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I Am A Conspiracy Theorist And I Just Watched This Movie


I inquired about this movie yesterday, because I was fearful that it would be too offensive for me. A couple of nice posters answered me, so I decided to take my chances.

I do think the movie is worth watching IF you have an interest in the Kennedy Assassination. Some of the sequences are very good, and I enjoyed the vintage news coverage.

I do think that the movie takes the position that Oswald's guilt is a foregone conclusion. Marguerite Oswald, his mother, is portrayed as a lunatic. Lee himself comes across as creepy; in real life, he protested his innocence and claimed to be a patsy. In the movie, he says little, and looks guilty.

It has been pretty well established that Lee Oswald worked for the CIA and/or the FBI. The day jobs he held were "cover" jobs so that he wouldn't arouse suspicion. Oswald was actually given the job at the Book Depository by his CIA handler. So what his mother says about him seems to be absolutely true. However, the way she says it, it sounds like she's saying her son is an alien from outer space, and she does not sound credible.

I know that Tom Hanks made this movie, and that Tom Hanks believes wholeheartedly in Oswald's guilt. So I'm not surprised, I'm just a little disappointed.

Also--the viewer does not get a good look at Abraham Zapruder's film. I wonder why? Maybe it would show that the last shot CAME FROM THE FRONT.

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It has been pretty well established that Lee Oswald worked for the CIA and/or the FBI. The day jobs he held were "cover" jobs so that he wouldn't arouse suspicion. Oswald was actually given the job at the Book Depository by his CIA handler. So what his mother says about him seems to be absolutely true. However, the way she says it, it sounds like she's saying her son is an alien from outer space, and she does not sound credible.


Really? Who's going with the foregone conclusions now? I love how CTs just LOVE those broad sweeping generalizations. Please, enlighten us all as to the "Proof" that LHO was a CIA agent? This I really want to hear.

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Read books that are not put out by the C.I.A.(the "Poser's plagiarized, pretentious "Case Closed" available in hardback for $1 on Amazon) or the agitated prosecution brief which is the paperweight known as Bugliosi's "Reclaiming History" (Tom Hanks should be ashamed).

For a complete overview of the case read Noel Twyman's (an Englishman with no ax to grind) "Bloody Treason" and Jim Douglass' (America's leading North American Catholic theologian of peace for the past forty years) "JFK and the Unspeakable".

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Right...so, that trumps ALL the physical evidence pointing to Lee Oswald...how exactly? A guy who makes a movie 50-years-later, (a movie mind you that didn't even show the most damning parts of Oswald's guilt--like the fact he was the ONLY Book Depository worker to leave the scene or getting caught in numerous lie by investigators) and that makes the entire case fall apart? Can I have some of what you're smoking, brother? I give you that Captain Phillips has falsehoods in it. I give you that Parkland has falsehoods in it. You want to know what that means? Not diddly-s$&$.

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There is no physical evidence that would be accepted in a court of law as evidence against LHO in the JFK case. That was one of the biggest of the Warren Commission's problems, the case is entirely circumstantial. Unless you have kept track of the developments in the case over the past fifty years you are hopelessly uninformed.

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Discussing the assassination or conspiracy theories was not the focus of this film. It was to highlight the ways in which the events impacted others involved in the situation. I enjoyed it very much in that the details that we all already know that have been done ad nauseum were not repeated here. This film puts an emotional spin on things. We didn't need to see the Zapruder film or hear arguments over who was responsible. That's a fine discussion when talking about a film that focuses on those things but I like that this film gives a much broader scope to the events that day. Witnessing the emotional impact on the "minor players" of the story made it feel real. After so many documentaries and films that have focused solely on the investigative aspects, I feel like the JFK assassination has been reduced to gossipy true crime fodder.

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Your points are well taken, and of course Lee Oswald has to be included in the film since he died at Parkland also. However, there were way too many characters saying emphatically that Oswald was guilty. That was not really necessary in order to engage with the characters. Abraham Zapruder, for example, had no idea who did it and was simply traumatized by what he had seen. That's an aspect of the film that I felt was handled fairly.

The average viewer who watches this film without any additional knowledge will assume that Oswald is guilty and that it was proven beyond any doubt. This bothered me a great deal, and I wish the movie could have been tweaked a little bit concerning this angle.

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The average viewer who watches this film without any additional knowledge will assume that Oswald is guilty and that it was proven beyond any doubt. This bothered me a great deal, and I wish the movie could have been tweaked a little bit concerning this angle.

Does it similarly bother you a great deal that the "average viewer" who watches JFK "without any additional knowledge will assume that Oswald is innocent", a vast conspiracy was involved "and that it was proven beyond any doubt"?



"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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Nothing is proven either way. I personally believe that Oswald is innocent and I think that the evidence supports that, but I can't prove it. It would be nice if folks knew that Oswald's guilt was not proven, and that he was murdered to shut him up. Therefore, there must be more going on than the cut-and-dried story we were told.

I was a child when Kennedy was murdered and I believed what the news media told me. Now, I can see that story was full of holes and should not be accepted at face value.

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It would be nice if folks knew that Oswald's guilt was not proven

Not sure how to respond to that. Based on the popularity of CTs, though some of those still have Oswald as a shooter, I would think those who thought Oswald's guilt was proven were in the minority. He was never tried so proven is a bit of a nebulous term here isn't it? I think the evidence is overwhelming of Oswald's guilt.
and that he was murdered to shut him up.

That is your supposition. There is absolutely no evidence that he was murdered to shut him up.
I was a child when Kennedy was murdered and I believed what the news media told me

I was five years old in 1963. I would say that for the last fifty years I have heard mostly opinions that the WC was wrong and one CT after another with most media outlets, books, movies and documentaries supporting a CT. Most of this time I have held doubts about the WC's conclusions until approximately a year ago when I decided to do some real research about what is known. I'm firmly convinced that Oswald was a lone nut who was killed by another lone nut, Jack Ruby. It has nothing to do with being fooled by the government. The popular opinion has almost always been to believe a conspiracy. To accept that LHO was a lone gunman requires independent critical thinking, especially in the environment where most have been duped into believing otherwise.




"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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I would certainly prefer to believe you're right. I'd like to think the government is not culpable here, but I just can't. Fidel Castro made a speech the day after Kennedy's assassination, laying out his theory of what happened. I think he was pretty accurate. A Russian official (can't remember his name) put out a statement which was read on-air by Walter Cronkite, and he was spot-on as well. Both of these men believed there was no way a lone nut could pull this off.

Of course it's a possibility that Oswald is guilty, but the movie makes it sound like a done deal, case closed. If the director wanted to stay away from theories, I wish they would have toned down the emphatic statements about Oswald's guilt. I just don't see how he could have done it. Witness Victoria Adams ran down the stairs from the fourth floor of the TSBD immediately after the shots were fired, and arrived on the second floor just as officer Baker was coming in. Oswald was on the second floor and Miss Adams and her companion, Sandra Styles, saw nobody going up or down while they were on the stairs. Miss Adams' supervisor verified the time and the exact locations of the various parties.

When Oswald's rifle was tested later, it was determined that it left residue on BOTH cheeks of the person firing. But Oswald had no residue on either cheek. How could he have done this thing? His movements in the building were accounted for almost 100% of the time, and he could not have fired a rifle. I just don't see it.

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How could he have done this thing?


"A negative test for GSR is meaningless, as:
a. Tests are only positive in about half the cases when an individual is known to have fired a gun.
b. Tests are usually negative in relationship to rifles and shotguns."
(See Vincent J. M. Di Maio and Suzanna E. Dana, Handbook of Forensic Pathology, 2nd ed. (Boca Raton, FL.: CRC Press, 2007), 151.)

There is the opinion of Dr. Di Maio, the guy who literally and figuratively wrote the handbook on the subject. That is the only answer you need for that question unless you dispute Di Maio, which would be a tough sell in any courtroom in the world.

His movements in the building were accounted for almost 100% of the time, and he could not have fired a rifle.

Do I really need to point out to you that you yourself acknowledge they weren't accounted for all of the time? In reality, there was much of Oswald's time on any given day, including the day of the assassination that was not accounted for. His position had him moving about the building filling orders independently. From the testimony I recall, people only had spotty recollections of him that morning, which would not have been unusual and besides, he did not fill one order that morning. Hmm, wonder what he was up to?
he could not have fired a rifle.

Unless you have some other evidence besides the gunshot residue, which is not evidence, he certainly could have fired a rifle and almost certainly did.
I just don't see it.

As far as who didn't see him on the steps and these exact times of which you speak, recreations have been done repeatedly that show Oswald could have done this without any difficulty and avoided others until he was seen in the lunchroom by the cop. This info is available for all to see though has been so distorted by various CT authors, most assume otherwise. Your choice.


"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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Oh, there's other evidence, such as the paper bag that Oswald was supposed to have used to carry the rifle. There are problems with this item of evidence, inasmuch as Wesley Frazier seems to be the only one who allegedly saw Oswald with it that morning. Nobody who worked in the building saw such a package.

The paper and tape was supposedly made from supplies from the TSBD, but Mr. Knox, I believe his name was, was the person who dispensed these items and Oswald never asked for any. Mr. Knox also said he never left his station, even for lunch.

