MovieChat Forums > Noah (2014) Discussion > So basically it all boils down to incest...

So basically it all boils down to incest.


Look, I don't care if you religious types want to believe stories - regardless of how entirely full of holes and lacking in logic they are, or that basic empirical observation or the application of a modicum of rational, intelligent thought would quickly tell you maybe you should start questioning some things...

believe what you want. I won't try to stop you.

I'll just say this:

according to this story, there is 1 unrelated female, who gives birth to two daughters.
Now, for the human race to continue, I think you know full well what has to happen - considering the only males they could possibly mate with are direct relations - they would, in short, need to copulate with their uncles.

And then what?
The children these girls would have with their uncles would have who to mate with?
Oh yes, that's right. Family members again.

So you are talking about generations upon generations of incest-borne children.

Not to mention, sure didn't take long for all of those inbred kiddies to magically morph into the various groups you see today - Asians, Africans, Native Americans, Australian Aboriginals, etc. Nevermind that written language in China alone goes back further than the story takes place.

Also, don't you suppose there's one fairly MAJOR hole in this whole tale? Besides the ones I've already spoken of, I mean.

Yes, that's right. I'm talking about volume. The bible makes the dimensions of the ark quite clear. You're talking about a vessel less than 500 feet long and 80 feet wide. Smaller by far than the Titanic, for instance.
Now, do you realize just how many species - even ignoring those which can fly or swim - on this planet? Even if you only had two of each, you have to realize that there ARE:
Bird species number around 10,000 (known) - not all of which - in fact, a very significant portion of which - are incapable of flight or at the very least incapable of remaining airborne for as long as it would require for dry land to reappear. Furthermore, even assuming they could, what would they eat? Therefor, one must reason the vast majority of these 10,000 species would need to be aboard the ark. Birds are relatively small in most cases, but you are talking about 20,000 individual birds, which, small or large, are going to take up a massive amount of space even if you stacked them 40 feet high.
Next, you have the mammals. Of which there are roughly 5,400 species known to exist - and of those, the VAST majority are NOT aquatic - in fact nearly all mammal species with the exception of whales, dolphins, seals and sealions, are terrestrial.
Quite a lot of terrestrial mammals weigh in excess of 100 pounds and some weigh TONS. Even assuming an average weight of 20 pounds, you're talking about 216,000 pounds given two of each - 108 tons. But we all know well that there are also many large mammal species, so the total actually greatly exceeds that - THOUSANDS of tons.
Next, reptiles. Of which there are more than 10,000 of varying sizes between thousands of pounds and a few ounces. Add minimum another 20,000 animals.
Next....invertebrates.
Insects alone number about a million KNOWN species - vastly terrestrial. So perhaps two million insects on board.
Then of course you have other invertebrates, plant species which cannot survive underwater for extended periods of time There are millions of these.

Now, consider all of the above along with the fact that all of these animals are going to need FOOD (without eating each other), and you've got a serious problem. You would require enough bio-mass to outweigh the RMS Titanic, which was just under 900 feet long and 50,000 TONS. Far larger than the ark.

And, you also run into this issue: noah is shown allowing animals such as grizzly bears (north american, mind you), African elephants, Asian Elephants, kangaroos (Australian), Lions (African), and myriad other species on board which are only found in specific habitats and which are actually unable to survive in habitats outside of their norm - such as the polar bear. First of all, they would have had to swim across the oceans of earth just to reach Noah. Second of all, they'd have to survive in many cases in an environment they are not at all suited for and, by the way, EAT (problematic for the carnivores considering if they eat any of the other animals that species is kaput) - even some of the herbivores would only be able to eat certain types of plants found only in one part of the world which Noah would not have had access to. SO....how'd they survive?

Additionally, even if you assume the fish would be fine all by themselves by virtue of being able to swim - you'd also be wrong. A global flood would mix fresh and salt water, warm and cold, and this would actually prove QUITE disasterous for the fish of the world - saltwater species die quickly in fresh water and vice versa, with very few exceptions.

