MovieChat Forums > Rogue One (2016) Discussion > You cannot hate the Sequel Trilogy yet g...

You cannot hate the Sequel Trilogy yet give this film a pass

posted 4 years ago by FootOfDavros (8388)
18 replies | jump to latest

This film is a disgrace.

It conveniently shafts both the OT and the PT in terms of continuity - an incredible feat which makes this film belong to neither.

1. The Death Star - Weapon and all - was conceived of and designed by the insect chaps from AOTC. We literally see them doing it; giving the plans to Dooku; then watch Palpatine and prequel version Vader watching the initial construction.

2. The plans were clearly not "beamed" to the Tantive IV. We literally see the guys passing it hand to hand up the line as Vader chops his way through them.

The film is as big a joke as is anyone who complains about all the non previous canon additions to the sequel trilogy films yet declares their love for this piece of garbage.

[–] Otter (24464) 4 years ago

Obviously there were a few hitches along the way, they had to scrap the initial plans and start over. If everything had gone smoothly with the insect guys' initial design there would have been a working Death Star in 5-10 years, but instead, it's just starting up 18-20 years later!

That implies a certain amount of starting and stopping and new teams being brought on to try again, and fired and other people brought in to see if they can make a go of it. Like, you know, with any real life innovative project.

[–] christomacin (4676) 4 years ago

Continuity wise, this whole saga is pretty much one big, long cluster fuck. However, judged as a piece of cinema, Rogue One is in my mind superior to the prequels in many respects. I agree that having watching the movies in the order released, I would NOT have interpreted Leia's actions on the blockade runner before capture or her words to Vader after capture as being preceded by the events as depicted in Rogue One. I also never thought that the weakness of the Death Star exploited in the 1977 film was ever a "problem" requiring an explanation to "fix" it. This is a classic example of a solution in search of a problem. I just chalked it up to Lucas exploring the theme of technological disfunction and bureaucratic arrogance which he has done all the way back to THX-1138. I'm sorry, though, I simply can't agree that this film, though unnecessary, was an equal or greater failure than the prequels - which were also unnecessary.

[–] FootOfDavros (8388) 4 years ago

Interesting comments, thanks.

Re that last point though, I wasn't comparing this film with the prequels but rather the sequels.

There are so many people who complain about the new powers given to Jedi (e.g. Rey's force healing which completely breaks the entire saga's premise of why Anakin turns to the dark side in the first place!) / character "assassination" in the sequels yet claim Rogue One (with the same flaws, as outlined above) as some sort of authentic Star Wars vision.

It's that I find an amusing hypocrisy.

[–] christomacin (4676) 4 years ago

I like the sequels even less than the prequels, so I would be even more critical of them. I got my wires crossed there with the sequels and prequels. Things have gotten so complicated... ha ha.

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

"1. The Death Star - Weapon and all - was conceived of and designed by the insect chaps from AOTC. We literally see them doing it; giving the plans to Dooku; then watch Palpatine and prequel version Vader watching the initial construction."

You would prefer the DS being built by those stupid, goofy aliens as opposed to an Imperial scientist with a conscience? Seriously, the Geonosians don't have a single brain cell between them! So an alien race that likes to host gladiatorial combat arenas could also build the most advanced superweapon ever devised? Get real! In any case, the Geonosian leader said they were BUILDING it, not that they DESIGNED it!

"2. The plans were clearly not "beamed" to the Tantive IV. We literally see the guys passing it hand to hand up the line as Vader chops his way through them."

The plans WERE beamed to the Tantive IV, but they were then copied to a PORTABLE STORAGE DEVICE as the Rebels knew the Imps were coming to get them, and they needed those plans OFF that ship's central computer and in a concealable form, FAST. Don't you understand?

I LOVE this movie, it's the first and only decent Star Wars movie Disney ever made, and I'm not going to stand by while a fool like you bashes it for no good reason!

[–] christomacin (4676) 4 years ago

One thing I would have done differently is to have Princess Leia have a reason be in the area that squared with the dialog at the beginning of "A New Hope" between Leia and Vader. Vader says "You aren't on any mercy mission this time." So, have Leia go to Jedda under the guise of a disaster relief operation, which would in actual fact be a reconnaissance mission to ascertain the full extent of the destruction and gather intelligence about the Death Star. I envisioned it as being a prolonged cat and mouse game between Leia and the Empire, with the Empire finally catching her in the act. To me, this is better than Leia's ship suddenly appearing and taking off from inside another ship. Leia's continued feigning of innocence after being boarded makes a lot more sense this way, too.

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

I don't buy it, there's no reason why the Tantive IV shouldn't be in the main Rebel cruiser to make a quick getaway when things get hot at Scarif. Besides, I'm thinking that the Senate wouldn't allow the Empire to hold Leia for interrogation or anything like that, as long as she was doing humanitarian work. It didn't work this time because Vader knew that she was after the Scarif plans for the Death Star, he even mentions it to her when he boards the ship:

"You aren't on any mercy mission this time. Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies, I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you."

