MovieChat Forums > The Dark Tower (2017) Discussion > Will the people of Gilead be black?

Will the people of Gilead be black?

posted 9 years ago by tinasparklesau
73 replies | jump to latest

My issue with a black Roland has somewhat abated, and there's a lot of good and inventive ideas floating around as to how this need not change the dynamics of the ka-tet; in particular book 2. I understand that there are some darker skinned people in mid-world (Garlan for example), but the presence of black people otherwise isn't that common. King seems to deliberately describe the different skin colour of the non white folk when they pop up like it is an emphasis that they are uncommon (like Hax).

Unless Roland and his family's skin colour are 'uncommon' in Gilead, are we now looking at a black Steven, Gabrielle AND Cort, Cuthbert, Alain, etc? I don't think Roland having the Horn on this loop can justify changing the skin colour of 10,000 odd people. I can only imagine, that Roland and his family are not the norm in Gilead regarding their skin colour otherwise it's really stretching the limits of suspension of disbelief imo.

[–] Whooda_Thunkit 8 years ago

There could be black people in Gilead and this time around one of Arthur Eld's line produced a son with a black woman. To be as dark as Idris Elba, it should be Roland's mother or a generation back. I don't have to stretch my brain at all to see Gabrielle Deschain as black. There hasn't really been enough said about her to form a solid image of her and race issues never came into the picture.

I don't remember Sai King ever discussing the racial composition of Gilead. If there aren't black people in Gilead, a black person could come through one of the many doors and thinnys. You had Father Callahan just walking between the universes and winding up in Midworld after he killed himself, just like Jake wound up there after being killed. Arthur Eld's guns are another example of something popping out of another universe into Allworld and you had the Rods popping up in the Keystone world.

I could easily see a black woman from one of these alternate layers of the Tower wandering around the Baronies rather confused, most likely, and one of Roland's near ancestors finding her.

[–] tinasparklesau 8 years ago

*Bump*

Bumping this thread because of W&G being greenlit. Roland has the horn this time around, but this is Roland's 'reincarnation' beginning from well... i'm not actually sure? From when Cuthbert had it and Roland failed to retrieve it? Or from The Gunslinger where his quest in the books begin? Not 100% sure now. But the horn won't throw Roland all the way back to his heritage, whether it be Arthur Eld or even just Steven and Gabrielle. The horn also won't change an entire Kingdom to be a different race - the source material mentions that the 'darker skinned' folk are of Garlan, not Gilead. This is Rolands 'do-over', not all of Gilead and the surrounds...

So what's the speculation on the yet to be seen casting of W&G now? It's pretty much a given that Gilead for at least the most part is Caucasian right? If Elba's Roland begins his tale of W&G, which i assume he will as he has been confirmed for W&G, i can't imagine it will flashback to a white Roland. Soooo will W&G have a mostly black cast to fit with Roland being black (as he's a direct descendant of Arthur Eld), or will it incorporate a storyline as to why Roland is black (one of his parents are?) and hardly anyone else is? I'm really curious as to whether Gilead will be black now or if there will be artistic licence that has nothing to do with the horn that explains why Roland is black whereas most of Gilead isn't.

I'm happy to accept Roland being black when he isn't in the books, but i wonder if they may have boxed themselves into a corner with W&G now? A 2-5 minute explanation of how say a black Gabrielle came to be with Steven and produced Roland is an option (though seems a bit cheap imo), but is a black Alain, Jamie, Cuthbert, Cort, etc a better idea? But what of the others? The big coffin hunters for example? Once Roland and (possibly his black) ka-tet go to the Mejis, won't they stand out immediately because of their skin colour alone? They were trying to keep a low profile - not going to happen if they stand out because they are black and no one else is. But that would mean the coffin hunters (amongst others) are black too to avoid this. Or if only Roland is black, won't that blow their cover? Argh?! This isn't a racist debate, perhaps it's a race debate simply because whole kingdoms and baronies will need a race change or big deviations from the source material. The race change now seems FAR more prominant in W&G than the whole Detta angle now! King made a point to differentiate people by their skin colour in the books, so i find it hard to buy that everyone's skin colour was left 'vague'.