Finally, water volume - there simply isn't enough water present on EARTH - even if you melted all of the ice caps and dumped every drop of water from the atmosphere - to cover the planet with water - certainly not the mountainous regions. This includes the aquifers of earth -subsurface water just is not enough (we geologists have mapped that out quite well). In fact, it wouldn't even come CLOSE, if you actually bother to crunch the numbers.

Subsurface water alone would not even be enough to account for 1% of the volume needed to cover that much ground in 40 days and 40 nights.
Some rather bright people have calculated that in order for the rain to make up for the rest of it - in that time span - it would have to rain an average of six inches per MINUTE in order to match the description of water coverage in the bible. Basically, this isn't rain - this would be like an endless bucket of water being poured onto your head, not individual droplets, and a wooden structure such as the ark would have no chance of surviving that kind of a beating.

Combine that with problems with wood rot in the years it'd take to build it, problems with manpower and tools given known metals and crafting methods of the time, CLEAR problems with the geologic record, ice core records (many of which go back more than 10,000 years), problems with the paleontological record, human genetics (genetic markers actually provide a very clear "clock" in terms of when certain mutations arose and thus tell us when certain populations of people split off from one another - turns out, a LOT longer than 6,000 years ago), and basic intelligent thought processes....and you begin to mayyyyybe see why some MIGHT question this, eh?

But hey. Believe what you want to. Clearly no amount of readily available higher education has swayed you yet. Consider this though - if your god gave you this ability to think, reason, experiment, and question everything, why shouldn't you be able to question a religious text written over centuries by barely literate men who knew less about the world around them than the average first grade student does today? Not to mention, passages written by men born centuries or thousands of years after the events they were writing about. Don't you suppose they MAY have gotten some things wrong? Hey...I'm not saying there's no god. Honestly, I couldn't answer that - I don't have the data to say yes or no. But your god can still possibly exist even if one old book just happens to be full of crap. It could be 99% wrong, and your god could still actually exist. Proving it wrong - or questioning its content - doesn't mean anything other than you are questioning the works of fallible men and maybe your interpretation of your god is wrong - whether or not a god exists isn't the question so much as whether or not some writings are just stories. For centuries, people wrote of the giant squid as if it were myth, and yes, many stories were shown to be bollocks - but the squid itself was proven to exist. Stories can be wrong while still having some CORE elements correct - such as the existence of a creating force in the universe. Is it really so bad if only 10% of it is true? What's really important, after all, is that you have a force greater and more powerful than man can ever be to look to - not whether or not the stories related to it are all 100% true.

Question everything. If there's a god, clearly he or she gave you the ability and the brain to do so. Use that brain. Don't take a 2,000 year old book as fact without questioning it first.



reply

So what?

reply

So what?

It means it wasn't incest. Unless, of course, you mean you boinked YOUR sister. 


Religion is like a rocking chair -- a lot of work to get nowhere.

reply

Well, either we evolved as a species: adaptations arising and flourishing or dying off and collectively moving our species away from the last dominant phase via interstitial stages, providing depth to the gene pool... Or not terribly long ago we all came from one example human, and then lived without evolving at all, until a great flood where our tiny gene pool (which started with one individual) was then reduced again to some few examples that needed to procreate with their immediate kin...

So yeah, either you believe in genetics, or you don't.

reply

So yeah, either you believe in genetics, or you don't.

Actually, facts do not need anyone to believe in them, unlike certain fantasy creatures like Tinkerbell and various and sundry deities...

“Your head is on the block and you worry about your whiskers?”

reply

I would think both require people to first be aware of them, and to then believe them. 'Facts' are after all our best estimate... until something more likely displaces them. Ain't none of us with access to Kantian reality.

reply

'Facts' are after all our best estimate... until something more likely displaces them. Ain't none of us with access to Kantian reality.

Nope, it is only what we believe are facts that is "our best estimate".

Facts (and reality) exist independent of either human experience or knowledge.

But indeed, true knowledge is accessible through valid perception. Read Ludwig Wittgenstein for the clearest thoughts on epistemology...

“Your head is on the block and you worry about your whiskers?”

reply

Read Ludwig Wittgenstein for the clearest thoughts on epistemology...

