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ANTICHRIST EXPLAINED - Let's Look At The Facts / Not The Symbology


THIS THREAD DOES CONTAIN SPOILERS - PLEASE BEWARE!!

I am not going to go in to the artistic merit of this film - I think that topic has been well discussed in other threads. Also, I am not going to even raise the subject of whether you have to be intelligent to understand this film. Often there are films that have so many red herrings that you can be left perplexed. In other instances, a film can be so heavily layered in complex 'symbolic' imagery that it detracts from the story. I think that this film is a case of the latter. I will not go in to the symbology of the deer, the fox and the crow - the so called 'three beggars' - as I feel that they don't actually contribute to the essence of the story.

Finally, I don't want to discuss whether the movie was too graphic or gratuitous. That topic has also been well covered in other threads.

I saw this film a couple of days ago, and after initially leaving me confused and bewildered - I now have had some time to think about it. By no means do I think that my interpretation is 100% correct, and please don't leave any abusive posts if you disagree with me. If, however, there is anything that I have missed then please respond. I welcome your thoughts.

I don't believe that Dafoe's character is the Antichrist, as mentioned in another thread. If that was the case, then why did he try to help his wife throught the grieving process. The Devil/Antichrist is purely out for self-gain and manipulates every situation to that end. Dafoe's character shows genuine concern for his wife and tries very hard to support her through their time of loss.

Here are the facts. In the Prologue, Dafoe [He] & Gainsbourg [She] are having sex as their young son climbs out an open window and falls to his death. [The parallels to this and the death of Eric Clapton's son are nothing short of chilling.]

After a month of deep depression and heavy medication for Gainsbourg, Dafoe feels that [in his infinite wisdom] he is better prepared to accelerate his wife's recovery through the mourning process and checks her out of hospital for some one-on-one therapy. [At this point, we do not know if her depressed state is more related to Grief with the loss of her son, or is it more about the Guilt related to the combination of having the baby monitor left on silent, the safety gate left unlocked, the window left open and the fact that she saw the boy climb on to the table and fall to his death without doing anything about it. It could even be both the Guilt and the Grief - but to what extent does one dominate the other?]

At home, Dafoe initially fights-off his wife's sexual advances because He tries to keep his therapy sessions professional. Foolishly, He eventually gives in to her despite knowing that She is merely using sex as a means to temporarily forget her guilt/grief pain. Using sexual gratification [sometimes rather inappropriately] as a means of a temporary antidote becomes a central theme in her feeble attempts to dull the pain that she is constantly feeling.

It is during their therapy sessions together that He discovers that something had happened to his wife while She was working on her thesis at their holiday cabin at/or called Eden. [This is where the biblical references begin.]

It is at this point that his total aloofness/disconnection from his family is revealed. He was not even aware that She had given up working on her thesis. Furthermore, apart from the emotion that He had shown at his son's funeral, there appeared to be no other grieving shown on his part. Clearly, He was so absorbed in his psychotherapeutic work that he could only focus on the techniques as they would be applied to his wife, rather than also applying these techniques on himself.

After moving to the Eden cabin, the psychotherapy techniques become more intense - and so too does her disintegration between what she perceives as real and unreal. After all, you can't wake up from one good night's sleep and claim to be cured of your depression - now can you? He is not convinced and neither should the viewer be.

After another rough sexual encounter between He and She, She reveals why she gave up on her thesis. Her initial perspective on Gynocide [or Gynaecide/Gynecide which is defined as 'the killing of a woman/women] was that 'Nature is Satan' [i.e. 'Nature' refers to human nature and 'Satan' is the reference to the Antichrist in the title] and that men can't help themselves from hurting/torturing/killing women because evil is inherent in their nature. It is after her deep analysis of the information that She had collected that She had concluded that it is because women are also inherently evil that they bring the hurt/torture/death upon themselves. So therefore it is only natural that Gynocide happens.

Her slow descent in to madness begins at the point of this realisation. This is evident in the decline of legibility of her handwriting in the journal/scrapbook that holds all her data. Can you fight evil if it is inherent in your nature?

