Poor Joanie - Some Insights - The Affair (2014) Discussion

[–] koko-10 9 years ago

What has been so disturbing to me is how Alison could choose a restaurant over her kid AND allow a guy who she KNOWS is NOT the father (thanks Maury) raise her in her absence.

This bothered me, too. It appeared she had had absolutely no contact with her daughter while out in Montauk, no Skyping, Facetime, phone chats (as much as you can with a toddler) or singing, judging by how she reacted to seeing the latest video that Noah shot.

You're the expert, but it seems to me that someone who blames herself for being away from her son when he began drowning would be overly protective of her second child, wanting to have her near at all times. That would be overreacting, of course, but the mindset would be more understandable.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

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[–] sluggr-2 9 years ago

Alison had a really screwed up childhood based on what we have seen of her mom. We tend to view and compare our role as adults raising children based mostly on how we were raised. To the character of Alison, raising a daughter whose real dad is an unknown is actually par for the course. When I went to college, pretty much all of my friends had parents who were still married, but when my son attends college probably more than 505 of the students will be from homes with a divorce, and one really has to wonder how that will affect their perception of what "till death" really means.

I think my percentage of Chimp DNA is higher than others. Cleaver Greene

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[–] lamont-hard 9 years ago

The child's death was an accident it's no ones fault. In anger and frustration both parents can sometimes blame each other. I will say in the aftermath that at least Cole takes some responsibility in saying he would like a second chance at fatherhood and this time he would be more responsible. It's more difficult for Alison as she had a man who cared less of her pregnancy and admitted he did not want another child. This is when her downward spiral started with Jonie. [being pregnant]In addition to Noah not in to her pregnancy she is carrying a lot of guilt for breaking up Noah's marriage, him leaving his kids without a full time dad, crushing Cole in her trashy behavior the man whom is still her soul mate. Having to keep secret that as much as he [Cole] wants a second chance he will never have another child, this is how/why she became unglued at the wedding, she is silently watching him go through hel$. This is the main reason why she was no longer going to live a lie.

She just wants Cole as the dad and not Noah she just went about it wrong. She was finished with Noah after she knew way back when she saw her baby. I think she is distant from Jonie because she was biding her time until she corrects a life changing mistake. She is living a lie that caught up to her. She all but told Noah she's no longer into him by saying go to France and write your book alone. Also in going back to Mauntauk and telling him Jonie isn't your daughter. Jonie will be fine once she is home in Mauntauk where mommy and daddy belong. Alison isn't a bad mom, she just needs to find her footing.

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[–] LovesConfusingJoy 9 years ago

She's not choosing the restaurant over her kid! What a dumb thing to say.

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[–] ToHelenBackAgain 9 years ago

And sexist af. No one would say that about a man doing the same thing.

"Are you just saying that?" "Yes."

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[–] evi320 9 years ago

It's not dumb, or sexist. I've lived and worked in both Manhattan and Long Island. Montauk is a good 3-hour drive (no traffic) from Manhattan. The train, which is prominently featured, runs infrequently, and it is a LONG ride. It is impossible to parent a child from 3 hours away. So she did choose the restaurant over Joanie. Plain and simple.

As for sexism, I'm the first to tell female clients to run from men who claim that work forces them to stay away from their kids, for example, a dad who insisted he could not be with his kids in the Midwest because of a job in the Northeast. Bogus. Completely bogus. She didn't run, she got burned. This has nothing to do with gender. Men who refuse to parent their kids are crap parents too. Hope that makes you feel better about the sexism angle. :)

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[–] cineastral 9 years ago

I think it's because to her, her daughter represented two sources of pain: the loss of the earlier child, and her betrayal of Noah. Some people do not have the strength to face the pain. In this case, Alison chose to hide in Montauk as much as possible.

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[–] SapphEyeR 9 years ago

First it's medical school, then the restaurant business venture. I must be slow. I had no idea what was behind the sudden careerism in Alison at this bizarre time when she has a precious new baby. I was about to post the question. Thanks for answering it - her being afraid to bond with the child makes sense. Of course, she should fight her fears for the sake of the baby.

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[–] MBoleyn 9 years ago

I'm a therapist too, and I agree with your insights about the effect Alison's choices will have on Joanie.

It also seems like Alison is exploring her drive to individuate within her career, and create a life which isn't just defined by a partner or being a parent. She is trying to figure out who she is and utilize her intellect, which she obviously has if she is an RN. This is pretty normal given her age and history.

However, this drive is made complex by her past trauma and loss (abandonment by her mother, loss of her son, divorce; and now we find out about her complicity in Scott's death) and she has difficulty in regulating or processing her painful emotions, as evidenced by the cutting and her use of sex (I think she says she uses it to avoid talking to people).

She also has a very strong victim narrative, and she has been taken care of by the men in her life for a long time.

Now, with another relationship falling apart and the secrets around the birth of her daughter, it seems as though she is having trouble keeping it together.

If one is experiencing fear and pain, one of the classic shields is to avoid - to run away. Which is what she is doing by opening the restaurant in Montauk and spending time away from Noah and Joanie. She does this at times - moving back and forth between NYC and Montauk and the Spiritual Retreat when things get too heavy.

This time, the Lobster Roll allows her to believe that she is pursuing this path to develop her own sense of self as an individual (which may be true) but she is also just running away from all the mess of emotion and turmoil within her about her role as a partner and mother.