Erm...you do realize that poster is angling for the 'god o' the gaps' cop-out, yes? Do you seriously think he's going to so much as crack a page of Wittgenstein???



BTW, here's an interesting note which you are uniquely placed to appreciate, though you probably already know about it. But here goes anyway. One of my favorite pieces of music since early youth, and my absolute favorite by the composer Maurice Ravel, all of whose music I love, is his Piano Concerto for the Left Hand. Thanks to record liner notes, I'd always known it was written for a Paul Wittgenstein whose right arm was blown off in WWI. Then, only a few years ago I read a fascinating review in The New Yorker of a biography about the entire Wittgenstein family...a mighty odd bunch, if the review is to be believed. Imagine my astonishment to read that the Paul for whom Ravel wrote his Concerto was Ludwig's younger brother.

Apparently none of my liner notes saw fit to note that particular detail. That, or I just missed it.


Religion is like a rocking chair -- a lot of work to get nowhere.

reply

Apparently none of my liner notes saw fit to note that particular detail

Oooh, I sure loved me my liner notes! In fact, one of the things I hated most when CDs first came out was the absence or extreme brevity of such in that format.

I also was fond of that Ravel concerto from early on and did not hear about Ludwig until later when I started studying philosophy.

I am sure you are aware that much else was composed specifically for Paul, though the Ravel Piano Concerto is deservedly the most celebrated...

“Your head is on the block and you worry about your whiskers?”

reply

Liner notes were great, all right. Although some CDs still come with them, especially classical and musicals. For instance, the CD of the Schmidt/Jones show Celebration came with a pretty hefty booklet, much more detailed than what the LP had. It all depends on who's producing the disks, I suppose.

I'd have thought PW must have had other things written for him but I'm sadly ignorant of what. Guess I should wiki him.


Religion is like a rocking chair -- a lot of work to get nowhere.

reply

Liner notes were great, all right. Although some CDs still come with them, especially classical and musicals...

Of course, but when CDs first came out, there were hardly any notes, or just enough to fit on the one small sheet, no booklets...I guess some people must have complained, or some collective action was taken by the LNWAAA (liner notes writers of america and abroad)...thank god for unions!



“Your head is on the block and you worry about your whiskers?”

reply

All hail the great LNWAAA! What would we music geeks do without them???


Religion is like a rocking chair -- a lot of work to get nowhere.

reply

All hail the great LNWAAA! What would we music geeks do without them???

Not to be confused with the LNWAAAO (living nude without anything at all on)...

I usually enjoyed the historical essays more than the analytical ones...in any case it was a great education.


“Your head is on the block and you worry about your whiskers?”

reply

the LNWAAAO

I have my union card.



I usually enjoyed the historical essays more than the analytical ones...

I concur. I mentioned the Celebration notes specifically because they gave me an insight into the show's initial New York critical reaction, something of which I was quite unaware even though I had a strong personal connection with the work dating from my high school days, and even played one of the lead parts in a college production.

Remembered particularly is the reaction of the legendary Broadway critic, Walter Kerr. To make a long story short, Celebration is about an impoverished boy vying with a powerful millionaire for the affections of the ingenue. The virile kid wins, of course, and one of the climactic lyrics goes like this:

Winter and summer,
Fire and cold.
See how they battle,
Young against the old.

Winter and summer,
Death versus birth.
See how they struggle
To possess the earth.
At that time Kerr was a man in his 70s, a wealthy and respected scion of the Broadway theater world who recognized himself in the show's decrepit villain. To paraphrase his review:
After the performance, I joined the other aging critics in the lobby where we slashed our wrists together.


Religion is like a rocking chair -- a lot of work to get nowhere.

reply

holy sh!t. you two are still rimming each other?

reply

It's a fable. That's all.

reply

Fascinating....tl;dr

I'm not going to stop the wheel. I'm going to break the wheel.

reply

"according to this story, there is 1 unrelated female, who gives birth to two daughters"

This did not happen in the Bible version of Noah. Noah's sons all had wives and they went into the ark along with their husbands. I want to get that out of the way first.

