Mysterious actor deaths
Natalie Wood
shareGeorge Reeves
share
MovieChat Forums > General Discussion > Mysterious actor deaths
Nothing mysterious about her death. She ended up in the water during an argument with Robert Wagner and he left her to die from hypothermia.
shareShe was drunk
shareAnd so was he. They had a fight about Christopher Walken and she ended up in the water. She cried for help, but he told the skipper to leave her there.
shareThe skipper was also drunk and has changed his story several times. A tragic accident. Water and alcohol don't mix.
shareHe hasn't changed it that many times, not more so than Robert Wagner. He pretty much said the same thing as Wagner until a few years ago. He really had no good reason to lie about it now since he incriminates himself. Also important is that his story fits with the witness accounts given at the time. And no, I don't think Wood would've stepped into the dinghy considering her fear of water. It's also ridiculous how no one on the boat supposedly heard her cries while others did.
shareHow did the skipper and Wagner change their stories? The skipper changed his story recently to say Wagner told him to leave her in the water?? This is new to me.
True, you wouldn't think he'd make that up, since it does incriminate him.
How do you think she got into the dinghy? Do you think Wagner forced her into it somehow and cast it adrift? It did strike me as odd that there were people on nearby anchored boats who heard her, yet no one on their boat did.
Some years back he came out and said that Wagner told him Natalie was missing and not to radio for help. It's Lana who said that the skipper told her he actually saw Natalie in the water and Wagner said to leave her there.
I'm not sure why the skipper would suddenly change his story painting himself in a not so positive light, unless he knows more than he previously claimed.
I personally doubt she ever went into the dinghy, she wasn't in it when found.
How she ended up in the water, I truly don't know. Did she slip? Did Wagner push her either accidentally or on purpose? I have no clue, I do think it was the result of an argument.
Very interesting. There's no non-ominous reason for Wagner to not want help to arrive. Did the skipper tell Lana this back not long after Natalie had died?
I agree, it's very unlikely the skipper would change his story to one that makes things look bad for him.
Wasn't she found floating near it? I also thought there was evidence she'd tried to get into it, and failed.
I found the answer to my question about when, and how, the captain told Lana what really happened that night, and thought you'd be interested.
This is an interview with Lana conducted by Nancy Grace. I'm not a fan of Nancy Grace (too sensationalist for my tastes), but that's neither here nor there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRFl-Jt-mGs
Interesting that Wagner lied about the bottle of wine he smashed. First he told the detectives it must have rolled off the table, and that's why it was broken. Later, as we know, in his book he admitted he'd broken it.
Another point that seems a bit odd but might mean nothing, it was the captain who identified Wood's body that morning after it had been recovered, not Wagner.
Ah, thanks for finding the video!
I guess Wagner could've been too distraught to identify her body.
I'm not sure why he thought it was so important to hide the fact that there was a heated argument with Walken. So Natalie just left because she felt like it? Oh no, wait, now he says she simply went to tie the dinghy because it kept smashing against the boat.😑
Yeah, he could have been too distraught, or exhausted, or both.
He wants to hide that he was so angry that night he smashed a wine bottle (that's pretty angry), and then his wife goes missing, and he waits too long to do anything about it. Doesn't look good for him. The husband's always the first suspect, especially when they've been fighting, and a lot of booze was involved. I also believe he was negligent, which resulted in her death, so guilt would be another reason to hide it.
But I agree, his other stories just don't add up.
Did you see my second post? Do you know anything about Wagner insisting the yacht be moved, and the captain moving it?
I heard an interview with the captain and Wagner asked him to go identify her body.
Thinking about it, it seems very strange to me because if it were my loved one, who'd suddenly disappeared, I'd be in shock and denial and would *have to* see the body myself just so I'd know for certain it was really he. As unlikely as it'd be they'd made a mistake, all the same I'd feel I needed to see with my own eyes. And I'd feel like I had to see him one last time.
Forgot to mention, I don't know what she's talking about with Wagner having asked the captain to move the yacht, but he did, and the captain obeyed and moved it. Which is also suspicious. Why move it?
shareI haven't had the opportunity to watch the whole video yet. I assume she's talking about Wagner wanting to move the yacht to a different, more quiet part of the island the night before, which led to an argument and Natalie leaving the yacht with the skipper. It was moved the next day. This was in Davern's latest statement to the authorities.
shareI found the answer in another video, but thanks!