Also, if she has an abandonment narrative, her drive will be to make sure she has an intimate partner at all times - thus the moving between Noah and Cole (and sometimes Oscar, who fulfills her need for attention). I don't see her yet being willing to be a single woman and single mother, standing strong on her own.

We all do this at points in our lives - we think that we are making choices consciously for certain reasons but often these choices are reactions to unconscious emotions and beliefs that haven't been processed.

Instead of focusing on couples therapy, Alison and Noah would probably each benefit from extensive individual therapy. But if one is in emotional avoidance, that usually doesn't happen because it's such a huge commitment.

And of course, it would make much less fun television if both of the characters became healthy and functional! None of us would be able to relate, because we're all a bit dysfunctional (yes, even the therapists), right?

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[–] muireannwolfsbane 9 years ago

Evi320,MBoylen fantastic posts both of you, many kudos.

When I was watching the final two episodes, I kind of figured that Alison may have been afraid to bond with her child due to her brother Gabriel's death. Like you were saying it isn't an all that uncommon phenomenon. I remember once watching a reality show taking place in Britain, where in a father was afraid to bond with his daughters due to his previous sons death at a young age.

Such is likely the case with Alison. As to facing her fears it would be extremely difficult for Alison to do without extensive therapy.

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[–] theresaannkeith-82216 9 years ago

I agree about the individual therapy, ive made the same point before. I don't know if its possible for couples therapy to solve an unhealthy marriage when the individuals are themselves unhealthy.

I guess i have an odd viewpoint regarding Joanie. IMO, her behavior toward Joanie isnt as bad as everyone else thinks it is. Joanie was 18 mo at the time of the wedding. Noah said that they had a tough summer. So I'm estimating that she has been going back and forth for 2 mo., 3 at the most. So Joanie was 15-16 mo,not an infant when it began. Bonding begins at birth, and the most vital bonding occurs the first twelve months of life. Alison had ample time to bond, she was there daily for 15 mo. Yes, she attended school, but dont most mothers go back to work after six weeks? Plus, she didn't desert her child. She is gone only three days out of seven. She has four days to do nothing except be with her daughter. Probably the child gets MORE time and undivided attention from Alison. Not very different from RN's that work 3 12hr shifts in a row, four days off, and have children. On those three days, it's working and sleeping, not really spending more than an hour or two with the kids.

As long as she is consistent with days on and off, so Joanie isn't left not knowing when she will ever see her mom, i don't see why it has to be so harmful. What about joint custody, and parents who travel as a job requirement? Do those parents not love their children? How is Alison worse? Plus, Joanie is staying in her home thats familiar to her, not being shuffled, which is good.

I wouldn't choose this myself, but I feel Alison's behavior is being exaggerated on every level. I agree that her parenting style could be affected by her upbringing, but Alison never knew where her mother was, not the case with Joanie.

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[–] catbookss 9 years ago

I guess i have an odd viewpoint regarding Joanie. IMO, her behavior toward Joanie isnt as bad as everyone else thinks it is. Joanie was 18 mo at the time of the wedding. Noah said that they had a tough summer. So I'm estimating that she has been going back and forth for 2 mo., 3 at the most. So Joanie was 15-16 mo,not an infant when it began. Bonding begins at birth, and the most vital bonding occurs the first twelve months of life. Alison had ample time to bond, she was there daily for 15 mo. Yes, she attended school, but dont most mothers go back to work after six weeks? Plus, she didn't desert her child. She is gone only three days out of seven. She has four days to do nothing except be with her daughter. Probably the child gets MORE time and undivided attention from Alison. Not very different from RN's that work 3 12hr shifts in a row, four days off, and have children. On those three days, it's working and sleeping, not really spending more than an hour or two with the kids.

As long as she is consistent with days on and off, so Joanie isn't left not knowing when she will ever see her mom, i don't see why it has to be so harmful. What about joint custody, and parents who travel as a job requirement? Do those parents not love their children? How is Alison worse? Plus, Joanie is staying in her home thats familiar to her, not being shuffled, which is good.

I'm in this minority, and also think Alison's behavior towards Joanie is being vastly exaggerated.

As you point out, Joanie is already 16 or so months old by the time Alison's spending 3 days a week in Montauk working on the LR to get it ready for the wedding reception and the opening. She knows Joanie is safe with Noah and the nanny. The other four days a week she comes home and is there with Joanie.

As you also point out, most professionally employed women go back to work after 6 weeks, and it is no different than say an RN's working hours, or joint custody, or someone who has to travel for their work.

How is this so terrible?

We've been shown Alison bonding with Joanie a number of times, so we know she loves her. When Noah said he wanted to go to France, she said she'd take Joan full time while we was gone, and could do it because she'd have Gigi there to help out when she needed to work at the LR.

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[–] theresaannkeith 9 years ago

I'm glad you agree.

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[–] centrd 9 years ago

Another great analysis in addition to evi320's original one. I like how you pointed out the victim/abandonment mentalities that Alison's been operating from for quite a while. Abandonment issues would explain why she's been pursuing Noah so hard, even when they're not that happy. As long as she's afraid of losing him, she'll stay engaged. But once she's secure with him, she may not find him as desirable anymore. It's typical of someone with low self-esteem and abandonment issues to think that if she can keep an unavailable man, that it will prove she's lovable. But once he's actually available, then she starts thinking there must be something wrong with him if he wants someone as screwed up as her. Quite the catch 22 and hard to establish any kind of healthy relationship coming from that.

