MovieChat Forums > The Affair (2014) Discussion > Poor Joanie - Some Insights

Poor Joanie - Some Insights

posted 9 years ago by evi320
67 replies | jump to latest

I’ve mentioned before that I’m a therapist, so I will give a therapist’s POV on the rather perplexing behavior of Alison in the final 2 episodes in Season 2.
It is well known that some parents of children who have died end up overindulging and even spoiling the next child. That child, the replacement child, feels pressure to live up to the ghost child and invariably falls short, creating all sorts of dysfunction.

Some parents handle it well. They work through the indescribable grief. They treat the new child like a completely separate person. Everything ends up ok.

Then we have people like Alison. If the writers of the show really want to redeem her in Season 3, after her abysmal behavior in the final 2 episodes of Season 2, they will show her as a mother who was terrified to bond with her child because of what happened to the one who came before her. This is a common, but not often talked about, phenomenon. We don’t like to think about parents not bonding with their kids. It’s scary. There is actually great physical and emotional risk to the child when a parent, especially the mother, does not bond emotionally. But it happens more than we would like to think. And if the writers take this angle, it would at least help to explain Alison’s strange behavior and make her more sympathetic, just as Noah was shown to be more sympathetic as Season 2 wrapped up.

We talk on these boards like these characters are real people. It’s because they feel real. They’re imperfect. The crazy plot twists have been pretty farfetched, however the essence is real, and it’s what keeps us hooked – these are people we can relate to. Or not. We like to think, “I’d never be like Noah, or Helen, or Alison, or Cole.” But secretly, we think “I’ve done that,” or “I *could* do that,” and it keeps us watching.

What has been so disturbing to me is how Alison could choose a restaurant over her kid AND allow a guy who she KNOWS is NOT the father (thanks Maury) raise her in her absence. When Alison is 80 and Joanie won’t visit her, the fact that The Lobster Roll was awesome and terrific is not going to be much consolation for the dawning revelation that she really, really screwed up her priorities.

In life, we may not get it right with adult love, but loving a child is easy. It’s so, so easy, because children have an infinite capacity for love. Adults tend to see love divided up into pieces of a pie, and when it’s all used up, it’s gone. Children tend to view love as something they can give 100% to everyone they know. And to see Alison reject that in favor of the freaking LOBSTER ROLL is just difficult and painful. But in real life, just like with the affairs, the yelling, the betrayals, the secrets – that happens too. And still we watch.

[–] centrd 9 years ago

evi320, thank you for those great insights into the bonding issues Alison may be having with her child. That makes so much sense. As a mother myself, her behavior just seems so off regarding her child. Although, I will say that people who are engaging in destructive behavior, like an affair, tend to rationalize their actions to the point they will do things that they would have never considered before. Like abandoning your children for your lover. But Alison should be over that, shouldn't she? Alison's behavior's been off all along, more so than just the regular insanity that seems to descend upon those in the midst of something as crazy and thrilling and destructive as an affair. Alison doesn't seem to have grown at all. There's been no change. She's still just bouncing from one thing to the next, impulsively, with very little thought going into any of her decisions. I agree, both Alison and Noah could benefit from individual therapy rather than couple's counseling.

[–] evi320 9 years ago

I so agree - I just think Alison never really deals with things. She flits from one situation to another, looking for solace in the relationship, rather than getting right with herself, forgiving herself, etc. So many people do that. It doesn't make them bad people, it makes them human.

That said, we owe it to our kids to get right with ourselves. If not, they are forced on some level to carry a burden that is not theirs to carry, because they end up suffering from mistakes that were not theirs.

How can Joanie be expected to make any better choices than her mother in life, given everything that's happened, unless Alison gets on board with Noah and really starts parenting her? That's all I was saying. But now with the accident secret between them, ugh, what a mess. Season 3 will be interesting!

[–] Petals121 9 years ago

But how is she choosing the restaurant over the kid? She's only there for like a few days a week and the kid is what, 15 months at that time? I don't really see what the big deal is. If Allison was a man would anyone find it strange that he would want to do something with his life other than be a parent?

