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nswucqbseal, you rock. I've been following your posts recently and its good to know there are some intelligent people on this website. You are a SEAL are you not? Just wanna let you know I have enormous respect for you and your buddies. Thanks for keeping our country safe.
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Well actually Russian special forces along with Russian athletes are all juiced up on steroids. Thats how the Russians win so much at the olympics, or at least used to before they started banning such stuff.
dunnknow..in a hand to hand situation spetsnaz would probably win they get trained to deliver 300 lethal blows in under a minute, Seal would win overall though because as stated russians have been downgraded and SEALS probably better equipped due to the current conflicts around the globe involving america
CQD...SEALs would win both battles...the GROM would own the Spetsnaz
share*beep* you american, *beep* you, my dad was in the Spetznaz, and they are not on steroids, it's just you ignorant amarican ass that doesnt know *beep* Speznaz is a very strong team, that will take out the seals any time, anywear.
shareI'm an American and I have absolutely nothing against the Spetsnaz, the Russian Army, or Russia period. I respect all military special forces because they are not all that different from each other. They are all extremely hard to get into, only a small percent actually get in, and the job itself is extremely dangerous... yet people sign up for them anyway and I respect those individuals, from SEALs, to S.A.S., and even Spetsnaz.
I'm not saying SEALs could win over Spetsnaz, but it won't work the other way around. My prediction, if a SEAL team and a Spetsnaz team were to fight against each other, I'd guess that there would only be one survivor and it could be either one. I'm not a SEAL. But even if I was, I wouldn't dare to go up against a Spetsnaz team.
Like I said, I respect all Special Forces in the world. In fact, I've been writing a series of stories and one of the main protagonists is a former Spetsnaz. Your dad is a Spetsnaz, huh? I have nothing against him, or the unit he joined, and I respect everything he went through to become one and knowing the dangers once you're in. I guess that's all I can say.
I hate all these "American forces vs. another countries forces, who would win" topics. They're stupid. Just respect all of them for their hard work. If I were to meet a Spetsnaz soldier someday, I'd most likely shake his hand and congratulate him for the hard work he put into protecting his country.
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So I take it you respect Spetznaz and other special forces? I just want to be clear on that point.
share>>dunnknow..in a hand to hand situation spetsnaz would probably win they get trained to deliver 300 lethal blows in under a minute
Thats highly unlikely, and besides even if a Spetznaz could deliver 300 lethal blows in under a minute, to do so would be redundant and unnecessary. All you need to do is to be able to deliver one lethal blow and that would be that. To waste your time trying to work on being able to deliver 300 lethal blows would be pointless when you could instead work on being able to deliver just one lethal blow and make it unstoppable. That way if somebody tried using their 300 lethal blows, you could block them all since they would all be ineffective since the person's training was "spread too thin" and land your one lethal blow and finish them. A good example of that would be the martial art of Muai Thai. In Muai Thai they focus mostly on the low roundkick to the legs. They make that kick unstoppable. Therefore theyre able to triumph over a martial artist with gazillion techniques because they have honed their one technique so much. So in an unarmed fight, SEALS would beat Spetznaz. After all, from what I've learned, SEALS train at fighting where theyre kicking full contact wearing those hard heavy combat boots. And the Russians are known for being wastefully redundant. A good example of that would be during the Cold War when they had enough bombs to blow up the world gazillion times over, when all you need is enough to blow it up once.
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Now I'm not here to step on toes.
Having been in a Special boat unit doesnt make me Seal but I do have first hand knowledge of Special Operations forces in the US as well as some foriegn ones. Everything thats been said pretty much I agree with as far as the background info.
My personal opinion in the matter is that Spetznaz are more comparible to a Ranger unit, in weapons, organization and mission and Tactics. They are airborne capable and are mainly used in direct action, large scale(battalion sized) assaults. This is in Soviet era of course. They have degraded severly since the fall of the USSR. I doubt in their current form that they could pose a threat to anything but a force of conscripts. I think the misconception of the Soviet Spetznaz fame, is what gets it compared to more dedicated western special forces units.
Not to try to conflict with other posters in the know, I will break it down for the people who are curious, who may not know what direct action and other military terms are.
US Special Operations Command is the conglomerate of all the services Navy, Army, Air Force. Notice I didnt say Marine Corps, though they do have personnel in SOCOM, the Marines retain their Special Operations capacity, in their Marine Expeditionary Units, and Marine Expeditionary Forces. The Navy side of things consists primarily of Navy Seal Teams, Seal Delivery Vehicle teams and Special Boat Units. The Army side is composed of Army Special forces Groups, the Special Operations Aviation Regiment. The Air force component includes Combat Search and rescue elements, Combat Support and transport Aviation and Close Air support(in the form of AC130 gunships). Now each of these have their own specialties and Areas of responsibilties. Some Seal teams and Special forces groups, specialize in different areas of the world, though they are definetley not limited to them, especially with undermanning and mission support needed around the world. In some cases they speak the languages, associated with their AOR's, especially in the case of the Army Special Forces Groups. Though SOCOM is in command of all the forces they do have ties to thier parent services. So all special operations forces can work as part of SOCOM or for their arent services. For example most of the time a SEAL will be part of the NSWG at home, to train and work-up, once they Feploy they become a part of SOCOM and are ready for tasking. Lots of times you will see intermixing of special operations forces. Examples of this would be in Iraq, there is a Rapid response team made up of Seal Team 2 and the 75th Ranger Regiment. Another would be any of the various Task Forces like TF 7 and TF 21, they are made up of Seals, Army SF, AirForce Combat Forward Air Controllers, and Marines. Though you wont find much out about those guys. A classic example would be 1993 in Somalia. Most assume this was soley an Army operation, from the movie and so on. This is far from the truth. SOCOM was all around involved in TF Ranger. Navy Seal operators, As well as AF Forward air controllers participated, along with the Rangers and SFOD Delta.
