What's a religious realist?


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an oxymoron :)

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Newton was religious! And he is probably the smartest guy to have ever lived. Einstein was religious too btw;) but so was nearly every single smart guy that has ever lived

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"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein

"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."
- Albert Einstein

"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment." - Albert Einstein

As for Newton, he lived in a time where *not* being religious was a dangerous thing to admit. His scientific studies must have lead him to question his religious beliefs. The most important thing is that the religiosity of these men wasn't what made them smart. To the contrary, in the case of Einstein it was his conviction that 'god doesn't play dice' that lead to his biggest scientific blunder. If you want to see how intelligence relates to religiosity you should also take into account the amount of religious people among scientists today.

"Among members of the National Academy of Sciences, only 7.0% expressed personal belief, while 72.2% expressed disbelief and another 20.8% were agnostic concerning the existence of a personal god who answers prayer."

Reality is the total opposite of what you seem to want to prove by namedropping scientists.

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Well I was wrong about Einstein, hes a heathen. But Newton was! And Aristotel believed in a Creator too. Which means that the two smartest people ever were religious.

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The ancient greek philosophers were anything but realists. They were very intelligent people, yes, but that wasn't the question.

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It depends greatly on the ancient Greek philosopher. The Ionian prosocratic philosophers and Epicurus were as realist as it gets. They were the first to set the foundations of modern science, speculating about the fundamental properties of matter (atomic theory) and the nature of the world, not based on some preconceived ideology but on testable theories and experiments.

The decadence of ancient Greek thought started with Socrates and Plato, specifically by the most destructive and unscientific philosophical system of all time : Platonic idealism. The system that in turn led to the emergence of the even more deluded neoplatonists, the guys that formed the philosophical backbone of Christianity.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

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True, but since he mentioned Aristotle, I think he was mostly talking about Socrates-Plato-Aristotle. Aristotle even tried to disprove the first real atomic theorist Democritus, so not very realist at all. But some of the very first Greek philosophers such as Thales, Anaximander (though that was more out of ignorance and lack of scientific advancement I think) and Anaximenes and especially Parmenides and Zeno weren't very realistic at all.

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Aristotle believed in creators. I think it was 52 immovable movers that created the universe.

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Well, I don´t know why is that an argument, stephen hawkings is atheist and he is the smartest guy of all times?, people have to start to understand that Science and Religion are not oposite, as the first one comes from rason and studies and the second one is based on faith, so they can´t never be mixed up (you will have to excuse my english level), and I myself don´t believe in anything but wouldn´t call myself an atheist, I guess you are spiritual and admire that, never abandon your believes it makes you stronger.

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Newton and Aristotle weren't the smartest (you should learn to use the word "intelligent") people ever. They wouldn't even make the top 10, Einstein would however. Today, when being an atheist is socially acceptable, the most intelligent people in the world are NOT religious.

There's a very good reason you're decreasing in numbers. According to research, Christians are likely to be a minority by 2018. And then, further into the future - there will be no more Christians. Your religion will be reduced to a mythology, just like the religions before Christianity (Norse mythology, Greek mythology, etc). Just imagine how far humanity will go without religion.

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You don't know *beep* Einstein smarter than Newton? Albert himself would have laughed at you. Einstein claimed that if it were not for Newton, he would not have discovered even half of what he did. Einstein also used other peoples math to work out his theories. The only reason Einstein even became so famous was because the powers that be needed to distract the world from the capitalist hating Tesla who wanted to give the world free power, etc. Tesla was in reality by far the smartest guy of that time and also by far the most famous scientist in the world until the Einstein propaganda took over. Einstein was smart for sure, but few historians would support your claim that he was smarter than Newton.

I'm not a Christian and I'm not even interested in religions, however it is important that we all be truthful and keep our minds open. Close mindedness has been perhaps the biggest and most destructive blunder in human history. I would love to see where you got this 'Christians are likely to be a minority by 2018' claim from? A minority in what area?

Nor is it right for us to look so down upon religion in general as you so obviously do. It's ridiculous. You are no better. Like it or not, humans began their moral evolutionary beginning with religion. It is important to respect the past, rather than respecting personal ignorance. Sure, some religious people have killed and whatever else, however it's not the religion that made anyone do anything. It's people, it's greed, it's lust for power, etc. Religions never killed anyone, ever! People kill people.