Alison also seems to have some strong avoidant or escapist tendencies. You mention her running away, which she has done repeatedly. She hasn't yet been able to face her problems head on, her son's death, her alienation from her husband, etc. Her solution has always been to run away or shut down completely when overwhelmed. We've seen that repeatedly. And now her latest actions are just more of the same pattern.

I'd really like to see her get with a good therapist and actually become aware of the ways she copes and her self-destructive tendencies.(If she were a real person, that is.) :)

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[–] evi320 9 years ago

LOVE LOVE LOVE your insights!! Thank you! I've said it before and I will say it again - NONE of these people should have gotten into relationships after the big mess that happened in Season 1. But they did, there are kids involved, hence the fallout. Really enjoyed reading your post - thank you for sharing your thoughts!

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[–] KelRen 9 years ago

Thank you for your professional two cents! This bothered me too, but you really helped hit the nail on the head...it's like actually being in therapy!

All kidding aside, though, this show has been a real roller coaster for me. I feel like I'm always trying to root for Alison, yet subtly hate her at the same time.

Although they're completely different shows, in some ways it reminds me of Mad Men, just in that eventually I'm not rooting for ANY of the adults, but I feel horribly sad for the kids.

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[–] ToHelenBackAgain 9 years ago

These characters are written with extraordinary inconsistency, completely different personalities from one season to another and sometimes even from one episode to another.

Any insight is rendered impossible by this.

"Are you just saying that?" "Yes."

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[–] goldenskies 9 years ago

I think Alison's parenting of Joanie has been quite bad. She asks Noah about her like she's had no contact. He says "she misses you". Her reply, "of course, I miss her too" sounds like a friend they both know. No truth about her dad when Cole would be the most dedicated dad ever?

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[–] ToHelenBackAgain 9 years ago

Would he? I mean, Cole didn't watch Gabriel when he was in the water, and then he blamed Alison for that.

I don't think anyone on this show is a good parent. That's one of the few things that has been consistent. All of them who have or have had kids are just terrible at it.

"Are you just saying that?" "Yes."

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[–] evi320 9 years ago

I specialize in working with children and teenagers. An emotionally/physically neglectful parent who later says, "I really missed you (while I was prioritizing things other than you)" just doesn't cut it with them. Children have an incredible capacity for forgiveness. But a lame-ass excuse like "I really missed you (while I was prioritizing things other than you)" is likely to be met with serious side-eye. Parents have to own it. When they do, forgiveness is often forthcoming. But when they don't, forget it.

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[–] sarazen25 9 years ago

Yes! I thoroughly agree, however I think that is part of the point. I've been watching this (and lurking on these message boards) from the standpoint of being a writer, for what that's worth.

What I think is going on here, (and I know that this has been addressed some in other posts, I just see it as intended to be viewed to a further degree) is that the creators are telling this story through unreliable narrators. I think what they are trying to get us to see most is just how colored our individual versions of reality really are. So what we see from each individual characters perspective says way more about them as an individual than it does about the people they are interacting with.

Hrm... looking at what I just wrote, I'm not sure I'm elucidating what's in my head very well. I should bite the bullet, start a thread and see if I can tackle it that way.

Anyway, I've loved reading your posts around here and I'm glad you have taken the time to share your thoughts. They are very good thoughts.

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[–] evi320 9 years ago

I enjoyed reading your post as well. You are so right about the unreliable narrators. I have mentioned before that I like this technique, because in real life, this is what happens. People will recount an incident from a point of view that puts them in the best light. That is what we have seen the past two seasons. great insights.

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[–] LovesConfusingJoy 9 years ago

I think it's pretty clear they're gonna show her having difficulty bonding with the child.

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[–] WinkerAugusta 9 years ago

evi320,

Thank you for sharing your skills as a therapist to give these insights. It is a great discussion that you started - and all of the comments are wonderful reads!

In terms of Alison and Joanie -- what do you (or anyone) think of Alison overall?

There have been several discussions regarding Alison's childlike behavior on this board. However, it does not appear as though Alison is innocent or naive. Instead, it often seems as though Alison is a self indulgent, petulant, self seeking, prevaricator character.

She was dealing drugs with Cole before Gabriel was conceived. Cole remembers Alison reminiscing over a drug run that took in the their lives pre-Gabriel during Cole’s POV of delivering Alison her things to Yvonne and Robert’s boat house.

Alison tells Noah that she went back to Montauk and slept with Cole after Yvonne and Robert did not want her there any longer. We do not know the truth about that.

Yvonne and Robert – it can be argued that they were gracious after being contacted by Harry about having an up and coming author named Noah Solloway live and write in their “Writers’ Boathouse” – when the truth was Noah was homeless after telling his wife that he is in love with another woman, needed a place to live, and showed up with his mistress, Alison, and all the turmoil associated with a man leaving his wife, leaving four children, not having a place to live, and the breakups of two marriages. Yvonne appeared to be interested in facilitating writers by opening her boathouse for “starving artist” to have secure place to concentrate solely on their writing. Yvonne’s “Writers’ Boathouse” appeared to be a rent free comfortable location where publishers would send promising up and coming authors to live, write, and be free of the everyday worries of life (i.e., paying bills).

Alison never appeared to view Yvonne and Robert as gracious. Alison is offended when her employer expresses that skimpy shorts are inappropriate dress attire for work. Alison’s reply to the former is “well it’s going to be like really hot today.” Alison is not thinking of Robert when Alison is using her hands to massage and rub his inner thighs and chooses this type of environment (which is supposed to be medical – a Rehab Nurse and Client) to tell Robert a detailed erotic and seductive story.

