Buyer Beware


In episode 3, it is said that the buyer should beware, i.e. be cautious when buying Scientology's bill of goods.

Well, this needs to be said of all belief systems, religious and otherwise. Once you accept the basic principles, you must accept the consequences of those beliefs and expect the actions that naturally flow from their base tenets.

For example, followers of any religion should consider what it means if their church teaches:

1. Absolute authority of the church. Is criticism even tolerated?

2. Divine infallibility. Is it believed that the head of the organization is infallible? Others in authority?

3. Subservience of the individual to the whole. Is the church more important than its members?

4. Faith is more important than reason. Is reason suspect? Is it the enemy of faith or belief?

5. Children should be indoctrinated and/or the church has more authority as parent than the child's actual parents.

6. The inner workings of the church should be shrouded in secrecy.

7. You should be suspicious of those who have different beliefs. Or worse yet, you should avoid them.

Most religions tick off most of these principles. All are risky propositions.



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Scientology is not a religion (IMO). They only started to call themselves that some time in the 1970s, and adopted some practices like Sunday services and their "clergy" adopting religious garb like the collars priests wear. I don't think that lasted very long, but it was all part of the effort to get 1st Amendment protection and tax exempt status.

Signs of a cult:

Unquestioned faith in the cult leader. Dissent not tolerated.

Fantastical capabilities attributed to the cult leader.

The cult leader lives in splendor while most everyone else lives in poverty.

"Us" vs "Them" mentality. The people in the cult know a truth outsiders can never understand.

Spies everywhere. Cult members can never express an independent thought for fear they will ratted on by a fellow cult member.

I'm sure there are other signs. My point is that we should look at Scientology as a cult, not a religion. A legitimate religion may ask you to make a donation, but will not suck you dry for every cent you have.

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I think there is no useful definition of cult. Many people try to use the word to separate their own belief systems from those they disapprove of.

It is more useful to identify the aspects of (any) belief systems which might come back to bite you in the ass. These qualities are rightfully suspect.

For example, if an entity or belief system advocates that its existence or promotion is more important than its members, it may ask one to sacrifice himself for the benefit of the whole. It implies that it exists outside of its members and has a value in and of itself.

All of the attributes on my list should be warning signs. Any of them can have negative results. And it only takes one to cause problems.

And, as I mentioned, the list applies to any organization, not just religious groups. Fraternal. Military. Governmental. Etc.

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I think there is no useful definition of cult.


Following a person without question, even when they advocate harm.
Not allowing criticism of the leader.
Not being involved in the community, especially with those who don't believe the same things.
Forcing followers to give significant amounts of money and freedom.
Not allowing followers to leave freely.

There are probably other traits which help define a cult.

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This sounds like half the marriages i know.

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50% divorce rate

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The Catholic church also ticks those boxes. All religions are cults. Some just get bigger than others. It doesn't really matter what flavour the poisoned Kool Aid is, the end result will be the same.

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Um, yeah. No. They are not cults. Cults don't allow dissension or their members to casually participate / leave when they want.

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Um, yeah. No? Elegantly put. Islam punishes apostates with death. Not so long ago the Catholic church did exactly the same. Not to mention the little matter of the Inquisition, the witch trials and a colourful assortment of other atrocities inflicted on non or ex-believers by almost every christian faction. Just because they have learned to play nice in the modern age does not change a thing. Scratch the surface of any religion and you will find the same old fear and intolerance just bubbling away, waiting for the right time to burst forth once more.
I repeat: All religions are cults.

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Um, yeah. No? Elegantly put.


I have to keep things simple for simpletons to understand.

Not so long ago the Catholic church did exactly the same.


Not so long ago - in relation to how old the universe is.

Just because they have learned to play nice in the modern age does not change a thing.


So by your "logic" then, since you used to reach into your diaper and play with your sh!t but don't any more, it doesn't change a thing. You still play with your sh!t.

Scratch the surface of any religion and you will find the same old fear and intolerance just bubbling away, waiting for the right time to burst forth once more.


Again, using your "logic", man used to mate with whomever he wanted whenever he wanted. By all definitions, it was rape. So, scratch the surface of any man, and there is a rapist "waiting for the right time to burst forth once more. "

I repeat: All religions are cults.


Only if you define them using hatred, immaturity and bigotry.

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I completely agree with this definition of a cult.

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I disagree that

Most religions tick off most of these principles. All are risky propositions.


