MovieChat Forums > The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug (2013) Discussion > Is gold not terribly valuable in Middle ...

Is gold not terribly valuable in Middle Earth?


Look at that dragon treasure. Do you realize that that's more gold than humanity has ever excavated in our entire world history? Consider the imposed standards of the value of our gold, determined by those corrupt bastards that own the banks. It's a pretty valuable metal. How much gold does humanity have in its possession? About an estimated less than 4 swimming pools worth of gold. How many swimming pools worth of gold do you think that dragon is in possession of? Holy crap. Somebody should tell him that gold can't be worth a great deal in middle earth. He won't be able to buy much more past that waterfall he always talked about getting installed.
As for how big the swimming pool of gold would be; the estimated amount of gold above ground that has been mined is 181 000 tons. One cubic meter of gold would weigh about 19.3 tons. One Olympic sized swimming pool would be about 50 meters long, 25 meters wide and 2 meters deep. That amounts to 2500 cubic meters. So we end up with about 3.7 olympic swimming pools of gold. I saw more than that amount of swag in Smaug's cave! That amount if let out on the market should make the gold market for Middle Earth collapse.

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Smaug's hoard was huge, but even Tolkien probably didn't imagine it being nearly that big. Although he also had a great deal of silver, gems and worked objects included in the treasure. Smaug is also at least five times bigger in the films as Tolkien depicted him (although the author was never very specific about exactly how big was his dragon; I've seen Smaug's length in the book, based on Tolkien's illustrations, estimated at anywhere from sixty to ninety feet).

"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having." - V

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Yes, it's obvious that they enlarged their booty for the movie to ridiculous proportions. Remember that avalanche consisting of billions of skulls? Lots of oath breakers! Smaug was small?! Poor lil guy. I always imagined him to be about as big as in the movie.

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Smaug was small?! Poor lil guy. I always imagined him to be about as big as in the movie.
A ninety foot long (more-or-less) dragon is still nothing to sneeze at.

"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having." - V

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Especially if he's given the chance to sneeze back at you.

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Indeed.

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I calculated Smaug's length as a least 200 feet. Conversation with Smaug indicates that Smaug is about 40 l times a long as the width across his two nostrils. There is a scene winch Smaug is too big in insert his head into a doorway which should be five feet tall. Thus I calculated that Smaug is at least 200 feet long.

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There's s jolly little essay on a perfectly serious accountancy site describing the probability that the destruction of Smaug would have caused the collapse not merely of the gold market but the economy - and thus the political structures - of the whole of Middle-Earth:

https://www.crunch.co.uk/blog/small-business-advice/2014/04/11/dragon-economy-smaugs-death-doomed-middle-earth/.

That essay reckons Smaug's size as only 12 metres or so, based on Tolkien's own illustration of Smaug with Bilbo, A Conversation with Smaug.

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That essay reckons Smaug's size as only 12 metres or so, based on Tolkien's own illustration of Smaug with Bilbo, A Conversation with Smaug.
I've used that illustration to estimate Smaug's length myself and the reckoning of the article seems low. The team at Weta puts the length of film-Smaug at about 450 feet.

"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having." - V

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Well, that would add a twist to Dragon's Den as a business programme…

"Now with real dragon!"

"Active but Odd"

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PS. I just made this thread so I could sound smart.

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Well, gold has little inherent value. Primarily, it has been used for cosmetic purposes. What is of true value in the economy is land, livestock, etc. Gold is used as money simply because gold is rare, and money is simply a medium for exchanging things of real, inherent value. Releasing that much gold into the economy all at once would cause serious economic upheaval until prices were appropriately adjusted. People might even turn to a different substance or item to be their money, but that wouldn't really matter. Most modern money is made from cheap metals and bits of paper. It isn't the money that determines the real wealth of a nation.

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Strip away the phony tinsel of Hollywood and you find the real tinsel underneath.

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I read The Hobbit when I was 13 years old. By measuring short segments along Smaug's curved spine in the illustration "Conversation with Smaug" I calculated that Smaug was at least 40 times as long as the width across his nostrils.

Smaug was unable to squeeze his head into the opening to the tunnel to breath fire after Bilbo. So if Smaug twisted his neck by 90 degrees to make the wider part of his head vertical, his nostrils would still be too wide for the five foot high door. Thus I calculated that Smaug should have been at least 200 feet long.

The figure of Bilbo in "Conversation with Smaug" is several times too large to be in scale with Smaug, as Tolkien himself said in a letter. The dwarf skulls near to Smaug's head should be closer to the correct scale.

Since Smaug could fold his wings close to his body, and the widest part of Smaug's body seemed to be about a tenth of his total length, Smaug's total length should be ten times the width of the widest part of his body, and the width of the doorways, staircases, tunnels, etc. that Smaug passed through between his lair and the great gate thus limited his maximum possible length.

The size of Smaug gives some clue to the size of his hoard of gold and jewels.

According to some of Tolkien's writings, Morgoth the first dark lord cursed the physical world, putting his evil power in all matter and making it hostile toward living beings. Morgoth seems to have especially cursed gold, making it something that living beings lusted after.

