MovieChat Forums > Taken 2 (2012) Discussion > Disappointingly xenophobic

Disappointingly xenophobic

posted 12 years ago by lunamuna
84 replies | jump to latest

Ok I'll be honest, I couldn't watch the whole thing. I got bored and irritated and left the room. I enjoyed the first one in a sort of mindless something entertaining to watch kind of way, but Taken 2 was a big let down. The thing that just got to me was the depictions of Turkey and Muslims, which was silly and covertly (or maybe overtly?) racist.. I don't even remember the kidnappers being Muslim in the first film, but now it's showing them at their Muslimy funeral with the prayers being said and they're declaring revenge etc. Like AS IF these kidnapping brothel running rapists would give a damn about praying and religion. Ok I know that there are a lot of people who act holy and then are secretly doing *beep* and will go along with traditions at funerals and stuff, so that's not unrealistic... but in this film, I felt like it was just building up the Scary Muslim atmosphere. Like these guys are not just ANY bad guys, they're freakin Muslim Bad Guys! Then they go to Turkey and you hear the call to prayer and it's like some kind of ominous warning of what's to come. I dunno if any of you guys have heard the call to prayer in a Muslim country but let me tell you, it's beautiful. I bet even the most ignorant Islamophobes would be a little bit moved by it. It's not scary.

And THEN, omg, what was with all the face-covering Turkish women? Seriously.. in Turkey? Anyone been to Turkey? Anyone? And when Liam Neeson's ex-wife is trying to escape down that ally way and she looks through the bars and sees the covered Turkish women and she's like 'help me!' And they're staring back at her with an empty look in their eyes.. What was that trying to imply? Muslim women who cover won't help you if your a white American woman being chased by bad guys?

Please tell me, am I being crazy? Am I too sensitive? Like sometimes I just feel like Hollywood presumes their whole audience is white, American and Western. Believe it or not, people watch your films all over the world. And we just get so tired of seeing other cultures portrayed stupidly. If there were other countries making films out there that could compete with American films when it comes to funding, acting and production (NOT BOLLYWOOD) then maybe it would be ok. But we're just drowning in a sea of Hollywood.

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] Sturmknecht 12 years ago

Made me lol.

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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - Who watches the watchmen?

[–] rphilip1 12 years ago

"Please tell me, am I being crazy? Am I too sensitive?"

Yes.

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] Brokenail22 12 years ago

What does PC stand for ?

And Islam is a great religion.

[–] haruuj 12 years ago

Islam is not a race you *beep* morons.

[–] lunamuna 12 years ago

@haruuj, who said it was a race? You may have noticed I used the word xenophobic in my post title, which means a fear of things that are foreign.

@quetzalcoatl2012, When did I say the bad guys were Turkish? if you had bothered to read my post then you would realise I never said that and I directly addressed the fact that they were Albanian. And if you couldn't muster the patience to read my short post then I wonder how you must ever manage to complete a book or an article, which would explain why you come across as ignorant.

[–] kmmd511 12 years ago

And you come across as a whining cry baby. I, in fact, have been to Turkey and some women do cover up from head to toe and they are NOT very friendly or warm.

[–] jeffandsarah-1 12 years ago

You did.
Third line.
Read your own post next time.

[–] lunamuna 12 years ago

I never said Islam was a race. I said the movie was racist in its portrail of Turkish people and Muslims. I think you are really being pedantic here. I know people these days love saying 'Islam is not a race' as if that makes it okay to be bigoted towards them. Islam may not be a race, but the roots of islamophobia lie within racism. The fear of the other. The fear of someone who looks different, acts different, worships differently than you. If you REALLY want to get pedantic then we can say that there is actually, scientifically no such thing as race. Race is a totally outdated concept considering what we now understand about human genetics and ancestry. It is impossible to draw a line between people of different ethnicities and say 'you are this race and you are that race'. We are all mixed race so to speak. Does that mean that racism, as we understand it, does not exist? Of course not. Racism is well and truly alive today. Using Islam-bashing as a shield against accusations of racism is a fallacy. We all know what you (not you specifically, I mean racist people generally) are getting at. They are afraid of something they don't understand. All things considered, the most correct term for this is 'xenophobia' which is why I used it in the title.