Navy Seal Teams. These guys are comprised mostly of guys that came straight into the Navy, from other services, or from Officer Candadite School or Naval Academy on the officer side. There is a growing percentage of Fleet returnies, sailors coming from the fleet. Seals specialize in Small unit tactics, normally you will not see them operate in groups larger than 16 or so, though the majority of the time they operate much smaller than that in 8 man groups or even in 2's. They are air borne capable and do attend Army Airborne training. they can be Halo capable( High altitude Low opening). Main missions include beach survey and recon, coastal, riverine and harbor assault. Maritime interdiction, where they board and assault vessels at sea or in port. Underwater demolitions is another forte whether its placing an explosive charge on the hull of Noriega's yaght or a clandestine survey of mines in an enemy harbor like Basra. Certain Seal Teams retain special abilities to operate in like Desert Warfare, Jungle warfare, Cold weather warfare, etc. The Seals also have considerable capabilities in HR/AT, Hostage rescue and anit terrorist missions.
A broad view of the current state of operations, will probably be easiest. SOCCENT which is the hot topic for everyone now a days, is the Middle east, including but not limited to Iraq and Afghanistan. Seals are primarily being used for Rapid response to devoping situatons in conjunction with a mix of Ranger support and air force controllers. Prime example of this was late June early july this year, when a small recon team of Seals were cut off. A rapid response team of Seals, and AF FACs in one helo and a heavy support element of Rangers in another, were sent to rescue them. Of course they didnt make it, the helo went down to enemy fire. The Recon teams which are bieng used in Afghanistan primarily, mainly are 2 to 4 man teams, that go on deep penetration, are sniper capable and are basically sneaking around unseen looking for high value targets. In retrospect to the Seals, You have the Army Special Forces Groups in Afganistan. Their main mission is something called FID, Foriegn Internal Defense and Civil Affairs. This means not only winning hearts and minds basically living and socializing in the civilian population, but the training, of local military forces and police. Though these are their main mission, they have the cpability to conduct anything from demining assistance, to Recon, Psyops, Hostage rescue and Anti terror ops, sniper support and security assistance of foriegn polical people. Such as say the President of Afghanistan always has some Some Sf guys in his body guard unit.
So you can see this all pretty much differs from a unit like the Spetznaz. Navy and Army special Operations, far exceed any capability held by any units abroad. Based on their capabilities and vast experience gained not only in IRAQ and Afghanistan but in the past 20 years, the American Special Operations forces far outweigh any comparable units in the world. Any body interested in more info, just ask. I make it a personal goal as the rememberance of lost friends, to spread the right word around about some of the finest men who have ever lived!
To the poster that talked about 300 deadly force blows in on minute or something, like My Seal friend will agree, first why would it take 300 and Im not sure there is any man Physically capable if you think about it, to make 300 strikes especially in combat, where you are already cold, tired and hungry, would be impossible. It sounds like a definite load of steaming bullsh^& if you ask me, no offense!
Great and insightful post BM1!
Fistoffury, you obviously know very little about martial arts. You're whole one lethal blow does not hold up in real life, look at modern mixed martial arts, there are no one deminsional fighters, fighters must know Boxing/Kickboxing for standup, wrestling for ground control and Brazilian JuJitzu(sp?) for submissions, all one deminsional fighters don't last long in MMA, and would last even less in a rule-free envirionment.
shareA SEAL would rock a Spetznaz dude one-on-one, and in a squad vs. squad action. A SEAL would probably murder a British SAS man one-on-one, but not in a squad vs. squad situation. And South Korean sf guys are probably the best hand-to-hand guys.
shareThe post that is three above mine was remarkably informed. As for the one directly above, what is your basis for this? What are you basing your declarations of superiority on? South Koreans in hand-to-hand combat? Obviously this is pure speculation.
As for the 300 lethal blows in under 1 minute thing, absolute BS. To deliver 300 lethal blows in under a minute would require *MORE THAN* 5 LETHAL BLOWS PER SECOND. To deliver one fatal blow per second (60) would require near-superhuman strength, endurance and precision; to deliver two per second (120) is EXTREMELY far-fetched; to deliver MORE THAN 5 is just downright preposterous.