The bag the police found did not have grease or oil marks, which surely would have come from a disassembled rifle. The rifle cannot even be traced to Oswald, for sure, since it was ordered by mail and sent to a P.O. box and signed for by an individual who was not Oswald.

The paper bag was alleged to have been found on the sixth floor of the building, but there are no police photographs showing such. There are only photographs of the bag at the police station.

Cut to the chase--it appears that the bag was made after the fact to frame Oswald. I know you think I'm wrong, but the police department's story does not add up. If Miss Adams ran down the stairs as soon as she heard the shots, how is it possible that she did not see Oswald on the stairs, since the elevators were not in service? She ran down from the fourth floor to the second floor, and Oswald was already there drinking a Coke.

They needed a way to get that rifle into the building, and came up with the paper bag story. Wesley Frazier claimed that Oswald was holding it under his armpit with his hand cupped around the bottom. However, this would have been too short for a dis-assembled Mannlicher-Carcano. So here's another inconsistency.

There are too many problems with the rifle and the paper bag right there. The official story has too many inconsistencies to be plausible.

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DrG, go to the JFK board and read the thread "curtain rods". I address all of these issues there with several links also. There is a picture of DPD walking out of the TSBD with the bag. Again, your CT sources have misled you.

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Another interesting point is that the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was sent to the FBI in Washington on the evening of November 22. It was examined for prints by FBI specialist Sebastian Latona, and he found no fingerprints or palm prints belonging to Oswald. The rifle was then sent back to Dallas.

The palm print belonging to Oswald did not appear until the 26th, after he was dead.

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Because the print had already been lifted by DPD before the rifle was sent to DC. Amazing the lies that have persisted for fifty years. The only way around this is to implicate DPD officers and FBI agents as co-conspirators. Is it really that satisfying to just implicate another CT every time the evidence gets in the way?

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Oh, stop lying, DocCausality.

The mortician has gone on record to say that federal agents came to the funeral home post-mortem and got the palm print that way.

Now, go cash your check.

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Thank you, Prometheus. I'm getting tired of refuting nonsense. I appreciate your help.

Yes, the mortician said he had a bit of a difficult time getting the ink off of Oswald's hands. The authorities claimed that they needed additional prints, but they already took quite a few while Oswald was in custody.

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Yes, the mortician said he had a bit of a difficult time getting the ink off of Oswald's hands. The authorities claimed that they needed additional prints, but they already took quite a few while Oswald was incustody.
So they found an ink palm print on the rifle?

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All you seem to post here is lies and misrepresentations, Prot, and this one is no exception. You have to be the most pathetic poster here and I'm concluding it's just sad that you really believe the cr*p you post.

Now, send me my check.



"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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There are millions who believe as ProT does. Is it fair to call a participant pathetic when there is so much material to support his views. One can believe LHO did shoot, but that there were others involved. The police officer that gave a deathbed confession says the DPD was involved. Myself, I am not sure who or what groups were involved, but he wasn't the only one.

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There are millions who believe as ProT does. Is it fair to call a participant pathetic when there is so much material to support his views.

My comments about ProT have little to with his CT views and much to do with the fact that he is a pathetic loser. He has consistently accused me of lying when facts prove otherwise, accused me of being a sockpuppet, has told me I'm going to hell and continues to openly accuse me of being a paid shill to propagate that Oswald shot Kennedy as a lone gunman, long before I decided to respond to him the way you observed.

Kariann, you are absolutely correct though, there is a ton of information to support the multiple contradictory CTs. If you have an interest in the truth, I suggest following those leads to their logical conclusions. Feel free to believe what you will, though blindly accepting much of the innuendo, half-truths and blatant distortion of the facts in this case you read here and elsewhere will not lead you to the truth.



"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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Doc, even going back to high school when JFK was killed, I felt there were two shooters. This year, I have expanded my sources looking at various viewpoints. I have been doing this for 6-7 weeks. Without a doubt, I believe the CIA was involved. I want to know more about James Hosty. There is such a doubt on the number of shots heard, and that I believe is the key to solving this mystery.

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I'm not sure how much help James Hosty is going to be. He did write a book, I haven't read it, but you might find it interesting. I think it's called "Operation Oswald."

There had to have been at least four shots. One injured bystander James Tague. One hit Kennedy in the back. One hit Connally. One blew Kennedy's head off. There were also two bullet holes in the windshield which witnesses said looked like they came from the front. There was also another bullet found in the grass which had left a mark on the curb? Not sure about that one, but I'm thinking between 4 and 8 shots? Maybe 3 shooters?

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Thank you for the reminder about the number of bullets. I don't think I can go with three shooters, but two are a possibility!

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The reason I am going with three shooters is this: I'm assuming one person was on the grassy knoll. The bullet holes in the windshield, presumably coming from the front, were more straight-on, and not an angle. There is speculation that there was a shooter in the sewer, who would have come through a man-hole cover. I'm not really sure how I feel about this idea, but it could be possible. Another idea is that someone was on the overpass, which would account from shots coming from the front, but I think there were witnesses up there.

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DrG and Kariann, Do you believe JFK's fatal shot to the head was fired from the grassy knoll?



"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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To Doc:

I do, yes. I started watching a JFK documentary yesterday where they were talking about the bullets. They had some sort of ballistics expert saying that the shot could not have come from the front, because if it did, it would then have hit either Jackie or the car. But my understanding is that it was a frangible bullet which exploded on impact, so that didn't sound right.

Then I realized they were not going to be objective and were just going on the premise that Oswald fired three shots, and that there were no other shooters, so I turned it off.

I certainly don't have any technical training in this field, but it seems that if you start with a faulty premise, you're not going to arrive at an accurate conclusion. They're leaving out a lot of possibilities.

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I recently posted this link on another thread and you can find JFK's autopsy xrays and photos all over the net: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/apxray.jpg

This is an AP (anterior-posterior, i.e. "front to back) post-mortem skull xray of JFK, so the orientation is if you were looking at that skull in the face. Besides the obvious broken bones on the right side (the skull's right), note the multiple radio-opaque or "whitish" particles which represent bullet fragments and shards of bone, all of which are on the right side. Not one of these has crossed the midline. This is one piece of evidence and a very strong one that the bullet was not fired from the right side of JFK, especially the grassy knoll area. There is no way to explain how there would not be some evidence of either bone spicules or bullet fragments on the left side of the brain if the shot had come from the GK.

You mentioned frangible ammunition. Here's a link about it: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/frangible.htm
Even after impact smaller pieces or fragments are left, they don't disappear from the wound, just break up. Even if you invoke that these particles are radio-lucent (not seen on xray) which I don't know if that is even probable, they would still be visible on gross autopsy and it is almost inconceivable that bone spicules would not be driven across the midline and be visible there on xray.

Probably the strongest evidence against a GK shot besides the xrays are the photos and autopsy findings themselves available here: http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/autopsy_slideshow/index.html
I understand this may be very difficult for those without the background to understand but it should be rather obvious that a small hole is on the right back side of the head and a large hole is on the right side of the head, more toward the front. Many pathologists have examined this and confirmed the small hole in the back beveled into the skull, indicating this was an entrance wound. Even Cyril Wecht the one and only dissenting pathologist over the SBT on the HSCA panel agreed the head shot was from behind, not from the right. BTW, Wecht could offer no explanation to what happened to the bullet that passed through JFK's neck and he certainly agreed that was one shot fired from the back.

So, we have 1) a bullet entering JFK's upper back/base of neck and exiting his throat; 2) a bullet entering the back of JFK's skull and exiting the right side of his head; 3) a bullet entering Connally's back, exiting below his right nipple, striking his right wrist and piercing his left thigh, which of course is the same bullet that exited Kennedy's throat. Even if you don't understand or accept that Connally's wounds are from the same bullet that passed through Kennedy's neck, where on Earth would this shot from the GK have struck?

Connally's wrist and thigh were below the top of the car door and no bullet passed through the car. His armpit/chest wounds were in a back to front orientation, so that excludes a GK shot hitting him.

The only way around this is believe that JFK's body was altered or substituted for autopsy, the photos and xrays. The forensic evidence could really not be clearer. The only other thing I can think of is to postulate that there were other shooters that day that missed Kennedy, yet we have no evidence of other bullets or casings.




"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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Thanks for the response. I am not competent to discuss this with you since I don't understand it very well. I clearly remember the Parkland doctors describing a large exit wound in the back of the head, plus an entrance wound about 5 inches down from the shoulder that only went in two inches. I don't understand that, but it certainly could not be the Magic Bullet, that one did not pass all the way through Kennedy's body. Then the Parkland doctors also described an entrance wound around the Adam's apple, so we are obviously getting different information.

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so we are obviously getting different information.