Here's the captain talking about it on Dr Phil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN9kif7dkWI
and a couple more from that show...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlmHSIIQxA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmfBfnzFWY8
Thanks for the vids. I'm always kinda annoyed when people go on Dr. Phil to tell their story, though. And it's also rather irritating that Davern tries to paint himself as a victim.
shareSo, it's justified for the skipper/captain to change his story, but not for Wagner to change , Changing your mind could also be a defense-mechanism because you dont' think anyone will believe you're innocent when you are.
If people took a step back and put into perspective, you'd see an ongoing script (plot twist and turns intact) being written about how and why she drowned .
Let's see. One person changes his story to one that implicates him in the deceased's death.
The other initially lied to the police to hide the fact that there had been conflict to the point of violence, including severe fighting with the deceased shortly before she disappeared, and he (the spouse) was also the last known person to see her alive.
The first person also wanted to immediately search and call for help for the deceased, and the second insisted on delaying it.
One's story changes once, to one that points to his own guilt. The other's story changes to point away from his own guilt, who was also the last person to see her alive.
That could be said about virtually every criminal investigation ever conducted.
Your last comment: ''That could be said about virtually every criminal investigation ever conducted". Yet, Robert Wagner has not been arrested nor indicted. Too bad all of these prisoners who have been locked up for decades and proven innocent were scrutinized by "incriminating" criminal investigations. Really makes you wonder.
Unless you (or anyone else in society) are one of the district attorneys or other authority figures who has worked on this case, you're hearing all these "incriminating"-facts second-hand. I'd like to hear, in concrete terms, what the detectives have to say about it from the horse's mouth.
The most basic thing is the assumption that Robert Wagner:
--Heard her screams, when we dont' for a fact that a drowning intoxicated victim is even physically capable of screaming due to the extreme panic, shock, and treading frozen debilitating water.
--If he did hear screaming, that he understood why she was screaming, as in "Help me, I am drowning and holding on by the edge of the dingy!". He may have thought she was screaming while sitting on the deck in anger and foul-mouthing him. I don't know if Wagner said he heard her screams. ( what some person said about hearing screams is hearsay and not conclusive)
In this scenario, if I just had a fight and my partner stormed off, I am not going to chase after them since that would be the wrong thing to do. And I also would not assume said partner is in deep distress. The natural thing would be to wait until they walk back into the door.
I also wonder how this would have played out if the victim was Wagner (a man) instead of the petite fragile Wood (a woman). Yes, really. At any rate, it gets troublesome when outsiders blithely accuse someone of being a murderous sociopath
A strange response, PN. You avoided everything I wrote, except the last sentence, and then wandered off into left field on that.
My comment about that could be said about virtually any criminal investigation was in response to your "If people took a step back and put into perspective, you'd see an ongoing script (plot twist and turns intact) being written about how and why she drowned."
That's how detectives work: start from the known facts, create hypothesis from there, eliminate or revise if they don't fit, using logic. You could call those hypothesis ongoing scripts, I suppose, but they're not being written out of the air, like fiction.
Then you went on about "The most basic thing is the assumption that Robert Wagner [hearing her screams]." You're the only one I see who's even mentioned that.
There is evidence she may not have been conscious when she went into the water.
"In this scenario, if I just had a fight and my partner stormed off, I am not going to chase after them since that would be the wrong thing to do. And I also would not assume said partner is in deep distress. The natural thing would be to wait until they walk back into the door."
First, we don't know that Wood "stormed off" at all. Second we're talking about being on a 55' boat, surrounded by deep and cold water. She exited the stateroom, where he and she were arguing, out the back doors of the stateroom, onto the back deck, where the swimming platform is, and presumably the dinghy tied to it. It's a small area, as is the stateroom. This is where the captain found Wagner, looking flushed and upset, telling him Wood was missing and to go search the boat for her. Third, you know your partner has a long-standing fear of water in general, and dark water in particular. You also know s/he doesn't know how to operate a dinghy, but s/he and the dinghy are gone.
(cont'd)
Catbookss (8460)
I focused on your last sentence since it's a summary of the entire debate: criminal investigations being conducted. (this is mimicking the Marilyn Monroe debate after all these years)
My point is that we hear quotes here and there, but are not literally hired and active in the actual investigations and re-investigations. Aside from throwing her overboard, I don't know exactly what you think Wagner did, except you said that he was certain she was nowhere on the boat and immediately did nothing. So, either you have a theory of what actually happened to her, or not. And I don't know what you would like to see happen to Wagner over her death.