The autopsy report on the death of their son revealed that the boy had a deformity in his feet. The thing to consider is that young children's bones are very malleable, and can be affected by external forces to change shape. Much like oral braces can move teeth – and the application of rings can elongate the necks of young girls in Burma [Myanmar] to make them appear to be more sexually attractive to the opposite sex - She's [perhaps subconscious] attempts to torture her son by placing the wrong shoes on the wrong feet could very easily cause a growth deformity in a child so young. Let's be clear, here, it is never stated that the deformity occurred at birth - all that is said is that the deformity was unrelated to the events leading to the child's death.

[As a side note: Is it possible that She tried to deform her son's feet as a form of MBPS [Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome], in which she was seeking attention for herself by gaining sympathy from others by making her own son unwell? This idea is unlikely as there is no indication that anyone else was aware of any problem with the boy's feet, or even aware of what she was doing to his feet. The deformation was only discovered during the autopsy - whereas in most cases of MBPS the main aim is to prolong the sickness as long as possible so that the parent/caregiver causing the child's illness can maximise the attention gained from medical staff and those friends/family around her/him.]

So, is She evil? When He confronts She about the photos depicting their son with his shoes on the wrong feet, She snaps and attacks him - first by physically trying to punch and kick him and then by overpowering him in another rough sexual encounter. It is at this point that She smashes the large log in to his engorged loins and then proceeds to...well you know the rest [if you’ve already seen the film].

Does She snap because He has revealed her true evil [or Antichrist] nature, or is it because She fears that He will leave her like She claims is the case? It is hard to say what the real answer is. I do believe, though, that the act of bolting the stone wheel to his leg was done to prevent him from leaving her. Would She be able to cope with the last important person in her life leaving for good? Most definitely not, especially in her current fragile Grief/Guilt pain-ridden state.

However, if She was not evil then why did She continue with her sexual encounter when She saw her son heading for the open window that lead to his untimely death? She did have enough time to respond because the boy was only just starting to climb the table. So why didn't She save her son? Therein lies the answer. Perhaps her true evil is both inherent and uncontrollable - and that it is foolish to believe that the evil in all of us does not exist. [In much the same way that it is believed that the greatest trick that Satan had ever pulled was that he, himself, did not exist.]

When She realises that She cannot release the inner evil [or Antichrist] in her husband, thereby unleashing his 'true' nature to physically punish or torture her [in fact, her first attempt to unleash it was when she asked/begged him to beat her during sex and all he could do was slap her a couple of times], She then takes it upon herself in the act of genital self-mutilation. After all, if He won't torture her, then someone has to - and if you want a job done properly, sometimes it is just better to do it yourself.

When He awakens after being dragged back in to the cabin from the forest and tries to unbolt the stone wheel, she comes at him with the scissors and this finally unleashes his true inherent evil [or Antichrist] self.

By grabbing her by the throat and strangling her to death, he actualises her self-fulfilling prophecy that it is in all our nature to be evil and that by her acts of evil she has brought about her own act of Gynocide, by revealing/releasing his true evil [or Antichrist] self.

So, was the action of killing his wife an act of self-preservation or had He finally snapped? It's hard to say whether the answer is one or the other - or perhaps even both. At the end of the day the result is still the same - She is dead by his hands. 'Nature is Satan.'

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It's not answers we seek, but more questions. Thanks for the help! 8/10

Look at the night sky, where does it end?
http://imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=15368636

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I still don't get why she cut off her goddamn clit!

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To begin transparently, I only sought out this movie because it was described as "shocking" and "disturbing"; as well as, being a gore-hound, wanted to see the unspeakable acts of violence that occurred in the film. So the symbolism goes over my head most of the time and patience is not my strong suit.

That being said, this thread is more concerned with what actually happened in the film as opposed to any symbolic interpretation through the imagery. And, to be honest, not a lot happens. Her son dies. Ok. She's really distraught about it. Ok. They go to a cabin in the woods. Ok. That's half of the movie if not a little bit more. The second half is her (very) slow descent into maniacal and violent madness.

Granted, there is more stuff that happens but, due to the overly symbolic nature of them, these events are more like random "WTF" moments than anything significant. A dear runs away while giving birth. Ok. That probably happens a lot more than we think in the wild, nothing too strange about that. The only peculiar aspect about the first deer encounter is how long it took for it to run away. A fox is found with it's insides on the outside. Ok. Kinda creepy and weird but, again, probably very common in the wild.

