Thanos still won - Avengers: Endgame (2019) Discussion

[–] ExTechOp (2770) 6 years ago

This movie literally tells us "Back to the Future" is BS

There's only one timeline occupied by the main characters. Thanos won, but Thor killed him.

Thanos in (most of) this film was from an alternate 2014, which explains why he seems meaner (he hasn't suffered the losses and made the sacrifices like his predecessor did). This Thanos lost.

This all occurred in the main characters' own timeline, not a parallel one. They weren't able to alter their own past, according to the rules of the film.

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[–] alienzen (1931) 6 years ago

You must have been really stoned when you watched the film.

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[–] alienzen (1931) 6 years ago

They didn't go back in time and reverse the snap. They resurrected the people who were snapped. The snap still happened. I'm confused how you watched the whole film and Missed this. Did you watch a cam where they forgot to change the Chinese audio to English?

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

Going back in time and taking the stones still would alter the timeline. You're missing my point. I know how they accomplished the feat of bringing everyone back with their own snap. The argument can be made that they're all still in the same timeline but that's not entirely accurate.

Theoretical Physics makes the case that if you traveled back in time and altered something from your past (even the slightest thing), when you come back then many things would be different but not because your past alteration changed your current timeline but rather when you returned, it was in the new timeline that your actions created.

So even though they traveled back to retrieve the stones to use, that action would have caused a new timeline, perhaps not noticeable to the senses but still a fact.

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[–] Satan2016 (25572) 6 years ago

Physics says nothing about time travel. Science Fiction is mostly fantasy.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

Wrong. The movie Primer was based on Einstein's theories about possible time travel.

I'd also like to point out that today's Science Fiction is tomorrow's Science Fact. Cell phones, laser tech, A.I., rocket ships... these were ALL pieces of Sci-Fi literature and imagination from writers like H.G. Wells, Ray Bradbury and others. Today, they are Science Fact.

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[–] alienzen (1931) 6 years ago

Which theory was that?

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[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

So if time travel is ever invented, where are all the time travelers?

Not everything dreamed up in science fiction can become reality.

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[–] jakemon45 (1141) 6 years ago

that action would have caused a new timeline

It said right in the movie several times that returning the stones to the exact point they were taken would prevent that from happening.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

The new timeline would have been created already when they first took the stones. By returning them back to the same place right at, or right before/after they took them still doesn't cancel the new timeline created when they originally took the stones and went back into the future to undo the first snap. Returning the stones doesn't cancel out that second timeline and returning the stones to their places would only create a third timeline.

There was a story by Sci-Fi author Larry Niven called "All the Myriad Ways" that discussed this potential issue with time travel and crossing over into other dimensions in time. Every time someone went to the past, it caused the traveler to return to a place in time that was altered ever so slightly from what it was when they left. It was because they were in a new timeline.

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[–] Rorikon (17940) 6 years ago

I remember seeing the Ancient One explaining to Banner that if he were to take the Time Stone, it would alter the timeline and create a different branch therefore she couldn't give him the stone until he said that Doctor Strange willing gave the stone to Thanos in the 14 million endings he could see into the future where one held their survival.

In any case, whatever logic they've used for the movie dictated that returning the stones back to the time they were taken wouldn't alter the main timeline they were on but would bring back all those lost in the snap which is what they accomplished while killing off the alternate universe Thanos and his army. Thanos therefore lost since everyone was brought back except those that sacrificed themselves to get/use the stones (Black Widow + Iron Man). They even brought with them the alternate universe Gamora.

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[–] FilmBuff (7263) 6 years ago

They did precisely the opposite of what you wrote. Did you see the film?

They borrowed Infinity Stones from other timelines, used them to undo the snap and defeat Thanos in the main timeline, or at least the one we've been watching for 22 films, then returned the borrowed Infinity Stones to their original timelines.

More than that, they lured a Thanos from a separate timeline into their own, and killed him, so they effectively killed Thanos twice, and prevented the possibility of a snap in a second timeline.

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[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Didn't Thanos win in the other 14,000,605 possible timelines?