I thought it was about ignoring her screams for help, unless that was a different board/ discussion. And bruises on her body doesn't mean she was necessarily assaulted; however, it's possible that she started to assault him out of fury, and he retrained her which caused bruises. Even if he did assault her, that doesn't equate to a murderous act later.
My take on tragic events like this is that when an unlucky unusual thing happens to an unusual (star/actor) person, it becomes double-disbelief, (however, subconsciously). Things like this do happen to people, but we don't happen to read about them.
I find your thought processes very difficult to follow and non-linear.
You say you focussed on my last sentence because it's "a summary of the entire debate: criminal investigations being conducted." What?
Yet it was in response to your saying ""If people took a step back and put into perspective, you'd see an ongoing script (plot twist and turns intact) being written about how and why she drowned."
You then went into Wagner not having been indicted or arrested, and something about other people being investigated. Neither of which have anything to do with this. A criminal investigation is a criminal investigation. They don't always end up with someone being arrested or indicted. It all depends on if their findings are enough evidence to take to trial, or not.
I then pointed out this is the same way detectives approach cases.
Now you turn this into ... hell, I don't know what! Way too murky for me. Sorry, I need clear and linear in order to have a meaningful discussion.
One of the detectives (whose job it is to make such observations, based on education and experience) said her body had fresh bruises that looked like those left as the result an assault. I know one was on her neck, which can't be explained by her slipping and falling, or trying to get into the dinghy.
Interesting how you continue to avoid any of Wagner's strange behavior and prevarications.
As non-linear and difficult as I am, I am saying put it to rest and accept that we will not have the conclusion or full-story that you want, regardless of how many times you attempt to sort out the puzzle. Other posters have conveyed the same thing in their own way.
And again, if it was not Natalie Wood, this whodunit-derangement and analysis would not be occupying so much of your time and energy. Take care.
You wait for them?? Even after you know for certain they're nowhere on the boat? You refuse to have the captain even turn on the search light to look for them, or call the harbour patrol and coast guard for help? To call anyone for help?
Instead you insist you and the captain sit down, drink scotch, and wait? Until 2.5 hours later?
Since you expressed interest in hearing from the detectives, here are a few quotes from them I've just come across, looking for something else:
"The actress’s body had fresh bruises and, according to one detective, she “looked like the victim of an assault.”"
"“We have not been able to prove this was a homicide,” Detective Ralph Hernandez told 48 Hours. “And we haven’t been able to prove that this was an accident, either. The ultimate problem is we don’t know how she ended up in the water.”"
"“I haven’t seen him tell the details that match all the other witnesses in this case,” Lt. Corina told 48 Hours. “I think he’s constantly changed his story a little bit. And his version of events just don’t add up.”"
In a podcast or something else I saw or listened to recently, there was one or more detective speaking, but who knows where I heard that.
People mix water and alcohol alla time.
shareThe captain has changed his story twice. First he went along with Wagner's version. Remember, Wagner was his employer, and they'd all known one another for years.
Then, years later, he changed it to reveal more, and he hasn't changed it since then. Which is consistent with confessing the truth.
I read about the fight over Walken, but have never before heard he told the skipper to leave her in the water. Was that testimony from the skipper?
shareThe skipper has publicly claimed he heard arguing and noises coming from the deck and went up later to check. Wagner then told him Natalie (and the dinghy) were missing. The skipper wanted to radio for help, but Wagner told him to wait, which they did.
Years before, Natalie's sister Lana already claimed the skipper told her that when he came up he saw Natalie in the water crying for help and Wagner arguing back. They supposedly left her there until she stopped making any sounds. And then there are accounts from witnesses from 1981 who said they had heard arguing and noises coming from the boat and then a woman crying for help and one or two men replying back.
Now I'm a skeptic and don't believe any of these accounts are 100% correct, but it's interesting these accounts all fit each other, but not Wagner's story which has changed throughout the years.