That hasn't been my experience. But yes, it does happen, especially in fundamentalist type religions. To say "most" is disingenuous.

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Until the IRS stops recognizimg them as a religion that is what they are.

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I stick by my assertion. The list contains 7 attributes. I think that if you review all of the churches and religious organizations in the US (and elsewhere), you will find that most of them hit at least 4 of those items.

But it only takes 1 hit on that list to signify an organization that should be suspect. None of those attributes are good things. Why? Because their logical extensions are harmful to people.

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[deleted]

I love how Scientology's rep is so bad now that the "church" itself, and its invariably disguised apologists like the OP here, have been reduced to the argument "But ALL religions are corrupt and weird and bad!" That's really not much of a defense, is it? And in terms of corruption, Scientology has packed more abuses of power into a shorter span of existence than any other "religion" (apart from comparatively miniscule cults like Jim Jones' church) in history.

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I'm confused. Who said "But ALL religions are corrupt and weird and bad!"??

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I disagree. Only a few of the major religions have what you've listed, and it is quite obvious that they are pretty sh!tty.

I think what you are doing is confusing "religion" with individual churches. Christianity isn't just the Catholic religion. It is Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, UCC and even the guy who on Sundays has a group of people come over and meet in his pole barn and worship Christ.

You'll find that the ones which don't accept criticism are the ones without any structure in which a flawed individual was allowed to proceed unchecked because he spread lies and manipulated people for his own power.

That has nothing to do with religion.

5. Children should be indoctrinated


Here's the thing with this part. If my wife and I go to church on Sunday and leave our children at home, what are we teaching them? That she and I deserve to be saved by Christ, but they don't? Even waiting for them to become adults before they start their own faith journey means they learn that there are times in their lives they aren't important enough to walk with God.

I don't think a person has to be religious to be a good person. They can learn morals and compassion without a religion. But, the generally accepted morals and compassion are the basics of Christianity and most religions. So, in addition to us teaching them morals and compassion at home, people send their children to religious schools, or Sunday school, or have them just be part of the worship with everyone.


All are risky propositions.


You can say that about ALL organizations.

All organizations are made up of people. People are imperfect, therefore the organizations are imperfect. When you put your faith in people, you will be disappointed if you do so blindly.

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Yes, I am confusing religion with individual churches to some degree. And I think you agree with that since you said that even the guy who has people over to his pole barn is a religion of sorts.

If you leave your children at home when you go to church you are teaching them that:

1. The minds of children are not equipped to make metaphysical decisions.
2. They have plenty of time before they have to make value decisions (that are often presumed to be lifelong.)
3. You respect them because you are not telling them what to believe and, instead, you will expose them to as many religions (and atheism) as possible when they are old enough to grasp philosophical concepts. And you will suggest that they use their minds to make decisions based upon the data they have garnered.
4. They don't have to grapple with scary or imposing questions about the nature of life or metaphysical suppositions until they are old enough to fully understand them.
5. Telling children what to believe is indoctrination. This should only be done for pragmatic reasons--like "don't touch fire", though even that command can be demonstrated as of value for even a five year old.

I did say the list can be applied to any organization.

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Yes, I am confusing religion with individual churches to some degree.


And therefore you are wrong.

1. The minds of children are not equipped to make metaphysical decisions.


They also aren't equipped for calculus, yet we teach them how to add, subtract....

In other words, you start them on their journey.

2. They have plenty of time before they have to make value decisions (that are often presumed to be lifelong.)


If you have children, then you know this is wrong. That is, unless your children are sh!t-heads and you don't care. You need to teach your children from day one. They need to learn to share their toys. They need to learn how to express their anger with words rather than hitting/biting/spiting. They need to learn how to determine right from wrong - and if you don't start them on their journey early, they grow up to be azzholes.

3. You respect them because you are not telling them what to believe and, instead, you will expose them to as many religions (and atheism) as possible when they are old enough to grasp philosophical concepts. And you will suggest that they use their minds to make decisions based upon the data they have garnered.


A - Who says you won't do that if you send your children to a religious school? Most people don't live in a remote area where they don't have TV or internet. They are going to learn. Schools teach about other religions. Your bias is telling you that they don't.

B - I seriously doubt you have children and/or you had a very closed off life. I remember my parents talking politics with my older siblings at the supper table. They didn't always agree, and sometimes I was bored and just left. But, my parents didn't insult my intelligence and think that I couldn't understand some complex subjects if they broke them down. As I got older, they didn't have to break them down as much.

