MovieChat Forums > General Discussion > A Clockwork Orange (1971).

A Clockwork Orange (1971).


What do we all think of this world-wide popular early 70s controversial black comedy futuristic sci-fi classic dystopian thriller, based on the novel by Anthony Burgess and directed by late legendary filmmaker Stanley Kubrick and starring Malcolm McDowell (who also starred in "If..." (1968), "Oh Lucky Man" (1973) and the notorious "Caligula" (1979) among others) in leading role?

Also, and this is another controversial aspect of it, besides its disturbing scenes and nature, did anyone felt concerned at the fact that the movie tried to make audience sympathize with its lead character of Alex De Large who was a r**ist AND a murderer, because of that unfair governmental experiment that he endured in an attempt to be "cured" of his criminal behaviour?

Or did you think that, perhaps, whilst there was a little of that, it is nowhere near as simple and is a more complicated matter than that, and in a true sense of the word and by rules and laws of black comedy and surreal cinema, there are no "good" people in the traditional sense here either, even if of course none of it "excuses" any of his actions, and we actually ARE meant to be disturbed and confronted by it, even if at the end none of his victims exact revenge on him either, and the movie sort of maybe tried to say how in our own ways everyone could be good and bad sometimes at the same time, or we are meant to see it through those "love the sinner, hate the sin" or even "criminal more/criminal less" kind of prism lenses? I kinda thought so. (You won't find much moralizing here like you see on the internet though, that's for sure, as the movie invites audiences to make up their OWN minds here.)

Oh and yeah it really IS a perfect 10/10 masterpiece and possibly my very favorite film of ALL time. Although I love and consider perfect several of Kubrick's other films too.

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Much ado about nothing.

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You didn't like it?

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I could lodge it in the [Most Boring Movie Thread] without a second thought.

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Really, why was it so bad to you?

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I would imagine "Caligula" (1979), in its "close to being uncut" version, will not be your cup of tea, either?

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Yes. All that build up in the Penthouse magazine and it was caca. We'd driven to NYC on vacation and I talked the wife into seeing it there on the porno district at that time. We left after they chopped off that guy's ding dong and fed it to the dogs.

"That's it! I'm leaving, Cully, with you, or, without you!"

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We left after they chopped off that guy's ding dong and fed it to the dogs.

I watched it today - don't remember this scene

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They may have cut it out. There was big hoopla over it at the time.

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I saw this when I was sixteen and don't remember much about it. I need to see it again obviously. I don't think I would rate it 10/10 though. I enjoyed other films by Kubrick a lot more.

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My one and only complaint is I wish it would have ended with Burgess's novel ending as opposed to Hollywood's.

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And, if I may be so bold, what was that ending?

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The novel's final chapter had Alex meeting one of his former delinquent buddies (Pete, IIRC), who's now married, employed, and either has a child or one on the way. The guy's clearly outgrown all the teenage hell-raising he and Alex used to get into together. The encounter gets Alex reflecting that those things really don't appeal to him anymore, and while the book doesn't go further, it's clear that Little Alex is headed out of adolescence into a responsible maturity.

The book was originally published two ways. In the UK, intact with all 21 chapters. In the US, the publisher would only print it with the final chapter removed. Kubrick's movie is basically faithful to the US version.

There are a lot of people who prefer the novel's ending, but don't count me among them. Kubrick's movie presents you with a choice -- (a) Alex, law abiding but robbed of his free will; or (b) Alex, with his free will intact but violent and evil. Which is better; a good creature who can hardly be called human, or an evil but fully human man? Is the cure worse than the disease? Or is the treatment Alex got, if not an ideal cure, perhaps still a fitting punishment for his sins?

Some serious questions to ponder. But in the book ... oh, it turns out it was just a phase Alex was going through. He just grew out of it. Boys will be boys. And Burgess acknowledged in his foreward to the "restored" version of his book (US version with all 21 chapters) that (a) Alex's transition into maturity had absolutely nothing to do with any of his prior experiences; and (b) he wrote the book with 21 chapters, as much as any other reason, so that it would have 3 parts of 7 chapters each. Numerology trumps good storytelling for some, I guess. But frankly, I think the US publisher made the right call. Burgess was too in love with his story to see that the final chapter damaged it, and it's part of an editor's job to give impartial and objective feedback.

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In his novel , Burgess had a different ending - Alex does revert to his old ways , but he comes across one of his old " droogs" who has reformed , married and had children . Alex loses his desire and enjoyment of violence and he decides to reform and turn his life around..

Sadly , American audiences , even way back then preferred the " darker " ending - and , of course, Kubrick went that direction.
I agree with Anthony Burgess

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I loved it at 17, loved it at 35... Great movie about behavior, motivation, correction with public-government-science-religion.

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So most importantly, and in, what I would like to fancifully call it, this "digital age of modern outrage", does anyone want to DEBUNK the idea that the movie encourages us to sympathize with its lead character Alex De Large?

To be honest, whether or not real justice will be served put aside, I highly DOUBT that a man of his caliber in real life in any era even a futuristic one would encourage sympathy from civilized people knowing what he has done. Even if in reality, SADLY, this might not stop him, and many might think he should be put to life imprisonment or death sentence for his actions.

But I know of course its a movie, but I kind of got the impression that it was more complex than all of that.

And by the way, was it also the film's fault that it was rumored to inspire copycat violence in real life?

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Anyone want to reply to my last question?

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> [D]oes anyone want to DEBUNK the idea that the movie encourages us to sympathize with its lead character Alex

On the contrary, I'd view as highly questionable any attempt at an argument that the movie does not encourage it. Of course it does! The very essence of fiction is to invite the audience to sympathize with the protagonist; to experience the same emotional reactions the POV character does as events happen.