The coroner who performed the autopsy wrote a book on the famous cases he worked on. I have the book and will re-read the chapter on Natalie Wood.
shareNoguchi determined she died from drowning and hypothermia, which no doubt is correct. But he really didn't have any good reason to conclude she probably slipped on the dinghy and fell into the water. The only basis for that was the fact that she was drunk and that the dinghy was missing.
shareI just read it. Wood had bruises on here legs and wrists consistent with the metal brackets on the dinghy. There were also fingernail scratches on the dinghy. She untied the dinghy and then fell in and was taken inland by the funnel winds. She tried to get on board the dinghy but was dragged down by the heavy jacket she was wearing which had become waterlogged.
She did cry out and one witness heard something but it was too dark to see anything. There was a naval officer situated close by Wagner's boat and he did not hear her cry out. Why?? There was loud music from a party onshore so more than likely Wagner and Walken just did not hear here cry out much like the naval officer.
Both Wagner and Walken were examined by forensic specialists - no bruises or scatches of any kind.
The only question is why was she trying to get off the yacht at that time of night (early morning) - that we will never know it seems.
She got in a fight with her husband and was being dramatic. She was drunk, got in the dinghy to ride to shore or another boat, and probably stood up or something and fell out. I do not think anyone killed her.
shareShe was known for storming off after a fight and wanting to be alone. She picked the wrong place and time to do it.
shareYep, I do the same thing. Sometimes, especially when drinking, you'll never win an argument and walking away is the best thing to do. However, if you can't swim it might not have been the smartest idea.
shareShe was not known for going off in a dinghy, quite the opposite actually.
And according to Wagner, they didn't even have a fight.
She was not known for going of in a dinghy? Is that what people do when they are mad? Go off in a dinghy?
shareThat's my point. Especially if they have a fear of water and would never get into a dinghy by themselves at night with rough sea and weather.
shareUnfortunately. all this drama about Natalie eludes me. I seriously loved this chick, but this whole soap opera is over the top. Love Nat Wood.
shareI don't consider it a soap. A woman died tragically and the man who last saw her can't keep his story straight.
shareSo spend your $$ and your time and your spirit over Nat Wood's death.
I've always been bothered by it but - the problems of rich people !
My money??? I'm just having one discussion about it on a movie bosrd. Why are you wasting your time and energy on that?
shareI'm not. I just thought you might be overly invested with NW.
She was one of the prettiest women I remember from my youth.
Sorry for intruding on a movie bosrd
You have no clue how much "invested" I am in this case. One thread on one message board, that's it. I have no particular interest in either Wood or Wagner. They're just two of many actors to me.
shareShe used the dinghy by herself quite often. In fact she used it twice on the day she died - the last time being around 5 pm when it would have been dark for a late November day. This nonsense that she was terrified of the water is fantasy created by her crazy sister. It was a tragic accident much like the drowning of Dennis Wilson - alcohol and water don't mix.
shareNo, she went to shore in the dinghy with the skipper the day before, which was actually after an argument with Wagner. She had never used it before by herself. She couldn't operate it.
Not true, Mitch, there's an tv interview in which she describes her fear of water. I've seen it with my own eyes.
Yeah, a tragic accident surely explains the lies Wagner told...
Wagner had a bad temper, and he was losing it. She left the boat because of it the previous night, with the captain, and spent the night in a hotel room to get away from him.
They were all drunk. That made Wagner's temper even worse. To the point where he smashed a bottle of wine on the table in front of them out of anger. I don't know about you, but I'd sure as h*ll want to get away from someone like that, and on a yacht, there are few options. I don't call that being dramatic, I call that being sensible.
But it seems unlikely that she'd get into the dinghy, given her terror of water, in nothing but a flannel nightgown, socks, and a down jacket, if she'd intended on going to shore or another boat. Unless she was so fearful of Wagner that night, that overrode her fear of the water and how she (wasn't) dressed.
There were supposedly scratches on the dinghy, but he does not know if they were caused by her fingernails. He didn't even check her nails for any material. And really, scratches from fingernails on a rubber boat???
So witnesses heard a woman crying for help and a man shouting back while there was a party going on, but Wagner heard absolutely nothing???
"Both Wagner and Walken were examined by forensic specialists - no bruises or scatches of any kind. "
So what? Who says Natalie physically fought with either of them?
The question is rather why she would go into a dinghy, when she had a fear of water? It's one thing to be on a yacht, it's quite another thing to step into a little rubber boat all by yourself at night.
I suppose, depending on the type of rubber, there could be fingernail scratches on it from her fighting for her life to get into it. But it is odd the coroner didn't take scrapings from under her nails.