Same thing with my children now - especially with this election. There were so many lies they heard and I wasn't going to insult them by thinking they weren't smart enough to understand deep, philosophical ideas even though they are 14 & 11.

4. They don't have to grapple with scary or imposing questions about the nature of life or metaphysical suppositions until they are old enough to fully understand them.


I just made this point with my 14 year old son last night. I told him that if at age 4 he asked me where babies came from, I'd have given him a different answer than I would now. But, I most certainly would have given him an answer that didn't involve a stork.

You really underestimate children. They aren't nearly as stupid as you think they are. And, it would be stupid of you or any parent to never speak to them in mature tones until they are "old enough to fully understand" because who knows when that will be? 15? 25? 35? 55?

5. Telling children what to believe is indoctrination. This should only be done for pragmatic reasons--like "don't touch fire", though even that command can be demonstrated as of value for even a five year old.


Again, your bias is showing. You assume that no one is ever allowed to ask questions. Some churches don't - those are the ones which are cults. But most do. It's how we learn. It's how we teach.

You must not view the world with open eyes, because the Pope is constantly answering questions about the faith. Why would he answer questions if they weren't asked? And, I don't mean questions from non-believers. I'm talking questions from Catholics.

I never try to force people to believe. I don't mind talking about faith and try to answer whatever questions are asked as long as they are asked with a desire to learn. I don't like people who do try to force people to believe. I think they do more harm than good.

The other side of that same coin is I also don't like people who feel the need to trash religions and/or people who believe, mostly because they do so with a lack of knowledge (without wanting to actually learn) / extreme bias (which they aren't willing to let go of.)

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Your math example is ridiculous.

AND as far as the pope goes, perhaps you can ask him why all those priests were moved around from parish to parish and allowed to continue to molest/rape/harm children. The church does not talk about those things and it discourages members from talking about them. Payouts signed in secret, etc.

Of course you'd give a 14 yr old a different answer than a 4 year old while talking about where babies come from. Do you even know what metaphysics is? One definition is 'that it is beyond physical": relating to the transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses. Not many 11 and 14 yr old children have the experience or the intellect to have a proper discussion about metaphysics.

No schools do not teach religions. They teach religious tolerance.

Religion is stupid. Religion is toxic. Religion is bad for everyone.

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[deleted]

Your math example is ridiculous.


Care to elaborate?

AND as far as the pope goes, perhaps you can ask him why all those priests were moved around from parish to parish and allowed to continue to molest/rape/harm children.


That certainly has been a black eye upon the Church. I think those who covered up the abuses are just as guilty as those who did the abusing, and should be punished just as severely.

As to why the cover up? For the same, wrong reasons as the cover up’s by schools and other organizations. They all, stupidly, thought moving the abuser would end the problem because it was now someone else’s problem. They didn’t understand the nature of the sexual predator.

The only thing which has kept me in the Catholic faith is the knowledge that the abuses/cover ups were no different than anywhere else, and that a child is ten times more likely to be abused by someone involved in their school than in their church. This is the case since not all children who go to church go to school at that church, and not all churches have schools. But, most every child does go to school.

It’s also interesting to note that, at least a few years back, not all states had laws requiring teachers convicted of sexual crimes to give up their teaching licenses. It has been within the past 10 years that Missouri made it a law that once convicted, the teacher’s license was revoked. Previously, a teacher could be convicted of some sexual offense against a child, receive probation or such, and simply move across state and start teaching again.

That does not excuse the abuses done by priests, but it does illustrate that not only were they not the only ones abusing, but that the media/people are more interested in the sensationalism of the abuses by priests than the actual dangers their children are in from school personnel.

The church does not talk about those things and it discourages members from talking about them.


That is flat out bullsh!t you are spewing just so you can perpetuate more hatred.

Payouts signed in secret, etc.


You do realize that both parties have to agree to this, right? It isn't simply the Church not advertising it, it is also the abused wanting the settlement without having it broadcast to everyone what all happened.

Not many 11 and 14 yr old children have the experience or the intellect to have a proper discussion about metaphysics.


Define "proper discussion."

You are another one I doubt has children, or, if you do, you really underestimated them.

When my son was 5, we had to go to a funeral. I took the time to explain that body was just what carried a person's being. What a person was were the things that made him or her special. Like with him, it was his love of Thomas the Tank Engine, Pokemon, baseball, etc. And, as long as we remembered those things about the person who died, they'll still be alive.

