black people could not vote or attend the same institutions. My generation, believe me, will not be so kind and understanding to the supposed plight of black people in this country once we arrive in positions of political power. You have to understand that we have lived in a time when black people are afforded all the same rights throughout the entirety of our upbringing. Most of my generation (myself included), in all honesty, has no remorse because we had nothing to do with your situation. So, in all honesty, this current office and generation of white men and women (50 years old and on) will be the most sympathetic one you will encounter seeing as they let emotion (their sense of fault for you) get in the way. My generation does not have that emotional tie. So, all I can say is that should people like Al Sharpton, that black professor that stated all white people need to be "exterminated" (yes, no punishment came about him saying this) and Farakhan (however you spell it) continue their preachings, you will see a backlash like no other amongst my generation.
So, all I can say is that should people like Al Sharpton, that black professor that stated all white people need to be "exterminated" (yes, no punishment came about him saying this) and Farakhan (however you spell it) continue their preachings, you will see a backlash like no other amongst my generation.What Black profesor said White people should be exterminated? It's obvious that you're going by rumor since you don't even know his name. Neither did Rev. Sharpton or Min. Farrakhan. share
lifall said "...Historical amnesia just leaves a bad taste in one’s mouth..."
Amen.
Im the Alpha and the Omoxus. The Omoxus and the Omega
reperations would make sense if just for the long term economical factors that improved schooling standard of living would have on black people. It wouled be impratical to give every black person money but it should be invested in the black community
shareThis is a general reply. Do you guys realise the futility of this discussion? All it has led to is a racial polarisation of the thread and A LOT of racist innuendo.This may well be the problem with the world, this racial generalisation. It is the root of racism as well as ignorance. i mean how is not stupid to think that you can pack all white people under the same umbrella so as to ask them for "reparations"? And how even more silly to think that given enough compensatory payment from whites, things will change for "black people". Is it so hard to see that every man is only an INDIVIDUAL, he is not an entire RACE. For how long has racism been condemned, but have all racists changed because of that? And for how long have attempts been made to compensate blacks, have all blacks achieved their individual potential since? The answer to both is NO. Because some people are just messed up, *beep* up in the head, both white and black and everything in between. Thinking you can change these issues in the world and dividing it into racial camps will only make you a catalyst in the very *beep* up nature of the world which you desire to change. What I am seeing in my head is much too extensive to put into words, so I hope this justifies the point I am trying to put across. Just pause for a second and realllllyyyyy realise that in the end, we are all just human beings who found ourselves here, like dogs, or ants or pigs. I dont see them attacking each other randomly just because they are of different breeds. We need to get over ourselves basically.
shareI think it would be really ignorant to make white people apologize for slavery. I am white and none of my forefathers owned slaves. Many white people living in America had ancestors that never owned a slave, so then what would be the purpose of this? Making me apologize for something that I, let alone my ancestors, didn't do? Please...
I am all for equal treatment, but I don't think that it would be right to make me apologize for something that other Americans did over 200 years ago. I don't see a reason for you to be so upset. I can understand how it would feel to have ancestors who were slaves to rich white southern men, but after the civil rights movement, blacks were given just as much rights as a white man. That should be enough.
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Actually I hear Jews complain about the Holocaust all the time (and I can’t say that I blame them).
You probably have not studied much African history. Ever heard of Timbuktu (an African University that existed before Columbus rediscovered America)? Africans were/are very diverse and most did not live in huts and wear a piece of leather around their waist. They built pyramids, mined gold and copper, sculptuted, were agrarian, herded sheep and cattle, practiced metallurgy and even performed brain surgery. Their primary religion was Islam (which is only 1,400 years old). The turning point in African history was the conquests that began with Alexander the Great (2,300 years ago). That is what essentially began the decline in African civilization. The great tragedy is that most of the resources found on African soil now belongs to Non-Africans.
Those who have studied history know that slavery has always made empires rich.
Question:
Would America have become such a wealthy nation without slavery?
White police don't treat everyone equally. But can you blame them? So you can chalk up the overwhelming amount of blacks in jail in this country solely on racism? No. Get real. Police treat black/hispanic people with more of a threat because that is their track record.
Lastly, the man who reached into his pocket and was shot. Anyone who is dumb enough to reach into their pocket when police are around on alert deserves to get shot. Having said that...the number of times he was shot was way too excessive. So take it how you want it.