Either way - Someone is going to have to make up a storyline that never existed regarding Gilead and it's rulers and constituents, or make up a storyline why Roland is black. Or they can opt to not acknowledge what they choose to do at all and potentially alienate the majority of viewers via sheer confusion alone.

[–] joannatn 8 years ago

Tina, you know I love you right? But I'm going to be honest, honey. I seriously believe you are totally overthinking everything regarding Roland's skin color. Growing up I was the only Asian in my school, but there was never a moment when I had to stand up in class and explain to everyone how an Asian came to be there. In our world there are white people. There are black people. There are people with skin colors in between. In this country there are many more white people than anything else, but it doesn't make it odd when people of other skin colors pop up. Can it not be like that in Gilead as well? Just because Stephen King never described black people in Gilead, that hardly means there were none. Roland's black this time around. Okay. Like it or hate it, it simply is. But I wouldn't ever expect them to detract from the story to give me a demographical reason for a black man's existence when the assumption can simply be that there are white people. There are black people. There are people with skin colors in between.

[–] tinasparklesau 8 years ago

I'm not overthinking Roland's race. I'm considering future race changes of major players in W&G that will need to be made to accommodate Roland's race change. Mid-world, in-world, end-world is not OUR world, Gilead is a type of monarchy from which Steven and Roland are direct descendants (with Steven as current ruler), and there is very little to indicate that it is multicultural, there is more to indicate that it isn't due to King's descriptions of the non caucasian folk when they pop up. King seems to make a point to include their skin colour if they aren't white, so i believe it's a fair assumption that the majority of Gilead is white. Especially in the upper echelons of governing capacities.

I accepted quite some time ago that Roland would be black, my initial kneejerk reaction being the deviation of the source material and that Idris looks nothing like i had always pictured Roland as looking. The only thing they seemed to get right was tall and stoic (the acting is yet to be seen, though i wonder what happened to his dry twist with all that building jumping in the leaked trailer). Roland simply being black alone isn't my issue here, so please don't put the racist slant on me (I am mixed race myself), the issue is that his race is the precursor to the *casting* of W&G. TDT movie could very well be unharmed by changing the lead characters race, i'm still on board anyway (and 'stubborn' is a word i'm frequently described as). But W&G? I see it as problematic. This isn't just Roland's race changing, it's potentially a LOT of Gilead including the main players that have already been physically described to us. Steven, Gabrielle, Cort, Alain, Cuthbert, Jamie, the coffin hunters, etc. Many if not most readers already have the characters physicality formed in their mind's eye (the illustrations help strengthen this too btw), there's still many many DT fans that are still jumping up and down about Roland being black, how is the reaction going to be when our W&G characters also drastically change from the descriptions we were given?

The most accepted reason that Roland is black is because it is a new cycle and reincarnation for him and he has the horn of eld so anything is fair game now. Fair enough. But how does this explain changing things in W&G and Gilead? It doesn't. It's not a new cycle of Gilead and it's inhabitants, only Roland himself. Sure, they can make Gilead more multicultural than Australia if they want to but they have no reason as to why they would deviate from the source material like they do in TDT.

[–] jerryhammond38 8 years ago

My guess is that one or both of his parents will change race, and that will be that. I am not sure there will be alot of explanation for it either.

If we are going to have a dark skinned Roland then we might as well go with a multi-cultural Gilead.

[–] tinasparklesau 8 years ago

Agreed, i think one parent however (probably Gabrielle). I also think that an explanation will be left out as 1. It will acknowledge the changes in source material, which they seem to be wanting to avoid and would be an unnecessary detour and 2. It could lead to too much speculation as a story arc that has nothing to do with the source.

Gilead will need to be more diverse racially now which is fine. I just hope we don't have major players changing race also simply to 'fit in' with Roland. I think there's been enough changes already to alienate TDT junkies.