He totally got what I was saying.

No schools do not teach religions.


Yes they do, but you are an ignorant, hate-filled bigot.

Religion is stupid. Religion is toxic. Religion is bad for everyone.


See my previous statement.

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You are more of a moron now than you were before. I don't care about your kids. I don't care how smart or clever you think they are.

I am not a hate filled bigot and as you have said before, your bias is showing.

Go troll somewhere else please and leave the intelligent discussion to the rest of us.

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I am not a hate filled bigot


You are more of a moron now than you were before. I don't care about your kids. I don't care how smart or clever you think they are.


Hypocrite much, bigot?

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Justannick: I totally agree with you!

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Suck much? Slurp, lol

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And yet another hate-filled post by you. 

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Troll

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This coming from the person who posted a hate-filled post straight off and can't discuss topics without insulting. 

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Did the pope call? He wants you to send your kids to church.

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 You are so triggered it is funny.

You spew a bunch of BS and when asked to support it, you get all p!ssy and belligerent.

You basically announced to everyone that you know you are wrong.

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I wish you'd stop harassing me. Just because I think religion is stupid. Why don't you do as I suggested and take your kids to church. Can you leave them with your priest? I dare you!

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Why can't you grow a spine and respond directly to what I wrote earlier?

Your math example is ridiculous.


Care to elaborate?

AND as far as the pope goes, perhaps you can ask him why all those priests were moved around from parish to parish and allowed to continue to molest/rape/harm children.


That certainly has been a black eye upon the Church. I think those who covered up the abuses are just as guilty as those who did the abusing, and should be punished just as severely.

As to why the cover up? For the same, wrong reasons as the cover up’s by schools and other organizations. They all, stupidly, thought moving the abuser would end the problem because it was now someone else’s problem. They didn’t understand the nature of the sexual predator.

The only thing which has kept me in the Catholic faith is the knowledge that the abuses/cover ups were no different than anywhere else, and that a child is ten times more likely to be abused by someone involved in their school than in their church. This is the case since not all children who go to church go to school at that church, and not all churches have schools. But, most every child does go to school.

It’s also interesting to note that, at least a few years back, not all states had laws requiring teachers convicted of sexual crimes to give up their teaching licenses. It has been within the past 10 years that Missouri made it a law that once convicted, the teacher’s license was revoked. Previously, a teacher could be convicted of some sexual offense against a child, receive probation or such, and simply move across state and start teaching again.

That does not excuse the abuses done by priests, but it does illustrate that not only were they not the only ones abusing, but that the media/people are more interested in the sensationalism of the abuses by priests than the actual dangers their children are in from school personnel.

The church does not talk about those things and it discourages members from talking about them.


That is flat out bullsh!t you are spewing just so you can perpetuate more hatred.

Payouts signed in secret, etc.


You do realize that both parties have to agree to this, right? It isn't simply the Church not advertising it, it is also the abused wanting the settlement without having it broadcast to everyone what all happened.

Not many 11 and 14 yr old children have the experience or the intellect to have a proper discussion about metaphysics.


Define "proper discussion."

You are another one I doubt has children, or, if you do, you really underestimated them.

When my son was 5, we had to go to a funeral. I took the time to explain that body was just what carried a person's being. What a person was were the things that made him or her special. Like with him, it was his love of Thomas the Tank Engine, Pokemon, baseball, etc. And, as long as we remembered those things about the person who died, they'll still be alive.

He totally got what I was saying.

No schools do not teach religions.


Yes they do, but you are an ignorant, hate-filled bigot.

Religion is stupid. Religion is toxic. Religion is bad for everyone.


See my previous statement.

****

You make wrong and hateful statements. Exactly why should you be allowed to do so without question?

Why don't you do as I suggested and take your kids to church. Can you leave them with your priest? I dare you!


Again, at least 10 times more chance a child will be molested by a person involved with their school than by a priest. But, that doesn't fit into your hate-filled narrative, does it?

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its a cult, plain and simple.

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Other religions won't send you a bill.

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This thread is about attributes of organizations that should serve as warnings.

The fact that you receive a bill for services rendered does not belong on that list.

Having said that, it is a rare religious organization that never asks for a dollar.

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Having said that, it is a rare religious organization that never asks for a dollar.


It's even rarer that an organization doesn't have to pay rent/mortgage, utilities, salaries for workers, supplies, etc.

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We are taught in the Bible to give to the church.

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My church is nothing like any of that.

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