Thousands of years later, during the second Age, Sauron gave rings of power to the seven kings of the Dwarves, hoping to enslave them to his will. But the only effect it had was to make the dwarf kings greedy for gold and seek it by any means possible. Thus the rings were responsible for the seven dwarf kingdoms amassing vast hoards of gold. Since the seven dwarf rings were designed and partially made by Sauron, no doubt they would enchant the gold in the dwarf hoards to make all persons lust after it even more than other gold.

Thousands of ears later, between about Third Age 1000 and Third age 2000, mighty dragons attacked and destroyed six of the seven dwarf kingdoms and slept on their vast hoards of gold, enchanting their gold and jewels with the dragon sickness that made people lust after it even more than for other gold.

The seventh dwarf kingdom, Moria, home to Durin's Race, was abandoned with all its incredibly vast treasures after a balrog, a terrible demon that had served Morgoth thousands of years earlier, attacked the Dwarves. About this time Scatha, the great dragon of the Grey Mountains, was slain by Fram, who took Scatha's treasures despite the claim made by Dwarves, and there was little dragon activity for centuries after.

Centuries later, about Third Age 2700, dragons reappeared and attacked Dwarf communities in the Grey Mountains, stealing their comparatively small but still vast treasures. Thror, king of the Dwarves of Durin's Race, settled in Erebor, the Lonely Mountain, and built up a vast treasure of gold and silver and jewels. Thror was the last Dwarf king to have a ring of power, and so his ring enchanted all the treasure with an even stronger magical lust than the common gold lust from Morgoth's spells.

Then Smaug came and conquered Erebor, and slept on a vast pile of the treasure, enchanting it with dragon sickness in addition to the ring-induced gold lust and the gold lust that all gold had from Morgoth's spells. Smaug's hoard had more gold than all the mined gold in the world today, and yet was tiny compared to the earlier great hoards of Darves, Men, Elves and dragons - and probably smaller than the hoard that Sauron kept for paying salaries and bribes.

Since all the gold in the world was enchanted by Morgoth's spells of gold lust, and since almost all the mined gold had once been part of the seven Dwarf ring hoards or the great dragon hoards, almost all the gold that circulated in Middle-earth as doubly or triply enchanted with spells to make people lust after gold in general and those particular gold items in particular.

Anyone who came in contact with any gold would want to own that gold and also want as much other gold as he could get and put into his hoard. So the vast supply of gold in Middle-earth did not drive on the price of gold. If anything, gold would have been even more sought after than in our time.

A glance at the map of Middle-earth shows that sometime after the end of LOTR there were one or more terrible cataclysms and the shapes of lands and seas changed. Valleys became mountains, mountains became plains, lands fell below the sea and seabeds rose to become land. No doubt all the thousands of hoards of gold, great and small, were buried deep and have never been found again. Most of the gold mined since then has never been part of any hoards in Middle-earth and thus has only the normal amount of gold enchantment on it.

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Releasing that much gold into the economy all at once would cause serious economic upheaval until prices were appropriately adjusted. People might even turn to a different substance or item to be their money, but that wouldn't really matter.


So that is why Thaurin did not want to share, he was a secret economist!

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There is a Tolkien letter in which Tolkien says that Bilbo is out of scale compared to Smaug, way too large. Try comparing Smaug to dwarf skulls and leg bones in the picture.

Or measure the width across Smaug's nostrils and his total length. I measured Smaug's length as at least 40 times the width of his nostrils. There is a scene in the book where Smaug is unable to still his snout into a doorway that should be five feet tall, implying that Smaug is wider than five feet across the nostrils. Thus Smaug should be over 200 feet long.

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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CheapGoldCoins.

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

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Oh, gold is most certainly valuable in Middle Earth, as is Mithril, that beautiful, silvery material that Bilbo's mail shirt and Arwen's jewelry was made out of. But you must understand a few things about that gold hoard:

1.) The Lonely Mountain was obviously once a volcano. In the real world, it's very common for precious metals and gemstones to be dug up around areas that either were once volcanic, or still are.

2.) They had extensive work being done by dwarves, who are the best miners in all of Middle-Earth. They have a close affiliation with the earth, so it's not surprising they are very good at finding valuables deep underground, particularly gems and precious metals.

3.) As we saw with the Elves paying tribute early in the first Hobbit film, not all of that hoard came from under the Lonely Mountain. People brought gifts to the dwarven kingdom for centuries, (including from other wealthy kingdoms) where it was piled up and kept safe, and was used for various things the dwarven kingdom needed, such as trade, or funding armies.

4.) Much of that gold was still hoarded, despite its enormous value, due to the growing greed and shortsightedness of the dwarven kings over time. It meant to be more of a demonstration of power than actually being put to use, which is why much of Middle-Earth didn't even see the golden hoard for centuries.

To be fair, it was a bad idea, keeping it all in one place. The reason why the dragon even knew about the hoard was because dragons in Middle-Earth can sense such things, which was why the Lonely Mountain was so tantalizing as a new home for Smaug. If the dwarves had been smarter, they would have stored the gold in multiple locations, both in and out of the Mountain, so that it wouldn't have attracted any possible dragons, and if the mountain was taken, the dwarves would still have access to some of the gold. But as you can see, they weren't very smart about this in the prologue.

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Well-said.

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The value of gold is really a secondary consideration when you're trying to understand the differences between Earthly society and that of Middle Earth. The most important thing to remember about Middle Earth society is that NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF!

Once you realize that, you'll automatically realize that the value of gold is of hardly any importance at all.

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