Yeah, it is pure speculation. You always hear so much about the hand-to-hand capability of the Spetsnaz-more than you do about the SEALS, or other groups. I'm not saying that they can deliver 300 fatal blows in a minute, but they are supposed to be extremely adept at hand-to-hand. As for the South Korean SF guys, they have long been rumored to be the best at hand-to-hand combat. American SF teams who worked with them in Vietnam were astounded by their skills, and every one of them was reputed to be a black belt in Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do. This black belt rumor served as one of the reasons that the USMC instituted it's "Semper Fu" program.
shareI can tell you from first hand experience that Spetsnaz are extremely capable hand to hand fighters - if you ever have the oppurtunity get some training here - very effective system
http://www.russianmartialart.com/
Don't quote me on this, but from what I've read of, and from what we've seen of them in Actaion (The Checnyan school and the Moscow Theatre), the Spetznatz seem to be more 'foward oriented'. "There is the goal, now lets get it done with kill anyone that gets in the way."
That is, where most special forces in counter-terrorism, it's all about 'Save the Hostage' the Russians are all bout 'Kill the hostage-takers'.
The SEALs I'm guessing would be more the sneak around, lets try not to get into combat unless we need to and do the job, then sneak back. I know that's over-simplifying it, but the difference predominantly sociitial.
Where Russians are quite happy to blow up buildings with tanks and helicoptors to kill a handful of terrorists, if the US or Britain do the same, civillians back home tend to wringe their hands and/or kick up a stink.
That is probably a fair assesment of the mindset of SEALS vs. Spetsnaz
shareThe SAS are boss but i think they are just too overated, The SBS would be the British version of the SEALs, Howabout the French/Spanish Foreign Legion?
Those Spetznaz men are big bulldog steroid heads who butt through bricks, glass bottles, and even walls!, They can speak english and other languages, sniper you from half way through a parachute descent!.
Just who are these men?
They only wear thier own uniforms during training and whoever fails to become one gets shot. I believe there was Spetznaz action in britain!
I still like the US Navy SEALs better but i still think the Spetznaz are a lot harder.
From NATO SF units, I think the French Foreign Legion are the hardest, Heard they were the only army ever to beat guerillas!.
French foriegn legion the hardest? Are you serious? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Foriegn Legion guys only good for singing, getting left in a desert somewhere, and getting massacred to a man? That is hardly hardcore.
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Anybody who uses the generic term "Spetsnaz" to describe some mythic unit has no idea what the hell he/she is talking about.
Spetsnaz, Spetsialnogo-Naznacheniya, just means "Special Assignment". Any Special Forces unit in the former USSR is called "Spetsnaz". OMON, same as SWAT, deal with small scale operations dealing with criminals taking hostages etc. SOBR, is more like FBI special forces.
GRU maintains the best trained units of "Spetsnaz", as combat experience and at least 10 years of military service are needed just to qualify. Nothing has ever been published about these, but this type of unit dates back to WW2, when the Red Army formed the first "Spetsnaz" units, NKVD(KGB, FSB today) and GRU both formed their 1st Special Forces back then starting in 1941.
FSB maintains "Alfa" and "Vympel", 2 units with a Battalion sized amount of people per unit. Both today are just basic Anti-Terrorist units, during the opening of the Afghan war "Alfa" was more like a Ranger or Navy S.E.A.L. unit. About 22 of these guys captured the Afghan government palace during the night and secured Kabul in December of 1979.
Every Army Regiment has a Platoon specially assigned for Spec. Recon., these too are considered "Spetsnaz". Their missions are similar to SAS, and these usually go on to the GRU "Spetsnaz".
As far as equipment, it is the best, even during the Yeltsin years.
<<Don't quote me on this, but from what I've read of, and from what we've seen of them in Actaion (The Checnyan school and the Moscow Theatre), the Spetznatz seem to be more 'foward oriented'. "There is the goal, now lets get it done with kill anyone that gets in the way."
That is, where most special forces in counter-terrorism, it's all about 'Save the Hostage' the Russians are all bout 'Kill the hostage-takers'.
The SEALs I'm guessing would be more the sneak around, lets try not to get into combat unless we need to and do the job, then sneak back. I know that's over-simplifying it, but the difference predominantly sociitial.
Where Russians are quite happy to blow up buildings with tanks and helicoptors to kill a handful of terrorists, if the US or Britain do the same, civillians back home tend to wringe their hands and/or kick up a stink.>>
Okay genius, the scenario is 50 terrorists take a Movie Theater hostage(1,000 people) in the US and wire all entrances with motion sensing mines, any attempt at entry will lead to an explosion. Also 20 of the terrorists have strapped explosives to themselves filled with metal nuts and bolts for greater shrapnel effect, all they need to do is press the trigger and they kill 20 hostages (besides that their leader is holding a trigger which will detonate all mines).
Sound easy to do for you? 2 guys with AK-47's sent the Los Angeles Police Force running for cover in 1997(or 98), imagine 50 of those with grenade launchers and land mines. Your SWAT would be 100% incapable of guaranteeing less than 500 casualties if they try to take the movie theater. Real life is not a movie, those Police Spetsnaz(that is what they were not "Army soldiers" like some idiot western media reported) in Beslan and Moscow had 1,000 tons on their shouldiers and a Western Media barking for appeasement of the terrorists.