My body's a cage, it's been used and abused...and I...LIKE IT!!

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Christianity is a mythology, without any difference to any older mythologies. All the mythological marks are there, they even share many of the same myths. The same applies to Islam, Judaism and every other current religion. There is plenty of poetry and philosophy in all religions, and you can study certain of them for their beauty or to contemplate stuff. But the worst you can do with religions is to let them teach you morality. Then you are royally screwed.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

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Heathen? Seriously mate? What year is this, 1784?

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

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Mighty convenient quotes you picked there to support your ideas only, while ignoring the truth. Einstein did believe in God, this is well known, he just didn't believe in a personal God.

Newton did not shy away from religious conflict as much as some, he in fact published a book about corruptions in Christian scripture. While I'm sure Newton questioned a personal God as well, it is also very clear that he did strongly believe in God nonetheless.

Someone could also put up numbers that greatly challenge those by the NAS. According to the National Center for Science Education, they had surveyed a sample of 1000 individuals listed in American Men and Women of Science. There findings saw that a total of 45% of these scientists believed in some sort of God guided evolution or creation.

One of the leading areas for scientists who believe in God today is in neuroscience, which has been fairly well documented in recent years.

It should also be noted that to admit belief in God for a scientist today can be very detrimental to many aspects of their careers.



My body's a cage, it's been used and abused...and I...LIKE IT!!

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Do you realize that the term "belief in a non personal god" (aka pantheism) has the exact same meaning, both in spirit and in letter, as the term "belief in the universe" or "belief in nature"? And, so, your claims about Einstein make no sense?

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

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I understand what you're saying, for sure. However not even close to everyone would agree. That is only a perception, one way of looking at things.

Anyway, my claims are not mere claims, I have basically only repeated words from the man's own mouth, or at least as he was quoted. The "claims" as you call them may make no sense to you, that because of the way you look at things. Nonetheless, it is quite clear that Einstein often used the word God, and believed in a natural unfolding of a natural being(Universe, whatever you prefer to call it.), but it is well known that he did not believe in a personal God. Einstein is well known for accepting a God something in the likeness of what Spinoza taught/believed. Not much human beings say really makes much sense anyway, especially when you take into account the way light behaves, or the way the quantum world works. Human logic is vastly overrated by most. Human logic is for the most part, insanity!



My body's a cage, it's been used and abused...and I...LIKE IT!! [Evil2]

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To all of you arguing about who's smarter than who and who believed in religion:

Throughout history, a great many extremely intelligent individuals have held a wide variety of religious beliefs. And throughout history, a great many extremely intelligent individuals have rejected religion altogether.

I don't see what is gained by making lists of who saw things which way. It seems to me that the key question concerning religion that each of us must answer is not who believed what, but what do we ourselves believe?

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Reality is the increasing convergence of scientific and spiritual principles. True religion is based on spiritual knowledge that science verifies more fully every day. It's only religious dogma and science that remain opposed. The Dalia Lama possesses of deep love of science and spirituality and writes of their convergence. Belief and faith are not opposed to science. The placebo effect based on belief is on integral part of scientific studies of medicines. Rigorous testing is a integral part of science and spirituality. The reality is the gap between science and spirituality may be more narrow than imagined.

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"Belief and faith are not opposed to science."

Why, yes... yes they are. In near complete opposition.


Religion = I don't know, therefore God.
Science = I don't know, let's find out.

To hold a belief is to discontinue reason. There is no reason to hold any belief. Why "choose" to believe something rather than strive to understand it? And if the answer is not apparent, it seems much wiser to readily admit this and to continue on with a mind open. That's what a scientist does.

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The essence of true spirituality is living in the moment with a open mind. Science and religion require moving beyond dogma and belief systems to a process of discovery. Spiritual and scientific truths are the same truths reached through different paths of discovery.

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The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism. (Albert Einstein)


Religious thought is not a homogenous as many Christians believe. There are religions, as well as interpretations of the words of Jesus, that are completely in harmony with everything science has every found out.