[–] Cotton-mouth 9 years ago

I think some are interpreting Alison spending as much time as she is at the Lobster roll away from Joanie as hinting at some reluctance on her part to forge a deep strong bond with her for fear of losing her, as she did Gabriel. In the context of a mother (entirely different kind of connection than being a father, carrying a baby to term, delivering, probably nursing etc) some view Alison's willingness to be away from Alison for as much as she is as a sign of her emotionally avoiding Joanie, especially given that she "failed" (in her eyes) as a mother to Gabriel. Given such a loss some might expect Alison to never let Joanie out of her sight, much less spend 3-4 days per week away from her.

This isn't a feminist issue, rather a motherhood thing, I think anyway.

[–] Liz01219 9 years ago

Petals

She's there at TLR 3 days a week.

She and Noah are living in at least a 1 million $$ apartment.
If they could afford that, then I would have to believe that they could have afforded a 2 bedroom apt in Montauk.

If Gigi didn't have obligations to a family of her own, there shouldn't have been a problem for Alison to have Gigi and Joanie with her in Montauk.

Instead, she has Noah being both mother and father to Joanie with the help of Gigi.
Even before she bought into the LR, she was going to school and comes home to find Noah caring for his 2 youngest, cooking dinner, while holding Joanie.

Alison should have been overjoyed to have another child.

Athena was never around when Alison was growing up, she was off seeing the world.
Maybe because of the way she was raised she doesn't think there is anything wrong with leaving her daughter, but there is a possibility she can't look at the little girl because she knows she's living with a man she's duping, OR, because when she looks at her she sees Cole.

[–] catbookss 9 years ago

She and Noah are living in at least a 1 million $$ apartment.
If they could afford that, then I would have to believe that they could have afforded a 2 bedroom apt in Montauk.

They couldn't, but Noah could. He paid for the fancy apartment. But, obviously Noah didn't want to move to Montauk. He's used to living in the city, has to be near his kids, his editor and publishers are there, and that's where he wanted to stay. I can't see Alison asking Noah to pay for an apartment for her in Montauk, on top of the expensive apartment.

Alison living in Oscar's old office above the LR for 3 days a week was more efficient. As she said, she could get more done while she was there.

If Gigi didn't have obligations to a family of her own, there shouldn't have been a problem for Alison to have Gigi and Joanie with her in Montauk.

Yes, if Gigi didn't have her own obligations, but where would she stay? Oscar's old office might do for Alison and Joanie, but not for the nanny too.

Instead, she has Noah being both mother and father to Joanie with the help of Gigi.

Right, for 3 out of 7 days a week. The remaining 4 she's home with Joanie.

Even before she bought into the LR, she was going to school and comes home to find Noah caring for his 2 youngest, cooking dinner, while holding Joanie.

She was taking one class -- biochem -- for 6 weeks. As I posted to you in another thread, that scenario (which only happened once, as far as we know, if it happened) was in Alison's POV, while in Noah's he came home while Alison was in the kitchen alone finishing up the dishes.

Alison should have been overjoyed to have another child.

I don't see evidence that she isn't. She didn't want Noah to come into her room after she'd given birth to Joanie and he'd finally arrived, because she was so enthralled with her and bonding with her.

[–] Liz01219 9 years ago

cat,

I hate to be cynical but was she bonding with Joanie, or checking out Joanie for signs that she looked like Noah before she let him in the room?

[–] catbookss 9 years ago

Liz, I saw no evidence that she was doing anything other than bonding with Joanie. At that point she didn't think Joanie's father was anyone other than Noah; her doubts about that came later.

It was a beautiful and touching scene. Alison was clearly enthralled with her new child.

[–] sluggr-2 9 years ago

Alison is likely staying at TLR because it is the summer in Montauk and likely every available place has been rented for the whole season. If there aren't places to rent, then we really don't need to dig too deep into why Gigi isn't out there with Joni. For all we know, Luisa is still in the city at her old job until TLR opens. It seems like The Affair covered about a years time in the last few episodes, so many details really need to be filled in by viewers.

I think my percentage of Chimp DNA is higher than others. Cleaver Greene

[–] evi320 9 years ago

Here are my thoughts on this and all the other posts that have insisted that, since Joanie was roughly 15-months-old at the time of Alison being at The Lobster Roll roughly 40% of the week, it was ok. Children at this age are NEEDY! Parenting them 60% of the time is half-assed, I’m sorry, but it is. And for anyone crying sexism, dads are included in this too. I cut absent dads no slack in this regard either – this is an erroneous assumption that has been made in this thread. I think we’ve all pretty much come to the consensus in other threads that Noah is a class A fool for putting his own selfish needs above his relationship with his kids – but this thread is about Alison’s relationship with Joanie, which is why I didn’t feel the need to mention that absent dads are on the hook for bad behavior too.