The Parkland doctors were strictly involved in an attempted resuscitation effort. They did not roll him over and were completely unaware of the upper back wound. Whether pooled blood clot to the back right side of his head made them think there was a large wound there or what, the autopsy photos clearly show there wasn't.
Then the Parkland doctors also described an entrance wound around the Adam's apple

That actually was a sticking point for me for a long time until I researched this further. Being well circumscribed it was a fairly reasonable assumption on their part at that time but ultimately incorrect. They did not know of the wound on the back so assumed it was an entrance wound because as far as they were concerned there was no other wound to be considered an entrance wound. Most of the GSWs they dealt with were handgun wounds using hollow point bullets which always have a bigger more ragged exit wound. The FMJ Carcano bullet passed from back to front through soft tissue only and went through virtually unchanged from entry, so it too was a small hole. Forensic evaluation of the clothing confirmed the back wound was an entrance wound (as well as findings of the wound itself) and the anterior neck wound was an exit wound. Unfortunately since the tracheotomy obliterated that wound, further pathologic identification of the anterior neck wound was impossible and the autopsists didn't even know about that wound until they talked with the Parkland doctors the next day.



"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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More than likely since this shot came from a front angle and wasn't Oswald's shot(s).

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Yes, I do. Why would so many people run up to the fence claiming a shot(s) came from there. Plus, several witnesses said they saw a puff of smoke.

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Yes, I do. However, the shooter had a position of authority such as a police officer or Secret Service Agent. He could move away from the scene and then show up with the bystanders who heard the shot. He could flash his badge as if to show he belongs there. This isn't shown in THIS movie.

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I have answered this question three times, and it disappears. Yes, I do believe JFK's fatal shot to the head was fired from the grassy knoll. It would have to been by someone who blend in with the crowd and had an easy escape. Or did he/she really leave the area?

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If I was half as clever as you think you are - I would be a genius.

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I would say that for the last fifty years I have heard mostly opinions that the WC was wrong and one CT after another with most media outlets, books, movies and documentaries supporting a CT. Most of this time I have held doubts about the WC's conclusions until approximately a year ago when I decided to do some real research about what is known.


I have come to the opposite conclusion. I always assumed the conspiracy theorists were nuts and the WC basically got it right. After careful examination over the last few years, I have come to the conclusion the preponderance of evidence overwhelmingly points to a conspiracy. In fact, I think if one takes a step back and looks at the totality of the evidence, that's the only conclusion one can reasonably come to (even if one thinks Oswald fired the fatal shot, which is far from a sure thing).

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To all who wrote comments to DrGerbill;

I personally do not know you, but I can clearly state that I agree with you. Its not rocket science....if you look at it and examine the witness reports, the Zapruda homemade film and ALL the evidence that had been given, you can come to the conclusion yourself. Which is common sense really! The accusations against Oswald sound implausible and add up.

The reports given in by witnesses, the way the secret service handled everything, the fact that the root was changed last minute, the fact that there was no ground surveillance initiated prior to the presidents arrival, the fact that the autopsy was not even done properly, the report by the lady who worked at the Book depository who had seen Oswald calm and collected in the lunch room, OR even better.....the fact that the JKF was actually courageous enough to do what many presidents before him did not do nor, im sure...had the courage to do. He was about to undergo changes to create peace for coloured people, bring back the troops from Vietnam,...etc....etc.. The fact that he was changing the country for the better....and actually having the courage to do so.....was frowned upon by certain people within the government.

People, look at the fact for what they are....and make up your own mind. Either way, a great man was lost that day. America WOULD have been such a great nation...had he undergone all his ambitious and noble actions.

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To sjdooley:

Thank you for your comments. There are so many other things that were not mentioned, such as the secret service agents told to stand down at Love Field. Why would their boss Emory Roberts tell some of his men to stand down? I believe it was agents Henry Rybka and Don Lawton. They were supposed to ride on the running board of the limousine. With two Secret Service agents on the car, it would have been harder to kill the President. Who had the power to orchestrate that? Not Oswald.

Either Roberts was in on it, or he was getting orders from somebody who was in on it.

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Indeed, if the SS Agent was riding on the running board, he probably could have covered JFK with his body before the fatal shot.

Yes, I do believe the third shot came from the grassy knoll.

If there was bullet damage done to the front mirror prior to the visit to Dallas, it would have been recorded somewhere on an evaluation sheet. Notes to fix it would have been noted. Did those shots come from the front or from the back?

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I do believe there were a few bullet holes that came from the front. I'm too lazy to go look it up, but I remember watching an interview with a Parkland resident--she was not allowed into the operating room, but she looked at the limousine. She was a gun enthusiast and clearly stated that you could tell by the condition of the windshield that the shot or shots came from the front.

Then there's that strange situation where the limo was whisked off to Michigan within two days of the assassination, and completely cleaned up and the windshield replaced. If there was no conspiracy, why destroy evidence like that?

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why destroy evidence like that?

The windshield was not destroyed, it's at NARA. http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/faqs.html It confirms the shots came from the rear.



"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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I find it sickening that people defend Oswald, especially after he murdered Officer Tippit in cold blood, in front of at least 4 witnesses. Why would these witnesses lie? And why would Oswald murder him if he was innocent? What could the witnesses possibly gain? Or, were they too planted by the government as witnesses? Haha. Utter nonsense.

Im not saying Oswald acted alone, but he DID act! He killed Tippit knowing that he had been made. I think the ballistics prove that two very different types of bullets did the damage. The magic bullet was NOT magic, with Connelly being in a jump seat the trajectory was spot on for all the wounds (minus the head shot) on Kennedy and Connelly. Donahue's theory of the head shot coming from an accidential firing of the SS's AR-15 seems more plausible than the grassy knoll theory. Visit Dealy Plaza, and the grassy knoll theory becomes less believable to me.

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I find it sickening that people defend Oswald, especially after he murdered Officer Tippit in cold blood, in front of at least 4 witnesses. Why would these witnesses lie? And why would Oswald murder him if he was innocent? What could the witnesses possibly gain? Or, were they too planted by the government as witnesses? Haha. Utter nonsense.

Im not saying Oswald acted alone, but he DID act! He killed Tippit knowing that he had been made. I think the ballistics prove that two very different types of bullets did the damage. The magic bullet was NOT magic, with Connelly being in a jump seat the trajectory was spot on for all the wounds (minus the head shot) on Kennedy and Connelly. Donahue's theory of the head shot coming from an accidential firing of the SS's AR-15 seems more plausible than the grassy knoll theory. Visit Dealy Plaza, and the grassy knoll theory becomes less believable to me.

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I don't know where the discussion is on the NOVA (PBS) discussion, but there were a few things said and shown that I noted. I have never seen the limo AFTER JFK was taken into the hospital. They showed the back car seat and all the blood on it. That was a chilling shot - there was a lot of it.

They also said the decision was made not to use the BULLET PROOF roof because it wasn't raining as it had been earlier. At least that's what we heard.

It was emphasized that the doctors who examined the President's body at Bethesda Naval hospital were not forensic pathologists. They should have had the autopsy photos taken at Parkland Hospital sent with JFK. What happened to those photos. Did someone say one of the photos was recently recovered?

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They also said the decision was made not to use the BULLET PROOF roof because it wasn't raining as it had been earlier. At least that's what we heard.

The bubble top was not bullet proof. It was for use when there was precipitation, nothing else. Otherwise it was an open limo.
They should have had the autopsy photos taken at Parkland Hospital sent with JFK.

There was no autopsy done at Parkland and I'm unaware of any photos taken there. Perhaps if an autopsy had been done in Dallas we might not be having some of these silly conspiracy discussions. Ok, we'd probably still be having many of them just because.


"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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Also--the viewer does not get a good look at Abraham Zapruder's film. I wonder why?


I don't know why, but it's not like we haven't seen it about a billion times over the years already. Almost as many times as we've seen the planes "not" hit the WTC. By the way, Ancient Aliens did it. They keep coming back for some reason. As Egyptions, as Masons, as presidential assassins. Sneaky SOB's they are.


-----------------------------------
You're entitled to your wrong opinion.

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Not everyone who believes in the conspiracy to kill Kennedy believes in little green men.

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Ok close your eyes & imagine...

Shot # 1 LHO - hits pavement tumbling end over end hits JFK in the back causing a shollow wound with no track, also causes injury to james Tague

Shot # 2 LHO - hits JFK in neck and goes on through to Connelly

Shot # 3 (mystery?)- SS agent (no names mentioned GH) grabs the AR-15 flicks off the saftey. Follow up car hits gas causing said agent to push back firing & hitting JFK in the head

The only conpiracy is hding it...possible????

from JFK: The Smoking Gun

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I've heard that theory and I suppose it's possible, although I am inclined to disagree.

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Shot # 1 LHO - hits pavement tumbling end over end hits JFK in the back causing a shollow wound with no track,

This would then have been an even more elliptical wound than the one found. Even then that bullet should have been laying around in the limo or caught up in his clothes or somewhere, yet not found. ETA: Also the entrance wounds through the jacket and shirt mitigate against this as well.

Shot # 2 LHO - hits JFK in neck and goes on through to Connelly

You lost me there. Are you saying it entered in the front of the neck, in other words shot from the front? How did it pass through to Connally who was in front of JFK? Maybe I'm not following your line of thought.
Shot # 3 (mystery?)- SS agent (no names mentioned GH) grabs the AR-15 flicks off the saftey. Follow up car hits gas causing said agent to push back firing & hitting JFK in the head

Major findings regarding the two missile wounds:

Skull
Distributed through the right cerebral hemisphere are numerous small, irregular metallic fragments most of which are less than 1 mm. in maximum dimension.