As for the question of incest: the laws dealing with marrying a close relative did not even come into existence until after the time of Moses and the crossing of the Red Sea.

reply

the laws dealing with marrying a close relative

This isn't about human laws, it's about the genetic damage. No population with so stagnant a gene pool would ever survive. Just another foolish impossibility of this fantasy tale.


Religion is like a rocking chair -- a lot of work to get nowhere.

reply

I don't believe the movie but I will disagree with your assertion as follows:

A stagnant gene pool wouldn't be a problem since humans had just been created a short time earlier. (I think the movie says 10 generations since Adam and Eve.) We can assume God created Adam and Eve without dangerous genetic material, i.e., recessive genes for CF or CSA.

So there wasn't much opportunity for mutations to occur. So things we worry about today (i.e., genetic disorders) simply didn't exist until many generations later.

reply

...and the Tooth Fairy will bring you a quarter.


Religion is like a rocking chair -- a lot of work to get nowhere.

reply

We can assume God created Adam and Eve without dangerous genetic materia

So there wasn't much opportunity for mutations to occur.

Yet presumably gawd created the biology (who else?) that allowed such dangerous mutations to occur.

Now why would he do that?

For all the talk about a loving god and it being mankind which chooses evil, the deck sure seems stacked at every deal...

“Your head is on the block and you worry about your whiskers?”

reply

tl;dr
But in regards to incest, Adam and Eve had three male children so that was clearly an ok thing from the beginning, plus the bible is FULL of all kinds of insest, rape and other various forms of things that are generally not ok.

And devils advocate here in regards to the millions of kinds of animals (sorry fundamentalists) but evolution (and perhaps maybe the ark was a TARDIS, you don't know)

Definitely not a believer of the bible in any literal sense, don't consider it to be much more than a collection of ramblings that people created to try and explain our existence before they discovered science.

reply

a collection of ramblings that people created to try and explain our existence before they discovered science

Well put, and my feeling precisely. And as such, it contains as much that's ghastly as good, this tale being one of the more ghastly sections. The frightening thing is that so many today are unable to discern how primitive a document it is, and how dangerous it is to follow it blindly as if it reflected the changes in knowledge, both social and scientific, which have come after.


Religion is like a rocking chair -- a lot of work to get nowhere.

reply

"So you are talking about generations upon generations of incest-borne children."

Well, that explains perfectly why the humanity is retarded, no?

reply

You forgot the maybe most important problem of them all: the sheer amount of feces from so many beings, and in such an enclosed space :D The outcome, if all of that was possible in the 1st place that is, would be not only sufocation, but the creation of tons of methane gas which would explode the whole ark at the slightest spark from the fires that we saw heating them.
That's right, the animals and the last of Men, all perishing from a giant fart explosion. Finito. the End. So much for god's plan.

«Proving it wrong - or questioning its content - doesn't mean anything other than you are questioning the works of fallible men and maybe your interpretation of your god is wrong - whether or not a god exists isn't the question so much as whether or not some writings are just stories»

This is something that every fanatic "christian" american should read. Well done.

reply



ι ѕнall deѕтroy yoυr нappιneѕѕ ιғ ιт ιѕ тнe laѕт тнιng ι do.

reply

Excellent post. Would add a few more points. Even if we would concede that they got all the animals on that boat and all the food they needed, they would have died of sleep deprivation and exhaustion since they would have to feed animals 24/7.
Then we have the fact that not even the most skilled ship builders could build a wood ship some 150-200 feet shorter then the ark in the beginning of the 1900's without it twisting and turning so wildly at sea that it constantly leaked and finally foundered. Religious people want us to believe that 8 people with no shipbuilding experience managed to do it 4500 years ago!
Adding to your point about the incest kiddies diversifying all over the world they also would need to get from 8 to at least 15000-20000 people in just 200 years since the pyramids was built around 4300 years ago.