Alison at Yvonne and Roberts illustrates Alison’s self indulgence – her inability or unwillingness to think of others. Alison runs away from Yvonne and Robert with what appears to be the mindset "it is all Noah's fault that Yvonne and Robert started being mean to me for no reason."

It appears as though Cole and Luissa wedding is supposed to be a professional catered event by TLR. It is during this environment that Alison chooses to tell Noah “Joanie is not your baby.” It is Cole and Luissa’s wedding / TLR professional catered event – Alison is there in a working capacity – as are Oscar and any other TLR employees. When Alison tells Jeffries “we were all at the wedding because when it comes down to it we are like family” it is not really the truth. The truth is Alison was at Cole’s wedding because she purchased TLR with Cole and Luissa – Alison has been living at TLR a great deal to get TLR ready for TLR's grand opening – Alison is working at Cole’s wedding as TLR catered the wedding (Alison is serving mini lobster roles, making sure the sound system is working, clearing tables). When Alison approaches Scotty and Scotty starts talking about having a month of Rehab left then he will be ready to be “cut in” – Alison could not say something such as “the grand opening is not happening for weeks – it is exciting to see Lockhart in front of Lobster Roll – excuse me there are a couple of guests here with food allergies I need to make sure that they are getting the proper food – plus it’s Labor Day and I always light a candle for Gabriel – it’s good to see you.” Instead, Alison makes the situation escalate horribly by telling Cole “Scotty is asking about when he will be officially “cut it” into TLR.

Why?

We do not know what type of mother Alison was with Gabriel. We know that Gabriel drowned, threw up a lot of water, uncharacteristically wet himself – yet Alison puts him to bed by himself and shuts the door. Why wouldn’t she take him to the hospital – or at the minimum stay up with Gabriel looking after him the entire night. Alison is his mother and a Pediatric RN. Wouldn't the majority of mothers respond to this by rushing their child to a hospital? Wouldn't the majority of mothers accomplish the previous if it meant knocking over any person that stood in her way, stealing a vehicle, and insisting that all hospital medical staff members stop what they are doing to treat their child? We do not know what type of father Cole was to Gabriel. However, in "getting to know" Cole and Alison - Which character has shown preeminent acumen (in the past, present, future timelines) Cole or Alison?

When Alison is at court the morning of Noah’s arraignment (the morning after Noah’s previous night’s arrest) – Alison does not look comfortable with Joanie. Joanie looks more at ease when she sees Cole (apparently for the first time). We know right before Noah is arrested – Alison is asking Noah “my day tomorrow is jammed. Can you be here when Julianne leaves?” Is Julianne another caretaker for Joanie? The full time Nanny we see is named Gigi – Gigi is the Nanny that Alison is planning on moving to Montauk to take care of Joanie as Alison wants to continue her work at TLR into the fall season.

If Julianne and Gigi are both caretakers of Joanie – it appears as though Alison’s time spent with Joanie is limited. Again, Alison’s interaction with Joanie at Noah’s arraignment shows, IMO, a woman taking care of child that she does not know. In fact, I do not know many mothers that would take their toddler to court especially when it has been presented to viewers that Joanie has caretakers (Gigi and possibly Julianne).

Does Alison bring Joanie to Noah’s arraignment hoping that Cole will see Joanie?

Is Alison showing that she is a petulant prevaricator - a person that has not grown, changed for the better, learned from the past - when brining Joanie to court as Alison wants Cole to see Joanie at this time (as Alison has a self seeking reason for Cole to see Joanie at Noah's arraignment -- it appears until this time Alison has made certain that Cole has not seen Joanie).

Is it possible that "Poor Joanie" could also translate into "God Bless the Child that Ends Up In Alison's Care / as Alison for a Mother" given Alison's personality?

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[–] muireannwolfsbane 9 years ago

In regards to your post I think of Alison as a bird with a broken wing. She's very, very, messed up and in need of a lot of psychological care. The loss of Gabriel was a big blow to her and we only see the aftermath. As to Gabriel's secondary drowning it is something that is incredibly hard to spot let alone diagnose and even experienced doctors can miss it. I don't know why everyone thinks that just because she as a pediatric RN who dealt mostly with Cancer
patients would be able to spot since she wasn't an emergency pediatrics RN.

And besides Cole was the one watching him what about him? Why in gods name does she get the blame and he does no wrong? The guy burned down a house.

Besides I've noticed that Alison has a tendency to allow the men in her life to control her to a point.

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[–] WinkerAugusta 9 years ago

In regards to your post I think of Alison as a bird with a broken wing. She's very, very, messed up and in need of a lot of psychological care. The loss of Gabriel was a big blow to her and we only see the aftermath. As to Gabriel's secondary drowning it is something that is incredibly hard to spot let alone diagnose and even experienced doctors can miss it. I don't know why everyone thinks that just because she as a pediatric RN who dealt mostly with Cancer
patients would be able to spot since she wasn't an emergency pediatrics RN.

And besides Cole was the one watching him what about him? Why in gods name does she get the blame and he does no wrong? The guy burned down a house.

Besides I've noticed that Alison has a tendency to allow the men in her life to control her to a point. Posted by muireannwolfsbane

muireannwolfsbane,

You make several valid points.