This leads me to the one moment that, while kinda cool, is totally pointless. Why the hell does the fox say "Chaos Reigns"? Are we to assume this is a supernatural forest where the animals can talk and actively plot against whomever is in the forest? Or is that just a sign of He's own slow burning insanity? At no point did the characters follow up on this rather incredible event, nor did the movie itself. It's just kinda there to remind us of the title of the chapter and not much else.

The only event, in my mind, that in anyway progresses the story to give us some inkling as to what's going on is when He finds the note book, in which the notes slowly become more erratic and ultimately unreadable. Both very creepy and indicates that She clearly lost it when she first went into the woods with their son. Which is further made clear when it is revealed that she has been putting son's shoes on backwards. She is clearly batty and hid it.

Which brings me to the only inference that makes sense and can be backed up purely based on what occurs. She has abandonment issues and fears a) being alone or b) being unloved. The strange thing about her particular issue is that her fear of being unloved is directed only at He. She felt that he has been distant during their whole marriage and quit her thesis because she thought he believed it to be stupid. It's almost as if she made no attempt to embrace the love of her child. In fact, what really upset her about He was not that he seemed not to care about their son dying, rather, that He used it as a means to become even more distant from her.

It is because of this that smashing the guy's junk with a wooden log (place "Got Wood" joke here) makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. As is made explicitly clear, for one reason or another, she is defining His "love" for her purely through sexual intercourse and/or sexual climax (the reason why I say sexual climax is because she tried to have him finger her after damaging his frank and beans). Granted, she was psychotic and beyond help at this point, but why damage the one thing that she believes can bring her happiness? Why not smash a knee cap, cripple his feet (which would be appropriate since she did, in a sense, cripple her sons feet), or even bash him in the forehead to knock him unconscious? Based on the bloody money shot she jerked out, she clearly wanted some unconscious "love" if she couldn't get any conscious "love" (or maybe she wanted to check if all the bits and pieces were still working and they clearly weren't). In fact, the only act of violence she committed that made any sense was drilling a weight to his ankle since all she could say prior to that was "Don't leave me!"

That being said, here is why I think she de-clitorized herself. Could be a simple case of making things square. Think about it. He more than likely cannot enjoy the sexual act again due to the physical damage to his unmentionables. If he can't enjoy it, but she can, that's unfair. Thus, she snipped herself to be on even ground with the one she still desires "love" from. Of course, by that point, she saw almost everything he did as an indication that he wanted to leave her (can you really blame him for wanting to leave?) leading her to attack him with scissors yadda yadda yadda.



Instead of a hitlist, I have a Do NOt Kill List . . . . . so far no one is on it.

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I have thoroughly enjoyed reading through the many thoughts in this thread and I wanted to post my own questions.

Even if She was right, which she thought she was, in that all women are inherently evil and bring forth their own torture/demise, wouldn't that mean that punishment was inevitable? OK so He wouldn't abuse her like she wanted him to - why ask him to at all? Why mutilate your own body? If women are doomed to eternal damnation then all She'd have to do is sit and wait for the inevitable suffering, no?

Also, I have issue with her theory (or our theory of her theory). Even if Evil were inherent in all women, and did cause them to eventually and/or inevitably die gruesomely at the hands of men, would that mean that that's ALL they were? I guess what I'm asking is why would even the true presence of evil in a person automatically negate any good in that person? Are not people really just a mixed bag of good and bad?


------
We didn't land on Plymouth Rock; Plymouth Rock landed on Mars!

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She probably knew that everyone, including the woman, had good inside their hearts, and weren't just pure evil. If she was pure evil, she would never feel pain, grief and despair for loosing her son. The point is that, evil will eventually dominate the good, even if they don't understand it. You can see it as she keeps switching the boots and punishing her son, without noticing it.

She believes that the evil genius inside women is the catalyst for the genocide.

And she asked him for punishment because at that point, evil had taken over her, and she could only want punishment for her evilness and also by provoking violence she would incite his own evilness.

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I havent seen this movie but have heard and read a lot about it. Based purely on the genital mutilation scene I would perhaps go out on a limb and say she cut off her clitoris to prevent herself from enjoying sex (as some cultures perform female circumcisions to prevent women from enjoying it, and thus the vaginas only function is reproductive) - the thing that inadvertently killed her son.

Other scenes seem to suggest she is using sex as punishment rather than a distraction.