The majority of these fragments lie anteriorly and superiorly. None can be visualized on the left side of the brain and none below a horizontal plane through the floor of the anterior fossa of the skull. On one of the lateral films of the skull (#2), a hole measuring approximately 8 mm. in diameter on the outer surface of the skull and as much as 20 mm. on the internal surface can be seen in profile approximately 100 mm. above the external occipital protuberance. The bone of the lower edge of the hole is depressed. Also there is, embedded in the outer table of the skull close to the lower edge of the hole, a large metallic fragment which on the anteroposterior film (#1) lies 25 mm. to the right of the midline. This fragment as seen in the latter film is round and measures 6.5 mm in diameter immediately adjacent to the hole on the internal surface of the skull, there is localized elevation of the soft tissues. Small fragments of bone lie within portions of these tissues and within the hole itself. These changes are consistent with an entrance wound of the skull produced by a bullet similar to that of exhibit CE 399. The metallic fragments visualized within the right cerebral hemisphere fall into two groups. One group consists of relatively large fragments, more or less randomly distributed. The second group consists of finely divided fragments, distributed in a posteroanterior direction in a region 45 mm. long and 8 mm. wide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_autopsy (Sorry for a wiki quote but it was a quick way to post and believe that part is quite accurate.)
Since the AR15 fires a 5.45mm projectile, this would be inconsistent with that round fragment seen on xray. Besides, when standard 5.45mm FMJ bullets strike a dense bone table like the skull, they really break up and you would likely see much more fragmentation.




"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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Sorry to interrupt you Doc. Just wanted to say a couple things. . .

The average viewer who watches this film without any additional knowledge will assume that Oswald is guilty and that it was proven beyond any doubt. This bothered me a great deal, and I wish the movie could have been tweaked a little bit concerning this angle


I'm 48 so I've seen plenty in the way of conspiracy theories vs. the belief that Oswald acted alone and I did not see this movie as proving that it was only Oswald. What I see is that they are playing down the whole issue and any focus on Oswald is only about what people in those first moments after the shooting were thinking which was all suspicion was on Oswald at that time. In fact, it mostly looks to me like the whole issue of who did it is played down. The movie is not about that and I'm glad. There are countless movies already that explore that issue. It's about time they made one that focuses soley on how people felt about the assassination and almost nothing else. What I came away with was watching these people trying desperately to resuscitate a man whose head was half gone. I see they were trying irrationally to bring a man back to life who couldn't be. I see the pain they were in over the loss of their beloved president. I get that no matter what kind of movie they make people will always focus on the conspiracy theory vs. Oswald alone but focusing on this with this movie is missing the point of the movie.

It would be nice if folks knew that Oswald's guilt was not proven


Of course it's a possibility that Oswald is guilty, but the movie makes it sound like a done deal, case closed.


Anybody who watches or reads the most basic information about the assassination knows this. I was first exposed to issues on the assassination like many people in high school and through various documentaries and movies that were available in the 70's when I was a kid. This isn't something that the movie needed to explore.

I was five years old in 1963. I would say that for the last fifty years I have heard mostly opinions that the WC was wrong and one CT after another with most media outlets, books, movies and documentaries supporting a CT. Most of this time I have held doubts about the WC's conclusions until approximately a year ago when I decided to do some real research about what is known. I'm firmly convinced that Oswald was a lone nut who was killed by another lone nut, Jack Ruby. It has nothing to do with being fooled by the government. The popular opinion has almost always been to believe a conspiracy. To accept that LHO was a lone gunman requires independent critical thinking, especially in the environment where most have been duped into believing otherwise.


I'm pretty much right here with it in my thinking. I was once one who believed the in the conspiracy. My brother still believes this. He's 51. I don't argue with him and he's very passionate about it. He believes it's the mob that did it. I can't say that his believing this is incorrect. They certainly had motive and the power and ability to do it as does other factions. I tried explaining to him how various conspiracy theory points have been disproven but still he goes on and on about what he believes. I just gave up and let him have at it. I stopped believing the conspiracy when I saw point by point break down but I do understand why some people believe these things. Doc, you seem to know a great deal about this but I wonder if you're just wasting your time. People who believe these things will never let it go. That being said, here I go like a big dummy:

As far as who didn't see him on the steps and these exact times of which you speak, recreations have been done repeatedly that show Oswald could have done this without any difficulty and avoided others until he was seen in the lunchroom by the cop


I've heard people who say that there is no way Oswald could have raced down the steps and not been out of breath in the lunchroom but I've seen recreations using a stand in and that man raced down in a matter of seconds and was not out of breath either. Oswald was a young man. In this recreation, I also saw his entire movements that day played out while being timed from the Book Depository, to his shooting of Tippit and back home. It fit.

There is speculation that there was a shooter in the sewer, who would have come through a man-hole cover.


Saw this tested as well. They actually went to Dealey Plaza and put a man in what would have been the sewer at the front of the approaching car. While they were able to put him in there, standing up, it was impossible to position the gun to line up with the trajectory of the bullet that killed Kennedy. They also attempted other places like up on the Grassy Knoll, behind the fence like so many say and again, trajectory wrong. They positioned someone off to the left of the approaching vehicle, trajectory wrong and it would have gone through the windshield. They suggested someone up on the overpass. Impossible as if anyone were up there with a gun, they would have been seen by many people who were on the overpass.

I've also seen the testing of the fatal shot done using crash test dummies made by a company that creates these dummies from the inside out, simulating the bone, muscle and tissue of a human body. They tested the shot with the correct positioning of the car and equivalent to positioning up in the Book Depository Building. Not only was it possible, they were able to simulate the fatal shot down to the last detail including the blood and tissue spatter it created and including that small piece that flew onto the back of the vehicle that Jackie went to retrieve. The wounds Kennedy suffered were exact shooting from behind with the gun Oswald used. I can't argue with that.



"The ice is gonna break!" (Johnny--The Dead Zone)

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Doc, you seem to know a great deal about this but I wonder if you're just wasting your time. People who believe these things will never let it go.

I know some things and decided to try and learn more at my own pace. As far as getting somebody who's set on a CT to change their beliefs I'm sure you're correct and need to remind myself that has never been my goal. Rather, I just can't believe the number of falsehoods that are easily proven incorrect that continue to be repeated over and over again. Many of these are the kinds of things I've found amongst people I know upon which they base their conspiracy beliefs, because if they're repeated often enough "they must be true". I think that's probably true of a large percentage of people everywhere who have limited interest in the case but not necessarily the conspiracy buffs. Unfortunately, things like forensic evidence and ballistics are too off the radar for most people and I'm pretty sure I wasted my time with an earlier post for the purposes of this thread, but who knows? I'd like to think that just every once in awhile there's somebody who's riding the fence while reading a thread here who might fact check something that's been a sticking point for them. Probably ain't gonna happen but if nobody provides the counterpoint, what then?


"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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For me, there's no one single fact or piece of evidence that makes me lean towards conspiracy. Rather, I weigh all different issues like the implausibility of the Single-Bullet Theory(in my own opinion), the problems with the evidence chains, the inconclusiveness of the ballistics evidence(all bullets and fragments can, inconsistent witness accounts, suspicious activity around the Grassy Knoll, conflicts over the medical evidence, lack of motive for Oswald, evidence that suggests he was framed, Jack Ruby's ties to the Mob, Oswald's "possible" ties to the FBI and/or CIA, the unwillingness of government agencies to come clean about what they knew 50 years later, etc...

I realize that there's conflicting evidence in every criminal case and there's no irrefutable evidence pointing to conspiracy. The arguments in favor of conspiracy are mostly based on circumstantial evidence and speculation. I just don't find many of the theories that Oswald acted alone convincing. I find the possibility that there were at least two gunmen involved in the Kennedy assassination entirely plausible and I'm not the type of person who believes many conspiracy theories...

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I liked the way you stated your opinion. Specific details but unspecific conclusion. That's the way a truly logical person should think. You do however paint yourself into a corner. If you do not believe that Oswald was the lone gunman then by definition you are a conspiracy theorist. Sorry, that's how the math works. if you believe more than one person was involved then you believe in a conspiracy. Don't let the label of conspiracy theorist or nut bother you.

I don't want to talk about the details of the Assassination. I'm interested in how people feel about this movie based on what they already believe rather than what the movie shows.

For instance "lone gunmen" believers saw this movie and say "this is why Oswald is guilty" while "conspiracy theorists" see this and say "this is why Oswald didn't do it." One of the best scenes showing this is the scene where Robert Oswald meets his brother Lee. Lee sits down and tells his brother Robert "Don't believe all this so-called evidence." The LG people say he's guilty because he doesn't deny it and is so calm about it. Is that what this scene is really about? Is not saying you are innocent the same as an admission of guilt? Don't forget that this is why the 5th amendment is such an important point. What we say can easily be misinterpreted and used against us.

Let's run two scenarios with this scene in mind. (1)Lee just shot the president and(2)Lee just got framed for shooting the president. How does the scene play out? Before we do this lets examine what his real life brother said about this specific event, which is accurately portrayed. Robert and Lee were never close. Robert says he believed that his brother was the lone gunman but Lee never admitted to having pulled the trigger. Now Lee has just been arrested and charged with the murder of Tippit and Kennedy.