Recently, Stephen Hawking spoke about how the creation of the universe could be understood without using the concept of god. Yet, the words he used to explain it, are identical to the words used by ancient sages, thousands of years ago, and recorded in the Indian Vedas to describe how god came to be. He speaks of the universe, they speak of god ... using the same words. He speaks how the universe came to be, of the Big Bang and how the universe will eventually contract and "explode" again in a new Big Bang .... and they speak how god came to be, and eventually after eons cease to be, and manifest again in a new surge of consciousness.

Yeah, I am sure that Einstein did not believe in the nice old bearded gent, sitting above the clouds demanding obedience.

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Einstein was not religious.

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Exactly !

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While I definitely agree it's odd to pair those words together to describe a person, I think they (the writers of the plot outline) mean to say is that she is religious and she is realistic (as in the opposite of idealistic/romantic, she probably verges on cynical) - two separate adjectives. He - the romantic atheist - is a romantic at heart and is an atheist. Just a fancy way of saying that they're opposites.

Note: I haven't seen the movie, I am just guessing at the characteristics of the main characters based on the IMDb plot outline.

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Lol, you atheists can be really wacky:)

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No, we just don´t like bs like burning people alive, condemning condoms , protecting pedophiles etc.


Right because thats an accurate description of all religous people. If you personally feel the need to cloak yourself in ignorance and stereotype people to be an atheist it is definately you with the problem. It's people like you that give other atheists a bad name.

Please consider me as an alternative to suicide

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It might not be an accurate description of all religious people, but it is a fair criticism that doesn't even scratch the surface.

The ones who don't have their hands dirty are empowering those who do.

How many more millions of people have to be murdered or oppressed before we can stop being polite about this crap?

Beliefs are the eyelids of the mind

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The ones who don't have their hands dirty are empowering those who do.


That's funny, that's the same reasoning al Qaeda uses in attacking civilians. It's also the same as Bush's "You're either with us, or with the terrorists" line.

I guess what I'm getting at is that your reasoning is idiocy.

How many more millions of people have to be murdered or oppressed before we can stop being polite about this crap?


You must have an atheist/communist fantasy in your head. Spoiler alert: people will never stop murdering and oppressing other people. Look at how wonderful and peaceful the atheist USSR was.

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That's funny, that's the same reasoning al Qaeda uses in attacking civilians.

Yeah, I'm not advocating physically attacking anyone. You are sensationalizing what I said. What I am advocating, is shining a light on, through philosophical discussion, the harm in which religious beliefs have caused and continue to cause. I am not saying people should be forced to believe or disbelieve anything, just simply that it should be an open discussion, as opposed to "the truth is on our side, so I don't care what you have to say" mentality.

You must have an atheist/communist fantasy in your head.

Of course you would equate being an atheist with being a communist, where did you get that talking point from I wonder? I am not an atheist anyways. I am agnostic, leaning towards believing in a creator and there being some form of divine truth or justice. I choose not to dig into any trench regarding what god is though because I acknowledge that I am only guessing and I cannot particularly disprove any one set of beliefs. That is where the fighting starts.

people will never stop murdering and oppressing other people

So I guess we should never examine why than, because it is inevitable? It sounds like that is what you are saying. I disagree. I think we need to start thinking more critically and examining the consequences of our beliefs and attitudes towards others. Get it?

Beliefs are the eyelids of the mind

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Every human on planet Earth is religious. There is insurmountable proof. Modern atheists are no different, as evidenced by their absolute faith in the nonsensical Christian Straw Man.

[quote]What I am advocating, is shining a light on, through philosophical discussion, the harm in which religious beliefs have caused and continue to cause./quote]

Take a look at the activities of the enormous number of Christian churches that dot the American landscape. What are their primary activities? The answer: professing the teachings of Christ, charitable giving, running local missions to feed the homeless, etc.

On the very sad day that the modern atheist movement manages to wipe these churches, and Christianity, off the map, what will take its place? What utopian atheist moral system will replace Christianity? On that note, how to atheists derive their morality, anyway?

It's been my experience that the foundation of the modern atheist movement is hatred for Christianity and the people who call themselves Christians.