If the fight with Wagner in their stateroom escalated to the point where she was very fearful and felt she had to escape and quickly, I can see this happening, especially as she too was drunk.
The real problems are Wagner's hiding how angry he was that night, and preventing the captain from turning on the search lights, or calling harbour patrol, once he realised she was missing from the boat.
That must've been real low quality rubber.
If it had been someone else, I would think it was possible she had gone off in the dinghy. But Natalie had stated she was afraid of the water and she had never gone into the dinghy by herself. I can see her fleeing the room and asking the others for help, not going into a dinghy late at night in a nightgown while the sea and the weather were rough.
But yes, the inconsistencies in Wagner's own story and the other accounts that seem to corroborate each other is what's really suspicious.
Not necessarily low quality, it could have been soft enough (think like vinyl) to have scratches in it left by someone desperately fighting for their life to get into it.
I understand what you're saying, but she was very drunk, and if she was also very afraid, I could see her feeling an urgent need to get away overcoming her fear of the water, combined with the alcohol temporarily obscuring the danger.
I'm reading the updated coroner's report and investigation now. What's interesting is that once Noguchi was made aware of a consultation report on the case by a Paul Miller (he was a Los Angeles senior medical examiner’s investigator and ocean accidents specialist), he wrote in his book Coroner:
“When Paul Miller’s report on the real facts of the death of Natalie Wood arrived, I read it and decided not to release the document to the press. It added details the media would only call ‘gory’ and ‘sensational.’”
WTH does that mean?
The skipper seems to believe she didn't get into the dinghy as she had never taken it out before by herself under any circumstances day or night. She didn't know how to operate it and was deadly afraid of deep water. I think she was ready to leave, but was planning to go with the skipper as she had done before. Which makes me think he witnessed more than he's telling.
I guess Noguchi believes Miller's report added nothing to his own findings except explicit details. I don't know the details of Miller's report, though.
It looks like she never did get into the dinghy. The motor's switch was in the off position, gear was in neutral, and the oars were tied down.
Hmm, I wonder if she did ask the captain to take her to shore again? Or called to him, asking him to or something? It's possible he witnessed more than he's still willing to say.
Here's the part before what I quoted about Noguchi and Miller's report:
"In his 1983 book, “Coroner,” Dr. Noguchi said he gave Paul [Miller] specific instructions to “examine the stern of the Wagners’ yacht for any disturbance, or evidence of violence, that the police might have missed … (and) check the dinghy for any sign of a struggle.”"
So whatever Miller discovered, it appears it had to do with something he found on the yacht and/or dinghy. But I can't imagine what he could have found that Noguchi thought the press would call "gory" and "sensational." Particularly gory. Gory involves gore.
The "gory" details in Miller's report seem to be a description of Natalie's last moments and how she sustained her injuries. Unpleasant to read, but not "gory", in my opinion.
What's also possible, of course, is that after Natalie entered the water and she cried for help, Wagner untied the dinghy so she could help herself back to shore. According to witnesses a man did shout back he was going to get her out. It would also fit Noguchi's conclusions about some of her injuries.
Do you have a link to it? I tried to find the report but no luck.
I had another thought. According to the captain, he found Wagner at the back of the boat, next to where the dinghy had been moored, looking flustered and upset. What if Wood left their stateroom, after putting on her jacket, intending to find the captain to again take her ashore, but Wagner followed her out and either briefly struggled with her and she fell in, or possibly pushed her, again out of anger and part of the escalated argument.
He could have untied the dinghy and pushed it out towards her, not wanting her to die of course, but that being the most he was willing to do to help her, thinking she'd at least be able to get in it. Even if she couldn't operate it, she wouldn't die.
That would explain her being outside, dressed as she was, and not voluntarily getting into the dinghy or untying it. It'd also explain Wagner's coverup stories to divert suspicion from himself. Similar to your scenario.
I have my opinion on how she ended up in the water, but it's mere speculation. She could've slipped, he could've pushed her. I do believe it happened during an argument.
But yeah, I was thinking he untied the dinghy after she fell into the water and she was still crying for help. I don't think he was that desperate to save her, though, otherwise he would've taken other measures.
The posts are getting too small!