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[–] FilmBuff (7263) 6 years ago

I guess now it's a win in at least 2 out of 14,000,606. :)

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[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Two? Why two?

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[–] FilmBuff (7263) 6 years ago

I think I preemptively answered your question. :)

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[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

Technically three now. The Thanos that was killed at the end of this movie was from another timeline, which means that Thanos was killed before the Snap even happened. Those Avengers had it easy.

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[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

I think it's still two.

See my post below about Timeline 1 and Timeline 2.

But please correct me if I've left something out.

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[–] alienzen (1931) 6 years ago

To be fair, doctor strange was talking about all the possible futures from that moment in time. The posibilies on which he was never looking at the possibiliries on titan dpn't count.

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 6 years ago

Here's my take on the other timelines.

The 1970 Jersey timeline: this Thanos probably wins assuming Cap returns it there.

The 2013 Asgard timeline: this Thanos probably wins under same conditions.

The 2014 Morag/Vormir timeline: this Thanos does not win because he is the Thanos that gets dusted in 2023.

The 2012 New York timeline: the most interesting of the alternate timelines. This Thanos can win but he needs to get the tessaract from Loki. Thanos also has other problems to worry about such as the Ancient One is now aware that something big is on the horizon and that she may have 'made a mistake' leading to Thanos' victory. Then there's a third problem with Cap probably deciding against returning the Mind Stone to Hydra. The more I think about it the 2012 alternate timeline really isn't look so good for Thanos. But probably looking pretty good for Loki :D

Most of it highly depends on what Cap actually did before deciding to settle with his lady.

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[–] FilmBuff (7263) 6 years ago

Hold on a second. After I submitted my light-hearted reply, something occurred to me. If time works the way we're told it does in the film, what victorious timeline did Dr. Strange see? Is it reasonable to assume that if Dr. Strange saw one victory, it had to be the reality where Thanos follows the Avengers into a different timeline and is killed? Because if he saw the future that we saw in Endgame, wouldn't he see 2 victories? Or did he "skip to the end" and see Tony kill Thanos, and miss the part where he was killing a different Thanos? In other words:

Victory 1 - There now exists a reality where Thanos, and his entire, army, vanish forever some time after the start of Guardians of the Galaxy. This feels like the true victory. Life goes on, no one is snapped, no one ever even really knows Thanos was the threat he was. This is a true victory if you ask me.

Victory 2 - Endgame. Sure, the Avengers "won," but Iron Man, Black Widow, Vision, and Gamora died, Captain America retired, the world was a mess for 5 years, with no telling how long, if ever, it will take to get back on track, and in general things are far from awesome. If this is a victory, it's a hollow one.

I think it's entirely plausible that Dr. Strange is lumping those two together as one victory, since the Avengers from his reality orchestrated both, but it's also possible that he either missed something as he quickly scanned 14,000,605 timelines, or he fudged the details a bit to make things sound more hopeful than they were.

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[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Ah, I see. There's Timeline 1 and 2.

Timeline 1: where Thanos 'wins' and dies content that The Snap occurred, but unbeknownst to him, it is ended five years after his demise.

Timeline 2: where Thanos jumps into 'Timeline 1' and is 'dusted' along with his army before he is even able to assemble all the Infinity Stones.

The Avengers arguably win in both, but 'Timeline 2' is the only timeline in which The Snap never happened.

One might arguable that Timeline 2 is the one real victory, since it didn't involve 50% of the universe spending five years in suspended animation.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

See my comment to alienzen.

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[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

As others have pointed out, the second snap did not involve time travel. There are no alternate timelines there.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

Yes it did. They altered the timeline by going back in time to get the stones after Thanos had destroyed the stones in the current timeline.

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[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

Those particular timelines were affected, yes, but they ended up going back to their original timeline before the second snap even happened. No time travel involved.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

The original timeline has changed when they come back from getting the stones. That's my point. It may look like the original timeline but it's still different.

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[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

Even if that were true (and the movie said it wouldn't be), then alternate versions of the Avengers would then pop back to the original time. We see the time machine being used from the perspective of other characters and the person being sent through the Quantum Realm always comes back.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

My argument also explains present Nebula (the one we know) staying alive after past Nebula (from another timeline) is killed.