Parents need to be there not 60% of the time but 100% of the time. Take this case in point, which is an example of a friend, rather than a client. Her husband unceremoniously dumped her for another woman when their child was 1-year-old. Her reaction was to stay out partying until 5 a.m. probably 5 out of 7 nights per week. Her rationale was this: My child is sleeping. She doesn’t know I’m gone. Here is the fault in this line of thinking – children between the ages of 1 and 3 often wake up several times in a night. When her child woke up to a babysitter who was sometimes a stranger (there was a steady rotation of people in and out of the kid’s life), instead of mom or dad, this had a negative impact. This is not a statement of opinion, it is a statement of fact. The child grew into her toddler years very anxious and insecurely attached. When she woke up, mom or dad was not there, it was someone she either didn’t know, or barely knew.

This is why Alison being there 4 days a week doesn’t cut it. A 15-month-old may not still be nursing, but they are still forming attachments. They need to wake up one day knowing that today is about the same as yesterday, and that tomorrow will be about the same as today. They don’t exactly understand a parent’s need to find his/herself. That is just kind of the territory that goes along with having kids.

The same could be said of Noah’s children, who clearly are also having adjustment issues. That's a whole other story.

You know when kids I work with stop needing me so much? When the parents have the proverbial light bulb go on over their heads and realize the kids need to be the priority in their lives, that it is the best possible investment of their time and energy. It is a beautiful thing to see.

No one is perfect. But the fictional Joanie, unless Alison gets her priorities straight, is not going to end up having a great relationship with her mom. Just some more insights. Thanks everyone for your GREAT comments and insights – I’ve really enjoyed reading the responses. This show is certainly fun to discuss and debate! 

[–] Liz01219 9 years ago

I agree at that age a baby/toddler really needs their mother.

If the mother has to work, the child still sees the mother 7 days a week.

I think Alison is still in such a depression over the loss of Gabrielle, she can only function sexually because it helps her forget for however long the act goes.
She's basically numb.

In the season finale I believe in both POV'S Noah happily shows video taken earlier that day of Joanie dancing, and Alison's reaction isn't what I'd expect from a mother who doesn't see their child 4 days a week.

[–] ToHelenBackAgain 9 years ago

Parents need to be there not 60% of the time but 100% of the time.

Implementing this would mean that nobody who needs - or wants, for that matter - to work, could ever have children. You're advocating for financial 1%ers only to breed, and no one else.

That strikes me as a very dangerous idea.

Fortunately, it's also unenforceable.

"RECKLESS ROMANTIC APPROACH REQUIRED. SUGGEST CHAMPAGNE. SOFT LIGHTS."

[–] catbookss 9 years ago

Parents need to be there not 60% of the time but 100% of the time.

This is a virtual impossibility. Are you saying anyone who's a parent, man or woman, who works is an unfit and bad parent? Because that's what you're left with: the very, very few parents who can afford to and want to be with their kids 100% of the time. Even most of those parents hire babysitters from time to time.

As Theresa pointed out, pregnancy leave is usually only 6 weeks. What about those mothers who returned to work after 6 weeks? Alison has stayed home and parented Joanie for all of the first 15-16 months of Joanie's life, with the exception of taking one class for 6 weeks.

A 15-month-old may not still be nursing, but they are still forming attachments. They need to wake up one day knowing that today is about the same as yesterday, and that tomorrow will be about the same as today. They don’t exactly understand a parent’s need to find his/herself. That is just kind of the territory that goes along with having kids.

Which is why Joanie was left with Noah, a man who's known her since birth, has already had the experience of raising 4 kids, and with her nanny, in the familiar apartment in which she's lived all of her short life.

Kids also don't understand why Mom and/or Dad have to go to work to provide them with such things as a roof over their heads, food on the table, clothes, toys, an education, and so on.

As I posted earlier, Alison and Noah aren't yet married. She has no way of knowing if they will marry, and she may have to be the sole provider for Joanie. Alison is being responsible for ensuring Joanie's future, as well as "finding herself," first by going back to school so she could become a doctor, second by investing in and working on a business, in which she can spend 4 whole days a week with Joanie. I don't see where her priorities are off.