But Timbuktu was founded by Berbers in the 10th century C.E., which are of North African descent, and when I say North African I mean of Arab descent, out of present day Lybia, Tunisia, Morocco and Egypt. Even the word Timbuktu is of Berber/Tuareg origin. Timbuktu didn't reach it's peak until the 14th or 15th century in the Songhai Empire. Alexander the Great didn't move much past Egypt before he died in 323 B.C. What most people probably don't realize is that from 900-1900 some 16 million slaves were exported from Africa to the Red Sea region and the Indian Ocean. To contrast this, The United States at the time of the Civil War had some four million African slaves.
Again, to contrast popular belief, Americans didn't just haul their ships onto shore and throw nets at people and drag them on board. The slave trade at that time in Africa was more than common-place. Anytime one State or Kingdom would overthrow another, the losers of that struggle would be forced into servitude for the victor, this method of inducing slavery on your enemy had been practiced on every continent by almost every culture since pre-history in some way, shape or form. When Europeans conquered South America they tried to force the native peoples to grow their crops, but they didn't have the knowledge to farm such crops and they didn't have resistance to European microbes. This is why Europeans bought slaves from the winning factions in Africa at the time, they had the knowledge to farm, and they were resistant to European viruses and such things. After they had these slaves in the Caribbean they started using them in North America and eventually on plantations in the south at the time of the Civil War. So really, The ruling class in Africa (which would be the people who won those battles some 600 years ago) put them into slavery, most of them, and then sold them to the United States. In the United States they lived as slaves for 200-370 some years. I do think the United States would be as wealthy as it is, because it had an abundance of untapped resources, The proof of this is what happened after slavery, when we didn't have slaves, we still had industry. I think that in any permutation this country would have had success by the time of the industrial revolution because of the mass immigration from Europe after our independence and the fact that the soil was rich for those crops whether they are worked by slaves or by hired workers is just a matter of time in terms of growth.
Now what freed them from this was a movement to stop slavery, in the end it was white Americans who had to realize just how !@#$ed up things had gotten. Perhaps that wasn't the overall reason for the Civil War, there were other issues. It still must have been those white male Americans who would have had to put their names on those papers to make it illegal to own a slave in the United States. I have absolutely no blood from that time period here, my whole family tree moved here around 1897, there are so many people who have nothing to do with it, think about how many immigrants came from other countries at or around the turn of the century. Why would I apologize for slavery? The whole world has been using it for tens of millennia, it's still used today in many countries behind closed doors.
Who takes the blame for slavery in the United States? Is that the game we want to play today? My answer is human indifference, in Africa they sold their enemies, Europeans didn't care how they made their money, it's been done in almost every configuration on the planet. Can words really right that wrong?
Well I merely suggest that what began with Alexander was amplified and expanded upon by the Roman Empire. Northern Africa was mulatto-sized over time. As we look further south we find countries like South Africa (former Zulu terrain) and so forth. We can see clearly that many southern countries in Africa were also colonized by outsiders. As I have said before, few of the resources (gold, diamonds, copper, petroleum, rubber, etc.) found on African soil are controlled by the indigenous Africans. Even today, how many of the African countries such as the struggling Liberia are actually independently sovereign?
It is of course true that not all slaves were taken by force. It occurs to me however, that an ethical person would not buy slaves at all (except to set them free)!! The person who buys African slaves is not exempt simply because he was sold the slaves by a Black Man. I believe the Amistad incident was an example of slaves taken by violence. Alex Haley’s account also describes slaves taken by force. The history of slavery goes back almost 4,000 years and violence has always played a part in the subjugation of human beings.
Now agriculture definitely thrived in the New World! So much in fact that the 13 Colonies fought a Revolutionary War to make themselves independent of Great Britain. After all, the colonists were the ones who were working the land and taking all the risks, right? Slavery later made the agrarian based Southern States so wealthy (once cotton became king) that they considered complete secession from the American Union, itself knowing less than 85 years sovereignty. I am only suggesting that without the agricultural success, the Industrial Revolution (at least in America) might have been postponed for a while.
There is no denying that Abraham Lincoln was indeed a great man and he signed the Emancipation Proclamation. I maintain however, the goal he sought in waging the Civil War was primarily to prevent secession. Emancipation was an afterthought for Lincoln as evidenced by this Lincoln-Douglas Presidential debate excerpt.
Lincoln:
“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.”