You think their decisions were easy? In fact there was NO DECISION to capture the school. Because the idiot reporters were telling the terrorists EVERYTHING on TV. The "Spetsnaz" had to act with the situation they were given, it was already too late when the terrorists blew up their bombs, 100's of people were dead, the terrorists used hostages as human shields and the civilians with guns firing on the school did not help either. When the terrorists opened fire on people escaping 4 Spetsnaz Police Officers jumped in the way to shield the civilians, KILLING THEMSELVES in the process to help the hostages.
That is something you will never see from any Navy S.E.A.L.S., self-sacrifice to save the innocent.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the Kalashnikov!"
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I was replying to wtr1982, to his distortion of reality.
Navy S.E.A.L.S. are not a SWAT team. That is what wtr1982 was talking about.
Given the situation SWAT would also not be able to avoid casualties.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the Kalashnikov!"
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Excuse me, but how am I an idiot? I'm hardly the one being retorting with such sarcastic gems as "Okay genius" or "Sound easy to you?".
Unless either of you have actual experiance in any of those respective services by which to clarify matters, rather than quoting from the simmilar sources I've likely got my information from, I'd appreciate not being referred to as an idiot.
Did I offend kalina1981 by implying somehow that the Russians don't care about rescuing hostages? I didn't mean to imply that, but rather what I meant was that their approach to simply gassing the theatre was an easier method, and risky considering how the gas built up in a confined area and killed some people (hostages included), but I never said nor intented to imply it was wrong. And perhaps my views are coloured by what I see on TV of American SWAT teams, and what I know, such as it is. But I don't imagine US or British or New Zealand SWAT Teams/Hostage Rescue teams/Counter-Terrorism Teams doing that, knowing as one does the risks of gas sitting as it tends to do.
But in the end, the casualties were less than had the terrorists set their explosives off in a conventional assault, so they made a good call. Thats why they're paid and trained to make the calls they have to do; so the rest of us don't have to.
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Ah, much appreciated then. Sorry for the mistake.
shareHey Super mate, there seems to be another sensible SWCC on here besides you YOU ARE NOT ALONE Lol.
Good grief I have never read so much uniformed bollocks than some of the stuff written about the Spetsnaz on here. And 300 punches and a young man sticking up for his dad aside alot of you should know better. Unless the US Forces educational progams have changed recently you guys should get at least a minimum briefing on other forces.
So Spetsnaz who are they? They are as informed posters have pointed out mixed bag of forces whose role and designation has evolved over the years to the point there is no direct correlation to any Western SF unit. There is links and mission capabilities attuned to just about every military and civil police function. Spetsnaz are primarily now a Police CT unit and there are Spetnaz forces in formations as diverse as the Navy Spetnaz commanded by (Naval GRU) to (MVB) Regional Interior Ministry Police. The quality of the troops in training and capabilities varies accordingly with the highest readiness Spetsnaz grouping actually part of the FSB rather than the Russian Military. The famous Spetsnaz formations are of course the Alpha Group now CSN(FSB) which is a paramilitary CT group. The Vympel also CSN(FSB) is trained simulary to Alpha except it's role is more defined on Recce and large target CT/MCT. In reality these are the two most visable and transparently capable of comparison to a Western SF force. Alpha and Vympel would be close in operational designation to SFOD-D, DEVGRU, plus the go duty CT Squadron of the SAS or M Squadron SBS. I also have disagree as to the idea that these forces are a shadow of their former self, the 340 operators of Alpha and the 550 Operators of Vympal are more than ever well trained, motivated and equipped. Most arm chair generals tend to make the mistake of relating the quality of the above to the other major Spetsnaz formations. The MVB PSN and OSN units. These are Battalian/Regimental sized forces with taskings which can't really be compared with any Western SF unit. They have and do operate in the Caucuses in a role backing up the regional Alpha and Vympel detachments much akin to the UKs SFSG or the 75th Rangers TF operations. Yet they are still in effect a Police formation. MVB also has a large number of Special Police forces called OMON, it was these forces we saw looking so bedraggled in the Beslan Siege. The Russian media is forbinden from filming Alpha or Vympel operational teams without the express permission of the highset authorty in the Kremlin. This actually does means something in Russia as the freedom of the press has not reached to Moscow to that degree and any camera man stupid enought to go against Putin and this order will find himself living on the Magadan peninsula.
So those are the Spetsnaz we consider the primary and best equipped in the Russian Federation. Of course there is the Army and Naval Spetsnaz forces operationally comanded by the Russian Military Intelligence Agency (GRU) These are indeed a shadow of their former selves but not so drwn down as the rest of the Russian military as they were very much involved in Chechnia and the wider Caucasus campaignes. They proved their undeiable worth and utility operating as Recce and FISH specialists. A great deal is now known of the major formations named Special Designation Brigades (ObrSpN) and they are spread liberally throughout the Russian Federation. They are in essence a Ranger SFSG Type formation, but have specialised cadres designed for special roles. However, the really defined special forces roles as seen in our Western Special Forces are now carried out by Alpha, Vympel and PSN/OSN forces.
Sadly the Naval Spetsnaz has fallen the furthest during the post USSR decline as it's role has been taken over by both Alpha/Vympal and the recce battalions of the Naval Infantry! There still exists two units at present as far as I know one attached to Northern Fleet and One attached to the Pacific Fleet with these formations rotating personnel to cover small cadres in the other Russian Fleets, Black Sea etc. However they are a force trying to define a role for themselves and facing a shrinking operational specialisation!