Thanks everyone for your GREAT comments and insights – I’ve really enjoyed reading the responses. This show is certainly fun to discuss and debate!

Here we agree :)

[–] Liz01219 9 years ago

cat

I have to agree.
Alison has no way of knowing if she'll ever marry Noah at that point.
All of her money was put into the Lobster Roll, and now she has to work to make it successful.
I think she remembers Athena's words.
Athena told her not to sell the house because that was the only thing financially she had.
Alison no longer has the house, but she is the co-owner of a very successful business, and that is her freedom if she and Noah never marry.

[–] catbookss 9 years ago

I agree, Liz. When Athena told Alison she'd been the one to make sure Alison got the house so it gave her some financial security, the house was already in escrow -- too late. Then when the opportunity for Alison to invest it in a potentially very successful business came up, she went for it, remembering what Athena said to her. It's financial security and freedom for her and for Joanie. She no longer has the luxury of thinking only about herself.

[–] speckmaus1 9 years ago

There would be a huge chunk of the global parenting community disagreeing with you.
Numerous studies (US as well international) have shown that good quality early childhood education in schools or daycare are beneficial for children in regards to academic benefits as well as social interaction later in life. Besides the point that most parents can not afford for one person to stay home full time it is also not really the sole purpose in ones life to be a parent. Kids are the happiest when the parents are the happiest and if a fulfilling career or other intellectual or social connections outside the baby world will give that to parents then it should not be looked down upon but rather encouraged.

If every parent had to be home at all times during the night we would have no doctors, nurses, police men, bus drivers, fire men etc. This is just unrealistic.

[–] catbookss 9 years ago

I'm interested in Evi's responses to the feedback she's gotten, so am bumping this back up.

[–] evi320 9 years ago

Ok so here is my feedback on the feedback. I find it interesting I have to qualify every single statement I make. Somehow I'm now advocating the 1% myth as well as a return to women not being the workplace. Didn't think I'd need to do this BUT here we go. I hope this finally clarifies things.

I was raised by a working mother. My mother, God rest her soul, was a single mom from the time I was 1 to about age 5. She worked very very hard. I spent most of my toddler years in daycare. She found really wonderful places, with terrific caregivers. But she was there every night. She spent time with me when she wasn't working. She provided a good roof over my head. I saw she was trying. I never woke up and wondered where she was, or what her priorities were. I've been a single working mom for going on 12 years, since my son was 4. Unlike my mom, I'm blessed with a super flexible work schedule. The sacrifices her generation made, made it possible for my generation to experience things like flex time, etc.

All I'm trying to say is that it's possible to work and find a job and still be there for your kids. It's not necessary to work three hours away (again, read my previous posts - Montauk is a very long way from NYC, by train, car or otherwise. I used to live in both Suffolk and Nassau counties on Long Island, so I know what I am talking about). NYC has a ton of work opportunities. I stand by the fact that Alison is using Montauk as an excuse. She wasn't ready for the insta-relationship, the kid, everything, even though she thought she was. She was drifting emotionally and geographically. Then the serious relationship and the kid materialized and she clearly couldn't handle it. The "I need to run The Lobster Roll with my ex-husband without telling Noah" thing was an excuse. She still had not dealt with the tragic loss of her son. Then there is another needy creature demanding her time the way babies tend to do, and she bailed (see the original post).

Being there for your kid 100% of the time doesn't mean smothering them, making them the center of your universe, and making them feel guilty when they start to assert their own independence. It means keeping a schedule with them. Giving them some predictability. Most parents work. My mom worked. I work. It's good for kids to see their parents working. But tuck them in. Read them a story. Fix them a snack. Or if you can't do that, doing SOMETHING in the day, SOMETHING to show them that you care. I never said someone needs to quit their job or live up to some impossible ideal. But creating stability is vital. Spending the majority of the week 3 hours away from your kid has long-term consequences.

There are many many ways to parent a kid. I was simply saying that Alison being in Montauk running a restaurant will not cut it in the long run with Joanie. If Alison walked into my office and said, hey my kid screams every time I pick her up and acts like she doesn't know me, I'd start brainstorming with her ways that she could modify her schedule to be there more and create a better bond. And if she didn't like that, then she would be absolutely within her rights to fire me and go find someone she can pay to tell her what she wants to hear, that staying 3 hours away from her kid for the majority of the week will have no long-term consequences for her and Joanie.