The teachings of Christ boil down to two simple concepts:
1 - Love God with all your heart
2 - Love your neighbor more than yourself.

Does that mean that the opposite of these teachings would be the replacement for a world without Christianity? "Hate God and hate your neighbor?" Is that the world atheists crave? Sounds awful.

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Atheist USSR. A nation of hundreds of millions of orthodox Christians PRETENDING to pay lip service [cowering in fear] to the ideology of Communism as seen by the the enforcers of that misused philosophy. Same as other philosophies in Nazi Germany [oddly though it seems to be an accepted cult in most of the nations that warred against that evil]. Red China another religion killing philosophy.

The great scientists and thinkers of their days may well not have had religion. But religion is that man made set of rules which differ so much due to the I am in the right thinking of [not so very good] men. Many religions [cults] die every year due to some foretelling not actually happening. Some like Courish and Jones dramatically so.

How anyone thinks they can get their heads and limited brains around the creation of all that we can behold is a sign of arrogance. An earthly ability to have ever communicated in any form with an all seeing an knowing GOD a delusion. Interpreting those conversations DREAMS more delusion. We have no more allegiance to this being than termites do or have for us.

Scientists realise this gap in actual knowledge. They cannot fully explain it for our tiny minds. Our priests of today are NO DIFFERENT to those charlatans we arre told about quite often belonging to the ancient civilisations Greece, Babylon, Sumeria, Egypt etc, etc. While it is not as much about having a power over the sovereign at the time we also in the UK have a Queen [God Bless Her] who has expressed belief in something akin to what was known as the 'Divine Right of Kings'. She is also the defender of THE faith. Something her eldest wishes to change as being the defender of faith. That will be good for SATANISTS which is also a faith and of course SATAN was much beloved by GOD so much that he has yet to think of a way of destroying him. This Divine Right is the belief that GOD manipulated the whole of our monarchy from way back when [including William the CONKER teaching us a millennium of dislike for the FRENCH who stole our [his] lands. While I do accept Her Majesty as the figurehead for this nation I also feel that unless she also is ROLE Playing this is a delusional belief. Also note that this applies to all kings and queens and presidents etc. God has determined their place. God made us vote for Cameron, Putin, Kim blah blah, Obama and may well have blessed every terrorist action to date. Well allowed it to happen.

With the universe expanding in all directions at perhaps a rate that is incalculable even by Newton, Einstein, and the many others, due to fact we cannot know its boundary [unless you are a red neck creationist who thinks it is a big blanket with holes in it to let little lights shine through] this alone should stop the thoughts about RELIGIONS based on what ever you wake up in the morning thinking about. Just look at them. Scientology, Mormonism, those mentioned above, Islam, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, all since Judaism had the breakaway of so called Christians [Invented by a master of spin called PAUL/SAUL].

I have no religion now. I do not have a faith in this personal GOD but I do not understand how this has all come about and will not pretend otherwise. I will try and live my life within those known ethical rules and hope not to harm for any cruel reason. I do not accept that scientists practice religion in that church going sense believing that the thumping [rich maybe mostly thieving and total sinning bastard] at the pulpit is special. I can call it GOD but what does that then mean. The chicken and the egg question will last for some time.

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If the above are "just a minority" the majority who protects them and does not cast them out is equally to blame. Christian churches are corrupt from top to bottom, period.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

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NAMBLA is an atheist organization and exists exclusively to protect pedophiles. So, you're wrong on that point.

Ask any American atheist what they would like to see happen to Christians and I guarantee you a large percentage would be perfectly fine with burning them alive.

As for the "condemning condoms" part of your statement, that is a Roman Catholic concept, not a Christian concept. Christ had no opinion on condoms, as they did not exist while he walked the Earth. The majority of protestant Christian churches are agnostic on the use of condoms, but do counsel people to not participate in "sexual immorality."

On the subject of morality, where do atheist derive theirs? The law? The government?

If so, remember this: Every Jew that was systematically murdered by the German Nazi government from 1936-1945 was done so with the full support of the government and the law. The same goes for every political prisoner in the USSR from 1917-1981. There are countless other examples. The point being that law <> morality; government <> morality.

