MovieChat Forums > The 300 Spartans Discussion > 300 Spartans, but 7,000 Greeks.

300 Spartans, but 7,000 Greeks.

posted 18 years ago by jstok
122 replies | jump to latest

While there were 300 Spartans at the pass at Thermopylae, there were 7,000 Greeks in total. The film drastically underrepresents Greek numbers in order to make the stand seem more heroic than it was.

I'm not sure if I should submit this as a historical goof. I don't recall if the movie ever said how many Greeks were actually present. But the film is intentionally misleading on this point.

One the third day, when they were outflanked by the enemy, the Spartans dismissed their allies and prepared for a last stand. 700 Thespians insisted on staying with them and died along with the Spartans. Since they made a larger sacrifice, at least in terms of numbers, perhaps this film really should be called "700 Thespians."

The film doesn't ask this, but what's so heroic about dying pointlessly anyway? Sure it took lots of courage, and it's in keeping with the romantic Spartan warrior ethic, but for those of us who have an entirely unromantic and unsentimental view of war, the idea of men queueing up to die when they don't have to and when the battle is already lost strikes me as idiotic, not heroic.

[–] leekusa 18 years ago

If you're such a great history buff, then you should understand the impact their stand had on the ultimate outcome of the war between the Persians and Greeks. I take it your anti war statement also applies to all wars? perhaps you'd rather be speaking German right now and marching to the ovens singing,"We shall overcome." and giving the soldiers herding you daisies.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] vidurr666 18 years ago

There were in fact only 300 Spartans. Those other troops defended another region (although the 700 Thespains came to aid on the Third and last day of battle). The rest over the Greek army arrived when the Spartans were already dead.

"The number which comprised the Peloponnesian contingents consisted of:
300 Spartans
500 Mantineans
500 Tegeans
400 Corinthians
200 warriors from Phlius
120 Orchomeneans
80 Mycenaeans
1000 Arcadians
This amounts to 3,100 warriors, which is less than the 4,000 inscribed on the epitaph. However, the difference of 900 is most likely to be the emancipated Helots who accompanied the Spartiates in the ratio of 3 to 1. This would account for the 4,000 Peloponnesian warriors to which Herodotus records another 700 from Thespiae and another 400 from Thebes. The historian Diodorus also stated that a 1,000 Locrians and another 1,000 from Phokis increased the ranks to approximately 7,100 Greek warriors.

Now as far as the Persian army is concerned, therein lies the greatest dispute. How was it feasible for Xerxes to amass an army of 2.1 million which consisted of infantry, cavalry, charioteers, Thracians, etc.? The logistics (water, food, etc.) alone show that it was highly improbable in coordinating the mass movement of troops through Asia & Africa into Greece.
Perhaps the most plausible theory as to the size and composition of the Persian army can be found in Peter Green's book 'Xerxes at Salamis' which was later retitled as 'The Greco-Persian Wars'. In his book, Professor Green notes that "The Persian command structure operated - at least, up to corps level - on the decimal system."

Therefore, it was possible that Herodotus inadvertently recorded the strength of the Persian army by tenfold. Instead of 2,100,000 combatants in the Persian army, this number could have consisted of 210,000 warriors. This would be a more realistic number, however, it still should be emphasized that the Persian army overwhelmingly outnumbered the Greek garrison led by King Leonidas and his 300 Spartans."

[–] nekidchickens 18 years ago

The 300 spartans were left by themselves once the greeks left to gather their forces after the back pass betrayal from one of their own. The 300 stayed behind to delay the persian army until Athens was able to defend itself.
great story
J

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] deemon-3 18 years ago

is xerxes in 300 spartans the same persian king of the jewish purim story

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] SammerAsker 18 years ago

The film doesn't ask this, but what's so heroic about dying pointlessly anyway?

pointless , hmm death as a simple fact in its own is not pointless but for some one to ask such question it means only one thing !
he doesn't deserve to know The answer to it

[–] qdfqdf 18 years ago

the guy asking the question is a jealous bitter retard of a clown

[–] ehkurtz 18 years ago

It is amazing to see just how many people"know" exactly what happened to the Spartans. Perhaps someone could tell us what they had for dinner on the last night of the battle as well? Let's just stop a moment and consider that a game of "telephone" played over more than 2000 years ends up a completely different story than the reality.....which no one will ever know. No doubt a lot of people died at the hands of a much smaller army.