In response to Gabriel's death

"I've been thinking about the night Gabriel died. What happened? I don't remember - it started to slip away from me. I remember a party on a beach. I remember a bond fire. I remember all the kids were in the water, and, Gabriel was in the water. I thought he was going to get cold when he gets out so I went to get a blanket from the house. Cole was watching him. And, by the time I got back they were pulling him out of the water. I knew exactly what to do. I pumped his chest. He spit out so much water. And then he sat up and he hugged me. I just wanted to get him away from there away from everyone else calm him down. But while as I was carrying him back he wet himself first time in years. I thought about calling you (the doctor) I did (think about calling you the doctor) but it was your granddaughter's wedding. I didn't want to interrupt you. He just seemed so tired. He was falling asleep on my shoulder. And I just, I thought, he had such a long day I'll just let him sleep. And then if he's feeling bad I'll take him to the .... so, I gave him a bath and I put him to bed." Alison Season 1 Episode 9

Gabriel was drowning. Gabriel was under water for a significant amount of time. As a result, Gabriel was denied oxygen causing lack of oxygen flow resulting in Gabriel's life sustaining organs - major body systems to shut down. Seconds after Gabriel was denied oxygen as Gabriel was in the process of drowning Gabriel's major body systems started to shut down.

Gabriel was water rescued with respiratory impairment (we know this as Gabriel required chest compressions) after being submerged in water.

Gabriel's drowning was suspended when Gabriel was no longer submerged under water. At this point, Gabriel is saved from dying under the water and has suffered a non-fatal drowning. Non-fatal drowning does not mean that Gabriel has not drowned. It means that Gabriel did not die of respiratory impairment when submerged in water.

Gabriel was not pulled out of the water conscious, talking, crying, coughing.

Gabriel required life saving intervention to prevent him from dying on the beach due to drowning.

Chest compressions were administered by Alison. Gabriel started to "spit out so much water."

Gabriel was still drowning although he was not submerged under water.

Gabriel wetting himself, Gabriel being "so tired" are both signs of dry drowning.

The worst thing you can do with a child who may have inhaled water is put them to bed (Berchelmann, MD at Children's Hospital St. Louis Dry Drowning What Every Parent Needs to Know http://www.lidptf.org/drysecondary-drowning )

Gabriel died -- he was taken out of the water, had his chest pumped, spit out water -- ultimately Alison put her drowning child in bed and went to sleep herself.

Gabriel needed to be taken to the hospital, treated by a medical team, given an xray, oxygen, IV fluids, and monitored in the hospital overnight by medical professionals.

Gabriel could have lived. How did Alison a Pediatric RN not take Gabriel to the hospital? Any person that was drowning, removed from the water, requires chest compressions should be taken to the nearest hospital. I would think that most mothers - even if they are RNs, MDs, LPNs would take their child to the hospital themselves or by ambulance after their child drowned.

How could Alison put Gabriel to sleep? I would think most mothers after having their drowning child pulled from the water - even if they thought "my child looks fine - my child is tired it has been a long day" would stay up all night watching over their child.

I do not want to blame any parent for an accidental death of child - a child that is playing in a driveway the parent or a neighbor backs out of the driveway and over the child by accident causing fatal injuries; a child that is playing in the house slips and falls hitting their head on a doorknob causing fatal injuries.

IMO, Mothers have the toughest job on earth. I pray that every Mother has a partner/husband that helps and supports their wife. IMO, I do not think that a Mother is ever at rest. The majority of Mothers - the Mothers in my life - are always thinking/worrying/working at all times for the safety, health, and well being of their child(ren). The Mothers in my life I am certain would have rushed "Gabriel" to the hospital. The Mothers in my life would build, equip, and staff a hospital to save their child.

Cole may have said "we should take Gabriel to the hospital." Cherry told Alison that Gabriel should have gone to the hospital - but Alison would not listen - and Cherry has spent years forgiving herself for not making Alison take Gabriel to the hospital.

Perhaps Alison said, "I'm a RN - I work at our local hospital - Gabriel is fine." We do not know. We do know that Gabriel was drowning - removed from the water - required chest compressions - coughed up / spit up so much water / wet himself / was very tired. We also know that Alison is a RN - as a RN Alison should have known that Gabriel was drowning - that something was wrong with her child - her child was not acting like himself - her child had been pulled out of the water drowning not long before she is putting him to bed.

Fathers are wonderful - however, I do think many fathers look to the mother (and trust the mother) when a child is sick. I wish Cole would have taken Gabriel to the hospital - I wish that Cherry would have taken Gabriel to the hospital. Alison is Gabriel's Mother - Alison ultimately put her drowning child to bed.

I do not understand how Alison could have put Gabriel to bed after Gabriel was drowning - pulled from the water - required chest compressions.

muireannwolfsbane,

The points you bring up about Cole are interesting - and should be explored. Where was Cole in all of this? However, I do not understand why Alison did not phone for an ambulance after giving Gabriel chest compressions - and/or take Gabriel to the hospital herself. More so, after going through the events on the beach that night -- why didn't Alison stay up to look over Gabriel all night?

Hopefully you will share more of your opinions / thoughts. Again, you bring up an important part of Gabriel's Drowning: Cole.

Also, hopefully Evi320 will be willing to offer insight on Alison's reasonings for not getting Gabriel medical attention / not staying up all night to look after Gabriel after the events on the beach regarding Gabriel's drowning.

muireannwolfsbane, evi320 - everyone that has commented in this thread has given insightful comments / thoughts -- comments / thoughts that are important factors in understanding these characters' personalities, behavior, mental state in a greater capacity.