[–] sugrnspyce4 8 years ago

Agreed, i think one parent however (probably Gabrielle). I also think that an explanation will be left out as 1. It will acknowledge the changes in source material, which they seem to be wanting to avoid and would be an unnecessary detour and 2. It could lead to too much speculation as a story arc that has nothing to do with the source.

Gilead will need to be more diverse racially now which is fine. I just hope we don't have major players changing race also simply to 'fit in' with Roland. I think there's been enough changes already to alienate TDT junkies.

Hi tinasparklesau! 

I was actually thinking the same thing as jerryhammond38. Most likely, the only people that have to be changed to accommodate Roland's race are his parents - though if they only change one parent, I always suspected it would be Steven Deschain (I keep picturing Keith David for that role now lol). That being said, I do agree with joannatn in that there may be a bit of overthinking involved here. (Also, I don’t think she was trying to put a racist slant on what you were saying. To me, she was simply was pointing out why explanations about Roland and his family being black wouldn’t be as necessary as you might think, especially if the filmmakers make Gilead as diverse as our world.) I could easily see them making Gilead more diverse than it’s implied to be in the books, but Roland and his family being black doesn’t necessarily mean that all of Gilead must be black to “match.” If the filmmakers do make Gilead more diverse, then my guess is that the ruling order of gunslingers would also be more diverse. In that case, the Deschains’ skin color wouldn’t be a big deal at all.

[–] tinasparklesau 8 years ago

Hey sugr!  Haven't had the pleasure to politely agree to disagree with you for some time . I swear i'm this close to offering you a wager as to which parent will be black lol, winner gets an article of their choosing from perceive's ka-tet clothing line haha.

Is it possible to overthink anything DT related, well without a self induced headache? Maybe be overzealous.... if so ✋ guilty as charged.

Keith David, interesting. He certainly has the same hulking build as Idris and not bad acting chops either. He can bring a lot to the table with smaller roles too, i still have nightmares of him in Requiem For A Dream. Good choice!

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

Here is a challenge for you: go through all of the books while envisioning Idris Elba as Roland of Gilead.

---
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

[–] sugrnspyce4 8 years ago

Ha - well if we did make a wager and both of Roland's parents end up being black, perceive would benefit twice over.  And yeah, there are about as many possible DT-related rabbit holes to fall into as there are levels of the Tower, so I've been guilty of that a time or two myself lol.

As for Keith David, his acting chops and charismatic voice (and a memory of him in The Quick and the Dead) make me think he'd be a good Steven Deschain. :) Speaking of which, though they most likely haven't even started development of the W&G TV show, I wonder if they have any actors in particular in mind yet.

[–] edc9781 8 years ago

dude, i think the people of gilead will be humans.

[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

.

---
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

[–] tinasparklesau 8 years ago

I'm not referring to a biological vs sociologist argument. As my usage of the word is in relation to phenotype traits, race is still an accurate word (like it or not) to use in lieu of ethnicity, nationality, culture or heritage. But i'm happy to discuss the nuances regarding the argument of the misuse of the word in an anthropological or physiological based discussion. But thanks for your insightful post :)

[–] edc9781 8 years ago

C'mon, we both know it is not about terminology; race, ethnicity or whatsoever is not the point.

It is only a question of, can one accept that Gilead is changed from a Kingdom full of white people, as it was probably imagined by King when he started to write the The Dark Tower in the early 1980s, to a Kingdom where a Black dude can be of noble decent and where black's, white's, yellow's, and anything in between live together without categorising themselves in terms of skin color.

If they would have made a movie back in the 1980s Roland would be white and there would probably not be a single black guy in the whole movie. However, while some people want to turn back the hands of time, things have luckily changed for a better since Reagan. So why not give the Dark Tower a bit of a makeover, making Gilead a multiracial place ? This would also solve your problem with the fact that Roland et al. would have an 'uncommon' skin color. Because there would be the magic of marriage between people of different skin color and there would be no reason why there could not be nobles of different racial background. However, if you "'Member Reagan" such a concept might be not yours.

[–] joannatn 8 years ago

Hi, Ed! You were able to say exactly what I was trying to a bit more concisely than I was, so thank you. I don't see why Gilead can't be a regular old United Colors of Bennington ad.