Let us assume that Lee has been framed. If he truly is a government agent, he knows that he is a dead man and whatever he says or whoever he snitches on will only hurt his family. Here is his big brother chewing him out saying "they have your pistol, they have your rifle. What did you do?" Anyone who's ever had a parent or older sibling look down on them and accuse them of something they haven't done knows well enough that the less you say the better. Any loud denial will only get you in more trouble. I see Lee as a man who's been beaten the the cops, threatened by the FBI, and ridiculed by reporters. Now he has his big brother staring at him, who apparently has already made up his mind that his brother is guilty. What would I do in a situation like that? I would do what Oswald did in this scene. Make one statement about my innocence and let the chips fall where they will.

Now if we assume he is guilty and a radical communist, then this scene makes absolutely no sense, nor does his public cries that he is innocent. If I hated someone so much enough to shoot him in public I would stand tall and say "I did it. Let him die!" Once again our own life experiences and research will shape our opinion not only of Lee but the entire Kennedy Assassination. I like that this movie doesn't show you all the "evidence" proving or disproving Lee's guilt. It's a movie about the IMMEDIATE impact it had on some of the people involved. Every other movie or documentary is a retrospective analysis of what might have happened. This is why this movie is different and why it is special.

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The biggest issue I have (and I am neither a CT or a LN believer 100%) is that if LHO did it, then why?
• He wanted to be a someone (then why deny it so adamantly)
• He was hoping for acceptance in Cuba/Russia and thought he would get away with it (Why give most of his money to his wife)
• Why shoot a policeman in broad daylight, then jog (?) to downtown Dallas and start tpo causally stroll down a main street
• Conversely, if he was part of a larger conspiracy and being held in custody, why didn’t he umm freak a bit?
• Was it simply ego…him against the judicial machine & try and prove it…bam Ruby…no proof needed now
Only LHO could answer these. No CT’er or LN’er can. I look at “evidence” and a lot can be said for either side.

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I can take a stab at answering part of your question. I am not claiming to know what Oswald was thinking, since another poster chewed me out on another thread because he thought I was saying I could read Rob Lowe's mind.

I believe that Oswald was trained to be a double agent. He had been trained to handle interrogation. He didn't want to be a "someone," he wanted to remain relatively anonymous. He made a statement, "now everyone will know who I am." This is not bragging about how he would be famous, this was him lamenting that his career as a clandestine operative was over due to all the publicity.

He had no motive to kill Kennedy and kept quiet to try to protect his family.

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No bashing Gerbil...well thought out and well said...a theory, but no ranting...I give it a 8.5

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DrGerbil, I gain go back to what was in Oswald's CIA file? I am trying to recall if anyone said he was an agent, although we do hear about the $200 a month payment. I would assume it was cash.

Is the support of FOUR or more bullets found in government analysis AFTER the Warren Commission? I had hoped new evidence or someone with a guilty conscious would reveal NEW facts. It doesn't look like they did.

Both CNN and MSNBC are having specials tomorrow night. I hope something new is found!

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To Kariann:

Right off the top of my head, the HSCA concluded that there was "probably" a conspiracy, with one shot coming from the front, but I don't know if that means they're conceding four shots.

I'd have to go look it up, and I am hoping that somebody else will know.

I would not put any money on CNN, MSNBC or any other TV program showing anything honest. A friend of mine suggested a Nova special on PBS, thinking it would be unbiased, but it was awful. "Proving" the Magic Bullet Theory by leaving out important facts and reaching faulty conclusions.

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Good points. I'll reserve my judgement of the film 'Parkland' until I see it. I do like the fact that the film doesn't focus on Oswald or present a one-sided view of his guilt/innocence.

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I think that "Parkland" DOES present a one-sided view of Oswald's guilt or innocence.

If I understand the film correctly, here are your choices: (1) Oswald acted alone; (2) Oswald acted with another person or persons unknown.

Another possibility, (3) Oswald shot NOBODY, is not an option.

To me, that makes the film one-sided. I would have liked it if they had shown a conversation between two characters where one or the other of them speculated that Oswald might be innocent, and that there was something more sinister at work.

The filmmakers could have dropped it right there, but just left the door open to the idea that this was not a slam-dunk. The director stated in an interview that he wanted to stay away from conspiracy theories, which makes it sound like he's impartial, but the film seemed very clear that Oswald was the shooter, and the only question is that he may have had an accomplice.

So I see this as very one-sided, even though the director coyly tried to suggest otherwise.

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Why do you think the movie presents Oswald as the shooter? Did the show him carry in the rifle in the paper bag? Did they show him in the shooter's nest? Did they show him run down the stairs afterwards? Did they show him go home to get his pistol? Did they show him shoot Tippit? All you heard was people talking about the events and you were never shown any of it. You are doing what many did which is just perpetuate a rumor without facts.

This is part of the big problem with the LG folks. They want to believe that Oswald is the shooter and therefore only accept the "evidence" that supports that theory. You filled in the blanks of the movie with your own knowledge and bias. Remember Oswald told his brother "Don't believe this so-called evidence." This is why I think the movie has him as not the shooter but he knows what went down.

I liked that a lot of the focus of the Secret Service and the FBI was how much they screwed up, not who shot Kennedy. It was the Dallas PD hunting for Oswald. That was a great storytelling shift.

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Your points are well taken, but there are so many authority figures stating that Oswald is guilty as if it's a fact. Not everyone is going to stop and question whether they're right or not. If the Police Department and the FBI say that someone committed a crime with such certainty, I would tend to believe them.

And yes, I know that Oswald said, "Don't believe this so-called evidence." However, my impression of the actor's performance is that he was instructed to act sullen and he sort of looked guilty to me, even though I fervently believe that the real Lee Oswald shot no one. His sullen demeanor in that scene is not the same as what we have seen of him while he was in custody; he was more animated and emphatic about his innocence.

When I watch the news footage of the real Oswald during his brief press appearances, he appears to be an innocent person being framed. In the movie, the actor portraying him is very downbeat and almost creepy in the scene with his brother. If I knew nothing about the Kennedy assassination, I would assume that Oswald was guilty just from watching that one scene. So then I wonder if he really acted that way, or if the director wants to convey to us that Oswald is guilty. Or maybe I'm imagining all of that.

You brought up the point that nobody saw Oswald with a rifle, nobody saw him shoot anybody. That's true. But everyone assumes he's guilty after just a few hours. Why?

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As I said before I don't want to talk about anything other than what is shown in the movie. I've done extensive research into the Kennedy Assassination as well, looking at both the evidence for and against Oswald as a shooter. Since you do make good points and obviously saw the movie I'll indulge you a bit.

I can't comment how you percieve an actor's performance. I just wanted you to acknowledge what he said. If the writer/director thought he was guilty, he wouldn't make the actor say that. You mentioned that his sullen performance in the scene is inconsistant with actual footage. I would disagree. If you re-watch the real footage of him I think he rarely got loud in front of the cameras and was usually calm. I agree having the actor be a little too distant and talking about his family instead of the arrest did seem awkward but once again awkwardness doesn't imply guilt. The real Oswald would have been tired, sullen, and with his big brother not believing in him, heartbroken as well.

Once again we talk about how a viewer percieves a scene. Do you remember the scene where the FBI director tells Agent James Hosty to destroy his files on Oswald? Why do you think they included this scene? If Hosty has info supporting Oswald as the shooter, they would have made that info public to support Oswald's arrest. If they had info on Oswald supporting his innocence and employment as a secret government agent working to support the assassination, then it must be destroyed. In the movie they burn the files? What do you think the director is saying now?

I can tell you I have very little faith in the general public to accurately judge an incident before they know all the facts. Do you remember the Susan Smith case in 1994? A white woman murdered her two sons and told everyone that a black man had stolen her car with her two boys inside. Everyone believed her and there was an intense man hunt until she eventually confessed nine days later. The fear and compassion of people makes them do very illogical and unlawful things.

Kennedy is killed. Everyone wants justice. Let's give them Oswald to blame. Let's give the people, cops, and other government officials just enough information to make Oswald a credible shooter. Mob justice will take it's course. What do you think would happen to a governemnt official who stood up and told everyone during those three days "I don't think Oswald is the shooter. We should be looking elsewhere." What do you think would have happened to that agent? He would have surely been suspended.

What about Dallas Officer Roger Craig? He was one of the people who found the rifle in the book depository. He would later tell the press that the rifle he saw was not the one which would eventually be shown to the FBI and the press. Roger Craig was a highly decorrated officer up to that point. After he made the statements about discrepency in the rifle discovery he started being discredited. In 1967 he was fired. In May 1975 he committed suicide.

It's a 21st century witch hunt and many people fell for it, even to this day. Even if we have several people come forward and confess to the crime (which some questionalbly sincere people have done) people still will not believe that there was a conspiracy. What does this say about the general public?

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Thank you for your excellent post. You are obviously a well informed and thoughtful person.

Regarding James Hosty--my impression from the movie is that the director is telling us that Oswald is guilty, but that the FBI failed to monitor him closely. The FBI is afraid of being blamed for not stopping Oswald. Therefore, the papers are burned. It's not so much whether there was exculpatory material in the file, it was more the CYA factor so they could claim they didn't know him.