If you read Vladimir Rezun under his pen name Viktor Suvorov you will read some of the greatest imaginative bollocks ever to be written about any unit. It is the source of the "Pass or Die" and "300 strikes per minute" garbage! But he was selling a book and wanted a lot of patriotic clods to be able to drink their Vodka and feel good about the Strong Russian Military.
A good site to get the historical background to the Spetsnaz is the following. Its written in normal language without to much military terminology!
www.agentura.ru/specnaz
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I am office bound most of the time now so I guess I am a enforced REMF at the moment. A commission isn't all that fun in some respects! Read EXPLICITSOUL5's post it looks like he's one of your small merry band of mad boat drivers!
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About ten posts up from this one!
http://imdb.com/user/ur4499400/comments
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"Im soo ronery"
Ah vewy sowwy I didn't check the other page. I thought gosh this guy is good, does Super know him? Obviously you have more than a passing knowledge of the posters text LOL!
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Hey Super, I only correct you as you appreciate getting things right.
Not Special Forces though. There are Several Special Brigades within the Division/Legion. 1 a Parachute Brigade, that is Quite Similar to the US Army 75th Ranger Regiment
The 1 a was disbanded for trying to overthrow De Gaul during the Algeria Independence furball the special operations unit of the legion is;
2e REP - 2e Régiment Étranger de Parachutistes, I have two friend who I was in the Brigade with now serving! Ones the Adjudant-chef of The 1st Company!
The French special forces units most like what we would call "Special Forces" are; 1er RPIMa. Has got legionaries who have opted for French citizenship and re assigned from the REP. The GROUFUMACO are the Navy special forces and are better than the Army in professionalism and tactical doctrine I have worked with both, and arent biased, LOL. I have worked with two of their teams once operationally, Trepel, and one doing HAHO insertion training, Monfort! I am no fan of the legion not because the blokes or level of training is bad, but they have an operational ethos which is way behind. You can have competent troops but if the methodology of deployment is stupid then .......
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Not Special Forces though. There are Several Special Brigades within the Division/Legion. 1 a Parachute Brigade, that is Quite Similar to the US Army 75th Ranger Regiment
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Ah now I re read it I see where you are coming from. Take back correction ;-)
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I would much rather work with Legion, then Regular French Army. I had the Opportunity to Work with both. The French in Kosovo and Macedonia. The Legion in S. America for Riverine/Counter-Narcotics stuff. The French Army is absolutley one of the most unprofessional bunch of troops Ive seen. And they smell like sh it.
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Yeah the French Army generally are complete tossers and like you said are happy with that!
The 3e REI the guys you worked with probably from Kourou. Are pretty good at jungle warfare and are the force jungle warfare trainers.
I think the same they have a bad rep partly because they have toss commanders. You have well trained very motivated soldiers deployed with idiots tactically leading them.
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actually the S.A.S are world renound as being the best but it seems everyone has forgotten about the israeli special forces (Sayeret Matkal) one of the most battle hardened groups in the world, add to this one of the most effective intelligence networks in the world ( mossad) and you have a very lethal combination, as a lot of people who didnt like israel have found out.
share Superbm2day
Alright I may have been mistaken, but it does not change the fact that "Spetsnaz" is just a designation not a unit.
GRU(Military Main Intelligence Directorate) "Spetsnaz" are the best in their field in Russia/USSR.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the Kalashnikov!"
So, MADCATWR, not liking Israel is a capital offense, right?
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It certainly is an odd thread.
kalina1981 had it right about designation and the part about "spetsnaz" units being attached to virtually every division cannot be ignored. The question cannot even start to be answered until we narrow down which spetsnaz we are talking about.
In any case, with so many of them, how could they all be selected and trained to the SEAL standard? But you can count on one thing, the top-of-the-line spetsnaz will be very hard, trained in their specialties to the point they can do it in their sleep, and capable of extreme brutality without blinking an eye in carrying out their missions.
I think the whole 'if you fail you get shot' is one of those B.S. mystique stories that pop up to add to their 'leetzness'. A myth in the same vein as the 'OMFG the threw Vietnamese prisnors from helicoptors all the time!' or 'American Soldiers took drugs all the time in Vietnam, even in the field!' or 'American soldiers raped and murdered all the time in Vietnam....when they weren't screwing whores who were always VC/NVA spies'.
As to the French Foreign Legion, they're good, and they're not near as specialized as 'special' forces. Also they're good because they get deployed into the fight rather than having to do all that peactime work, thats part of the allure of joining it. Nobody joins the military to clean knobs and paint stones, it's all about going in and killing the the bad dudes.
So any Russian telling how Spetznatz soldiers who fail to pass get shot, is either a lying drunkard SOB who was never in the Spetznatz (most likely), or a Drunk Spetznatz soldier having a good laugh at the stupid rube he was telling said story too. People will eat any ammount of crap up if it's flavoured well enough.
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To compare two special foreces is nearly impossible. Every special unit got their speciallity.
