MovieChat Forums > The Man in the High Castle (2015) Discussion > John Smith would have never ascended to ...

John Smith would have never ascended to such a high rank


While it's plausible that a defeated US Military member could be swayed to join the ranks of the occupying victors because the benefits are clear for both sides, I find it highly unrealistic that Nazi high command would ever let that person ascend beyond a fairly low ranking post, for a number of reasons:

- He's clearly shown that his loyalties can change & could therefore never be fully trusted.

- He was of an adult age when he drank the Nazi kool-aid, and therefore could never be considered fully indoctrinated or intellectually galvanized to the cause, as evidenced in the case of Thomas, who was brainwashed from such a young age that he turned himself in, whereas John couldn't.

More likely, Nazi high command would have 'fire-walled' any ascension beyond a certain level as a matter of a safeguard policy, because they'd have considered the aforementioned points. And, history has shown the Nazis were experts in picking the "right" people for the "right" jobs.

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Er, what loyalties has he changed? He has always been loyal to Hitler and the Reich. As was Himmler until the very end when he decided to attempt to negotiate with Eisenhower.

Yeah, to your second point. Is that why Goring was held in such high regard after the Battle of Britain? Oh wait, he wasn't.

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On the first point, John Smith was fighting for the allies before the bomb was dropped on DC. Loyalty changed from U.S. to Nazi. Clear as day.

On the second, while yes, Göring was an adult by the time he joined the NSDAP.... well, not so much "joined" as he was one of it's founders at Hitler's side from the very beginning. And, as a founder, combined with the fact that he was a defeated combat pilot in WWI and needed to restore his national pride; of course he'd be fully invested in Nazi ideology. The fact that he fell out of Hitlers favor is irrelevant to my point. Unlike, John Smith who had to embrace it as a matter of defeat and survival. Comparing Smith with Göring is simply an exercise in false equivalency.

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But he doesn't strike me as an opportunistic traitor or even someone who gladly works whatever regime is in power. He's a true believer who probably embraced Nazism enthusiastically as soon as he was exposed to it.

Add to this sincere conversion his serious combat and leadership skills. He could do a lot more for them than the typical pre-war Nazi sympathizer. Drug enhanced interrogation could make sure his loyalty was genuine.

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[deleted]

1. This is 15 years after WWII. For a highly motivated person that's already in a leadership role, that's plenty of time to make a name for themselves.

2. The Nazis we know were very careful in who they allowed to lead, but... we don't know post WWII Nazis. In totalitarian regimes, paranoia is incredibly common. Look at Stalin, at North Korea. We know, from the story, what happened to Goering. It only makes sense that those in power might place their trust in a zealous recent convert outsider who wields some power, but, is geographically distant and thus not a direct threat.

3. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/vichy-leader-executed-for-treason

By 1942, Laval had won the trust of Nazi leader Adolf Hitler, and the elderly Pétain became merely a figurehead in the Vichy regime.


Pétain's WWI history is more closely aligned with Smith than Laval's anti-communism, but if Hitler could trust Laval in '42, he could certainly trust Smith 15 years after the war, especially considering America's far greater strategic importance.

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Yes, it would have been very difficult to administer the Nazi regime in America using only native-born Germans in all the positions of significant power. Moreover, such an arrangement would have fostered the alienation of the local populace, making governing more difficult. Americans coming to maturity after the end of the war would still have been too young to run the country in 1962, so utilizing men of Smith's generation would have been essential. And some guys are just inclined to follow orders in any environment, as long as they themselves and their families are secure.

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Remember that Hitler wasn't German and so having an American rise high in the Third Reich is believable if he passes the Aryan purity tests.

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Smith's Nazi armband had red and white stripes, as opposed to the all-red band. Did this signify he was born a non-German? If such people had a different armband, it might signify that they had a lower status than Germans. But John Smith is apparently an exceptional Nazi, so he had high status.

Edited to add: It is not unprecedented for dictators to place their trust in foreigners. The early Roman emperors had German bodyguards--see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_German_Bodyguard though of course this isn't exactly analogous to Smith's position.

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I think that striped band depicted his higher rank, instead of lower birth.

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Think its more to show he belongs to the US part of the Reich.

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I think the arm band with red stripes is because he is part of the American-SS. German born SS (thus part of the German-SS regiments) working in the States (e.g. look at the SS working in the Nazi embassy in the Pacific States and have German accents) wear the all red armband in this reality.

In our reality foreign (non german) SS regiments had designations on their lapels and sleeve cuffbands. However this was during WWII when the SS were increasingly seldom seen wearing the black uniform and instead opted for the SS grey service uniforms, therefore slightly different rules as SS didn't wear armbands with the grey service uniform.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_and_insignia_of_the_Schutzstaffel

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_and_insignia_of_the_Schutzstaffel


My favorite: Rottenführer. Man, that guy is a rotten leader.

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I think that's probably a fair point. But i don't know if he's such an important person as you think. I think they would certainly not allow non Germans to rise beyond a certain point, but i think its plausible he's not too high yet.