Roger Craig is a tragic figure. If I remember correctly, he and Constable Weitzman both identified the rifle as a Mauser, and were later told it was a Mannlicher-Carcano. Constable Weitzman apparently saw the writing on the wall and agreed that he had been "mistaken," although he knew guns very well. Roger Craig insisted that the rifle was a Mauser and it destroyed his life.

I don't blame anyone for being afraid and keeping quiet. If Oswald was a lone nut out of left field, why are so many people afraid to talk, and why is there so much secrecy with the government documents? That right there should tell us that something is seriously wrong with this picture.

I do wish that one character had expressed to another character in the movie some type of doubt as to whether they caught the right guy, just to convey the message that there was no way to solve this case in five minutes.

Everyone I talk to thinks Oswald is guilty. And it's because they have very little information and have not really looked into it. They're just taking the government's word for it.

I'm no better a judge than anyone else. I believed Susan Smith and was shocked to learn the truth. I also had small children at that time and could not comprehend a mother doing that to her own kids.

Thank you for indulging me a little. I don't have any idea if I am interpreting the scene between Robert and Lee correctly. I even wondered if Robert supported the idea of Lee's guilt because he had been threatened, and wanted to protect his family. He could think, Lee's dead, and my wife and children could be at risk. It might not be a bad move to publicly declare his brother's guilt.

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You are right that people in general are afraid to speak up, mainly to protect themselves and their families. What we should do is applaud people who put themselves on the line to protect others, especially from governments and corporations. Like you said people want to believe Oswald is guilty to make it easier on themselves. We wanted to believe Susan Smith and in doing that dozens of black men were wrongfully detained. You choose one person or type of people to throw all your hate and rage onto and then kill them. Like I said before its a modern day witch-hunt.

Remember there is no right or wrong way to interpret a scene, just like the interpretation of a piece of art. You see it the way you are conditioned to see it. If the filmmakers wanted to tell us something rather than showing us something to ponder, movies would be very dull. I agree with you on Robert Oswald's choice of publicly announcing Lee's guilt. He can not in anyway support the actions of his brother, whether or not he truly believes the crime. Doing so would only bring pain to his life, just like Roger Craig. No one is going to attack you if you believe Oswald is guilty, but as you and I are discovering people sure do hate us for questioning Oswald's innocence.

I do agree that there should be a scene where someone needs to say that they do not agree with what is going on in the investigation, especially chasing after Oswald. I told one of your commenters that Dallas PD Chief Jesse Curry always believed that there was a second shooter from the front, therefore making him believe in a conspiracy. They should have had at least one cop saying "You know what, I think we're chasing after the wrong guy."

There are two major elements to the conspiracy. (1) Who planned and shot Kennedy and (2)How do you manipulate the media to keep the people from panic? Panic occurs when people encounter a problem and do not know how to solve it. The Hosty, Sorrels, and Dallas PD problems are now they have to find a way to defend themselves against the people who criticized their failures.

Don't waste your time with Lone Gunmen/Single Bullet/Warren Commission devotees. They will most likely never understand or accept anything outside of the WC reports, which is full of errors anyway but somehow people accept it. I admit when I was younger I believed Oswald was guilty also. I also firmly believed that dolphins were fish. Thanks to proper research and an open mind I discovered the truth. What we need to do is direct people who are interested in learning more about the possibilities of a conspiracy to the appropriate sources and let them make up their own minds.

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I like your comments very much and I agree. I would like to add that there is another element to your point number (2), which is, not only manipulating the media, but continuing a cover-up that lasts for years.

There is no way that a single individual could have done what Oswald is claimed to have done. Just that much alone should be obvious to anyone.

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Once again we talk about how a viewer percieves a scene. Do you remember the scene where the FBI director tells Agent James Hosty to destroy his files on Oswald? Why do you think they included this scene? If Hosty has info supporting Oswald as the shooter, they would have made that info public to support Oswald's arrest. If they had info on Oswald supporting his innocence and employment as a secret government agent working to support the assassination, then it must be destroyed. In the movie they burn the files? What do you think the director is saying now?


I have mentioned this 6-7 weeks ago. Some feel what Agent Hosty did with Oswald's file isn't important, but I think most would have liked to see this evidence. In Killing Kennedy, Hosty is seen marking LHO's file as "Case Closed". In Parkland the files are burned.

The director wants the audience to be open to the fact that Oswald may have been interviewed for more reasons than the Russian/Cuban connections. I know Hosty wrote a book which I haven't read. Maybe someone has more info on this?

Great post, DrGerbil. Much to think about.

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To Kariann:

Thank you so much. It helps a lot to offset the bashing posts I get.

I have not read Hosty's book, and it's not at the top of my list. I don't think Hosty knows what we think/wish he knows.

Although I would love to see another poster who HAS read the book make some comments about it.

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As usual we really do not know all the facts about what happened with Hosty and Oswald. Even if we believe what Hosty tells us, we don't know if it is the entire truth. In "ABC The Kennedy Assassination Beyond Conspiracy" Hosty says in an interview that he knew Oswald was there in Dallas and simply "lost track of him." So we are meant to believe that an FBI agent lost track of a ex-marine with special intelligence training who defected to Russia and is now working at a building which just so happens to be on the Presidential motorcade route. That's convenient.

I think that is a good read on the Hosty scenes. We don't know what really happened to all the Oswald files. What we do know is that they knew who he was and where he was. They should have kept a closer eye on him, especially that day. This is similar to the scenes with the Secret Service chief Forrest Sorrels and Agent Roy Kellerman (whoop whoop Tom Welling). They all know that they screwed up. Had they done there jobs properly none of this should have happened. I would have liked to see a scene with the Dallas PD. Just looking at their faulty evidence gathering and recording should be a signal to all that something was definitely wrong. Even Dallas PD Chief Jesse Curry says he believes someone fired from in front of the car and there as a second shooter. Second shooter means conspiracy.

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I believe that Hosty, or at least his boss, knew damn well that Oswald was one of theirs. I also believe that this sequence in the movie is the film equivalent of what the CIA calls "a limited hangout."

In other words, confessing to an embarrassing truth, which works as a smokescreen to hide a much larger truth. The casual observer of this movie might conclude that burning a file contributed to all the speculation about a conspiracy. And that, in fact, there's no real conspiracy--you can see that the FBI was simply embarrassed and wanted to pretend they didn't know who Oswald was.

So, if you're a Lone Nut apologist, there is an explanation for how the rumors got started.

So, if my reasoning is correct, the movie is actually a limited hangout which points to Oswald as the shooter.

If the director truly wished to be impartial, he should have included a few lines of dialogue which indicated that some folks were doubtful about what they were being told.

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So we are meant to believe that an FBI agent lost track of a ex-marine with special intelligence training who defected to Russia and is now working at a building which just so happens to be on the Presidential motorcade route. That's convenient.

You were okay up to the "bold" statement. Where is there evidence of "special intelligence training"?
and where he was.

You obviously have more confidence in these guys than I do. I believe you've probably watched to many James Bond films. Most of FBI type work is grunt work and Oswald was relatively unimportant and slipped under their radar. Subsequently in the ABC special you mentioned even Hosty jokingly said "now, I should have known".
Even Dallas PD Chief Jesse Curry says he believes someone fired from in front of the car and there as a second shooter.

Save me some time and find that quote for me, please. Anyway, many have been mistaken in that premise for fifty years now.



"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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DocCasualty. Congrats on trying to inject logic.
CT's are like religion. They have faith, no real evidence. That really goes for all Ct's. Yes, most Americans may believe in a conspiracy. Most have not the slightest knowledge of the actual facts and the evidence. Now, in the 21st century, we have proof beyond any reasonable doubt that all 3, and only 3, shots came from the 6th floor of the depository bldg. It has been shown through computer analysis that no other origination point was physically possible. All credible evidence shows it was LHO, and LHO alone. All other possibilities have been proven wildly implausible. The list goes on and on. But all need be said is that none of that matters to people who believe in conspiracy, as you can understand by reading this:

A Guide for Conspiracy Theorists:

1. Heads-I-Win-Tails-You-Lose -- Demand that all evidence for the official version of events be proved genuine (dodging any discussion of what that proof would consist of), and also demand that all your unsubstantiated assertions be proved false. That way, you never bear any burden of proof.

2. Sticks and Stones -- If you're being wiped out with evidence and reasoning you cannot refute, you can always take refuge in complaining about the language being used by your adversaries.
You can actually evade quite a bit of serious discussion by spending a lot of time condescendingly lecturing the newsgroup about their use of trashy language.

3. The "What's It Mean?" Spiral of Infinity -- Try to keep your opponents off balance by constantly shifting or questioning the definitions of words. For example, if your opponent states that historians generally agree that 1 million Jews were killed in gas chambers at Auschwitz during the Holocaust, you can ask, what do you mean by "historian" or what do you mean by "Jew" or what do you mean by "agree?"

4. Now You See It, Now You Don't -- Argue that the some bit of evidence never existed because it is not now available. Of course, by this logic, the Mayflower, Carthage, Jimmy Hoffa, and large portions of the Great Wall never existed. When this is pointed out to you, ignore it.