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[–] evi320 9 years ago

What a great post, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think the whole issue of Alison failing to get help for Gabriel is just a huge example of the monumental mistakes we all make as parents - but hers just had devastating consequences. We tell ourselves everything is ok, when it is not. Most of the time, everything works out ok. In her case, and is some rare tragic cases, it does not.

Small children are so vulnerable. Who knows, perhaps another child could have experienced the same thing and lived? That's the medical end of things, which of course is not my specialty.

One psychological insight as a result of this, though. I think sometimes people punish themselves with their relationships as the result of something they feel they did wrong. There was a suicide in my family well before I was born, so I was born into the aftermath of it. I can think of at least one family member who took on that terrible self-blame that tends to occur after a suicide, caught up in the "what if I had?" and "maybe ifs" - and ended up in relationships where partners told her she was a terrible person, she was awful, as a reflection perhaps of what she felt about herself. Of course it was not true.

This is my thought about Alison. That terrible, terrible self-blame a mother would have after what happened to Gabriel. Let's face it, his death was likely preventable, but it happened anyway. So she goes on making destructive decisions as a sort of validation of that natural self-loathing that results.

Crap, I sound like a damn therapist. Sorry. :)

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[–] catbookss 9 years ago

In terms of Alison and Joanie -- what do you (or anyone) think of Alison overall?

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with Alison in terms of Joanie. Joanie was already 15-16 months old when Alison decided to buy the LR with Cole, was in Montauk working on it only 3 days a week, and home with her for 4. Before that she was going to class for 6 weeks.

If Alison were a man, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. Everyone would think he was being a good father, trying to make his future life better for his child by working to provide for Joanie. At this point, Alison and Noah are not married. Alison has no guarantee that they will be married and she may have to provide for Joanie herself, alone. She already senses something's not right between she and Noah, and he senses the same, but neither are willing to face it.

She was dealing drugs with Cole before Gabriel was conceived. Cole remembers Alison reminiscing over a drug run that took in the their lives pre-Gabriel during Cole’s POV of delivering Alison her things to Yvonne and Robert’s boat house.

I doubt Cole's version more than Alison's because he was coked up, had been drinking, and was very sleep-deprived. Regardless, the funny thing is, until you said this, I'd always assumed it was a day they had gone running together, not doing a drug run!

Alison never appeared to view Yvonne and Robert as gracious.

I don't see where you get that.

Alison is offended when her employer expresses that skimpy shorts are inappropriate dress attire for work. Alison’s reply to the former is “well it’s going to be like really hot today.”

She wasn't offended, she was surprised and taken aback. Yvonne was sharp and rude to her from the moment Alison walked into her office, and she didn't know why. The job was casual -- being Yvonne's personal assistant, in their home, not a place of business. It was going to be a hot day, so Alison dressed for a hot day. Yvonne's real problem wasn't with the coffee Alison brought in, or the shorts she was wearing.

Yvonne's real problem was that, inexplicably, a seasoned head of a major publishing company, who regularly had novelists stay in her cabin to write, assumed a character depicted in a work of fiction was biographical.

Alison is not thinking of Robert when Alison is using her hands to massage and rub his inner thighs and chooses this type of environment (which is supposed to be medical – a Rehab Nurse and Client) to tell Robert a detailed erotic and seductive story.

She was rubbing his thighs, but not his inner thighs. (Why do so many people make things worse, far more suspicious than they are?) She was doing PT with him. Robert had asked her something or another about when she and Noah met, and she was answering. I did think it was weird she revealed as much as she did, but it wasn't a detailed or seductive story.

Alison at Yvonne and Roberts illustrates Alison’s self indulgence – her inability or unwillingness to think of others. Alison runs away from Yvonne and Robert with what appears to be the mindset "it is all Noah's fault that Yvonne and Robert started being mean to me for no reason."

I don't agree. Robert all but told her to not let the door hit her when she left. She had to leave. She knew the reason Robert and Yvonne's attitude had changed towards her so abruptly was because they'd read Noah's manuscript. Up until then, everything had been fine. Once she looked at the manuscript, she really knew why, and yes, that was Noah's fault.

It is during this environment that Alison chooses to tell Noah “Joanie is not your baby.” It is Cole and Luissa’s wedding / TLR professional catered event – Alison is there in a working capacity

Alison didn't have much choice. Scotty and she had just argued, with a very drunk Scotty telling her that someone's going to tell Cole, and it'd be either him or Alison. A few minutes later Alison heard Scotty at the mic making an announcement. She had every reason to think that after his song he'd tell Cole about the baby.

When Alison approaches Scotty and Scotty starts talking about having a month of Rehab left then he will be ready to be “cut in” – Alison could not say something such as “the grand opening is not happening for weeks – it is exciting to see Lockhart in front of Lobster Roll – excuse me there are a couple of guests here with food allergies I need to make sure that they are getting the proper food – plus it’s Labor Day and I always light a candle for Gabriel – it’s good to see you.” Instead, Alison makes the situation escalate horribly by telling Cole “Scotty is asking about when he will be officially “cut it” into TLR.

Why?

When Alison first approached Scotty it was because he was standing next to the bar, eyeing the liquor. So she greeted him and offered him a soda. He hadn't said anything about being cut in, that isn't what Alison said to Cole, and she didn't escalate anything -- quite the reverse.

Scotty was telling Alison about how thinking about the LR was kept him going in rehab when it got really bad. He told her it was "like a beacon of hope" for him. Then Cole walked up, pleasantries were exchanged, Cole asked Alison "Everything okay?" And she replied "Yeah, he was just saying how important this place was during rehab."

