MovieChat Forums > Joker (2019) Discussion > Love when he ... [SPOILERS]

Love when he ... [SPOILERS]


... blew away the motherfuckers on the train. They had that coming. Arthur had suffered one too many beat-downs for no reason, and he'd just had enough. They picked on the wrong guy and paid the price.

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If you think that you are supposed to 'love' that scene and cheer for Arthur, then you're kind of missing the whole point of the movie...

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The point of the movie is that society is cold and uncaring towards those who are most vulnerable and, to a large extent, creates its own problems. There was also the subtext that the rich and privileged benefit at the expense of the regular joes like Arthur. Society is corrupt and evil, basically.

Having said that, I didn’t enjoy this scene because I thought I was supposed to, I enjoyed it because it resonated with me.

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I think you can love what happens to those guys and cheer for Arthur in that particular moment. They savagely beat him, they were almost certainly going to do something horrible to that woman; this was a pattern of evil behaviour from them. When Arthur kills them, I think there's a cathartic release, an enjoyment in the comeuppance they get.

BUT, if somebody left the theatre thinking Arthur's worldview, thoughts, attitudes, actions, etc., were good or laudable, that's missing the point of the film. I also agree that Arthur's reaction to his murders is troubling and bad and an omen of the depths he's about to hit.

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The movie (obviously) sets the viewer up to root for Arthur in that particular scene, sorta like you root for Charles Bronson in "Death Wish." Seriously, did anyone root for the three arrogant phukks?

Later on though you naturally question Arthur's killings, like the burly co-worker who simply stopped over to console him after his mother's death.

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Anybody who physically attacks someone the way it happened in the movie had it coming if they get shot.

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Yup, that was definitely self defense and Joker actually defended that woman from more harassment or even worse.

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To be fair, Arthur should have at least warned them first before shooting.

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Yes, ideally, but he could easily have argued self defence. Which makes me wonder why he didn’t make such an argument when he was on Murray’s show.

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No... that was self defense, the first two anyway.

The third guy, he hunted down... that was his first real delve into the Joker personae.

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The first two were arguably justifiable as self defense. The last guy running away was straight up murder. It's a great scene though because it doesn't necessarily cater to one side. Arthur had the right to defend himself at first but then crosses the line and commits murder in cold blood. It's a chilling scene.

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Great scene.
Like seeing Hannibal Lector suddenly unleash or something.

When he recovered his senses (after the first 2) and chased the guy out of the train, it was like, 'Oh man he just flipped'.

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Amen! Don't fuck with other people.

😎

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I'm wondering how much of that scene was true. After all, the whole thing was from Arthur's perspective and the movie shows he's an unreliable narrator. I think maybe the woman wasn't there after all, but he started antagonizing the guys for no reason, then shot them when they attacked him.

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Well by that logic, the WHOLE MOVIE could have been in his head. And EVERY movie could be in the protagonist's head.
If that were true, what's the point of the movies, and what's the point of watching them? Isn't that over analysis?

I believe it was all happening.

😎

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Ah but he did imagine being in the street and at his mum's bedside with his neighbour Sophie
I thought when he was shooting his attackers it would revert back to him being beaten up.
A similar thought occured to me when he shoots De Niro's caracter

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Okay then.

😎

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There is a possibility it wasn't what happened.
That there was no beating and he truly killed them for not being able "to carry a tune" and then adjusted the scene in his mind to justify his actions.

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That's what makes this film interesting. It's like Inception - you're never sure what is real and what is just in his head.

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They were obviously trying to get the audience on Joker's side at that point in the movie. It's a classic revenge scene; victimized person takes on bad guys and wins. Many movies do this with the first rounds of violence, and then the violence becomes more unjustified. The part of the scene I could not accept was three businessmen harassing a beautiful woman on the subway. I could understand them trying to get her attention or making advances toward her, but harassing her on a subway (e.g. throwing trash at her) does not ring true. If they had those three men harassing a homeless person on the subway, that would make a little more sense.

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