5. Kafka Was Here -- Argue that some item of evidence never existed because there are no photos or drawings of it/them. When you are presented with photos and drawings, state that they could not possibly be actual photos/drawings of the item in question because the item in question never existed because there are no photos/drawings of them because they never existed because . . .

6. The Great Leap -- This tactic goes like this: If one piece of testimony about the official version of the event in question seems unreliable, then ALL testimony about the event in question is unreliable. If one witness may have recanted something on the stand, then all other witnesses are liars.
This, however, does not apply to the conspiracy theory.

7. If you don't want to look like a total buffoon, there's always the pseudo-academic, above-the-fray approach. With a huge dose of arrogance and superiority, explain that you are not a conspiracy nut, but someone with a healthy skepticism about everything, and that you are conducting your own research to determine for yourself whether certain incidents actually took place. Pretend to be totally impartial (despite the avalanche of evidence you would encounter the minute you actually began any legitimate research), but in your posts only question the official accounts of the events, not conspiracy theorist’s statements.

8. Although all of your arguments will be consistently blown to smithereens, just wait a few days or weeks and then re-post them.

9. Ignore the fact that, for all practical purposes, it is impossible for ALL the people who must be in on a conspiracy to keep it secret.

10. For all facts that do not fit your theory, deride them as manufactured as part of the conspiracy.

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A Guide for Lone-Nut Theorists:

- Rely only on eye witnesses testimony when it supports the Lone-nut theory

- Downplay the importance of eye witness testimony when it doesn't support the Lone-Nut theory

- Ignore inconvenient truths about the problems with the Forensics, Ballistics, and Medical Evidence

- Don't try to explain Oswald and Ruby's seeming lack of motives. The excuse that they were both crazy, loners, and seeking attention can be applied to anybody suspect of a crime

- Cite the William Manchester quote as often as possible

- Cite Gerald Posner's 'Case Closed' to make yourself sound semi-educated about the case

- Cite TV shows that "prove" the Single-Bullet theory by using fancy special effects, lasers, and omitting key facts

- Ignore the failure of the Warren Commission's own ballistics experts to prove the SBT

- Ignore the failure to link all bullets and fragments to Oswald's rifle

- When all else fails, resort to calling legit assassination researchers and historians "buffs" or "conspiracy theorists"

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You have more patience than I do in responding to these Lone-Nut believers. It's a sad thing that he doesn't even see the hyprocrisy in what he says. Almost every claim he makes can easily be said about his own beliefs. I'm sure you know all this following info. I just wanted to present it to anyone interested in doing their own research into this Lone Gunman fiasco.

I don't really care about the conspiracies. Lets put all these theories aside and simply look at the findings of the Warren Commission. As long as the WC is wrong, the entire Lone Gunman theory falls apart.

1. Single Bullet Theory? - It's shocking that anyone can believe that one bullet can go through two grown men, break a rib and wrist bones and still be intact with only minor damage to the bullet. Is this bullet made out of adamantium? It must have been Wolverine.

2. Only three shots came from the Book Depository? - More than 50 people heard a shot from the grassy knoll and many of them said they heard more than 3 shots. None of these witnesses were brought before the WC. A cop and crowd of people ran towards the grassy knoll after the shots. No one ran to the book depository. Can all these people be idiots who chased after echoes?

3. The Mannlicher Carcano rifle? - FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier testified to the WC that he examined the weapon within 24 hours after the shooting. The rifle had rust in its chamber or gun barrel which means that the rifle hadn't been fired recently. Frazier and the whole FBI firearms team continued to say the scope was defective and there was rust and corrosion on the firing pins and springs. Forget about Oswald. Who is the idiot who chose this stupid weapon as the plant? I bet he got fired.

As usual we can go on and on. You keep looking at the WC and you find more errors and more evidence going against their own theories. Start with an examination of the WC itself before you do any other research. Here is a great site which looks at the WC. I would be surprised if people looked through this WC analysis and still believe it.

http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/jfk.htm

I will say that at least in this instance I agree with the majority public opinion that there was a conspiracy. It's also a good sign that with more education and public research the number of Lone Gunmen believers is slowly diminishing. Soon they will be no more and the truth will be revealed. We don't need to prove or show evidence of anything. We just don't believe the WC bs.


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I don't really care about the conspiracies.

I agree with the majority public opinion that there was a conspiracy

Gee, all in one post. Epic fail for movieguy.

1. Single Bullet Theory? - It's shocking that anyone can believe that one bullet can go through two grown men, break a rib and wrist bones and still be intact with only minor damage to the bullet

Look at the side view of CE399 and you'll see the damage isn't minor. Fail #2
2. Only three shots came from the Book Depository? - More than 50 people heard a shot from the grassy knoll and many of them said they heard more than 3 shots. None of these witnesses were brought before the WC. A cop and crowd of people ran towards the grassy knoll after the shots. No one ran to the book depository. Can all these people be idiots who chased after echoes?

But the majority heard three shots and consensus was from the TSBD. Why would somebody run toward the shooter; that makes no sense. Ever been to Dealey Plaza? Sound echoes like you're in a fish bowl. Fail#3
3. The Mannlicher Carcano rifle? - FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier testified to the WC that he examined the weapon within 24 hours after the shooting. The rifle had rust in its chamber or gun barrel which means that the rifle hadn't been fired recently. Frazier and the whole FBI firearms team continued to say the scope was defective and there was rust and corrosion on the firing pins and springs. Forget about Oswald. Who is the idiot who chose this stupid weapon as the plant? I bet he got fired.

False. He reported there was corrosion present which is very common in surplus military firearms due to their use of corrosive ammunition and says nothing about it not having been fired recently. Scope has been addressed in another post today and the weapon was fully functional. Fail #4
It's also a good sign that with more education and public research the number of Lone Gunmen believers is slowly diminishing.

A recent poll showed the number of LN believers is increasing. Fail #5

But hey, feel free to believe what you wish.






"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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DocCasualty. Congrats on trying to inject logic.
CT's are like religion. They have faith, no real evidence. That really goes for all Ct's. Yes, most Americans may believe in a conspiracy. Most have not the slightest knowledge of the actual facts and the evidence. Now, in the 21st century, we have proof beyond any reasonable doubt that all 3, and only 3, shots came from the 6th floor of the depository bldg. It has been shown through computer analysis that no other origination point was physically possible. All credible evidence shows it was LHO, and LHO alone. All other possibilities have been proven wildly implausible. The list goes on and on. But all need be said is that none of that matters to people who believe in conspiracy, as you can understand by reading this:

A Guide for Conspiracy Theorists:

1. Heads-I-Win-Tails-You-Lose -- Demand that all evidence for the official version of events be proved genuine (dodging any discussion of what that proof would consist of), and also demand that all your unsubstantiated assertions be proved false. That way, you never bear any burden of proof.

2. Sticks and Stones -- If you're being wiped out with evidence and reasoning you cannot refute, you can always take refuge in complaining about the language being used by your adversaries.
You can actually evade quite a bit of serious discussion by spending a lot of time condescendingly lecturing the newsgroup about their use of trashy language.

3. The "What's It Mean?" Spiral of Infinity -- Try to keep your opponents off balance by constantly shifting or questioning the definitions of words. For example, if your opponent states that historians generally agree that 1 million Jews were killed in gas chambers at Auschwitz during the Holocaust, you can ask, what do you mean by "historian" or what do you mean by "Jew" or what do you mean by "agree?"

4. Now You See It, Now You Don't -- Argue that the some bit of evidence never existed because it is not now available. Of course, by this logic, the Mayflower, Carthage, Jimmy Hoffa, and large portions of the Great Wall never existed. When this is pointed out to you, ignore it.

5. Kafka Was Here -- Argue that some item of evidence never existed because there are no photos or drawings of it/them. When you are presented with photos and drawings, state that they could not possibly be actual photos/drawings of the item in question because the item in question never existed because there are no photos/drawings of them because they never existed because . . .

6. The Great Leap -- This tactic goes like this: If one piece of testimony about the official version of the event in question seems unreliable, then ALL testimony about the event in question is unreliable. If one witness may have recanted something on the stand, then all other witnesses are liars.
This, however, does not apply to the conspiracy theory.

7. If you don't want to look like a total buffoon, there's always the pseudo-academic, above-the-fray approach. With a huge dose of arrogance and superiority, explain that you are not a conspiracy nut, but someone with a healthy skepticism about everything, and that you are conducting your own research to determine for yourself whether certain incidents actually took place. Pretend to be totally impartial (despite the avalanche of evidence you would encounter the minute you actually began any legitimate research), but in your posts only question the official accounts of the events, not conspiracy theorist’s statements.

8. Although all of your arguments will be consistently blown to smithereens, just wait a few days or weeks and then re-post them.

9. Ignore the fact that, for all practical purposes, it is impossible for ALL the people who must be in on a conspiracy to keep it secret.

10. For all facts that do not fit your theory, deride them as manufactured as part of the conspiracy.

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A Guide for Conspiracy Theorists:


Yep, ripped right out the play book.