My politics blog: http://politicasomnia.blogspot.co.uk/

[–] Sturmknecht 12 years ago

Good post and good reply to the ignorant proles above.

I see it pretty much the same way you do: the reinforcement of the token evil guys as Muslims felt very superficial to me too, and in my eyes served purely the goal of spoon-feeding the bigoted prejudices of the a big part of the general western audience.

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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - Who watches the watchmen?

[–] Harry_Bottom 12 years ago

I wished it was more racist. It was too PC for me.

[–] Augustus_Octavian 10 years ago

I agree. Hoping forward to a outrageously racist film from Hollywood just to finally have a IMBD board where these moaners are actually right!

[–] jedimcarr 12 years ago

Actually, they are Eastern Orthodox. You could tell by the symbolism, especially since they are Albania where over 95% of the population is Eastern Orthodox.

[–] lunamuna 12 years ago

If they were Eastern Orthodox then why were they praying like Muslims? Why did they have the crescent moon and star tattoo? And I looked it up on wikipedia, Albania is predominantly Muslim with a large Christian minority

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] lunamuna 12 years ago

How do you know? Do you actually know any Muslims? Have you ever even met a Muslim? And I don't mean the guy who runs your local shop/takeaway. Have you ever had a Muslim work colleague, acquaintance, friend? I doubt it.

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] lunamuna 12 years ago

How do you know I haven't read it? Have you been watching me my whole life? What a ridiculous presumption to make. I have read it in fact, and in truth it's a mixed bag with some morally questionable chapters and some very morally sound chapters as well. The same way the Bible is. In fact, the most horrific stuff is in the Bible, which if you have read, I'm sure you will agree. So, do you consider every Christian who believes what the Bible says to be a terrible person too? Because I don't know what country you live in but if its the States then there sure is of a lot of Christians there. If you're in Europe then I'm sure you have at least one friend who considers themselves Christian. Do you hate them too?

I just find it incredibly ignorant the way it's the new fashion in the West to consider Muslims to be a separate entity from the human race incapable of rational thought simply because they are Muslim. There's as many different kinds of Muslims as there are fish in the sea. And truth be told, the social history of Christianity (the Crusades, the Nazis, the British Empire etc.) and Atheism (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc.) has proved to be unrivalled in brutality.

My personal philosophy is to take every individual as they are and judge them by their own words and actions, not those of their supposed religion, group, culture, ethnicity etc. I think to do otherwise is irrational and betrays a lack of intellect. Hating one group on the basis of something intangible like religion is what allows things like the holocaust to happen. Breaking down people into mere categories dehumanises them and this is the first step towards something very very bad.

[–] applegreeen 11 years ago

So Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot killed in the name of atheism, right?

[–] vestdennis 11 years ago

Once again we have someone who brings up the history of Christianity hundreds of years ago & uses that to bash Christians today. Yes, the Crusades were bloody & violent but there was violence & warring done on both sides (Muslim & Christian).

But if you compare the modern history of Islam we see a renewal of violence & attacks on the Western world. Not by all, but enough that over two dozen embassies had to be closed down recently. Christians, who were once welcomed in Iraq, Egypt & Turkey are now having their churches burned down, the women attacked & they are fleeing for their lives.

[–] Strazdamonas 9 years ago

Crusades were a direct response to Muslims conquering by force over 2/3 of Christian lands spanning from middle east to as far as middle europe. If it wasnt for Crusades europe would be all Muslim now.

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Applied Science? All science is applied. Eventually.

[–] dabidder34 12 years ago

Albanians aren't christians, most of them are muslims. And their depiction is pretty much accurate in both films.

I like Armageddon. A lot.

[–] NikolaAvramov 12 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania
5% Orthodox Christians.

Knowledge. Use it.

[–] Synetech 12 years ago

…or this page, with a link to the (at this time) 2011 Albanian census:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania

[–] zanbuddha 11 years ago

Lunamuna

What a dumb ass post. Let me be clear on few things.

1. Albanians have a HUGE muslim population and many of them are involved in human trafficking and prostitution. That is a FACT.