Lincoln later altered his position by the influence of men like Frederick Douglass. To his credit, Lincoln paid the supreme penalty for doing what was right. Would you or I have had the courage to do the same?
karllindelof, you're not only racist but also extremly ignorant and uneducated. We had towns, civilizations ,queens and kings while your ancestors were eating the ground. Ever heard about Zimbabwe ,Timbuktu or Egypt?
shareFor the last time, Egypt is not a black civilization. It may be in Africa, but the Egyptian people are not Black. Egyptians are in the same race category as people from Syria, Iran, etc.
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The people who find it "cool" to be from the ghetto are the ones who don't live in the ghetto, and have no idea of what it's like to grow up in an environment like that.
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super_novalegend, You are the smartest person here.
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Dummy-House...that's not saying how many whites are ACTUALLY on welfare.
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...and your stupid post doesn't confirm how many Blacks are ACTUALLY on welfare either. Oh, and white people DO abuse welfare more than Blacks. Quit while you're behind. You've already gotten dumber by the post.
- Delta-House on Fri Jun 1 2007 18:07:22
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Get over it. It happened hundreds of years ago. Now the government is giving you welfare, so no need to weep.
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first of all as a DSHS worker i have the opportunity to serve the many people on public assistance and for your imformation the actual and factual statistics are as 57% of whites are on welfare to the 29% of blacks on welfare. this is current as of 2004. so before you open your mouth and make a total fool of yourself get the facts and get them right. stop living the life of speculated lies that so many whites hide behind. get it right.
I don't feel that any black person should say that any white person owes them something. I believe that no person should be allowed to act better than someone else. People that think they should get special treatment are wrong, even in this case. What makes anyone better than anyone else? Especially when it comes to this topic! I mean all human beings don't have any right to act better than another. People need to stop blaming others and start taking responsibility for their own actions! Its not okay to treat blacks better than whites because of slavery. I was taught that no person's suffering was any more drastic or difficult or anyone else's.
"My initial response is no. Men and women should be accountable for their own actions not that of their forefathers. Im not trivialising what my ancestors or other black peoples ancestors went through but where does it stop. However as a country places like England and America should apoligise if they are to celebrate the great things they did they should also repent for their horrific deeds. What are you guys thoughts on this black or white"
It depends in which context the apology should be given. Is it for displacing several thousand ancestors of residents who didnt get 40 acres and a mule?
Is it for slavery as psychological-scarring generations, and decades of Jim Crow laws designed to disenfranchise thousands of generations of ancestors?
men and women should be accountable for their own moral and immoral action.
Is slavery moral? Is poverty which was a byproduct of that system immoral?
"I was brought up in a country that relished fear-based religion, corrupt government and an entire white population living on stolen property that they murdered for and that is passed on from generation to generation."
-Sean Penn
Its disgusting this discussion had reached a certain magnitude of misunderstanding and corrupted logic. Why the hell would I apologize for something I personally wasn't involved in? I couldn't give less than a sht if my ancestors bombed helpless civilians because it was taken place in an era I couldn't even experience on my own. Would their killing result in some sort of new tragedy or hatred? No. But hey, rational thought might be forbidden here.
If I'm portrayed as a racist for not believing in this racial arrogance (As a general whole, since generalizing is so cool to do these days (?)) I still won't care; theres nothing anyone can do about that. "Black people" won't ever receive funding or a national apology because last I checked, most of the people asking for such ignorant claims were the young (Never been enslaved, how do you expect returns for something like this? Your dead ancestors might appreciate it? If i had Arab ancestors who were tortured to death, should I try to reap benefits by asking the murderer's great-great-grandaughter?). Has slavery made an impact on the black community today? Yes, but slavery was diminished and "black peoples" lives soon regulated. Later on (In modern day), there is no real tangible difference between their abilities to live as they wish comparing to any other race (In the US, mind you), and have received help on the way.
"White People" (Awesome generalization) have nothing to tell the black community other than "Hey, You have a different skin tone!" One day, you'll wake up and realize color doesn't matter, and your only creating the same simple observations you started to make from infancy. So would you still believe its safe to say "white people" shouldn't apologize?
Regardless, feel free to act like civilized beings rather than take account any negative historical period you could use to plot revenge. And to those who believe in the latter, I won't be helping you reach the end of the tunnel, so you'll have to navigate on your own.
I think it's a good argument to say that if we give credit to our forefathers for positive achievements, then we should own up to those things that are negative. Slave owners may now be all dead, but many people are still alive who enacted racial segregation and hate crimes, like the white men who butchered Emit Til and the posey that assassinated three civil rights activists. Have they apologized? They should.