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Having read the above thoughtful replies, I have reconsidered my initial assertion and can now find plausibility in the situation.

A few points that weighed heavy in my thinking:

-It's made very clear that John's primary drive to every waking moment is his family, and after seeing the DC detonation from the cabin where his wife and new baby looked on, it's very likely that in that moment he made the decision to switch allegiances as a matter of his family's survival and after making that decision would be fully committed.

-In Season 1, he had a conversation with Rudolph Wegener in which they lamented about the "things" they had to do during and after the war in order to further the Reich's vision. It was very much implied that Smith partook in the atrocities, and in doing so cemented his status with high command. His role in mass murder was also corroborated by Resistance, specifically Dixon when coercing Jules to cooperate.

-As dvd123 pointed out, 15 yrs is a decent amount of time to show commitment to the cause, and as others pointed out, having an American very visibly furthering the Nazi agenda would aid in winning the hearts and minds of the population.

-I'm sure in the wake of the Nazi victory and for some time after, Smith was under heavy surveillance and scrutinized, while him being very intelligent and Machiavellian, he would have known this, and strategically committed said atrocities, among other things, in order to gradually have his loyalty less questioned, until it wasn't.

To be sure, he's an evil self serving Nazi S.O.B., but I think the writers and Sewell himself did a great job in creating a semblance of empathy for him. He seems less about the Nazi ideology and more about the safety and success of his family (which we can all relate to). With the softening and wisdom of age, recent experiences with vulnerability (Thomas's condition), witnessing acts of mercy (through Juliana), resulting in ideological contradiction and ambiguity, all lead his conscious weighing heavy enough to intervene to prevent a nuclear holocaust.

Or......

He knew his and his family's future would be in peril under a Heusmann regime as his opposition to Heydrich was surely well known. So, consistent with the pattern of his behavior, he preemptively struck.

Thoughts?

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I'm sure in the wake of the Nazi victory and for some time after, Smith was under heavy surveillance and scrutinized, while him being very intelligent and Machiavellian, he would have known this, and strategically committed said atrocities, among other things, in order to gradually have his loyalty less questioned, until it wasn't.


As race relations have improved, we're seeing less of this, but early African American policemen were notorious in the brutal manner in which they interacted with minorities- because they knew they were under a great deal of scrutiny and wanted to prove themselves as loyal.

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It seems likely that he was a Nazi, or Nazi sympathetic when he was in the US military. He fought in the Pacific, so his loyalties wouldnt have been a problem there.

The reality is that the Nazis would have to use former American military men in their regime. Even the rump US controlled by the Nazis is bigger and more populous than Germany itself. They could never control it on their own. Rather theyd have to do what the British and French did in their colonial empires and delegate most of the running of things to locals.

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At the start of the final episode of season 2, Smith (in 1945) tells his wife something about working at the Pentagon. If he was there, he may have been in intelligence or some other important section. That could springboard him into a higher position with the Nazis. He may have been anti-semitic before the war even started so adopting Nazi ideals may not have been too big of a jump for him.

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You also have to remember there where German Americans that went back to Germany at the start of the war to fight for the motherland. They made the point of showing this in "Band of Brothers."
So if John Smith was a first generation American born to German Parents, then he would have easily been able to assimilate to the Reich.

You have to remember how entrenched German culture is in the USA. I have family in the middle of Missouri that still speak some German, my ancestors came here in the early 1800's. Hell we call Pennsylvanian Dutch which is short for Deutschland. So with so many people in this country with a connection to Germany, it would be very easily to convert to the new way of the land. Plus remember in any type of government you have the true believers and the ones just trying to get by. Which is what John Smith showed at the end that he was not a true believer but just a man trying to protect his Family.

Can't wait to see what happens when he finds out what Thomas has done. Season 3 can't come quick enough.

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That was a lot more true during WWI than WWII. Yes, there were pockets of German culture at the time. Still are/were as of recently. In Texas where I live there are areas just a few hours from Houston where the radio stations were in German (or Czech) until a couple of decades ago. But that was a rare thing. What kept America out of the war in the 1930s-40s was not pro-German sentiment, but isolationism.

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I think part of what makes it difficult to believe is the fact that you're viewing it through the lens of history that actually occurred rather than the altered timeline that the series takes place in. It's jarring to see an American as a top-ranking Nazi, especially one that was an intelligence officer in the US Military prior to defeat. But this is an America in which Roosevelt was assassinated in 1933. We don't really know how the Great Depression panned out, nor do we know America's role in WWII. In actual history, Hitler and the Nazis weren't exactly seen as monsters until after they became a wartime enemies. He didn't invent anti-semitism, or eugenics programs, we had that sort of stuff right here in America. He was a charismatic leader who was actually kind of admired for turning his country around. Hitler and Nazi are synonymous with "evil" now, but it's not insane to think that if things had gone a little differently that a number of Americans could end up just like the Smiths.

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