2. Some muslims interpret their religion to enslave and treat non muslim women as dogs. If you are in the UK you will have heard of muslim grooming gangs who rape under age women, especially those that were caught in Rochdale and Oxford.

3. Islam is NOT a race. Neither is depicting muslims (burkahs etc) in Turkey racist. It may be factually, slightly off the mark (I don't know I haven't been) but it's not racist you plum.

The movie I think does a great job in highlighting the problem that exists in Europe. This kind of stuff does go on and Albanians are KNOWN for it. Google it and do a bit of research before posting such uneducated crap.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] blednd88 11 years ago

*beep* you

[–] jacksflicks 11 years ago

Well, it's an old thread, but I can't let that whopper go by. Albanians are majority MUSLIM, Christians making up about 17%. Couldn't you just look it up before posting such stupidity and making a fool of yourself and misleading others?

[–] cassmi87 10 years ago

They said "Salaam alaikum". That's hardly Eastern Orthodox...

[–] cyanide-af 12 years ago

You are totally right! This istanbul is unknown to me and yet I have been living here and precisely in the areas film takes place, which are ironically where tourists happen to be most of the time! and women who cover their faces are usually arabs coming as tourists not Turkish women.

Additionally Turkish people are annoyingly helpful they wouldn't leave you alone unless they are sure you do not need any help! and finally by the police presence in that area (Sultanahmet and Istiklal St.) you cannot even set off a firecracker let alone kidnapping and driving like crazy! The whole movie was bunch of crap put together to dumb down the audience!

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] quetzalcoatl2012 12 years ago

I'll be honest, I couldn't read your whole post. That's because you bitch about racism towards Turks when it's insanely obvious the bad guys are not from Turkey.

soooo, yeah, no point in listening to someone bitch who doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.

[–] TheManInOil 11 years ago

Right, because if it's not the bad guys who are being depicted in a racist way, then there's no problem.

"I'll book you. I'll book you on something. I'll find something in the book to book you on."

[–] quetzalcoatl2012 11 years ago

Try to make sense next time you reply.

[–] largo-9 12 years ago

I guess you may be reading much into it. I am an atheist Turk and I didnt even watch the movie but honestly such action packed blockbusters always need a villain and if the plot is taking place abroad then surely the villain got to be a foreigner (or simply Muslims when you consider the spirit of this age). We Turks are always an easy option for the westerns -historically speaking -actually I am bit of surpised at the fact that they do not use us more. This is probably because we did not come head to head with USA as we did with most European nations in the last centuries.So the American audience is kinda indifferent towards the 'supposed' evils of our ways. Nazis, Japanese and Reds are outdated so it is the Muslims time (Serbs and ex-soviet thugs are still fair game) I would love to say "it is just a movie" but when you read some responds to your post, it is also obvious that it is not that easy to say that as well. I dont believe the makers of this movie had a "hidden agenda" to just trash muslims etc. but I can also argue that, intentional or not, it is these type of movie making or speeches or books that draw ire from Muslims all around the world and strenghtes the notion that all westerns see themselves as evil, uncivilized and barbaric stereotypes. And then the Americans wonder why the people that they are liberating actually fight against their liberators. Would you, if you were a muslim, trust a group of people who you think see you as something a bit more advanced than wild animals?

[–] lunamuna 12 years ago

@Largo-9

You start off by saying that I am reading too much into it but you finish by concluding that xenophobic portrails of Muslims in the media are leading to increased tension and misunderstanding between Muslims and the West. I would agree with your latter statement. While it is true that this is just a typical hollywood action blockbuster, not some kind of intellectual study of Turkish culture, I don't think that this kind of portrail of Muslims is inconsequential. If this movie were just one example, then it would not mean much. But it is not just one example, it is part of a continuous flow of every-growing inaccurate and Islamophobic films. People may think that I am getting worked up about nothing but I don't think most people can see the forest for the trees. We are so used to seeing the Muslim as a terrorist, a frothing at the mouth raging fundamentalist (eg. Argo), or a faceless woman shrouded in black, that we have become immune to its distastefulness. We can look back at WWII Nazi propaganda regarding the Jews and feel disgusted by it, yet we cannot see the shocking parallels within todays media portrail of Muslims. And it's not just in films. It's in political rhetoric, right-wing newspapers, it's even in the graffiti in our local areas. Last year I found an anti-Muslim cartoon sticker posted opposite a local mosque near my house in the UK. At my previous residence, in London, I was witness to the EDL paying a visit to my local area to protest against Muslims living there.