This quote is the best I found to describe arguing with a religious person: "Debating an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the pigeon will just knock over the pieces, *beep* on the board and strut around like it won anyway"

reply

This quote is the best I found to describe arguing with a religious person: "Debating an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the pigeon will just knock over the pieces, *beep* on the board and strut around like it won anyway"


Why are you arguing with a religious person? I have never understood this. If you are indeed atheist, then you have nothing to gain by virtue of argument. A religious person, who by definition has faith, is not likely to be swayed by your argument. In addition, unlike a religious person who feels compelled by a religious institution to convert and save non-believers, as an atheist there is no cause for you to "believe" in or have "faith" in, so why are you arguing or attempting to convert in the first place?

reply

Why are you arguing with a religious person? I have never understood this. If you are indeed atheist, then you have nothing to gain by virtue of argument

Nothing personal, perhaps, but it is a good idea to promote rationality whenever possible.

Sometimes that religious person seems, or maybe only pretends, to be reasonable, and thus may by swayed by logic. Admittedly this is rare, so I, for one, don't go out of my way seeking such confrontations. For instance, I didn't come to this site for that reason.

More importantly, just speaking up, not letting such nonsense pass unchallenged, might sometimes act as prohylactic for those that are younger or more naive.

What's that saying about how evil triumphs...?


“Your head is on the block and you worry about your whiskers?”

reply

so I, for one, don't go out of my way seeking such confrontations. For instance, I didn't come to this site for that reason.

Really? Because that is literally all you have done for the better part of a year here.


What's that saying about how evil triumphs...

Assumes your philosopies are ultimately 'correct' of course. Truths are defined by the parameters you put on them.

reply

Really? Because that is literally all you have done for the better part of a year here.

Yes, really. I generally go to those boards of films I have just viewed.

And I have never....never...started a conversation about religion herein.

You, on the other hand...

Assumes your philosopies are ultimately 'correct' of course. Truths are defined by the parameters you put on them.

My only "parameter" is to be self-consistent; my philosophy is to be rational, which, by definition, is correct; just as my philosophy to promote what is good is good.

I see you are back to your old silly word games...you know, a god that doesn't have to be reasonable or rational or logical because you say it is beyond all those things.



“Your head is on the block and you worry about your whiskers?”

reply


And I have never....never...started a conversation about religion herein
right, thats why you are here talking about the movie constantly.
You've easily posted over a thousand times on this board and if you're honest maybe 2% of those posts were about the movie.

just as my philosophy to promote what is good is good.

Whats good for you is good for everyone? I can think of a few billion people who could disagree with that.
My only "parameter" is to be self-consistent
again, mr ego. You are not the decider, the definer of the correct human experience. Are you?

I see you are back to your old silly word games...you know, a god that doesn't have to be reasonable or rational or logical because you say it is beyond all those things
word games? Are we not in the arena of words? Did I mention god.. uh no. But I'll bite - A god idea that is in direct contradiction to what is physically possible/provable cannot exist. I can't see how you came to the conclusion I would disagree with that. Weak straw man attempt bud.

reply

right, thats why you are here talking about the movie constantly.

I said I never STARTED any such conversation.

Whats good for you is good for everyone

Good is good for everyone, the definition, whatever language you use, or no language at all, remains the same.

I never specified any particulars. Perhaps a lot of people might disagree; their philosophy might be to promote only what is good for themselves and be at best indifferent to what is good for others.

again, mr ego. You are not the decider

I never said I was; of course there is the rare occasion where I might be wrong, even more often are times when I am uncertain or lack some desired knowledge.

But again, is it unreasonable to expect or desire such discussions to follow the few ground rules of logic and rationality?

And yes, there are times when the errors of logic are so glaring that it is not difficult to point them out.

For instance, the existence of a deity that has the properties typically consigned to ultimate supernatural beings is inconsistent and thus logically self-contradictory.

One must either modify those properties or admit the error; you cannot just willy nilly claim some different sort of reason or logic. That is an error in language, not of theology.

I can't see how you came to the conclusion I would disagree with that. Weak straw man attempt bud.

Speaking of straw men, that seems to be your most frequent go to...even here. We were discussing why one might get into these sorts of discussions with followers of various religions and faiths.