Interesting question.
And those people should apologize, as should this racist scumbag... http://youtube.com/watch?v=IN5StQAr7n0 (old clip of a black "professor" who advocates "exterminating" white people.)
It's a two way street. How about that black stripper from Duke, shouldn't she apologize for lying and ruining the lives of three white college kids?
I haven't heard Farrakhan apologize for anti-jewish remarks either.
Plus there was this black guy in line at the bank that I accidentally collided shoulders with...he didn't say he was sorry. See....a two way street.
slavery has nothing to do with me as a person, so I won't apologise...
shareIt is interesting to see how polarized the white and black responses are. The black responses are fairly predictable. Many of the white responses are somewhat more telling. I think it was about 5 years ago that Japanese Americans were formally apologized to for their internment during WW2. They were also monetarily compensated. It is important to remember that some Germans and Italians were also interned but it was Japan that felt the sting of the Atomic Bomb.
Paradoxically, a son WILL inherit both the sins and the blessings of his father. Many people seem unable to embrace this concept. I have sister who says she is “not accountable for what she said and did under the influence of cocaine”. Who then is responsible? Though clean and sober now, she still retains much of the attitude that I would call selfish and irresponsible (which was a major contributor to her addiction). We can turn away from the past but sooner or later, we have to embrace and confront it. That is the only real cure to past addictions. Addiction and dysfunction are family traditions and seldom flee without being compelled to do so.
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No and why is it only white people can be racist?
share@ Cassius-X
Your response is very interesting and not very kind. Slow down. You assumed my sister was white. She's black. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Read my post one more time and I'd like you to answer this question:
Am I for or against an apology?
becaus thats the truth dammit
what kind of a question is that white=racist=honky=whitebread=cracka=blackmankillinghoe=hitler=nazi=a-hole=muthaphuka
white mens is always judging and bringin the black man down 4 what 4 nothing thats what
and life4all didnt know u was black but yall shouldnt have been actin all white on this muthaphuka dont be tellin me that u aint gettin down with the white females shiet boy.
and on the sista quote I apologize.
Crack is a hellava drug aint it.
@ Cassius-X
Illicit narcotics are the plague of our people. Of all people we can least afford to indulge in drug abuse. We began life with little substance and have nothing fall back on when we fall.
I am black. I date black women. I have also dated women of other races as well (not so much unlike many of my brothers, from various backgrounds). I don’t really have a preference. My mother was an English Teacher and I am college educated. I have studied hard to augment my mind. I carried home 2-4 books every school day and even did the math. I work hard and have tried to help many other blacks (and even whites) find a place for themselves in the larger, more economically viable mainstream society (even the global village) we all live in. I have read many books and I am constantly learning new things. What I have done, others can do. Don't you want there to be more people in the world like me?
Cassius, the world is so much larger than anyone has ever realized. Science and technology are making that world even larger and we must be part of that. We must embrace the future ever mindful of God as well. We owe that to our children and to ourselves.
Racism aside, I think the largest single problem our people face is the lack of education and I am trying to change that. Hosea 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge (kjv). Life is as much about stimulating the mind as it is about indulging our senses. The greatest enemy anyone will ever face is reflected back whenever we look in the mirror. If we focus our efforts on dealing with educating our minds, racism will be a breeze.
I guess what I wrote was somewhat ambiguous. The gist of it is that an apology from whites would be a good thing because it would force them to realize that the society their ancestors built still gives them the advantage. They tend to forget that part when they say, “I was not alive then and am blameless”. The present stand on Affirmative Action illustrates that well enough. The past and the present are indelibly linked but expecting a man to return what his father has stolen is unrealistic so we are much better off building on the gains made by our own ancestors. The best place to start is by using education to give ourselves what we will be otherwise unable to obtain.
should white people apologise for slavery?
I refuse to apologize for something that has nothing to do with me. My parents emigrated here from Brazil thirty years ago, so I'll be damned if some black guy asks me to apologize for what happened to people he may or may not have even been related to over a hundred and thirty years ago. I'm mixed, myself (many people in Brazil are, and the glaring majority don't care about it), and if anyone tries to lecture me on the horrors of slavery, think of this . . . Africans back in the early days of Imperialism were the ones who sold their "brothers" into slavery for the whites in the colonies of the New World. If these "disenfranchised" extremist bigots really insist upon putting everything on such a basic level as degrading everyone to the color of their skin, they have no one to blame but themselves, considering wealthy blacks in Africa were the ones who sold slaves across the ocean. So please, the next time that you people cry "Racism Rat Bastard!" at white people, think for a second, your affirmative action-oriented mindsets could use a rude awakening.