"300" is a fun movie, but hardly a future classic. It's a visually stunning remake of "The 300 Spartans" (1962)starring Richard Egan. Much of the dialogue is the same. Enjoy both of them.

[–] furrykef 18 years ago

Let's just stop a moment and consider that a game of "telephone" played over more than 2000 years ends up a completely different story than the reality.

The thing is there's no game of telephone involved here. Herodotus recorded the events around 50 years after they happened, and his writings are still available. It's possible that he exaggerated, or that his sources weren't entirely reliable, but this situation still isn't anything close to playing a game of Telephone for 2400 years.

There is no doubt that 300, and probably The 300 Spartans (which I haven't seen; I'm here out of curiosity), deviate wildly from what actually happened, because that's what movies do. Their primary purpose is to tell a story, and you know that saying about not letting the truth get in the way of a good story (especially in the case of 300). At the very least, there are going to be liberties taken, such as conveniently omitting the role of pederasty in Greek culture, and the like. So I guess the movies might be somewhat like the story being changed by 2400 years of Telephone, but that doesn't mean that we have entirely lost sight of what actually happened.

- Kef

[–] assadnaeem 18 years ago

The spartans spearheaded the assault as historians have stated"The battle of Thermopylae was shaped by the Spartans". They took the brunt of the fighting as well as taking on the immortals and standing to the last man, sure the thespians stayed aswell but only because the spartans were going to stay. The thebans were there as hostages and switched sides as soon as they could.

[–] luca-brasi-2 18 years ago

i really could'nt be bothered to read everyone else's reply's to this but i'll just reply anyway :]
although there were originally a force of 7000 defending the pass, shortly into the battle everyone except the 300 spartans and the 700 thespians were ordered to retreat.
The thespians were left to guard the rear of the spartans who were left to defend against the advance of the peersian army. On the third day of the battle when the greek traitor (who's name i cany remember) led the persian forces over the mountain pass and behind the spartans, the persians found the thespians asleep and completley unready for an attack. The thespians were unable to halt the persians who then attacked the spartans from behind, leodinas died in this attack. The remaining greeks pulled back and made a last stand on a small hill were they were wiped out by persian arrow's.
Anyway so yeah, although there was an army of 7000 orginally the brunt of the persian casualties were dealt out by the 300 spartans.

"A Hard Place to live, an easy place to die"

[–] med_techgr 18 years ago

I though it was Phocaens guarding the pass not Thespians (at least that is what Herodotus say).The Phocaens saw the Persans coming and told King Leonidas about it.Then he sent the other Greeks away and remained to fight there till the end.But 700 Thespiois stayed with him.(They didnt have to stay and die there like the Spartans did (due to the Spartan "Never Retreat,win or die in the battlefield" thing) but they said it was a shame to retreat while other men from another greek city (Sparta) died miles from home defending their city (Thespia).In my eyes Thespiois are even more heroic than the Spartans).

What is your source of information about the "the Persans found the Thespians SLEEPING"?

It was Phocaens guarding the pass not Thespians.

And they were not asleep,they saw the Persans coming.

[–] Petie3-2 18 years ago

Pointless? POINTLESS? Greece was the beginnings of Western Civilization in Europe which would have gone oriental had the Persians won. No Rome. No Charlemagne. No Henry VIII or Elizabeth. No Crusades or need for any. We would already have been beaten. No 9/11. Shalom.

[–] johnf_sf 11 years ago

so if I die helping you to defend YOUR land, YOU are more heroic? ridiculous!

[–] alexjohns6 18 years ago

there were 1300 greeks overall

[–] 18 years ago

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