The rape victim's website, where do you stand? - The Newsroom (2012) Discussion

[–] azn824-1 10 years ago

Don was right. This episode was actually great timing with real life events, since it came to light that the UVA girl who cried rape in the Rolling Stone article fabricated it.

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[–] VerbalGoddess 10 years ago

"the UVA girl who cried rape in the Rolling Stone article fabricated it"
The STORY has been called into question because the editor did not contact the alleged rapists for comment.

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[–] legnadibrom 10 years ago

r u sure?
becuz i read that the UVA girl who cried rape in the Rolling Stone article fabricated it

Lee's Daniel's' THe Butler'

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[–] VerbalGoddess 10 years ago

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/09/us/fraternity-and-sorority-groups-ca ll-for-uva-to-lift-ban-on-greek-life.html?_r=0

The story was current as of 10 hours ago. Even the University hasn't lifted the Greek suspension. People always doubt rape survivors, which is why rapes are not reported. I realize some women may lie, just like guilty men and women go free in our justice system all of the time. It doesn't make the criminals less guilty. However, just because something cannot be proven in court does not mean it isn't true.

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[–] crossmr 10 years ago

They doubt them because it's so easy to make up. Lacking any other evidence in a he said/she said case, it's extremely easy to basically say anything. I could claim you raped me last night. How believable is it? Why should it be?

There are many kinds of distinct situations that rape occur in, and the common situation of what rape was seems to be much less frequent now and replaced with other scenarios of rape which are much more vague and come with a lot less evidence.

As much as 10% are completely false. As much as another 40% lack enough evidence to tell either way if it's true or false, and an even further amount that go to trial the person is not convicted.

The majority of rape reports do not end in someone being found guilty in a court of law and that's why people doubt them. They're extremely damaging, can be made up on a whim, and don't have a high success rate of prosecution.

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[–] VerbalGoddess 10 years ago

Rape accusations aren't 'easy to make up' at all. District Attorney's require EVIDENCE prior to taking someone to trial. Generally, physical evidence isn't the same when a woman just has sex. Rape looks different. Also, if a woman is drunk, she is UNABLE to consent to sex. Incapacitated people can't legally consent to sex and we need to teach our sons and daughters this fact. If a woman has sex with seven men at a fraternity while drunk (for example), it is considered rape in the eyes of the law. Just as a 14 year old girl cannot legally consent to sex with her older boyfriend.
I have no idea where you are getting your "facts", but it seems like you are pulling them out of thin air. However, juries are not the smartest or most educated people, unfortunately.

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[–] crossmr 10 years ago

They're excruciatingly easy to make up. All it takes is a young pretty girl to pull out a couple tears and whoever she has accused will be all over the news nationwide.

Rape used to be about strangers grabbing people on the street or breaking into their homes and violently forcing people to have sex. That kind of rape is very cut and dried. The victim is often very damaged, and there is little question about that kind of rape.

Now what we have instead is people who have sex with someone after having a beer and in the morning deciding that having sex with that person may not have been a good idea, so now it is rape. They like to hide behind the double standard of "she was drunk so she couldn't consent", and if he was just as drunk? How could he consent? Charge them both with rape, or admit your bias finally.

Let's not forget the incident where the girl was caught on camera get oral from a guy in the middle of the street. There was absolutely no rape, but she tried to claim in later because she was embarrassed luckily the court came to it senses in that case.

Even better was the fellow on the internet who was accused of rape. He ended up having to threaten to sue the woman for libel until she finally came forward and admitted she made it up to get attention. Before he dropped the lawsuit he was derided for suing her because it might make real victims afraid to come forward. He WAS the victim and he got blamed for trying to defend himself.

The double standard is disgusting. The default is to support the "Victim" and destroy the accused regardless of evidence. They aren't even prosecuted most times for false claims because the police are pressured not to file charges because of the damage it might do to "real victims"

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[–] amalzia19 10 years ago

Whoever lies about getting raped has psychological problems and there should be somekind of repercussion. But every guy automatically assumes, women will use such a website as a revenge tool and that's not fair. When Dan brought up Sloans past, it was her ex-boyfriend who used a website to hurt her.

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[–] philfeeley 10 years ago

You should read some rape statistics. Too few get reported, way too few go to trial, and a miniscule amount get convicted. Sure, no one wants to see an innocent go to jail, but too many victims suffer for the rest of their lives.

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[–] crossmr 10 years ago

I've read the stats. I suggest you actually read them instead of the emotional heart tuggings of a special interest group.