And if Sarah Treem ever gets around to making a what-happened-to-Joanie sequel, maybe that will bear out. Maybe she and Whitney will end up being kindred spirits. And if she ends up being a perfectly well adjusted adult with absolutely no resentment toward her mother, then I'll eat my words. :)

The nice thing about these boards is that we can share differing opinions. I don't expect everyone to agree with everything. It's a perspective. Some people may never get my point of view, just like I will never agree that staying away from one's kid is a great way to create a loving relationship.

[–] JW-7 9 years ago

Maybe she and Whitney will end up being kindred spirits.

This brings up an interesting question. Up to "The Affair" it would seem that Noah, indeed, might have been fairly called an "excellent father." We are not told that anything happened that should have particularly damaged the kids before that. So to what do you attribute Whitney turning out as she did: rebellious, hostile, negative, explosive and, yes, bitchy?

Of course, I do note that Martin was not exactly a sweetheart, either, and Trevor seemed to be OK, and freaked only after Noah left.

I do feel for Joanie, BTW. I wouldn't wish her on Whitney later in her life.

[–] evi320 9 years ago

That IS interesting. I would love to know more about Whitney. We really only know what happened after that first summer in Montauk, which as we know, was ultimately disastrous for the Solloway family unit. We need a spin-off show with all the supporting characters! I would watch that.

I really need to go back and re-watch Season 1. Whitney initially struck me as just an overconfident, self-focused teenager. She really ramped it up in Season 2! But now I'm wondering, was there more beneath the surface? Maybe there were a ton of cracks in Helen's and Noah's marriage, and her quirks were a clue to that. Can a great marriage fall apart when a Noah sees an Alison? Or do the cracks have to be there for a long time beforehand? I'm guessing, based on nothing other than supposition, that the cracks were already pretty deep, otherwise Noah might have had a one-night stand, quickly thought it was a huge mistake, and that would have been that. The family might never have known, or Noah would have confessed to Helen, she would have forgiven him, and they would have moved on.

There were some hints to the deep cracks - his resentment of the in-laws' financial support etc, so who knows.

I think it's possible to be a good parent while at the same time being a deeply flawed person, like Noah is. Look at all the issues he has with his own dad, but he tries with his kids, even if he gets it wrong sometimes. I've also seen it where a person really messes up as a parent but redeem themselves in their children's eyes by pulling themselves together and being an awesome grandparent, or being a great parent to their adult children, even if they missed the boat in the younger years (there's hope for you yet, Alison! haha!). So as for Noah, I think he loves his kids - even Helen told him he was a good dad - but he has been trying to be a dad to his kids while rejecting their mother and embracing a new life with a new woman and a new baby. It's a lot for the kids to process. If the parents were miserable together and better apart, and they're still there for their kids, the way Helen and Noah came together when Martin got sick, it could work.

Whitney, being older, might have more of a burden to bear in that regard. She's seen more and been through more, and let's face it, her way of expressing herself doesn't exactly endear her to people. I like it, though. She's interesting. That's why I can't wait for Season 3!!

And let me add, before someone says somehow I'm defending Noah's parenting over Alison's, Noah's plans have consistently included his kids. He has fought to spend time with them, even if his thought process has been flawed, i.e. just expecting everyone to accept his decisions and forgetting that those same decisions have had consequences to other people's lives. Alison has in large part absented herself from Joanie's life. Does one approach (Noah's) have an advantage over another (Alison's)? Who knows. This is what makes the show so good - trying to understand each character's motivation, and, just when we think we have it figured out, the plot takes a turn we didn't see coming. And who knows, maybe with the way the writers love to advance the time periods so abruptly, we might just get to see how the kids end up as grown-ups!

[–] JW-7 9 years ago

Thanks for the reasoned insights and thoughts. You must be good at what you do. Your writing shows real empathy.

I was thinking after I wrote the post you responded to that, if you remember, Martin absolutely did not want to go to Montauk (why, we don't know) to the point that he pretended to hang himself! Noah seemed a little upset at first, almost more irritated than upset, but then treated it as Martin just pulling another stunt, as if it's nothing new. So these kids seem to have some issues.