Otherwise, what's the point of doing it *as fiction* -- of writing a story about character X, exploring X's experiences, relationships with others, beliefs, etc -- while never expecting or desiring that one's audience should mentally put themselves in X's shoes? The result of such an attempt would be bizarre at best, amusing for all the wrong reasons; and at worst dull and didactic moralizing (certain episodes of Rod Serling's "Twilight Zone" come to mind).

I'll add that there's nothing at all wrong with any of this. To quote Anthony Burgess, since we're talking about A Clockwork Orange, "it is as inhuman to be totally good as it is to be totally evil." Of course a fictional protagonist should have some sympathetic or even admirable features. And this does not mean that an author must endorse evil if the protagonist does evil things. Want to instruct your audience? (Always a risky move -- writers are nowhere near as morally wise as some believe themselves to be, and audiences have an irritating tendency to see through such pretensions.) Have X make a wrong decision for reasons that seem good at the time, then later after some personal growth, reflect back on that decision and understand it was a bad idea -- and have the audience sympathize with X both times. There's some excellent fiction that's gone that route.

And if anyone's wondering, I'll acknowledge that I like seeing Michael Corleone triumph over his enemies. Etc. I also don't associate with Mafia types or do the things they do, etc. And this only means that I'm a sane, moral adult, that's all.

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But he was a ra*ist and a murderer in this one, so how can audiences feel any empathy for a man like that?

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A rapist as a main character is a bit more difficult to imagine. But a murderer? That's nothing. You can go to a lot of trouble to make the murderer appear as a tortured soul with some good in him (e.g., "In Cold Blood"); but that's not necessary. It's enough to make the main character have some rational reason for the murder, like self-preservation ("Breaking Bad").

Even that's not necessary, though. Burgess understood that and acted on it when writing A Clockwork Orange. From his commentary:

"It seems priggish or pollyannish to deny that my intention in writing [A Clockwork Orange] was to titillate the nastier propensities of my readers. My own healthy inheritance of original sin comes out in the book and I enjoyed raping and ripping by proxy. It is the novelist's innate cowardice that makes him depute to imaginary personalities the sins that he is too cautious to commit for himself."

I think there's another factor that has to be combined with this. In Alex's mind, his victims aren't human beings. They're objects for his use. To him, there's no difference between defacing a building with graffiti, or raping a woman, or smashing a car's headlights. But in a funny way, once the viewer accepts the implied invitation to see the world through Alex's eyes, that raped woman becomes an object to the viewer too.

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Well, we all know of course that in A Clockwork Orange, Alex de Large was both.

And given how his victims were innocent people, I don't think him killing them in any way makes him THAT much less a monster, even if a lot of people would rather die than get dishonored and hurt like that, but some people may move on and heal if given the right directions, so it can be complicated sometimes (heck, in some movies, and possibly real life examples as well, the r*pist character may not even be a man sex and gender wise, not that it means that what they do is not wrong mind you - although funny enough, watch one pornographic parody for instance of this film entiteld "Clockwork Orgy" (1995), but they didn't actually call and consider the lead female character and her group a "female r*pist" (I shudder just typing that) either) but yes still a serious issue no doubt about it.

Yes I know that sexual violence is sadly on a lot of levels a more sensitive issue, and possibly has been since humanity first appeared on Earth, throughout history, for reasons both obvious and more complex ones (in a sense that not everyone who only knows what they have heard about it has come across with it personally or delved deeper into it, disturbing and off-putting as it is), but many would argue that physical violence not to mention murder as people lose their lives there, is not all that less a serious issue, and I for one have feared death and being killed in life no less seriously than being a victim of that deed as well.

Maybe its only "nothing" because cinema and media wise, we as human beings in general over time have just managed to NATURALLY get USED to it (its a very long story, of course, but it has history backing it all up), back in the old days like in 1800s, people were scared and freaked out over very little things like a passing train seen on screen in cinema.

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When I was a kid, I witnessed both my parents and people around me being offended by "murder jokes" as well, even if I and others often played with guns and people overall didn't mind that all too much.

And I think that MAYBE "A Clockwork Orange" was in a way saying that ALL forms of violence are wrong and hurtful and should be avoided as much as possible, with r*pe being a serious and disturbing issue as it is, yeah, but not quite the centerpiece like it often is with movies (see "The Accused" (1988) for all but one popular instance) dealing directly with the issue.

Heck, unlike say "I Spit on Your Grave" (1978) and its various variations, in ACO, they don't even get revenge on him for such a deed in painfully related similar manner.

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But back to the original question at hand.

As I said before, I felt that it was somewhat ambiguous and wasn't really meant to appear as simple as us being asked to sympathize with its lead protagonist.

But if anyone else who has seen the movie wants to speculate, that is all fine.

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It was so many years ago. As I recall , though I liked watching the movie , I too was disturbed because I felt Alex was seemingly portrayed in a sympathetic light and I felt that was bullshit.
When I read the novel some years later , Burgess seemed to be writing a dystopian fantasy - a think piece. The novel was much better , but it was highly disturbing.

Now , when you look at what has happened to society and culture it makes your head swim.

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The thing is, such societies and cultures were not necessarily "better" BEFORE either, so what we see nowadays is in many ways a result of the continuous cycle of violence and injustice that plagued humanity since time immemorial.

Heck, back in the cavemen days or hundreds of years ago in history, there were many wrong and hurtful things that had neither social nor legal consequences for the guilty perpetrators and even if there were, they operated on a very different level to what we have TODAY.

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You seem sadly misinformed

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I wonder in what way(s)?

As in, how exactly was society better before, in any parts of the world, than now?

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I cannot make you see what you refuse to see

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