I saw this movie when it came out in 1972. I was saw it alone and the reviewer said that it had science fiction and sex in it. About five minutes after leaving the movie I got very angry about it. I remembered my grandmother who had been murdered by the Nazis for being Jewish. Kurt Vonnegut Jr. seems to equate to bombing of Dresden to the holocaust. Slaughterhouse Five shows that the worst people in the movie, i.e. those that made Billy Pilgrim miserable were his fellow American Gi's, not the German wardens who behaved quite properly. Only after Dresden has been bombed does it show that the maddened Germans kill his friend. Kurt Vonnegut, who is of German descent, tries to minimize the Nazi crimes, has written that the Germans were bad almost in a light comical way. Of course, other German cities were bombed as severely as Dresden, only they did not have the same artistic architecture as Dresden did. Also he has written another book where Israel has a Nazi criminal, but the criminal is American. Kurt Vonnegut claims to have been a witness to the bombing of Dresden but I have read another book by Victor Klemperer, I Will Bear Witness, who claims to have his life saved by the bombing of Dresden. He was a Jew converted to Christianity with a non Jewish wife. These type of people where treated badly by the Germans but not sent away to the concentration camps. That is, until Feb. 1945 when the Nazi policy changed and they were sent away. There were about 100 of them in Dresden and when Dresden was bombed they were about to be sent away. After the bombing, Klemperer and his wife fled to another German city and said that all his documents were destroyed in the bombing. So a few Jews actually had their lives saved in the chaos from the allied bombing of Dresden and other German cities.
He's not the only one who thinks Dresden's bombing unneccessarry. I was reading Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States" and he holds a similar position. It's a very liberal stance. And a disgusting one. Germany deserved EVERYTHING it got during World War 2 IF NOT MORE. It was a disgusting dictatorship which was treated with too much respect afterwards. If you compare the numbers, the allies suffered WAY more casualties than the germans. In fact, germany killed countless civilians (hell, many of its own). Can you honestly, with any sense, defend the people of 1930's and 1940's Germany? At all?
HIECH1 PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS!!! Since you like to ask questions when you have no answer for a remark. answer this:
If you were a German, and if you denounced anti-semitism you would be murdered, would you protest the Holocaust?
Also during the Holocaust, are 100 Jewish lives equivalent to many more German lives?
PLEASE ANSWER THIS POST
Also, you are too stupid and illiterate to understand Vonnegut's theme. It is one thing to disagree Vonnegut's theme, but it is moronic to actually argue his "message" in the book if you do not even understand it. Also, my uncle is a history professor at Berkeley and he has stated that your remark that "80% of Germans supported the Holocaust" is not only very inaccurate but also moronic. Please reply to this post.
The bombing of Dresden in no way affected the war. It was pure brutality and evil. To me it was no different than what Hitler was doing. Why didn't the allies concentrate their efforts on places that truly needed attention. The destruction of Hamburg and Dresden proves to me that the allies were just as horrible in these two instances as the murdering of 6 million Jews and 20 million Christians during WW2. Hitler was evil and brought about catastrophe to so many different types of people and cultures. That can never be forgiven but the bombings of cities like Hamburg and Dresden almost as bad too. Kurt Vonnegut captured this story so well and I don't find him attempting to minimize crimes against Jews at all. I think you're overreaching here. Nothing good came out of this war, nothing at all.
Well Hitler and the Nazis are gone so that is what good came out the war. Of course there are other problems but at least this one is gone. Second guessing what was necessary to end WWII with minimal allied deaths is Monday morning quarterbacking.
I have no desire to destroy my brain by reading through this absurd mess of poor grammar and spelling, but let me just say, OP is either a gigantic and ignorant moron, or a pretty decent troll. Either way, everyone should ignore him and this world would be a better place.
I do believe that the original poster has a very good point even if the conversation went farther than was needed.
This isn't so much about the the pros/cons of the bombings themselves but the writer's intent. Writers do have a lot of control over what they choose to write about, so when they write about something it usually means they are trying to make some sort of a point. If heich1 really feels Kurt was biased and it showed in his writing than he might have a good case. Again, this is purely a debate about intent. To quote Dylan and think about the moralistic approach would be missing the point in this case.
Once again, I'm not talking about the Dresden Bombings but about the WRITER'S INTENT. If you are like me, you have learned to read between the lines and pick up on certain things. I am not accusing Kurt of anything just explaining and expanding on the original's wirter's topic (i. e. reaction to the movie).
Now that said, keep in mind that the Dresden situation wasn't good and I'm sure many innocent people did suffer. However, this was THE WAR and the fight against Nazis was unavoidable. And it was Germany more than anyone else, who put its citizens in this miserable position. Unlike the nuclear bombings of Japan, this was a very urgent situation and as Nazi continued to kill, something needed to be done.