Here are some things they don't want you to actually internalize:

Anywhere from 10-50% of all rape accusations are false. 10% are so false the cops can completely confirm they're false and could (though they often decline, since boohoo feminist groups) charge the complainant for making a false accusation. Another 40% are unknown. The cops don't have enough information either way. They might be a he said/she said where there are no witnesses, no conclusive kit, no alibi for the guy, etc. Some of them may be real rapes, and some of them may be false accusations.

The other 50% have enough evidence that people have taken them to trial but only a small number actually result in them being found guilty. Some plead out to lesser things, and some are found innocent (add those to the false claims)

Another great piece of information is that a significant amount of rapes are actually motivated by the need or desire for sex. Rape groups love to tout the "Rape is about power" meme, because well, who knows why. Shirking personal responsibility I guess. But studies done by someone who is actually capable of critical thinking showed that (I need to try and find this study again, I was reading it last year) around 30% of people in jail for rape stated their primary motivation was the want of sex.

The reason so few go to trial is because in the absence of things like: physical witnesses, video, a confession, or significant physical evidence (like the victim being seriously injured in the rape), it's pretty hard to get a conviction or something like this. They only need reasonable doubt to be found not guilty.

"He raped me!"
"No I did not"
"I have no evidence but my word!"

Any reasonable person, who doesn't have an agenda, should have no real reason to take her word at 100% over the mans.

Which is also why it's so easy to make these things up, and why websites like that are so dangerous. The court of the public eviscerates men in those situations, and there is no real burden of proof on the woman besides a tear and a sob story.

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[–] wPatriot 10 years ago

The story was current as of 10 hours ago. Even the University hasn't lifted the Greek suspension. People always doubt rape survivors, which is why rapes are not reported.

People doubt everyone that doesn't have direct evidence. The big difference in the case of rape, is the sense of shame victims of the crime feel. That shame is what ultimately keeps them from reporting the crime if they feel there isn't enough evidence for a conviction.

I realize some women may lie, just like guilty men and women go free in our justice system all of the time. It doesn't make the criminals less innocent. However, just because something cannot be proven in court does not mean it isn't true.

So? What are you saying? What are, according to you, the consequences of that incredibly obvious observation? You can't just say that things that can't be proven might still be true and be done with it.

I'll do it for you:

"Just because certain things can't be proven in court don't mean they aren't true. However if someone makes an accusation and is unable to prove he or she is speaking the truth, behaving as if they are is morally wrong and makes you a despicable person."

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[–] VerbalGoddess 10 years ago

I actually have no idea what you are trying to say or what your argument was supposed to be. I actually meant to type the following:

It doesn't make the criminals less guilty.

(Guilty, instead of innocent.)
Regardless the point I was making with my response is that just because the editor of the Rolling Stone article did not go to the men for their side does not mean the story isn't true. When interviewing victim's families of accused murders, do they also go to the accused murderer for their side? If not, does that mean the story isn't ethical?

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[–] philfeeley 10 years ago

"Just because certain things can't be proven in court don't mean they aren't true. However if someone makes an accusation and is unable to prove he or she is speaking the truth, behaving as if they are is morally wrong and makes you a despicable person."

What absolute rubbish! Just because you can't prove it in court doesn't make it untrue.

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[–] metallicdragon 10 years ago

I don't know but I think it was the best argument this show has ever had. Usually it is Sorkin setting up a strawmen and proceeds to punch it over and over again with snappy dialogue and oh-so-brilliant sarcasm. Don and the rape victim had an honest discussion and had me being pulled in both directions. Ultimately, I think Don is right, you don't want this kind of thing litigated by the court of public opinion but the rape victim is right that the law( enforcement)s of the country have thoroughly failed victims of rape.

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[–] SEAL412 10 years ago

I'm curious as to what female viewers think. I think most men would be against it.

When the girl said something along the lines that Now men are afraid... it was a very good point. Don's point was that the website was bad because of the few cases where it was a lie...

In essence, once again it was a case to protect men. If this was about reporting racism, we wouldn't hesitate once. We wouldn't say "well about the few cases where someone accused someone who wasn't racist of being racist?"

People on the left would stand up for a site like this if it were for pointing out racists, but when it comes to women... its like "ehh *beep* em, their women, get over it".

Now I am a male of color in the US and I have to admit that sexism is universal. Rape is one of, if not the worst form of sexism, yet most men would take Don's side in case "that one situation occurs where it might be false".

We wouldn't say that if the same site was about pointing out racists, why can't we have a discussion that its really men who would whine about a site like this.

Any further thoughts?