"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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I don’t mean to insult anyone who believes in conspiracies. Some very bright people feel that it is important to get to the truth. And who can argue with that? Still, it is very frustrating to argue with CT's on the facts. This is because their facts are selective and out of context. Great weight is given to inconsistencies in the official story. They do not understand how fallible human memory and perception are. And that goes for arguments on both sides of the debate.
Given that all stories will have unknowns and problems, one then must go with the theory that is more persuasive, based on the totality of evidence and circumstances.
For Ct's, anecdotes and stories are taken either as gospel truth, or given far more credence than they deserve. "How could this trained police officer be wrong?!" "So and so said this, or that." "It is FACT that such and such."
When checked out, all of these turn out to be flat out wrong, innocent mistakes or not consequential. The other thing we hear over and over: "It doesn't add up!" It doesn’t make sense!" "I have never heard of or seen (fill in the blank)"

The one thing I have found to be true is that the overwhelming majority of people who study the assassination (or any other CT generating event) do not understand the weight to be given various bits of evidence. So, we could argue all day long that the magic bullet could do what it did, that there is no other location from where the shots could have come, until we are blue in the face. And I do sometimes get into that.
But I think the key is to really understand why people believe in conspiracy and how they develop.

Another interesting list of attributes of CT's someone compiled:
(long read...sorry! All are good points, 5 & 10 in particular, IMHO)
------------

Allegations exhibiting several of the following features are candidates for classification as conspiracy theories. Confidence in such classification improves the more such features are exhibited:

1. Initiated on the basis of limited, partial or circumstantial evidence;
Conceived in reaction to media reports and images, as opposed to, for example, thorough knowledge of the relevant forensic evidence.

2. Addresses an event or process that has broad historical or emotional impact;
Seeks to interpret a phenomenon which has near-universal interest and emotional significance, a story that may thus be of some compelling interest to a wide audience.

3. Reduces morally complex social phenomena to simple, immoral actions;
Impersonal, institutional processes, especially errors and oversights, interpreted as malign, consciously intended and designed by immoral individuals.

4. Personifies complex social phenomena as powerful individual conspirators;
Related to (3) but distinct from it, deduces the existence of powerful individual conspirators from the 'impossibility' that a chain of events lacked direction by a person.

5. Allots superhuman talents or resources to conspirators;
May require conspirators to possess unique discipline, unrepentant resolve, advanced or unknown technology, uncommon psychological insight, historical foresight, unlimited resources, etc.

6. Key steps in argument rely on inductive, not deductive reasoning*;
Inductive steps are mistaken to bear as much confidence as deductive ones.

7. Appeals to 'common sense';
Common sense steps substitute for the more robust, academically respectable methodologies available for investigating sociological and scientific phenomena.

8. Exhibits well-established logical and methodological fallacies;
Formal and informal logical fallacies are readily identifiable among the key steps of the argument.

9. Is produced and circulated by 'outsiders', often anonymous, and generally lacking peer review;
Story originates with a person who lacks any insider contact or knowledge, and enjoys popularity among persons who lack critical (especially technical) knowledge.

10. Is upheld by persons with demonstrably false conceptions of relevant science;
At least some of the story's believers believe it on the basis of a mistaken grasp of elementary scientific facts.

11. Enjoys zero credibility in expert commun
ities;
Academics and professionals tend to ignore the story, treating it as too frivolous to invest their time and risk their personal authority in disproving.

12. Rebuttals provided by experts are ignored or accommodated through elaborate new twists in the narrative;
When experts do respond to the story with critical new evidence, the conspiracy is elaborated (sometimes to a spectacular degree) to discount the new evidence, often incorporating the rebuttal as a part of the conspiracy.'

*Deductive and Inductive Reasoning
For deductive reasoning to be sound, the original hypothesis or generalization also must be correct. A “logical” deduction can be made from any generalization, even if it is not true. If the generalization is wrong, though, the specific conclusion can be logical and valid but still can be incorrect. One can better understand deductive reasoning by looking at examples. A generalization might be something such as, "All wasps have stingers." The logical conclusion of a specific instance would then be, "That is a wasp, so it has a stinger." This is a valid

Inductive reasoning would work in the opposite order. The specific observation would be that a particular wasp has a stinger. One could then induce that all wasps have stingers. Many scientific tests involve proving whether a deduction or induction is, in fact, true. Inducing that all cats have orange fur because one cat has orange fur, for example, could be easily disproved by observing cats that do not have orange fur.

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The real Oswald would have been tired, sullen, and with his big brother not believing in him, heartbroken as well.

You lost any credibility you might have had right there. How do you know this? The fact is you don't.
I've done extensive research into the Kennedy Assassination as well

And you still don't understand but hey, you're not alone.
people still will not believe that there was a conspiracy.

But two out of three people do believe it was a conspiracy. Believing LHO was the lone gunman, indeed backing the findings of the WC requires critical thinking skills, not being a sheeple who believes the myriad conflicting conspiracy theories spouted like they were some kind of fact.
What does this say about the general public?

Unfortunately is says they are quite gullible to have bought into this conspiracy BS.


"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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[deleted]

I have been reading this thread for ages. I can never be bothered to argue with other people. I just let everyone live in their own bubble. I saw this documentary last week and thought that it was very compelling. I had not heard this theory before but it sits well with me.

http://www.channel5.com/shows/jfks-secret-killer-the-evidence/episodes/jfks-secret-killer-the-evidence

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I have been fascinated by the conversation on this thread, JFK, JFK - The Smoking Gun, and other threads. I had hoped more discoveries would be made on this 50th Anniversary of President Kennedy's death. I hope one day the truth - the real truth - will be revealed. Till then, I want to remember his message for Peace.

Now, I can ask myself where did those 50 years go?

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Oswald was guilty. There is a mountain of evidence pointing to the fact that he did it and he did it by himself. The only way that you would seriously entertain the outright ridiculous notion that Oswald was innocent is if you ignored hundreds of pieces of evidence that implicated him and took lots of wild and highly speculative HEARSAY as gospel facts. Evidence trumps hearsay and there was far more evidence pointing to Oswald, both circumstantial and direct evidence. Besides, this movie was specifically created to address the human drama portion of it and how people were affected. It wasn't made to satisfy the your conspiracy theorist lust.

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I don't know if you were talking to me, but I don't have a conspiracy theorist lust.

What I have is an aversion to blaming someone for a murder when he never had a trial, or even any legal advice.

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I tried looking at both sides of the argument here - lone assassin or conspiracy. Here's just a few things that, for me, point to conspiracy.

The original rifle found in the book depository was not a carcano but a mauser. Look up Roger D Craig, a Dallas Police Officer and another suicide to the JFK assassination.

Absolutely no record of Oswald's interrogation. He was drilled for over 30 hours!

Finally, the accounts from Doctors and nurses -people of great integrity - at Parkland who saw JFK'S head wound. Their evidence is most damning.

There is just so much wrong with the official story as to lend it any credibility.
Oswald was, as he said, a patsy.

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Your conclusion that a lone assassin as dumb as Oswald would not have been able to defeat all the redundant security preparations for a presidential motorcade in an open vehicle, shows the common sense you have!

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Just to clear up one matter... I have two ID's on this thread. My computer crashed and when I got back on, my first identity was not accepted. So I created a second account. I am not a troll, whatever that is. So, if you see Kariann with a guitar, the Beatles, or no avatar - they are all me as I am still battling these problems.

Also, it doesn't help when participants delete their posts to make it seem as if a poster is talking to themselves. I have seen as many as 35 posts deleted on one thread.

There is enough information out there to question whether LHO was a lone assassin. It is the fatal shot that killed JFK thatI believe did not come from Oswald's gun.

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Senator Who Investigated JFK Assassination: 'American Journalism Never Followed Up On That Story'


WASHINGTON -- As the 50th anniversary of President John F. Kennedy's death nears, former presidential candidate Gary Hart, a member of the Senate committee that investigated JFK's assassination, said that the press had failed in its responsibility to investigate the truth behind his killing.

Hart served on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Agencies, known as the Church committee, after chairman Frank Church. He recalled that while the committee was investigating the connection between the assassination, the Mafia and plots against Cuban President Fidel Castro, two of the three main figures involved were also killed.

"It's amazing to me that American journalism never followed up on that story very much, because if you found out who killed those two guys, you might have some really interesting information on your hands," Hart, who served as a Democratic senator from Colorado for two terms, told HuffPost in a recent interview.

There were "all kinds of leads" -- had reporters followed them, he said. "I went down to Miami when [Johnny] Roselli was killed and talked to this Dade County sheriff from the Miami Police Department, and they showed me pictures of him being fished out of the water in the barrel and how he'd been killed -- nightmarish stuff. And [Momo Salvatore] Giancana was killed in his own basement with six bullet holes in his throat with a Chicago police car and an FBI car outside his house," he recounted.

According to CIA documents released in 2007, the agency hired Johnny Roselli, a high-ranking mobster, to eliminate Fidel Castro, offering to pay him $150,000. Roselli reportedly declined the money and worked with former FBI agent Robert A. Maheu; Giancana, Al Capone's Chicago mob successor; and Santo Trafficante Jr., a mobster involved in Cuban operations, to unsuccessfully poison Castro with pills. Roselli disappeared soon after testifying before the Church committee, and his body was found inside an oil drum near North Miami Beach. Giancana was found dead at his Chicago home before he could testify to the Church committee. (see more)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/20/jfk-assassination-gary-hart_n_4302598.html?ncid=webmail1

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