So Walken was in on the cover up ??
shareNot according to any witness. Maybe he heard the arguments, but decided it was none of his business. The skipper claimed he was asleep when he went to check on him. However, it does seem Walken did not reveal to authorities that there had been an argument between him and Wagner. And he insists it was an accident while he didn't even witness anything.
shareInterestingly, in one of the videos I watched today, it said Walken has now corroborated the captain's story. Not sure how. There weren't any details given.
shareI think it might refer to the argument with the wine bottle, but I'm not sure.
shareI listened to a podcast with the detective stating this. He was the or a detective on the newest investigation.
All he said was Walken has now corroborated certain details of the captain's story, but couldn't divulge what they were because they were holding back not only that info, but other info. I assume it's the usual sorts of thing when they hold back info that isn't publicly known so they can verify or eliminate any potential witnesses.
It looks that way. It appears Wagner gathered the captain and Walken together and insisted they all tell the same story.
If he believed Wagner that it was an accident (and it probably was, in some form), and Wagner would for sure be the suspect, why wouldn't he agree to it? Wood was dead, no matter what.
The only thing Walken was guilty of was trying to get Natalie into bed.
shareI don't think he had a thing to do with her death, if that's what you mean.
She and Walken may or may not have been having an affair. The captain says they were laughing and flirting, so maybe.
Surprisingly, I just found out today, there were two coast guards who made a report that night that Wagner and Walken were having an affair. I haven't yet been able to find out who called in that report, and why.
Oh sure, I'm just speculating too. Thinking it over and speculating on which scenario best fits the facts and makes the most sense.
I think it was without question related to the argument, and because he was still very angry, and drunk, didn't take the steps he should have done, and probably would have done, had he not been drunk.
Are you on your phone? The posts are shrinking, but still not too bad on my computer.
Two or more witnesses in nearby boats heard her calling for help, and a man's voice responding.
The lack of bruises or scratches on Wagner means nothing, except there was no altercation between them where Wood fought him.
It's obvious why she wanted to get off the yacht. Wagner was drunk, very angry and had become violent.
The night before she'd left the boat as well, asking the captain to take her ashore and spend the night in a hotel, so it's a reasonable assumption she was trying to get away from him that night as well. She'd retired to their stateroom, and gotten into her nightgown, possibly put on the wool socks as preparation for sleep too.
Later she put on the down jacket, and possibly the socks.
Seems obvious to me something very bad happened in that stateroom that caused her to want to get away from Wagner so quickly that she didn't again ask the captain to take her to shore to a hotel that night as well.
But why would Wagner prevent the captain from turning on the boat's search light to try to find her? And why did he at first deny there being any argument, and later admit he was so angry he smashed a bottle of wine on the table in front of them?
What would you do if you were on a boat and someone was so p!ssed off at you he smashed a bottle of wine on the table?
What a horrible story :(
Yes, it is very interesting that the accounts of those in the nearby boats match what the skipper is now saying, and does not match Wagner's.
Do you know offhand how Wagner's story has changed? I wasn't aware it had.
I don't remember exactly all the details that changed. But he first claimed there hadn't been any argument that evening just a lively political discussion, while a few years back he said he admitted he had an argument with Walken. Back in 1981 he told police he thought Natalie had taken off in the dinghy, while now he claims she went to tie the dinghy because it kept slamming against the yacht.
The dinghy was found a mile away from where her body was found, by the way.
I watched a few videos on this last night to refresh my memory. Right, first he said no argument, just lively political discussion. Then he wrote a memoir and said there was an argument, and he was so angry, he broke a bottle of wine on the table in front of Walken, Wood, and perhaps the captain too (not sure on that).
About the dinghy, it was rubber. Doesn't seem like a rubber dinghy could make all that much bothersome sound hitting against the side of a boat. I also remember something about bottles of wine in the dinghy rolling around, but don't know who said that.
In any event, the fact that he prevented the captain from turning on the boat's search lights to look for her, after he realised she wasn't on the boat, is very telling.
Yes, you're right about the lights. That was also an interesting detail.
The captain also said the dinghy would've been tied with two ropes and that Natalie would definitely not have gone to fix it herself.
There's just no good reason for Wagner's account being so weird and inconsistent unless he knows more about what happened to her. I'm not accusing him of murder, but I do believe he's witholding information. Multiple accounts say that the two of them had a fight, but it's obvious he doesn't want people to know that was the case.
I think it's a certainty she didn't go out there to fix the dinghy. She went out there, putting on her down jacket first, to get away from Wagner, as a result of the argument that had continued and most likely escalated.