How is this escalating anything horribly? She was trying to warn Cole what was up, and let him know to go easy on the topic with Scotty because it was so important to him during rehab.

We know that Gabriel drowned, threw up a lot of water, uncharacteristically wet himself – yet Alison puts him to bed by himself and shuts the door. Why wouldn’t she take him to the hospital – or at the minimum stay up with Gabriel looking after him the entire night.

Because hindsight gives one 20/20 vision. It's something she blames herself for over and over again, to the point of cutting herself, to the point of trying to drown herself. Secondary drowning is rare, and difficult to detect. Even the doctor told her that even if she had brought him to the hospital he doesn't know if Gabriel could have been saved or not.

We've seen Joanie and Alison together many times, and she looks perfectly comfortable. She was fussing that morning in the court hall, as babies do.

Is Alison showing that she is a petulant prevaricator - a person that has not grown, changed for the better, learned from the past - when brining Joanie to court as Alison wants Cole to see Joanie at this time (as Alison has a self seeking reason for Cole to see Joanie at Noah's arraignment

We don't know why Alison brought her with her to court that morning. Maybe it was Gigi's day off, maybe Gigi was sick. Who knows. We certainly don't know she brought her because she wants Cole to see Joanie, or that she had any self-serving reason for it.

We do know that Alison acted commendably in not blowing up Cole's life once he told her he was happy and was engaged to Luisa. We know in the conversation with him on the beach right before the wedding, she did the right thing in how she counseled him, because she loves him and wants him to be happy.

I don't get all of this demonizing of Alison. She has her flaws to be sure, but she has not been shown to be a calculating, horrible person.

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[–] evi320 9 years ago

I actually really kind of like Alison - I think it's interesting how she is viewed as "sex," by Noah, and by Cole as someone that he is alternately repelled by and attracted to, by Helen with pure disdain, etc. She's an intriguing character.

I'm always interested in the symbolism of Alison's walking and riding bikes - it's a strong, recurring theme. It would make sense if her son had died in a car accident, however I'd love to know the reasoning behind it, given that he died in the water, therefore it is likely unrelated to his death. I used to live in Suffolk County, on Long Island. That is not a place that is easily walkable. Things are spread out.

And your last line is totally correct - I think all of these kids, not just Joanie (Noah's too, I mean), are going to need to sort a lot out down the line.

I'm coming to terms with my own parents' imperfections - the things they did well, the selfish things they did. It's a long process. It's like you love them to bits, but then sometimes you're like wtf?

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[–] Liz01219 9 years ago

I really couldnn't get over Alison's relationship with Joanie.

I lost a child not a 5 yr old but a one month old. Completely devastated.
I had a second child a few years later and was overjoyed. I never felt he was the replacement, just overjoyed that I had him.

Noah has held baby Joanie more often than Alison has.

She comes home and he has his kids and he's cooking I believe while holding Joanie. I don't remember even if she greeted her other than maybe touching her leg.

In the scene with Scotty outside of her apartment, I don't think she had just gotten in from Montauk, not that early in the day with a busy restaurent that she was co owner of. IF she had been home she couldn't even walk Joanie, Gigi was coming home from walking her.

I would imagine that if given a bonus Gigi would have gone to Montauk for the 3 days that Alison would be working out there, yet, when Noah questioned Alison "what about Joanie" she replied she has Gigi.

I think she still loves Cole, and became involved with Noah as a way to help her forget about the death of Gabrielle. Noah became sex to her, as she did to him as he described in her book.

In Season 1 she said she was going to give herself until she reached 35 to be in the same place that Cole was, regarding the death of their son. I don't know if she can't bond with Joanie because she hasn't gotten over Gabrielle yet, or because everytime she looks at Joanie she sees Cole and is denying him his child. Possibly to because she is living a lie with Noah everyday.

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[–] WinkerAugusta 9 years ago

Dear Liz01219,

Thank you. How brave and thoughtful of you to share you life by writing about your children. There are no words of comfort I can offer to you. I will pray that in pain you can find joy - that in bereavement you are given peace - when searching for ansers of ruination that you are given an inspirit of solace.

How long has been between Cole's wedding night and Noah's arrest? At the time of Noah's arrest both Alison and Noah know about Joanie. It makes no sense why they would keep Joanie from Cole - Noah wants to go to France to write and Alison wants to live and work in Montauk at TLR apartment. Cole having joint custody of Joanie should not be a problem for Noah and Alison.

Alison brings 18 plus month old Joanie to Noah's arraignment - why? So Cole is to be sure to see Joanie? Is this Alison's reason? We know that Joanie has a full time Nanny and could have stayed with Gigi the morning after Noah's arrest. Court is no place for a toddler. Watching Alison with Joanie at court - Alison looks very uncomfortable with Joanie.

Is Alison keeping Joanie from Cole to be cruel - does Alison enjoy punishing Cole?

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[–] Liz01219 9 years ago

Winker,

Thanks for those kind words.

Look at that courtroom scene again.
Cole KNOWS. If you watch it again, Noah is led away in handcuffs, he looks back and notices Cole looking at him. As soon as Noah is gone Cole fixes his eyes on Alison, looks away briefly, and then looks back again.
I think at that point the lightbulb went off, and I saw him actually swallow hard too.