Btw for the one rape case that is false their are probably hundreds, if not thousands that are real. I think a site like this, would make all men think twice, and we don't want to do that so we would immediately point to the one case where it's not true.

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[–] dudestein 10 years ago

Don's point was to protect innocent victims. Rape Victims are innocent victims, and people accused falsely of a crime like Rape are innocent victims. To freely accuse people with the anonymity of the internet is dangerous. People use the internet's anonymity to behave like total A-holes everywhere you go on here. I see language and behavior that none of these internet cowards would do face to face.

So I agree with Don. It will bring out the worse in people, and innocent people will get hurt.

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[–] Petals121 10 years ago

How is denying innocent victims a voice and a way to protect other women, protecting said victims?

I think the girl was right, guys are just simply scared. It's fear that makes them be against a site like this. But I think it's a good idea. Women need a voice because the justice system has completely failed them.

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[–] irc_addicts 10 years ago

can you be 100% sure that ONLY "innocent victims" would use that site. Can you be 100% sure that EVERYTHING that is said on that site is 100% true? How would you feel if someone went on that site and acccused YOU of rape when you did'nt do it ?

You are right it is fear that makes people against this site. Fear that it will be used against them if they so much as look at a woman who does'nt like them. It could aslo be used by woman as a tool against other woman. Pretend to be her and make false claims about being raped by another woman or man. The amount of damage that this website could casue is VASTLY more then the help it would bring.

Sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it

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[–] dudestein 10 years ago

Hopefully you are never falsely accused by a person of a evil and heinous crime by someone anonymously. Hopefully you then don't get treated like a pariah with no means of confronting your accuser and defend yourself.

If you think some people won't use the anonymity of the internet to destroy people they simply do not like, or are acting vindictively to punish someone for a slight, then you do not understand the internet. People act like obnoxious Boors all the time online, just spend a minute on twitter.

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[–] philfeeley 10 years ago

I'm with you all the way on this, and I did not take Don's side.

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[–] sluggr-2 10 years ago

I thought the best part was Don thanking her for listening to his side. It was consistent with the Will storyline, basically, how far was someone willing to go to uphold their principles. Compare this scenario also with the Duke rape case, where a zealous DA took it upon himself to villify some student athletes, and ended up losing his job in the process when it turned out he was wrong.

http://www.salon.com
2014/0406the_duke_lacrosse_rape_scandal_the_definitive_account/

As I see it, there are two types of vigilantism, one where it is out and out disrespect for the law, and the other a result of the system failing on a massive scale. My gut feeling is that the show left it up to us to decide where we were on the scale with the latter. And of course "reasonable doubt" is a very subjective measure.

I think my percentage of Chimp DNA is higher than others. Cleaver Greene

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[–] Mr_Beale 10 years ago

I think Don is right, you don't want this kind of thing litigated by the court of public opinion but the rape victim is right that the law( enforcement)s of the country have thoroughly failed victims of rape.

Yep. I think that's about right.

Give to Causes For Free: http://theanimalrescuesite.com

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[–] Petals121 10 years ago

Ultimately, I think Don is right, you don't want this kind of thing litigated by the court of public opinion

Sometimes that is the only way to get justice unfortunately. The justice system fails rape victims constantly so often the only way they can get any justice is through public opinion. Bill Cosby is a good example of that. These women can't get justice now because the statute of limitations is over so the only thing they can do is come forward and talk about what happened.

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[–] SEAL412 10 years ago

"I think Don is right, you don't want this kind of thing litigated by the court of public opinion but the rape victim is right that the law( enforcement)s of the country have thoroughly failed victims of rape."

You could make the case that even if it goes to trial and the accused is found not guilty, that it may already be litigated by the court of public opinion.

OJ, even though he was found not guilty, basically lived in shame and humiliation and when he did go to jail, people had zero sympathy for him.

My point is that even if the website was nonexistent, that people could still falsely accuse anyone they please. There are plenty of other social media outlets that it could occur.

We worry more about the handful of false cases over the thousands of cases where there is a crime.

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[–] brett-98 10 years ago

I agree with Don on this. Unfortunately people are vindictive and would use this as a tool to hurt people. A person that wasn't raped could use a site like this to slam a co-worker/classmate/former partner.

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[–] SEAL412 10 years ago

But once again, like I said, if someone wanted to go that far, couldn't they just as easily do it through other social media? Couldn't they spread rumors or lie on the internet anyway?

The girl made a point that now men are afraid and that's why people would fear her site. I think that for every false case there would be thousand real cases where culprits would be exposed. What if a rapist, who is never charged, gets away with it and does it again? A site like this could prevent someone like that from doing again, esp in the case of colleges where dude bros protect each other.