Perhaps you can explain what, exactly, modern atheists despise about the two fundamental teachings of Christ:
1 - Love God with all your heart
2 - Love your neighbor more than yourself


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Someone who believes in god but hates other things like fantasy stories, fairy tales. Probably only enjoys non-fiction. Does not dream or allow their imagination to wander. They compartmentalize their rationality and religious views. Now, call it oxymoronic, but it is a very real thing. I know people in real life for whom religious realist is the perfect description.

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Speaking as someone who has seen this film, I am inclined to say that "religious realist" means that the plot summary writer has not. My guess is that "realist" was supposed to contrast with "romantic" and that "religious" was supposed to contrast with "atheist." All this was to create the idea that this was the story of opposites attracting, which does not really describe the film.

There are people like the ones that a13815 described, but Elise is not one of them. I would describe her as more spiritual than religious. She most decidedly allowed her imagination to wander and took comfort in fantasy. Didier was an atheist and very anti-spiritual. In this regard, he was by far the more realist character. Other than this, the biggest difference between them was that Elise was covered in tattoos, whereas Didier did not see the point. Both were romantic, although Didier might have been slightly more romantic. Didier was more prone to ranting, but Elise was hardly a silent character.

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Wow, that's good to know, but sort of disappointing. I was interested in the film if it would have been about the religious realist vs romantic atheist, but now that you're saying it's not, I'm having doubts. Maybe that's why they gave it that description, to mislead...

Hmm, I may check out the film anyway, but at least now I'll know what to expect. Thanks.

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It's just a poorly written plot description having no basis on the movie at all.

Their "differences" spring up out of nowhere in only two or three key scenes. It is not the subject of the movie or their romance. Maybe it could have been if the director wasn't jerking us around the whole time, pulling the rug out from underneath us and his characters for apparently no other reason but to create confusion.

Scenes would start and then cut to the middle of another sequence some time later or before the one we're in, and then we double back or forward to where we were originally, wondering why the heck that is.

It gets in the way of us getting to know these people and the rhythm of their lives, and how they think and feel about things.

When religion comes up the first time, having to do with an explanation about what becomes of a bird after it dies, this couple would have been together for what, 6 years or so at that point? Wouldn't they have discussed how they were going to bring up their child and what those answers would be?

Didier seems made to behave insensitively because of the requirement of the screenplay. He could have laid out several avenues for her, but no, he just callously tries to take the bird while telling her he's going to throw it in the garbage because it's dead.

Gee, thanks dad.

No parent would've reacted the way Didier was made to act in that scene. In fact, much of his behavior was made to be very erratic, or maybe it only seemed that way because there was never any follow-through with character development. Just when one scene gets going, we go somewhere else and then back again as I said.

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I agree completely. The editing of this movie ruined it majorly.

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There are no such things as Religious and Realistic. It is jsut like saying I believe in the Tooth Fairy and I am realistic...

"The only thing a gun does is focusing an explosion in one direction"

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In the plot summary "religious realist" is contrasted to "romantic atheist", which should give the answer, or some potential ones. At first blush you could say it's simply a twisty and seemingly oxymoronic way of framing a clash of lovers along two dimensions. Also you could say that religious and romantic are non-modifying adjectives; Elise is a realist by character who happens to be religious, Didier is an atheist who happens to be romantic. I don't think the synopsis writer has made a mistake or is lazy.

I think it's more likely that Elise feels that religion is, not necessarily true, but necessary, particularly given the ubiquity of grief and disappointment, and that people need religion to make it through life; hence, a "religious realist". She never says that their daughter has or will return as a bird, but that she will believe that if she wants and resents Didier trying to make her not, or mock her for maybe doing so. She seems more temperamentally soured on life than Didier. Didier is more optimistic about what earthly life has to offer; he is romantic about music and America, for example, in a way Elise is not. Although I don't quite know what to make of Elise changing her name to Alabama. Maybe a last ditch attempt to try life on Didier's terms.

Didier could be said to be a "romantic atheist" insofar as he sees atheism as a liberating and inherently progressive thing, and religion as a shackle, even though his anti-religious rants are clearly meant to be understood as a reaction to the death of his child.

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