I was a solider in the Norwegian Army Ranger Command (HJK) and in the winter of 2003 we beat both SAS and the US Army Rangers in an winter training mission. But later that year we got our butt kicked by the US Rangers in a desert training mission.
U.S. Navy SEALS are the finest warriors on the planet. Many of them are even former Delta Force, Marine Force Recon etc, which are already amazing. after SEAL Training, these men are the best of the best. I have no doubts SEALS could win in any battle situation versus another Country's special Operations/Forces unit.
shareYou better have doubts...SEAL's aren't as good as Hollywood and overly-patriotic Americans think they are. In fact the whole USSOCOM, except ISA, is not as good as everyone thinks they are.
The US Army's Intelligence Support Activity is the best of the American elite units, primarily because they use their brains...No one knows about them, and you don't see too many former ISA unit members come out and do book deals. You only see this with the high-profile Delta, Ranger, Green Berets, SEAL's and Force Recon fellas who don't bother to keep quiet about their supposed exploits like real covert warriors should.
Didn't the SEAL's drown in Grenada? Why did they drown? Because the unit leader didn't want to miss out or be forced to quit and look like a loser to his peers despite the fact that their air/water insertion was supposed to be a daylight/calm seas one, instead of the night/bad weather/rough seas that it eventually became. Where is the professionalism here? Nothing but brawn instead of brains, and people died as a result.
Didn't the SEAL's suffer conducting a mission in Panama that wasn't their specialty. Why wasn't another unit chosen that was trained for those type of jobs (Rangers and Paratroopers)? Because the SEAL's didn't want to miss out on the action. Again where is the professionalism?
Who had the capability to clear the Persian Gulf of mines during the 1991 Gulf War? Not the SEAL's, not the U.S. Navy...it was the Canadians and Australians.
The Australians even had to teach the SEAL's how to do shallow water mine clearance after the Gulf War!
And wasn't it a SEAL bungle that got a whole bunch of SOF people killed at Robert's Ridge in Afghanistan? Someone forgot to tell the Taliban and Al-Qaeda that the SEAL's are invincible: Roberts didn't last long after he fell out of the helo did he?
The only unit in the SEAL community that even approaches elite is DEVGRU. The standards have dropped...
There were originally 3 SEAL teams...1, 2 and 6. Then it became 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 8. Now its 1,2,3,4,5, DEVGRU, 7,8 and 10.
To have this much SEAL's , the standards were relaxed. According to a book called "Brave Men, Dark Waters", in the 1990's veteren SEAL's complained that the Navy was modifying BUD/S to provide more counselling to candidates to help them pass...there is no "Bell-Ringing/I quit" anymore. To me SEAL's are light infantry men that can swim. They're nothing special. They can't even haul a heavy pack around for long distances behind enemy lines because "that's not what they do", apparently.
In other Special Units around the world, the operators are trained to operate as a team and (in an emergency) by themselves. In selection courses what the assessors look for is not teamwork, but SELF-DISCIPLINE under the harshest of circumstances. You cannot ask anyone for help, or draw strength from others or get feedback from them with regards to how you're doing...you have to be self-confident and be self-reliant. It is not selfishness it's reality. I'm not saying that Team work is not emphasised because it is...however you erode the quality of the unit if you train everyone to rely on each other instead of being competent and confident in their own person, assist others if and when necessary, not in every litte bitty thing that each operator can really do themselves.
I tell you SEAL's are good but are overrated by Hollywood and by over-zealous patriots who live in Fantasyland. As one ex-US servicemen commented "We don't own CQB tactics anymore."
If Americans as a whole continue to have a habit of overinflating their own confidence in their own capabilities, and thinking everyone is not as good as they are they will continue to get shocks to their systems like what happened in the Mayaguez Incident, Grenada, Panama, Somalia and in Afghanistan.
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Your lack of insider knowledge related to the SEAL Teams is unbelievable! Your misunderstanding of why combat decisions were made in historic situations is even greater than your lack of insider knowledge. You lack any true appreciation for the history of the Teams and the training/mindset necessary to become a part of the organization. The generic opinions you have offered can be easily found in numerous books and magazines which are directly marketed/targeted at the wannabe-tough, fantasy mercenary, and fantasy-spec-ops in our society... and they do not reflect reality as I knew it as a member of SEAL Team ONE. Your opinion is certainly your own to offer, and that is your right... but your credibility regarding anything you might offer related to Special Operations units and SEALs in particular is extremely lacking.
The SOCOM involvement in carefully selecting SEAL utilization was not always the case; in days gone by there were senior military authorities who made decisions about how SEALs would be employed, yet who had no first hand knowledge or experience related to Spec Ops. Such was the case in Grenada and four men died. Such was the case in Panama at Paitila Air Field; four men died and nine men were badly wounded. Uninformed decisions were made regarding the employment and operational parameters of SEALs in those scenarios, and as a result SEALs died. They aren't infantry, they aren't a screening force, and they aren't 'regular' personnel. They are most certainly not the optimal tool for every job... and they aren't what was seen in the movie NAVY SEALS. I've spoken with my Teammate, author, and screenwriter, Chuck Pfarrer, on several occasions in the last two years, and spent some time discussing that movie in particular. One of his specific goals was to tell a 'ripping good HOOYAH story without revealing any insider information related to the SEAL Teams or their operational capabilities'. He did that incredibly well... as evidenced by all of the other posts related to his film. It IS a damned good story... it just isn't about the real SEAL Teams or the way they operate. I really enjoy watching it... but I groan whenever I run across all the 'experts' on online boards who offer the movie or the storyline as being 'real'... or rant on about all the various things they 'know for sure' about the SEAL Teams.