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[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

We know for a fact that she was from an alternate timeline in which the Infinity Stones were no longer in that universe. We already know the past can't be changed.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

Here's a decent article that also points out what I'm stating:

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/04/230722/avengers-endgame-guide-time-travel-infinity-stones

And here's a snippet of said article that makes my point:

Meet the "time heist." It's a different kind of time travel scheme than most depicted in pop culture, much to Scott's disappointment. The Avengers won't re-write the past — that's impossible. Instead, they'll creating a different future.

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[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

The writer of that article simply made a recap of the movie with the odd preface that the Avengers did not succeed while saying absolutely nothing about why it didn't succeed.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

So now we're arguing over semantics.
Fine then, we will just agree to disagree on this point.

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[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

I'm not sure you know what semantics are.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

Semantics - the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning.

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[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

Okay, but we are not arguing semantics here. I am telling you this writer did not make a case.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

Okay then. I still loved the movie. I'm just thinking out loud here. Time travel can be a sketchy issue. I'll leave it at that.

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[–] FFNogoodnik (775) 6 years ago

Okay, but we are not arguing semantics here. I am telling you this writer did not make a case.

Who cares if the writer made sense. You mentioned semantics and I am always up for semantics. :)

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

If they "create a different future" then they are creating a new timeline.

It's the exact point I'm making.

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[–] galahadfairlight (414) 6 years ago

Endgame specifically dismissed Back to the Future as a blueprint for time travel.

I'm not sure how you can then say "But Back to the Future Part 2"..... no, it was dismissed, its not relevant, ergo....

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

It's not just "Back to the Future 2", it's one of the debates in Theoretical Physics and it's been addressed in more time travel movies other than "Back to the Future 2."

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[–] galahadfairlight (414) 6 years ago

Doesn't matter. THIS movie specifically dismissed it as not how it works in THIS movie.

As time travel is theoretical and never likely to be achieved, I think its fair game for a movie to set out its time travel "rules".

It didn't just dismiss Back to the Future either, it dismissed a whole load of them.

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[–] FFNogoodnik (775) 6 years ago

what they did in Endgame has ALWAYS been my theory on how time travel works in films.

The time traveler always goes back in time in a different universe, never back in time in their own. The only difference is that going back does not cause a split because where are you going to get all that energy and matter to dynamically create a new universe?

They can go into the future of that "new" (to them) universe but every trip to the past is always to a different one.

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 6 years ago

Let's put on our memory hats and recall "Back to the Future, Part 2" where Doc Brown explains how a parallel timeline is created when an event is changed in the past. It doesn't alter what already happened, it theoretically creates a whole new timeline with copies of everyone from the original timeline, be they alive or dead.

So in that sense, Thanos still won. The original timeline would still exist.

You have it backwards. They took the stones from alternate timelines and brought them to their original timeline. In the original timeline (the main one) he would lose. Though he had won for five years.

But it does leave questions whether or not Thanos would win in those other ones.

The 1970 Jersey timeline: this Thanos probably wins assuming Cap returns it there.

The 2013 Asgard timeline: this Thanos probably wins under same conditions.

The 2014 Morag timeline: this Thanos does not win because he is the Thanos that gets dusted in 2023.

The 2014 Vormir timeline is the same exact one as the Morag timeline. War Machine, Nebula, Widow and Hawkeye all time jumped to Morag with Widow and Hawkeye doing a regular space jump to Vormir. Since its the same timeline as the Morag one that means there is no Thanos to worry about.

The 2012 New York timeline: the most interesting of the alternate timelines. This Thanos can win but he needs to get the tessaract from Loki. Thanos also has other problems to worry about such as the Ancient One is now aware that something big is on the horizon and that she may have 'made a mistake' leading to Thanos' victory. Then there's a third problem with Cap probably deciding against returning the Mind Stone to Hydra. The more I think about it the 2012 alternate timeline really isn't look so good for Thanos. But probably looking pretty good for Loki

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