Basically, that's Leia cornered and trapped right there, and she has no excuse. So she was arrested, charged with treason against the Empire, and for good measure, the Emperor dissolved the Senate so no further transgressions on their authority could occur.

That's how I see it, anyway.

[–] christomacin (4676) 4 years ago

"Besides, I'm thinking that the Senate wouldn't allow the Empire to hold Leia for interrogation or anything like that, as long as she was doing humanitarian work."

I'm not sure about the timeline of when the Senate was dissolved. That part could probably be finessed. Anyway, a problem with doing it the way I suggested would likely necessitate Leia being in much more of the film, which poses obvious problems in terms of either a lot more CGI or the recasting of Leia.

[–] FootOfDavros (8388) 4 years ago

Did you ever listen to the original expanded story of the stolen plans from the Star Wars radio series (made in the early 80s)?

At least they made that actually tie in with what we then saw on screen, Leia's role in it, and what Vader says...

[–] christomacin (4676) 4 years ago

Yes, I did... but I really can't remember it. It's been so long ago.

[–] FootOfDavros (8388) 4 years ago

The plans WERE beamed to the Tantive IV, but they were then copied to a PORTABLE STORAGE DEVICE as the Rebels knew the Imps were coming to get them, and they needed those plans OFF that ship's central computer and in a concealable form, FAST. Don't you understand?

I think it is you who didn't understand the sequence of events. Read AP's comments below for further information on what actually happened in the film Rogue One...

As for the insect guys, it doest matter what we'd prefer - that's how George Lucas wrote it. And that's my point - if you're happy with retcons in one Disney film against established canon then you can't complain about the sequel trilogy's nonsense.

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

"I think it is you who didn't understand the sequence of events. Read AP's comments below for further information on what actually happened in the film Rogue One..."

OK, so the plans were beamed to the Rebel cruiser. But Tantive IV was INSIDE that, so in a way, it still counts. Anyway, it's only a minor nitpick, as AP said. So I forgot that the Rebels ran through an airlock to the T4 trying to get away from Vader, so what? :)

"As for the insect guys, it doest matter what we'd prefer - that's how George Lucas wrote it."

What if the Geonosians designed an initial draft of the Death Star with no weaknesses, with the insect minds being what they're like, and Galen Erso got hold of them and added the weakness to get revenge on the Empire for killing his wife? That sounds plausible to me.

"if you're happy with retcons in one Disney film against established canon then you can't complain about the sequel trilogy's nonsense."

Yes, I can, every single bloody time. ;)

[–] FootOfDavros (8388) 4 years ago

So I forgot that the Rebels ran through an airlock to the T4 trying to get away from Vader, so what? :)

So did Vader!

[–] AP (5290) 4 years ago

It doesn’t contradict your first point. Even going by the prequels, the Death Star would’ve taken a good 18 years or so to build. And with the original architects being long dead, they would have to have other teams come in and build the thing. One of the engineers in involved built a flaw in its weapon construction.

As for the beaming of information, it was initially beamed on to the docking ship and then physically handed to the crew if the Tantive IV. A New Hope said the plans were beamed directly to that ship so it’s a but of a flub but not a giant one.

[–] Karl Aksel (1490) 4 years ago

As for the beaming of information, it was initially beamed on to the docking ship and then physically handed to the crew if the Tantive IV. A New Hope said the plans were beamed directly to that ship so it’s a but of a flub but not a giant one.

It's not a small flub, either. Vader knows the plans were beamed to them, but whether it was beamed to the docking ship or directly to Tantive IV is immaterial. Vader might simply have said "this ship" because "the docking ship this ship was attached to" was an unnecessarily verbose and meaningless distinction. So as retcons go, this is a pretty innocuous one.

[–] furiousstyles (4391) 4 years ago

Point 2 - The message was beamed to the mother ship then downloaded on to the card , you can clearly see them doing this in the movie.

Point 1 - Valid but we don't know it was designed by the insect chaps

Your post is completely over the top , its a really good movie.

[–] FootOfDavros (8388) 4 years ago

Point 1 - Valid but we don't know it was designed by the insect chaps

Technically that's true I guess - they may have been the overseers of some other chaps who did the graft. However, either way, Dooku didn't insist on personally taking the plans to Palpatine, and then he and Vader watch the construction underway, if the plans were simply for a giant spherically space station with a non functioning laser device! That would be stupid...

The point of the post isn't to be over the top - it's to highlight the hypocrisy.

e.g. Rian Johnson got destroyed for literally saying "let the past die" and trying to make a Star Wars film which ran it's own course, giving up on canon. Yet Rogue One doing exactly the same thing gets praised by the same people!

[–] furiousstyles (4391) 4 years ago

Its due to the fact the Last jedi was an utterly garbage film that spat in the face of star wars , luke the titty milking bum, pointless plots, where as Rouge One was enjoyable and well crafted.