I agree, I don't think he murdered her, but I do think she died as a result of his (and perhaps the captain's too) criminal neglect. They were all drunk, he was angry, and probably out of that anger, he decided to not turn on the search lights to look for her. If he had, she'd still be alive because there was still time. So IMO, he is responsible for her death out of criminal neglect, and that's something he has to live with.
Yes, at the very least Wagner neglected to help her after he knew she had gone into the water. (Lana's account of the skipper's story seems to suggest he did so on purpose to punish her). He didn't call for help (not even contacting the coast guard) until after the cries had died down (the time mentioned by witnesses). That's seriously culpable conduct.
shareAgreed.
I'm reading that they all returned to the boat, very drunk (so drunk the manager of the restaurant where they'd been, requested a harbour master or similar to follow them to make sure they got back on board safely), between 10:00-10:30 PM.
In the initial interview with Wagner, he said they'd returned, continued drinking in the main cabin (he, Wood, Walken, and the captain), and then "they realised that Mrs Wood was missing and also the Zodiac [dinghy] was missing. This was around 12 o'clock midnight."
It was an hour and a half later, at 1:30 AM that the restaurant manager overheard Wagner's call to the harbour patrol, so that point in time is fixed by an unbiased party.
What's dicey is the captain (and no doubt Wagner) said they'd presumed, once they discovered she and the dinghy were missing, she'd taken it and headed back to shore and to the bar/restaurant.
He must be guilty of her death because she was "Natalie Wood", star.
shareWho says that?
shareDue to the strong pattern of it. Suspicion of murder is usually what people become preoccupied and obsessed with, especially suicide, when a very famous actor/ entertainer dies, compared to the death of a regular person. Not to say that Wagner isn't possibly (indirectly) responsible or not, but it's the neverending "we left a stone unturned" investigative discussion 40 years later.
shareYep, we all want answers, even though it affects us not one iota. We have a hard time dealing with "not knowing." A very human reaction, though.
shareI know. It's about (painful) acceptance more than anything.
shareinterview with one of the detectives
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KWpFDLHb3w
Yeah, maybe you should stop making assumptions about other people. I have an opinion about this case, just like I have an opinion on many other murder/mysterious death cases that involve "regular" people. And if you actually read any of the discussions I had with Cat, you'll see it's based on more than them being celebrities.
shareIt's not assumptions since I read about it in black & white, and I am referring to people in general. You, personally, can have opinions and ruminate all you wish, but from a legal standpoint, you'd be hard-pressed to find a prosecutor or D.A.. touch this case, and a defense lawyer would have it dismissed in no time.
When you speak of assumptions, those are also what's being used to accuse Wagner of something. We can assume and analyze all we want, but for every "maybe", there is also a "probably not" to counteract it.
That skipper Dennis Davern would be destroyed on the witness stand. Lana Wood also told police back in 1981 that Wagner was a good husband and would never hurt Natalie. They both wrote books and seem in need of money. Let the woman rest.
shareI think that's a pretty nasty thing to say about her sister. She doesn't have to move on at all. And she's admitted she didn't want to believe at first that Wagner had anything to do with her death.
I guess Wagner also needed money when he suddenly changed his story in his own book...
Lana Wood's career as an actress never panned out. Natalie was supporting her financially at the time of her death in 1981. Lana had nothing bad to say about Wagner in her 1984 book. Wagner cut her off financially and then the bitterness towards himself started. Wagner has been involved with a number of women in his life some famous such as Tina Sinatra. His first wife died just a few months ago. No one has stated that he was ever abusive to women.
I think it is unfair for Lana to try and characterize Wagner as someone similar to OJ Simpson. The facts just don't back that up. I am not saying he is perfect and he should have been more open about what happened on the night of Wood's death.
Wagner and Wood's daughter has ended up a heroin addict - I am sure that having her aunt accuse her father of killing her mother has contributed to her addiction. It is time for Lana to stopped obsessing over her sister's tragic death. It was an accident and no one will ever be charged.
You do realise the case was reopened and investigated as recently as 2012? So Lana wasn't the only one looking at the suspicious circumstances of her sister's death after all these years; the law was too.
And Wagner's career plummeted after Hart to Hart.
It's only been recently that Lana has come out and said she thinks Wagner murdered her sister. So no, that had nothing to do with their daughter's heroin addiction. Sorry to hear about that, didn't know.