And, Tina, I in no way intended to imply you were being racist. I know you're not. I think we've even discussed the fact we're both mixed race. I just really don't see why mixing up the races for this movie has to be a thing.

[–] tinasparklesau 8 years ago

I appreciate a proper reply! I understand the for and against, and it boils down to acceptance, yes. Racial diversity in Gilead is something i'm happy to accept, and it's obviously a necessity to accommodate Roland's skin colour, and other events that unfold. 13 episodes for W&G is great news, it won't have to be crammed into a 2hr movie, so W&G has a good shot of being an actual accurate adaptation of the book. The 'last time around' and the horn is what puzzles me though in regards to a true adaptation of something that is a prequel. I don't expect a 1:1 adaptation, but i have my hopes pegged on W&G being pretty darn close to the novel (unlike TDT mash-up). But how far back exactly is Roland thrown? From birth? From when he retrieved the horn? Until i see how the casting unfolds, i'll remain positive but skeptical. I don't think there's a need to drastically change the race of *everyone*, primarily the key players. Personal preference, but i'd like to see these characters at least somewhat resemble how they were described in the book.

[–] joannatn 8 years ago

Well, the series ended with Roland thrown back to the point where the first novel begins, just with the horn on his hip. And if I recall correctly (I might not!) he abandoned the horn during the battle of Jericho Hill? So everything in W&G (Roland's race notwithstanding) should potentially be able to cross over as a 1:1. I mean, it all takes place well before Jericho Hill so that scenario shouldn't be affected. Of course, Hollywood being what it is, a 1:1 is entirely unlikely even under the best circumstances.

As far as the rest of the casting goes, I can't imagine they'll be making many more changes regarding race. Sure, the potential is there, but I'm going to stick by my belief that Idris gave them something special in his audition which is what landed him the role (I KNOW the jury is still out on that belief; I'll don the noose when and if I am convicted).

[–] edc9781 8 years ago

I am with you, if Roland is the only black dude then it is ridiculous and breaks, if they don't come up with some very sophisticated reason, the consistency. So let's see what we will get in the end and how everything is integrated into the story. I also agree there is no reason to change the race of everyone or to make some Captain Planet like team to have some force diversity in the cast. I think they should cast the most appropriate and best actors they can get and if skin color is not a necessary prerequisite for the role itself I don't mind who to cast as long as they are decent actors. As for Roland, while the racial tension between him and odetta is nicely integrated into the original story, it is not so essential for his quest to the dark tower and might not harm the movie adaption if it is removed. But again it breaks down, on the one hand, to what degree you can accept changes to the source material and on the other extreme after how much changes it remains still "The Dark Tower".
For the choice of Idris Elba as Roland irrespective of his race I think he is kinda a bit to massive and well build like he had a lot of time to hit the gym during his long journey to the dark tower. I always imagined Roland more worn after all this time travelling. But anyway, I think he is a very good actor so things might turn out well after all.

[–] tinasparklesau 8 years ago

But again it breaks down, on the one hand, to what degree you can accept changes to the source material and on the other extreme after how much changes it remains still "The Dark Tower".

Precisely. Never a truer word spoken. This is the crux of TDT argument imo, my hope is that it doesn't overflow into W&G.

[–] MadSimian 8 years ago

Well, King himself has already written himself an out through the mythos he's built up over the years: twinning. Put simply, the Elba iteration of Roland is a parallel reality version of him and the literary version "hijacked" the body. In fact, the only difference between the reality we know(literary) and the Elba iteration could be that the entire Deschain line is black instead of white especially if any version of Mid-World is a place where the idea of judging people merely by the color of their skin is a completely alien concept.

Hell, other iterations of Roland could have been purple skinned or female for all we know considering we've only been privy to one out of who knows how many other loops.

Living is easy with eyes closed
Misunderstanding all you see

[–] jerryhammond38 8 years ago

The Roland from the last page of the DT had to be black. We just didn't know it. We join his reset when he is chasing the man in black, but his entire history would already have to been changed before then.