Just to clarify, whenever I refer to "you people," I'm not talking about the entire black race. When I say "you people," I'm talking to extremists who actually think anyone in America would be willing to apologize for slavery, something that about only 1% of the population in 1865 took part in (rich white southern landowners, hardly any sort of high statistic, considering America had about 30+ million people back then including slaves, and today has over ten times that).
If everyone's equal, why isn't it wrong for people like Al Sharpton to get up on television and bash the latest white police officer who does his job bringing a criminal who happened to be black to justice? If everyone's equal, why is it that a black man who worked less hard as the white guy next to him while taking the SAT got accepted to college over the white guy? You've got to realize, this kind of society does not encourage people to work harder--quite the contrary! It encourages the subsequent generations of African Americans that they don't need to work as hard as everyone else to get up in life.
If you're basically saying that another "race" is entirely responsible for your personal hardships as a human being, remember that if you feel entitled to anything from that race after over a hundred and thirty years of freedom and over forty years after a little thing called the American Civil Rights movement, your first course of action should be to get a job, then to apologize for being a racist hypocrite against people who have done nothing to you.
If anyone who isn't prejudiced feels insulted right now, don't be, you're not a racist . . . right?
Well ironsamurai666, there's really only one question to ask:
Does the standard of living for blacks in America now equal that of whites?
regardless of whether or not it is, I don't believe that good, law-abiding, unprejudiced whites should have to answer for it. The bottom-line is that it's not their fault. The vast majority of people you should blame have been dead for over a century.
(Hypothetically) If you're a black man and you want change in the system, I suggest you get educated and get a respectable job to set an example. I read this somewhere on these boards (I'm not sure if it was this one or another, so I'm sorry if it seems vague), but a comedian once said that "A black seems to get more respect coming out of jail than coming out of college." And when you think about it, it makes sense. We see rappers all the time who were criminals and who use their criminal careers to their advantage, evoking this "tough guy" image that the public seems to be in love with. When kids think it's cool to sell/do drugs, get shot X-amount of times, or go to jail, I have serious doubts as far as whether or not half the black kids out there really have any positive role models.
Is the standard of living equal on the whole? I would say no, probably not. However, if we look at blacks strictly as a group, not a race, just a group of people, look at this. Queens County, New York has a black population that has a higher household income than that of White Americans. What does this tell us? It says that blacks do have the potential to succeed. If nothing else, Queens should be something to jump for joy over because (at least economically) it shows that it's not impossible for the black standard of living to be higher than that of whites.
It may be because I'm an idealist, but I do believe that if half the poverty-stricken out there, including whites AND blacks, got off their asses and did something, anything, productive, any sort of racial prejudice would be decreased. We are the products of how we live our lives, not the color of our skin. I say that if your standard of living is bad, make it better on your own, don't use your twisted sense of injustice to do it for you, because race is many times a grossly overused excuse for laziness. And you can take that to the bank.
I totally agree in regards to education, strategy, self-improvement and perseverance. There seems however to be at times a little historical amnesia and I think we need a quick review to align our perception.
Why is living in America so good? Why does everyone still want to come to America? Two reasons:
1) Because the US Constitution makes the freedom of the individual more important than the autonomy of the state.
2) Because the “streets are paved with gold” (or at least perceived to be) and financial opportunity abounds.
We had all better remember that financial opportunity/autonomy is what really makes the good life here possible. The pre-Industrial Revolution prosperity was largely due to agriculture. This was mainly propagated by the very practical use of forced-labor. Indentured servitude quickly evolved to become slavery. The prosperity was in fact so great that the southern states would rather have seceded from the Union than being forced to change their policies regarding slavery (and a few other things). Besides, why should they change? Much like Rome, slavery had become an integral part of their economy. Secession then became the primary theme of the Civil War. Lincoln’s, chief objective was to preserve the Union and emancipation was an after-thought he came to embrace later in the War. I am sorry but purchasing slaves from a Black Man does not excuse the one who buys them!! The contemporary (post-Renaissance) slave trade lasted over 200 years and it is estimated that over 30 million Africans were taken during those years to America, Europe and European colonial possessions. Millions of Africans died before they ever reached a foreign shore!