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[–] brett-98 10 years ago

Not really. If "Sally Smith" went on her Facebook/Twitter/Whatever and said "Joe Blow" raped her, "Joe Blow" can easily file slander charges against "Sally Smith". I doubt the word of mouth from Sally's post would get the traffic or attention this site would get.

A site that had anonymous writers and was really popular would be a dangerous tool.

Think of it this way. What if I created donthirethisperson.com and people could go on there anonymously and write valid or unvalid reasons as to why a person wasn't a good worker. Would it be fair to the people that were good workers and had false information written about them?

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[–] neerood 10 years ago

1) The site under debate was a proxy for all social media, so your point that someone could spread informtion (or misinformation) on other social media doesn't change anything.

2) Your 1000 to 1 ratio of true versus false accusations is probably not accurate

3) Unfortunately the girl was wrong that all men would fear being outed by the site. Some would, and some wouldn't. The spectre of easy false accusation through the web site could escalate tension and mistrust, but more importantly it wouldnt work because rape would still occur, with or without the site. A few rapes would be prevented and a few rapists would be deterred. But our society isn't founded on a principle of punishing a bunch of innocent people to make sure we get a few more bad ones too.

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[–] crossmr 10 years ago

That's not even close It's like for every 9 cases of something remotely being credible 1 is patently false.

If 10 rapes are reported

1 - one will be blatantly false
4 - will not have enough evidence to tell either way. No clear indication it's a lie, but also no evidence to support a trial
4 - will go to a trial and not end in a conviction
1 - (actually less than) will result in a conviction.

As many reports that end in conviction are patently false out of the gate.
But yeah, with stats like that, let's let people become vigilantes.

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[–] Suboxone 10 years ago

The girl said she did every drug they put infront of her. People get horny on some drugs. I've seen girls have sex with 3 guys in one night because they were high. If she really did do all those drugs she said she did then it's not out of the realm of possibility that she did ask those guys to have sex

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[–] SEAL412 10 years ago

You maybe right, but I'm talking in a larger sense. Girls get roofied all the time in colleges and it's barely an issue. If a site like this did exist (it could for all I know), it could expose a lot of scum bags who do stuff like that all the time and get away with it.

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[–] neerood 10 years ago

Well, it could.... But it definitely WOULD take down some innocent people as well. And that's the point.

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[–] fede_4488 10 years ago

wow, victim-blaming much?

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[–] amalzia19 10 years ago

"Asking" for sex while being on different drugs and then getting it because, face it no guy would say no, is still rape. You know the only reason she "wants" it, is because she is it not able to think rational. How can you just stand and watch how a girl has sex with 3 guys, knowing she is on drugs and talk about it like it's a normal thing. Disgusting.

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[–] sluggr-2 10 years ago

There is of course an option of not being drunk or full of drugs, but then I guess that would take away the concept of someone actually being responsible for their own actions.

I think my percentage of Chimp DNA is higher than others. Cleaver Greene

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[–] rainman_1985 10 years ago

The preference of the law is always to avoid punishing the innocent over punishing the guilty. "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer".

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[–] dudestein 10 years ago

And reason for that....for those who wonder..... is when You Punish an Innocent Man you are also rewarding a guilty one with that case being closed and found to be solved.

The solace being that the guilty person is always looking over their shoulder if the case is still open. When a conviction of an innocent is had, the Police close the case.

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[–] susie_not_sad 10 years ago

I can't be unbiased. My friend's daughter was raped in high school and nothing was done. Even the daughter's "good" friends turned against her for causing trouble for the rapist.
If there had been this kind of website back then I would have posted on it.

Did anyone think that what Sloan was saying about the ACN website about reporting on celeberties was very close to be what Don was saying about the rape site?

you re gonna need a bigger boat.

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[–] SEAL412 10 years ago

But we're not talking about the law. It would be a website where people would expose people who raped them. If it were false, a person could sue for slander, but like susie alluded, it's actually shameful how rape cases are either ignored or swept under the rug.

I think its horrifying that this happens all the time and most people get away with it.

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[–] neerood 10 years ago

Except it's never as simple as your fourth hand story would have us believe.

Those people you speak of aren't pro-rape. They probably believe - correctly or incorrectly - that the accused is innocent, and in their minds they are defending a wrongly accused person, not a rapist.

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[–] susie_not_sad 10 years ago

I wish it was a story and not something this poor young lady has to live with.

you re gonna need a bigger boat.

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[–] 10 years ago

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