My main point all along has been that not only are those religions and faiths logically inconsistent, but in being so promote a sort of irrationality which may be quite dangerous for the rest of us and for our world.

You may have been pretty weaselly concerning your own specific beliefs, but the fact of the matter is that you often use the same sort of arguments, with the same weaknesses and tendencies (such as the silly word games) that religious apologists use, and with the additional similarity of not furthering any useful discussion.

Now who is stroking their ego...?

“Your head is on the block and you worry about your whiskers?”

reply


Good is good for everyone, the definition, whatever language you use
and yet I think you find it almost impossible to admit any good comes from religion - for example.
But thats because they are selfish right? Only thinking about what is good for them. Not like your philosophy which encompasses the greater good always. Something like that?
If its not good for everyone then its not good? Elaborate.

For instance, the existence of a deity that has the properties typically consigned to ultimate supernatural beings is inconsistent and thus logically self-contradictory
so would you say religion is fine - so long as people don't believe in a god that contradicts the known natural laws?

I'm not calling you out for arguing against natural impossibilities. Im calling you out because you seem to be implying that there can be such a thing as illogical morality. Its not something that is provable - you can't have both ends of the stick picking and choosing which things need proving and which don't.

reply

and yet I think you find it almost impossible to admit any good comes from religion - for example.
But thats because they are selfish right?


For some, perhaps, but more because they are lazy, looking for easy answers for questions that may not have answers, either because human comprehension is limited or because some of those questions may not have any real meaning.

But you seem to keep missing my point...I am not claiming any infallibility in categorizing things that are good or are not good, only emphasizing the validity of the category itself; that the concept of "goodness" is defined and non-malleable.

If its not good for everyone then its not good? Elaborate.

This is a whole other kettle of chips, and there is no perfect theory of ethics which would satisfy all possible situations.

Speaking of which, there may indeed be some good things that come from religion...primarily I might think of the artistic works which were either inspired by religious thought or needed the patronage of religious institutions to exist.

Bach, Michelangelo, etc., etc., many of the sine qua nons of our culture.

Even the film in question here, Noah, which I consider a decent enough work, can be put in this "boat".

so would you say religion is fine - so long as people don't believe in a god that contradicts the known natural laws?

In so far as some belief system is self-contradictory, it is just not factual, it is wrong.

As to being fine or good, probably for many people religious belief can be benign and innocuous; however, too often such beliefs can harbor an irrationality that can be systemically cancerous. I don't think this is really debatable; apologists mostly try to cite countervailing benefits or some equally insidious product of non-belief.

Im calling you out because you seem to be implying that there can be such a thing as illogical morality. Its not something that is provable - you can't have both ends of the stick picking and choosing which things need proving and which don't.

This is just not correct. You don't have to be able to prove something illogical for it to be so. Certainly any morality that has as a basis self-contradictory principles can be deemed illogical. And whatever problems a tenable theory of ethics may entail, certainly we can demand that it be logical, that it hold up to at least a semblance of reason.





“Your head is on the block and you worry about your whiskers?”

reply

Certainly any morality that has as a basis self-contradictory principles can be deemed illogical
and we have come full circle to the point adressed in the other thread.

You are certainly able to comprehend philosophical ideas but as soon as religion comes into play all of a sudden unless its rooted in science then its useless.
Which is simply close minded. On a philosophical level religion is as valid as philosophy rooted in anything else.

reply

as soon as religion comes into play all of a sudden unless its rooted in science then its useless.

Again, not what I said; but any religion pretending to be rooted in science is worse than useless.

On a philosophical level religion is as valid as philosophy rooted in anything else

Except philosophy is rooted in logic (it is usually the first course taught for study in this discipline).

Religion? Not so much...most often it is sort of an anti-philosophy.

It is not closed minded to insist upon a common language for discourse, and a standard for the usage of any terminology that does not shift upon every happenstance or convenience.



“Your head is on the block and you worry about your whiskers?”

reply

Logical and fact are different terms. Your inability to distinguish them hinders you greatly.
Whether religion is logical or not is a much larger and more complex question than whether religious texts are factual. And I don't think you can tell the difference.

reply