If America had not become so prosperous a nation, your descendants might never have migrated here! Your immigrant descendants (and now you, yourself) were/are much more inclined to enjoy the freedom, opportunity and prosperity that was generated before they arrived while the descendants of those who performed much of the labor that made it possible, largely enjoyed subjugation, segregation, incarceration, poverty and exclusion from mainstream activities. Even the 14th Amendment had to be reinforced by a Voting Rights act in the 1960s (which would have been unnecessary if the execution of law really functioned as intended). If you are even remotely familiar with “Brown vs. the Board of Education” (1954) here’s an update you may find insightful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Clark_(psychologist). Self-loathing is an impediment to self-elevation.
In America, 65-70% of the population is white. While it is true that whites are a global minority (about 30% of the global population), they control nearly 70% of the world’s resources! Blacks only account for about 15% (approximately the same % as in the USA) of the global population but control only about 10% of the global resources. Even in Africa, the indigenous Africans do not control the diamonds, gold, copper, oil, etc., found on their own soil. Africa has always been a magnet for resource exploitation. Were it not for outside interference, the Black Man would want for nothing! The decline of African civilization actually began about 2,300 years ago when Alexander the Great conquered the “known” world.
In the 1980s, crack cocaine somehow came to flood the inner cities, which not only retarded progress there, but catalyzed a national epidemic to which the inept official response from on-high was, “just say no”.
Now if you don’t think any of this affects the progress of black people today, please reconsider by way of a less myopic view. It is also critical to remember that you are somewhat on the outside looking in and as such are less inclined to truly have your finger on the pulse of the matter. You need not apologize for slavery but please remember why you live here and choose to stay here (and who it was and is still helping to pay for the privilege you enjoy)!
Life4all...
You made good points, some of which I agree.
But can I just ask one question? Where/when is the line drawn for apology/compensation? 200 years? 300 years? 1000 years? It seems to me that black people in this country are the only ones to be hanging up on the slavery issue, basically using it as a crutch. I, in all honesty, do not see Indians/Pakistanis making the same claims to the British, who took over their land and basically enslaved them until the 1950's. I do not hear the Koreans asking the French for compensation. Nor do I even see African nations themselves complaining to the British, Dutch, French, Germans and Italians. My point is, they have long since understood that the past is just that, past.
But, I can certainly understand your position, especially when every black leader seems to push for apology/compensation (a reason why I believe the black community needs better leaders). But let me ask, would Martin Luther King Jr. be so hung up on the compensation issue? Or would he say to remember it, but to go on living and set an example by showing you can achieve without help. I do not mean this in any disrespect, but the black community has (not in terms of social progression mind you) taken a step back from the sixties.
Lastly, if black people can track lineage back to slave owners, then by all means, try and get an apology or compensation. But, I, along with your argument friend ironsamurai, are first generation Americans. Just because slavery might have led to the progression that made this country seem suitable to immigrate to in the 1960's, does not mean they have benefited from it.
Life4all,
You make some very good points, and I can really see what you mean when you say that slavery was an integral part of White Southern society before the Civil War (if I recall correctly, a 2 billion dollar industry back then, which translates to a helluva lot more today), but again, just to reinforce what Jokerthewildone said, when does it stop? When is this racial profiling against white going to come to an end? I have numerous friends who are worrying their heads off about college, getting jobs later on, and how affirmative action may play into that. That is just one example.
I think the sad fact is that we really can't judge how many of these reparations are necessary, particularly because the atrocities which you described were so widespread. I don't think that we should forget about them, but I do think that people should stop using them, as Jokerthewildone said, "a crutch." The problem is that because of this, and a little thing called political correctness, most people are willing to just roll over, thinking it's the noble thing to do, when really all they're doing is feeding the fire of racial division and the sentiment of many black people that they're fairly entitled to something. Life is not supposed to be fair, and it never was; people who don't realize this need to shape up quick.
Again, I'm borrowing largely from Jokerthewildone's comment when he says that they haven't realized the past is the past, and it was unfair.
Thank you all for your intelligent replies; you don't see enough of it here.
Who do you consider superior?
shareNo one is superior to anyone else. I was responding to a poster who felt that slavery should be reinstated. He/she could not even spell the word “reinstated” correctly. The post has been deleted but it occurred to me that anyone desiring to be a member of the “master race” should at least know how to spell.
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