SEALs aren't superhuman, and neither are any of the other Spec Ops units around the world. But the number of men who can qualify to be in any of those units is a tiny fraction of the overall male population.
The SEALs didn't need special training from the Australian SAS regarding shallow water mine clearance, however interservice and international training exchanges are a regular part of SEAL duty. BTW mine clearance by US personnel is normally handled by Navy EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) and not by SEALs. One of my SEAL classmates spent 4 years with the Aussie SAS and speaks very highly of them. Another spent several years interacting with the German Spec Ops units and spoke highly of their maritime warriors and abilities. Another Teammate who served as CO of one of the SEAL Teams speaks very highly of both the British SAS, and the British SBS. Another Teammate has offered me the opinion that the Israeli Sayaret is one of the most highly trained and capable of all Spec Ops units. I personally had an opportunity to go to Russia in 1998 and spend some time speaking with one of my Spetnaz counterparts - in Russian - and it was like I was talking with one of my own SEAL Teammates. They are humans, not steroid-pumped robots... and they sure as **** don't train to deliver 300 hand-to-hand killing blows per minute as was offered by another poster. We parted as friends; each carrying gifts from the other. [note: Spetznaz is a term derived from SPETZIAL NAZNAT "Special Knowledge". I'd offer more background in the Russian language, but I don't have a Cyrilic keyboard and I don't suppose there are many Russian readers here anyway]
Spec Ops units are just that - SPECIAL. They aren't 'one size fits all' and they aren't applicable to every scenario. Trash talking about such dedicated patriots (our or 'theirs') seriously reduces any credibility anyone might otherwise have regarding the subject.
I will end by saying that your lack of respect for my fallen Teammate, ABH1 Neil C. Roberts, your complete lack of knowledge regarding the incidents at Takur Gar ("Roberts Ridge"), and your apparent willingness to rewrite history to fit your own interpretations appear to reflect a serious dislike for the US Navy SEALs as a whole. I could go on... but I won't; no purpose would be served in giving any further credence to your rant.
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Hi SuperBM1!
I've been meaning to ask this question to a SEAL, I hope you'd take the time to answer.
I've read most of the books by Lt. Cmdr. Richard Marcinko, along with others about the SEALs (like the bio of Lt. Cmdr. Walsh). I noticed that with Marcinko, it's either one would hate or like him.
Based on his books, I think he's really one bad-ass operator who really cares for his men. But Walsh in his book describes the Rogue Warrior as somebody who's just building a cult around him (especially when he was forming SEAL Team 6). Personally, I think Marcinko's just being an unconventional warrior in an unconventional unit (SEALs). The top brass just didn't (or would not want to) understand him and his methods.
What's your opinion about this? Thanks a lot.
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OK, thanks!
Walsh's book (a bio) is entitled "SEALs!". He wrote that he was also in Urgent Fury though with a different Seal Team. I feel sorry for those ST-6 members who drowned off Grenada. A glaring example of how the Top Brass made an erroneous use of military assets.
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Case_Alumni... Mike Walsh is a product of the west coast Teams (as am I), and his writing reflects much of the sentiments shared among the west coast guys. CDR Marcinko was the right man in the right place when the need arose, and he created ST-6 based upon some previous ideas related to a high-mobility, quick-response, anti-terrorist unit. Having read his non-fiction works, you know the details and I won't even attempt to rehash them here. Marcinko is a damned fine SEAL, an extremely effective warrior, and there isn't a UDT Frogman or SEAL who will argue against that point regarding his professional abilities.
CDR Marcinko was a product of the east coast UDT/SEAL training and Teams, and you should be aware that there was a marked degree of competition between the east coast and west coast teams. In his original ROGUE WARRIOR book, CDR Marcinko expresses some personal notions about the professionalism and abilities of the west coast SEAL Team members (then serving in the RUNG SAT SPECIAL ZONE in Vietnam) which were not entirely complimentary. Those remarks did not sit well with many of the men who served on the west coast Teams, and a rift of sorts has been the result. This is most definitely NOT a case of every SEAL on one coast disliking every SEAL on the other coast - far from it. It is a case of some individuals (particularly those whose capabilities were so publicly disparaged or called into question) being displeased with what they viewed as unprofessional and inaccurate statements.
The SEAL Teams, despite all of their uniqueness and the rarity of the men who successfully complete training, are comprised of human beings... subject to most of the human foibles and failings that befall the rest of humanity. No one likes to be criticized, and no one likes their professionalism to be called into question... and hard feelings sometimes take years to fade away.
In my own opinion CDR Marcinko is a fine SEAL, an incredibly gifted tactician, a visionary, and one of the best the SEAL Teams have ever turned out. For the most part the men who served under him will offer sentiments that far exceed my own. As with any individual possessing a driven personality, however, he has also collected some critics along the way. Some have likened this to a 'cult'. Whether that is appropriate or not is for others to assess. I sit in the middle of the road and marvel at the professional capabilities of the warriors on both sides of the question.