History is the study of what happenned in the past, not the ethical value of the event, although historians do comment on the event. That is ethics. Historians differ about the ethics of bombing Dresden.
agreed. the OP made this whole discussion about Jews just so he could spew his family history and racism all over us. Obviously he thinks that all Jews are perfect and have done no wrong, whereas non-Jewish Germans are all evil and deserved what they got in Dresden. That's just sick.
and if Vonnegut is a FOURTH GENERATION American, I think it is complete *beep* to say that he sympathizes with the Nazis. Vonnegut is so clearly anti-war and anti-senseless murder...
And back to the first post, Vonnegut just wanted to write about the effects of war on one man, Billy Pilgrim. Billy didn't experience any part of the Holocaust, so why would Vonnegut write about it???
MrSyntax- "If I was a funeral director, I'd be a necrophile for sure!"
You are an idiot. The OP raised a valid point about WRITER's INTENT. It's not about he did or didn't experience. It's about what he CHOSE to write about and what that may or may not imply. We aren't just talking content either, but the tone of the novel and how it emphasized certain elements of the story.
It is also worth noting that in introduction to "Mother Night" Vonnegut publically admitted that had he been born in Germany he very likely would have become a Nazi. This is clearly something you didn't know and shouldn't comment about. I suggest you actually read the novel.
I am not calling Vonnegut a Nazi but acknowledging that this is a valid topic for discussion.
And I don't think OP says or thinks Germans are evil and "deserved" the Dresden bombings. One, could, however, stress the NECESSITY OF THE BOMBING of a nation that for a brief while went completely out of control and threatened the entire world (again, I'm not saying that all the Germans were like that even during that time). It was THE war.
Hm for one, I've actually read the book. I haven't seen the movie though. And if you'd read all 15 pages of this thread, then you would find that the OP indeed does think that it was fine that they bombed non-Jewish Germans. And I understand writer's intent. Vonnegut didn't want to write about the Holocaust, so he didn't write about it. Does that make it BAD of him for writing about the part of the war he wanted to write about? Whatever you say.
MrSyntax- "If I was a funeral director, I'd be a necrophile for sure!"
I think anyone who calls himself "Stormcloud" sounds like he is a neo-nazi. Also his first message calling me a racist sounds like it also. What came first the holocaust or the bombing of Dresden? Also thank you Gonzo Knight for your comments.
I was thinking it came form "Sturm und Drang", ie. "storm and stress" which was a German movement started in the eighteenth century and indicates violence which the Nazis glorified. But I may be wrong.
so heich if your so right about this then dont you think maybe more than one person in this whole board would have agreed with you? by the way that attack on stormcloud's name was completely childish and kind of discredits you so i'm not quite sure why you did that... anyway on to gonzo knight, when vonnegut said if he was born in germany at that time he would have been a nazi he obviously said that as a way of saying anyone (save for a few couragious people) would have been a nazi if they were born in germany at that time since the alternative was death. anyway what both of you need to understand is that vonnegut was writing the book from the view of a man who witnessed the horror that was the bombing of dresden and not the atrocities of the concentration camps (which by the way vonnegut, as a humanist also belives are terrible). now look at this from the view of humanism; a philosophy that values human life over anything else, since vonnegut was a humanist and he witnessed first-hand the bombing of dresden and saw all of the lives it took and had a negative effect on of course he is going to think it is terrible, even if those lives lost were "nazi supporters" (which i highly doubt they were and i'm sure if they did support the nazis it was only out of fear). anyway, you see vonnegut wasn't trying to minimize what the nazis did at all he was just trying to say that there were anti-humanist attrocities on both sides of this conflict. now please understand this was in no way an attack on you or your family! i am just trying to point out a flaw in opinion that you have about one of my favorite authors of all time, who is also a world leader in humanism and would never do anything to try and cover up or diminish the atrocities of the nazis (or allied forces for that matter) because you see he doesnt take a side with the nazis or the allies, in fact he takes a side against both of them and the countless human lives they have ruined. i hope you understand now, but if not hey the world goes on and i know and kurt knows where he stands on this issue. peace
Wow, this is quite a thread. I can't swear to have read all the posts, but I've read many of them.
I just want to say that on the whole I agree with heich1 and Gonzo_Kniight. There is an inherent asymmetry in WWII. The allies were justified in what they did, at least in the overall scale of things. The Nazis were not. The large majority of Germans supported the Nazis. There is no moral comparison between the bombing of Dresden and the Holocaust. The former is not almost as bad as the latter, nor almost almost as bad, nor any iterations of "almost." Basically the analogies given by heich1 early on are valid - maybe not perfect, but good.
This is not to say that Vonnegut was wrong to write his book. But heich1's initial reaction to the movie is a valid one.
War is hell, but sometimes necessary. There will always be organized groups of people willing to start one.
A LOT OF TALK, with many interesting posts along the way, but what the OP really wanted seems crystal clear, from his very first post: a movie with unambiguously evil - no, VERY EVIL germans, like the good old Spielberg movies.
He wanted to see Amon Göth shooting people just for the kick of it; heartless SS soldiers dumping children in trucks like pigs for the slaughter; deranged medical officers performing disgusting experiments; and above all, many chimneys bellowing endless smoke, from the ever-present, never-too-often-reminded, HOLOCAUST!