I think Helen's parents open disrespect for Noah, before Alison, didn't do anything to foster respect for in the kids. In fact Noah's answer before Alison to "Who loves you, baby", might well have been "no one."

[–] evi320 9 years ago

Ok THIS is why I need to go back and re-watch Season 1! Completely forgot about the fake hanging incident! I binge-watched that season right before Season 2 started, and I think I forgot a lot of details. Talk about a huge red flag!

I always find children and teens to be remarkably perceptive. At Martin's age, they don't miss much. Maybe he was sick of the tension between his grandparents and his dad, the little digs, the barbs, the fact that his father so clearly hates their help but accepts it anyway. Gorgeous setting, beautiful house to stay in, but family tension that thick tends to destroy even the most serene of settings.

Now that I'm thinking about that incident, I'm thinking too about how Noah just basically got Martin in the car and off they went without much thought or reflection about it. To your point - it's as if this was nothing new for this family.

I also think Martin's stomach/digestive issues, although there were clearly physical causes, were likely exacerbated by the tremendous stress the family was under at the time. It was an interesting plot development, too, that that illness forced Helen and Noah to really look at what they were doing to their kids with the acrimonious divorce.

This is why I love this show - there is so much going on at once, so much to think about. Great observations, thank you for sharing them.

[–] JW-7 9 years ago

This show, and this thread, have really developed some issues. I usually don't read posts of such length but these are exceptional. I tjink season 1 was a setup to season 2, in the sense that it was more plot-driven than character. All this deep character development has been in season 2, when we move on from :The Affair" to "The Situation." Frankly, since the show was called "The Affair" you were pretty much given that, and it lagged at times while N & A did their little mating dance. Now with that being a fait accompli, the character development is much more interesting.

It's funny that they thought they needed a plot device like a murder mystery to pump up suspense. This season, it's almost an irritating sidetrack.

[–] catbookss 9 years ago

Thanks for responding.

First, no one was asking you to qualify every single statement you made. Also, no one said you were advocating that women don't return to the workplace. One or more did note that women are given 6 weeks' maternity leave from their jobs, which presumably includes 8 or more hours a day of being away from their child or children.

Being there for your kid 100% of the time doesn't mean smothering them, making them the center of your universe, and making them feel guilty when they start to assert their own independence.

No one said that, or this:

just like I will never agree that staying away from one's kid is a great way to create a loving relationship.

Or this:

that staying 3 hours away from her kid for the majority of the week will have no long-term consequences for her and Joanie.

In fact, you yourself said that Alison was spending 60% of her time, per week, with Joanie, which by anyone's count is the majority of her time per week.

You yourself said your own mother didn't spend 100% of her time with you, as she was busy working and providing for you, as you were with your children, although fortunately for you, and your children, you were able to have a flexible work schedule. Not everyone is, including your own mother. But this is what you're expecting from Alison. Never mind she spent 100& of her time with her child up until she was about 1.5 months old, and even then only took one class for 6 weeks, during which either Noah or her nanny took care of her, which you ignore. These were your own words, no one else's.

As well as the fact that while Alison is away in Montawk 3 days a week, Noah who, as far as Joanie is concerned, is her father. and is taking care of her for those three days a week, and her nanny, providing stability, including being in an environment that is familiar and comfortable to her. You're disregarding this as well, which is an important point. Your own mother left you, as a toddler, in the care of others, who were at first strangers to you. I don't criticize her for that at all, and am sure she left you in the best care possible, but Alison is leaving Joanie's care 3 out of 4 days a week, to Noah and her nanny -- both of whom are intimately familiar to Joanie -- because she can.

To sum things up, I think you're being far too hard on Alison, and are being dishonest/defensive about what you've said and what others have said. It's impossible to have and honest and genuine discussion unless all parties are willing to be open and honest. Otherwise no growth or understanding is possible.

[–] NotForMeThanks 8 years ago

I completely agree, cat. I don't understand how Alison isn't bonding with Joanie just because she's working away from home for 3 days out of the week. She's still spending 4 whole days with her. Consider other mothers who work 5-6 days a week for 8-9 hours a day. What exactly is the difference? Alison is getting the same amount of hours with her daughter as if she was working the hours I mentioned for 5-6 days a week. I personally find it absolutely absurd that people are finding issues with this.

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] redalertdogs 8 years ago

Who cares?