I hope that by putting Mike Walsh's comments into perspective you now have a better understanding of the atmosphere that existed when his book was written. Mike's a great guy, too... and short. Did I mention he's short? He was a very effective PRU Advisor in Vietnam, and he definitely knew how to get the job done. Great guy, great sense of humor... and short! (never underestimate a short man... they hit dangerously low almost all the time!) :)
S. Robinson
USN 1970-1978
SEAL Team ONE
Inshore Undersea Warfare Group ONE
UDT-SEAL Association
Special Operations Association
POW Network Advisory Board
Naval Special Warfare Archives - SOF Analyst/Contributing Journalist
Disabled American Veterans - Life Member
FORMER Special Investigator - SEAL Authentication Team
Author of the book "NO GUTS, NO GLORY - Unmasking Navy SEAL Imposters"
Don't believe everything you see in the movies! ~S. Robinson
thank you very much, shadek-1 for your reply. like super bm's response, your message helps put things in a better perspective. i guess a tough team like the navy seals can really have its share of skilled and driven warriors in which competition is totally unavoidable. i admire both marcinko and walsh for their professionalism. i think marcinko is the typical gung-ho commander any operator will follow to hell and back, so to speak. walsh, on the other hand, based on what he has written about himself, stayed a long time in the field (up to the late 80s!) doing what he is best at. yes, i noticed he also referred to his diminutive height several times in the book, and he only shows he has that admirable and rare sense of self-depracating humor.
i'll also try to look for a copy of your book. thanks again.
I think you can assess different units by the following criteria:
Operators- We are all human, therefore we all have the same physical abilities no matter what unit we are in. Mentality- Americans have a higher standard of living than Russians which might make them more prone to mental stress when in harsh conditions. Americans are also brainwashed by movies to think they are invulnerable, they might actually think they are mightier than they really are which is a shock to the system when things start to go wrong. I think the Russians may win this in terms of mental toughness.
Leadership and chain of command- Are theses operators being led by the right kind of leaders? Leaders that have experience, know how to get the most out of their men. Does the chain of command utilize these operators in the right capacity, all it takes is for a few remfs to mess up the morale of the men and i think Us forces have alot of remfs messing with line troops. I don't know how it is in Russia but it seems like they have a no nonsense attitude especially how they dealt with recent terrorist activies in their country. Their President is also an EX KGB officer which says alot about their attitude in dealing with situations. THey aren't restricted by politics as much because they have a much more militaristic rather than democratic government.
experience- How much experience these operators have and in what kind of activities. Judging by the current war against terror i'd say the seals were getting alot of combat experience, although the russians have been embroiled in a constant war with terrorists and internal security problems for ages. so i think it would be a draw here.
training- Good training can be half the battle, i would think the US leads in this field because of its huge military expenditure and they have gadgets comming out of their keesters.
Equipment- The US again trumps other countries because their equipment is top of the line but theres a point at which none necessary gear only serves to slow down the operator, so you can have too much. The Russians don't seem to have all the newest gear but why mess with a good thing unless its a huge advancement. familiarity with the weapons is also crucial, if weapons development is faster than weapon familiarisation then you have a problem. I still think the US has an edge in this department here as well.
Support- Intelligence support can give operators vital information to defeat the enemy, with the US's UAV's i would say they have the best support available, however if the support is tied up in beureacratic red tape it renders it useless. Joint forces support, artillery, airforce, infantry, i'd say the US spec forces can depend on joint forces support readily that is if inter service rivalry doesn't get in the way of the job at hand. I would hazard to guess that the Russians spec ops dont have such a support network available and have to make do with whatever is at hand, asymetrical warfare might be their forte.
The terrain- What kind of environment will they be fighting in and be use to fighting/training in.
So in the end it seems the Americans may have the edge over the Russians however its all purely academic since we aren't privy to the information and are only basing things on scraps of information weve read and heard from others. In the end its about strengths and weaknesses of the units doing the fighting on the day that is in question.
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Hi
Probably talked this topic to death!
It is nice to see that people feel passionate about the men and women who protect the world we live in. There is not much that makes me feel patriotic anymore, but the fine job our guys do in difficult conditions, does make me think of the flag.
It is very hard to judge any two units the same. All operate in different areas of warfare and most of what happens is not made public.
We could sit here all day arguing......
Who is best: SAS, SEALS, GIGN, Marinejegerkommandoen, and DELTA.........
... and at what: unconventional warfare, counter-terrorism, reconnaissance, direct action
Whilst one may say that the British SAS are the most respected and feared unit in the world, they appear in the public eye too much. Since the Iranian Embassy in May 1980, we have all been keen to see them in action and this can sometime work against them. Plus, this has helped the lesser known SBS operate in near silence. Most other units have based their training and selection on the brits, so therefore, respect has to be acknowledged.
However, as I said, they are all elite. I would not like to be on the receiving end of any of them. They all work very closely with each other. Share training and even share operations.
I’m proud of each and every one of them
Lee
SEAL's would win but only with Sheen in charge.
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