It's hard to tell unless my memory is off, just how much time had passed since Cole's wedding and Noah's arrest.
All we had ever seen was that they became engaged, she left him for Montauk, slept with Cole, went to her mother's retreat and told Noah who found her she was pregnant.

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[–] koko-10 9 years ago

In the scene with Scotty outside of her apartment, I don't think she had just gotten in from Montauk, not that early in the day with a busy restaurent that she was co owner of. IF she had been home she couldn't even walk Joanie, Gigi was coming home from walking her.

In that scene, she was just returning home after walking out of her college class early because she decided to quit. That's why Gigi was surprised to see her at that time. It was well before she ever got involved with the restaurant, in fact it was when Scotty first pitched the idea to her.

So sorry for your loss; what a heartbreak.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

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[–] Liz01219 9 years ago

koko

Thank you I forgot all about that she had just walked out of her class.
I love posting about this show, unfortunately I need to think before I TYPE!

Thanks for your kind words. The loss never goes away, you just learn to adjust so that you can function.

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[–] WinkerAugusta 9 years ago

Look at that courtroom scene again.
Cole KNOWS. If you watch it again, Noah is led away in handcuffs, he looks back and notices Cole looking at him. As soon as Noah is gone Cole fixes his eyes on Alison, looks away briefly, and then looks back again.
I think at that point the lightbulb went off, and I saw him actually swallow hard too.

It's hard to tell unless my memory is off, just how much time had passed since Cole's wedding and Noah's arrest.
All we had ever seen was that they became engaged, she left him for Montauk, slept with Cole, went to her mother's retreat and told Noah who found her she was pregnant. Post by Liz01219

Liz,

I feel bad for Cole as Cole should be able to have a relationship with his child. I don't know why Alison (for 18 months) and Noah (from the time period of Cole's wedding to "the present)" would keep the truth from him. However, I do not understand why Cole would not have done the math himself. Cole knows when he was with Alison. Does this show just how much Cole trusts Alison - Cole feels as though Alison would never keep a child from him?

If Cole has realized that Joanie is his at Noah's arraignment - what do you think Cole has done with this information? Do you think that Cole has confronted Alison and started having a relationship with Joanie?

The night of Cole's wedding - Noah's POV shows Noah telling Alison "I never want to see you again," and then taking off with Helen. Alison's POV - shows Noah at the reception trying to get Alison involved in conversations (i.e. the conversation about The Descent Moutauk Tour: Visit all the places NS wrote about in his book - TLR is on the tour too).

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[–] Liz01219 9 years ago

winkler

"If Cole has realized that Joanie is his at Noah's arraignment"

I think it's possible that he does know.
When Cole sees Joanie for the first time, he did say "she's 18 months old" now, correct?
Or did he ask Alison how old she was? I don't remember.

If he knew her exact age I find that a bit odd. Most men, with the exception of their own children, I doubt would know the exact age of their niece or nephew, let alone know the exact age of someone they hadn't seen in over 2 yrs.

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[–] WinkerAugusta 9 years ago

In that scene, she was just returning home after walking out of her college class early because she decided to quit. That's why Gigi was surprised to see her at that time. It was well before she ever got involved with the restaurant, in fact it was when Scotty first pitched the idea to her. Posted by Koko-10

Koko10, Yes, that is how it happened. Remember we see Alison eating yogurt and tossing her finished yogurt cup into the trash (carefree - without a care in the world) before she is approached by SL.

By this time, Alison has not told Noah about Joanie. I do wonder what would have happened if Alison had told Noah (after SL approaches Alison).

I think that it is wrong that Joanie is being kept from Cole - however, would Cole be able to force a paternity test? Assuming Alison is fearful that SL will tell Cole "Joanie is your daughter." I doubt such an issue would have led to Cole wanting anything else to do with Alison - much less purchasing TLR with Alison.

It would be interesting to see Cole's POV on Alison being so active at TLR. She was supposed to be a silent partner - now she has moved into the apartment about TLR. What if Cole and Luissa wanted to live there? On Luissa wedding day, Luissa is knocking on TLR apartment door saying "is it still okay if I get ready in here?" It seems as though The Bride would have the apartment to get ready with her mother and bridemaids on her Wedding Day, correct? Cole told - and really seemed to believe - Luissa that TLR would allow them to move back to Montauk and Luissa would have a restaurant of her own to run. We see Alison telling Noah 'Cole and I have an idea about keeping TLR open year round" - where is Luissa in all of this?

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[–] JW-7 9 years ago

where is Luissa in all of this

Nowhere, mon frere, as George Carlin used to say. She signed off on the deal and her having a say in the running of the business was never part of it.

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[–] catbookss 9 years ago

Liz, I'm so very sorry for your loss. … Words fail, and I simply can't imagine the devastation, except for a very dear friend who lost her early-20s son a few years ago, so I know a little. *hugs*

The scene where she comes home and Noah is cooking while holding Joanie is her POV. She immediately goes over and coos at Joanie. In Noah's POV he comes home while Alison is alone in the kitchen, just finishing washing the dishes.

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[–] evi320 9 years ago

I am so sorry about the child you lost. My mom lost a child who was 4 months old. I was born 3 years later. I am eternally grateful that she parented me not as her replacement child, but as one who, as you said, she was overjoyed to have. I have known replacement children, and it's a terrible burden for them to carry.

I agree about Alison and Noah - I wonder if he was an escape for her, a rebound of sorts. Perhaps the relationship with him became her replacement child. It would explain the distance from Joanie and the very unrealistic choices made by her and Noah. Food for thought.

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