How did Vonnegut DARE to mention WWII, or Germany or germans, without mentioning the Holocaust?! And to top that - he's a german himself!! So, obviously a criminal by association.
He even went so far as to portray the firebombing of GERMAN civillians, as something bad! Didnt't he know that they DESERVED to die - right, heich1? They were germans, for Christ's sake! Shame on you, Mr. Vonnegut.
You speak as if most Germans alive at the time were directly responsible for the rise of Nazism and Hitler and the Holocaust. In a way, they were. However, given the same set of circumstances, the people of any other country would be liable to do the same. Hitler came to power during the Great Depression, which hit harder in Germany than most countries, because of its already failing economy due to decisions at the Paris Peace Conferences and its loss of WWI. The harshness of this initial punishment for Germany drove people to desperation as they found their money become worthless. What do people do in desperate times? They take desperate measures. Sadly, democracy is hardly suited to the type of desperation the Germans were facing at the time. Hitler, with his charisma and opportunist nature, took advantage of this mass loss of reason, gaining supporters swiftly throughout the early 30s. He used communism as a scapegoat to get him into power with his Enabling Act, and used his own, perverted hatred for Jews as a scapegoat for the problems faced by desperate people in Germany. It is not like these people were any less intelligent than the people of other countries; they were simply desperate. As for most Germans supposedly being 100% supportive of the Holocaust, it is extremely hard for the average individual to deny a totalitarian party once they have gotten power. For many people, the standard of living vastly improved under Hitler, and because most humans are inevitably self-centred, they were willing to turn a blind eye to Hitler's perversions in exchange for their own family's lives. When two people are in a room and one is to be killed, both instinctually want the other to be killed. Most Germans simply did not want to die and tried to ignore the horrors around them (made easier by Nazi propaganda), even if they themselves were the ones committing them ie. The Night of the Broken Glass. Mob mentality can reduce people to savages, and Hitler was a master manipulator. Children, who made up a sizable portion of Germany's population, were unfairly brainwashed into believing in Nazism; this is not their fault, though they too were killed in the bombing of Dresden. Of course, if there had been a large enough resistance against Hitler, his time and the Holocaust would have been either non-existent or much reduced. However, fear of death convinced people otherwise, and whenever someone tried to act against what they knew was inhumane atrocities, they were put down, convincing other people to become "innocent" bystanders. In the end, as much as people can hate Germans for "their" crimes, they are crimes that are due to human nature and the cruelty of the circumstances around them. To describe the majority of the German population during the Holocaust as evil is similar to describing humanity itself as inherently evil, which you can or don't have to believe. It really all comes down to whether or not you believe that two wrongs can make a right. Vonnegut never claimed that the fire bombings of Dresden were worse crimes against humanity than those committed during the Holocaust. He simply made a novel based on his own experiences in Dresden; he didn't experience the Holocaust to anywhere near the same extent. He noticed that many people had simply forgotten about this horrifying act due to its being under the Allied umbrella. It is this reason that he put the emphasis on Dresden over the Holocaust, because he felt that he could offer something new as opposed to another lesson on history, in which of course the Holocaust would be much more prominent. As for his satirical presentation of the Nazis and Germans at large, it is in no way because he treats the subject matter as "light". If you think that, then you read novels and watch movies as a child reads picture books and watches cartoons. At its heart Slaughterhouse-Five is a harsh condemnation of humanity's shortcomings. He presents it as satire to induce a deeper reaction from the reader. He doesn't mock the Holocaust; he mocks humanity at large. The Holocaust was one of the most terrible exploits of humanity, and Vonnegut knows this. None of the murders in WWII are justified, and if you truly believe that the killing of Germans is justified by the much larger amount of people killed during the Holocaust, then you are no better than the roots of Nazi doctrine.
Vonnegut doesn't try to compare the bombing of Dresden to the Holocaust. He has a passage in the book that compares it to the bombing of Hiroshima. That's the comparison you should come away with.
Billy Pilgrim doesn't really witness much of the Holocaust (I doubt many POWs did). In the book, Vonnegut makes a couple of creepy references. You might think they're "light," but they're just irreverent. He deals with deadly serious issues by laughing at them, because there's no other way to make sense of them.
here are the references:
"The British had no way of knowing it, but the candles and the soap were made from the fat of rendered Jews and Gypsies and fairies and communists, and other enemies of the State."
"As you know, I am from a planet that has been engaged in senseless slaughter since the beginning of time. I myself have seen the bodies of schoolgirls who were boiled alive in a water tower by my own countrymen, who were proud of fighting pure evil at the time.” This was true. Billy saw the boiled bodies in Dresden. “And I have lit my way in a prison at night with candles from the fat of human beings who were butchered by the brothers and fathers of those schoolgirls who were boiled. Earthlings must be the terrors of the Universe!"
Don't confuse irreverence with lightness.
If you think that Vonnegut is trying to endorse one side over another, I really think you came away from the movie with the wrong message.
Finally, never make the fatal mistake of blaming an author for an issue you have with a film he didn't make. If you want to criticize Vonnegut, read his book. For all you know the director changed the story heavily.