In that respect, I guess this movie is but a drop in the ocean of the much wider and pervasive scourge of modern islamophobia.

My politics blog: http://politicasomnia.blogspot.co.uk/

[–] Artemis_Rules 11 years ago

Its not because of movie like these that Islam have a bad rep.

Its because of thousands of minorities gets slaughtered each year in muslim countries, yet nobody talks about it. If EDL protest islam, then it gets all media coverage. If turkey passes a law that makes it harder for non muslims to live in turkey, it gets no attention.

Study this and watch how liberal try to make it seem like muslims are made the victim, though its usually the non muslims who are the real victims. othodox Christians/ catholics, Buddhist etc.

Islam is an ideology on par with Nazism, and just like My country fought the nazis when they were here, we shall fight islam. the very name means submission, and when you understand that, you understand that the followers of that religion have the same mentality as the christians did during the crusades.

Just look at a country like england. muslims speakers that wants to have sharia law, allow stoning, are getting allowed to speak in england, yet ELD is almost seen as a nazi organisation.

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religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom

[–] spookyrat1 12 years ago

Did I watch a different movie or something? The villains in this movie were the same as the villains in the first movie, Albanians, only they were relations out for revenge. Was this a major problem with the first film? Yes the majority of the Albanian population is Muslim, with a fair sized Eastern Orthodox minority, but I didn't see Islam as portrayed in a bad light. Similarly, I didn't see the film as being critical of Turkey either. I think the producers just wanted a different environment and Turkey geographically is relatively close to Albania

[–] Matthor 12 years ago

Finally someone gets to this point, a movie sequel with the same villains as the first? Perish the thought!!.....

Not to mention that the first movie dealt with people trafficking which is a big problem in Eastern Europe and commonly perpetrated by Eastern European crime organisations. Colour me crazy but a fictional Albanian mafia fits that bill pretty nicely doesn't it?

Seriously, at what single point in the movie was any thing related to race or religion either negatively or overtly shoved in our faces?? I mean the closest they come to actually properly alerting you to the fact that there might be muslims in the movie, besides the covered women, is the shots of the mosques and the call to prayer which most of the movie going population would probably not even register.

I think the OP just needs to still their bleeding heart for 90 mins and enjoy Liam
Neeson kicking seven shades of crap out of the bad guys again. After all it is just a movie, a work of FICTION, not a social commentary or anything deeper than a thinly veiled excuse for guns, explosions and car chases.

[–] spookyrat1 12 years ago

Exactly! The OP and his ilk need to have cold showers and good lie downs. Bryan
and Kimmy are just getting them too worked up.

" What are you gonna do?"
"What I do best."

[–] lunamuna 12 years ago

Sure it's just a movie. But it's one of hundreds with a similar theme. Did you know that people outside of America and Europe actually watch Hollywood movies ALOT?? There's basically two major movie makers in the world - Hollywood and Bollywood. Very few countries have a movie industry to compete with that. Imagine if whenever there was a movie that featured your country, your people, people who share a religion with you, they were portrayed as criminals, terrorists, extremists or faceless (in a literal and figurative sense) women in black?

The reason people watched this movie and didn't pick up on any negative stereotypes with regards to Muslims, is because it's not something they care about. If you watched a Bollywood movie which portrayed America completely inaccurately, or portrayed Americans as gun toting villains who bomb their way through most of the world, then you would probably be on imdb bitching about that too.

The problem is Americans rarely get exposed to foreign films. Meanwhile, for the rest of the world, that is pretty much ALL they are exposed to. Don't you think this would build resentment? In the current political climate where America has basically been plundering the Muslim world for the decade, extremism is growing and we are being increasingly polarised into 'us vs. them'. Americans/Europeans are being conditioned to view Muslim people as rabid frothing at the mouth fundamentalists and Muslims are picking up on that.

My politics blog: http://politicasomnia.blogspot.co.uk/