The police re-opened the case because Davern changed his story after he wrote a book. The investigation has gone nowhere. Interesting to hear what Wood's other daughter Natasha Gregson has to say on her mother's death and her stepfather Wagner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOQ3olFz7m0
Wagner has always been considered a person of interest. Davern's new statements and the new autopsy report just re-affirmed it. Not true that the investigation went nowhere. They found new witnesses who corroborrated Davern's story and earlier witness accounts. You can't expect condemning evidence to suddenly pop up after 40 years. What they want is to talk to Wagner, which he refuses.
sharePart of me wishes they would charge Wagner and have a trial. It would be a fiasco.
shareNope. The police reopened the case in 2011. Davern's co-authored book didn't come out until 2014.
If by gone nowhere you mean last year Wagner being formally declared a person of interest, Walken corroborating aspects of Davern's story, new witnesses, and Noguchi's original cause of death by accidental drowning being overturned and changed to "drowning and other undetermined factors," okay then.
I don't find anything unexpected or interesting in what Natasha had to say. Wagner has been her father since she was one years old. Of course she's going to believe and defend him, of course she's going to want to believe and defend him. Who wouldn't, in her position? The same is still true, as far as we know, even with OJ Simpson's kids, and that was nowhere near as murky as this.
Goodbye Natalie, Goodbye Splendour was released in hardcover in 2009. The 2014 book was the paperback:
https://www.amazon.com/Goodbye-Natalie-Splendour-Marti-Rulli/dp/1597776394/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1556307091&sr=1-1-catcorr
Regardless, obviously they didn't reopen the case 2 years later, solely based on his book.
It's worth noting that police gave him two or more polygraph tests, and he passed them. Meanwhile Wagner has refused to even talk to detectives 8 times now, never mind take a polygraph.
But it's not unfair to paint Lana like a golddigger who doesn't even care about her sister? You can't hold it against someone for initially not wanting to believe a family member might be responsible.
Wagner brought it upon himself by lying about it.
Well, I say it wasn't an simple accident, so I guess Lana can go on obsessing about it...
I don't think I ever said that right now there's enough evidence to prosecute anyone, so again you're making assumptions.
shareNo, certain people do want him prosecuted, so it's not making "assumptions". When I post, it doesn't mean I am saying it's you, you, you who intends to do or concludes something. We are discussing the matter as a whole.
shareThen you should make that clear in your reply. You did say, "You, personally, can have opinions and ruminate all you wish, but from a legal standpoint, you'd be hard-pressed to find a prosecutor or D.A.. touch this case, and a defense lawyer would have it dismissed in no time."
So you read in black and white that people said they believe Wagner did something to Natalie Wood because they're celebrities, huh?
She was having an affair with Walken and Wagner got mad and killed her.
shareOr she walked in on Walken and Wagner having an affair (sex), which was more than enough to freak her out. That possibility needs to be considered, though people, naturally, dont' wish to hear that. I do find it kind of odd that 3 people: wife./husband and friend share a cruise together in close quarters.
But, that doesn't mean anyone "killed" anyone, regardless of who was having sex with whom.
and he left her to die from hypothermia.
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You dont' know--or can assume that-- unless you were there or have a video. He may have thought she was sobbing and pouting on the deck and would come back in when she was good and ready. It does not mean he heard her screams for help. And even if he did hear her screams, it doesn't mean he assumed she was in the water.
So, let's re-enact the scene as a test: you get into a dingy while I wait in different areas of the boat to see if I can hear you scream "help me, I am drowning"
Funny, but no, it's not the same as you assuming why people have a certain opinion. I'm basing my opinion on witness accounts, one of whom was actually on the boat. It's exactly the reason authorities now consider him a person of interest.
shareI certainly dont' see the authorities doing anything about it excepting questioning him, not putting him in jail pending bail for "suspicion of murder", or other. Maybe those witnesses are not too credible according to the authorities with the details of their testimony which we dont' have privy to.
shareActually, the authorities have said those witnesses are credible. Their accounts are actually the reason, together with the new autopsy report, why they've stated that they consider Wagner a person of interest even more than before. They've concluded that he was the last person to see her alive and that his account is inconsistent. They want to talk to him, that's all they can do. There isn't magically going to be enough evidence to prosecute anyone after almost 40 years.
share[deleted]
Brandon Lee...a weird way to go!
shareBob Crane of Hogan's Heroes.
share