Just a thought

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"[The parallels to this and the death of Eric Clapton's son are nothing short of chilling.] "

NO

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I just have to say I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread. I watched the movie and was completely confused, so I came here to (hopefully) get a few answers. Most of the opinions here were very interesting, and I am a lot less confused than I was when I first got on here. I guess a lot of the film is still up for discussion, but at least I stopped thinking "WTF???" Thanks for all the thoughts on the film!

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I just finished watching the film (as I was curious about it). At first I thought "What the f@$k was that?" and so I came back here to the threads to find out what was happening in the movie.

Thank you for starting this discussion and helping me understand what was actually going on. I mostly skipped quite a few scenes (the ones showing the baby falling out the window) as I have a nephew almost the same age as the child in the movie and I couldn't bear to watch those scenes. Again thank you for helping me understand the plot.

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The title itself may beg the question: Who is Antichrist? He? She? It?

I believe this is the wrong question. In my opinion, upon watching the film, this is about the collision between our (human) ideas about nature (including our own human nature) and nature as it actually is. On this wretched and distorted couple's journey towards EDEN, Willem Dafoe's character is attracted by a sound, or perhaps just a notion, so he moves towards what turns out to be a deer. This deer at first looks cute, like something from a David Attenborough program about the majestic beauty of nature, or even Walt Disney's Bambi, but as it turns to run away we see its stillborn and miscoloured, rotting foetus hanging out from its hind parts, head waving as it bolts away.

This is the cruelty - or, rather, indifference - of nature. Whatever is "cute" about it is projected out of our own human minds. It's not really there. Just as there is no inherent "good and evil" in man (which is a crucial point in Nietzshcean philosophy, where the title is extracted from). Both possibilities exist and there's no way we can predict which one will manifest into action. "Chaos reigns" as the fox he encounters later states. On a grand scale we might perhaps suggest that "Antichrist" represents the complete loss of hope and love which seems a logical extension of accepting (and succumbing to) the cruelty of nature as the ultimate reality, rather than the "Christ" of free will; the CHOICE, painful as it may be, of reaching for something which may turn out to be nothing but an illusion but it still represents something better in mankind than being simply another beast of nature.

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I think you had an epiphany there, ironically on Christmas Day

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@MaxFaust ..Yes!

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There is one interpretation I haven't seen anybody else make. Lot's of people have mentioned the possibility that she saw her son heading for the window, did nothing to stop it and then suffered from guilt.

An alternative interpretation is that she meant for that to happen and it was her son's death to which she had her orgasm. Her darkness is the lack of control over her body and her sexuality. At one point she even says that, that woman have no control over their body. That to me is the "nature" that frightens her. The deer, representing the "mother" exists only to produce offspring (like the oak and its ceaseless rain of acorns) and the offspring exist only to die - hence the deer walking around with the stillborn dangling from the womb.

The expected cleansing is represented by the sheets in the dryer going from dark to white. Killing the child was the only way for her to regain control over her body and her sexuality and rest it away from nature, which she calls "satan's church".

She finds out of course that there is no escape from it. No cleansing and no control. She continues to try. Women are cunning foxes she says at one point (I don't remember the exact line) with fake breasts and lips, etc. which she tries as best she can to use for control. But she finds it hard to gain sexual satisfaction, and so ends up doing things like biting him, and asking to be hit. And she, like the fox, "eats" herself - another cunning trick to try and attain control.

A lot of people equate the clitoridectomy as being about guilt. This is completely unsatisfying to me. The chapter wasn't "guilt" it was "despair" - an entirely different emotion. With her husband’s body broken and their relationship also likely destroyed, and her son gone, what does she have left to use as leverage for gaining control? Nothing. Which puts her in a position of despair. She already knows this, which is why she brings the scissors WITH HER (an important point) to try and masturbate. It is her one last chance. She tries to (forcing his hand to do it) but it doesn't work for her. It is at that point, she doesn't think of the death of her son out of guilt (she has had numerous sexual opportunities to do so), but rather to fantasize about his death as a last ditch attempt to cum. Realizing she can not she cuts it off, and separates herself completely from her freedom.

For me the term Antichrist simply means there is no christ. No mythology, no witches, no blind beggars, only the darkness inside of ourselves we can not escape. That is why she abandoned her thesis. She realized there was no truth in the answer of external evil. The "evil" is inside of her and is ultimately the inability to accept the nature of things for what they are. There is no mythical meaning to dead trees, empty foxholes, babybirds getting eaten, and the landscape strewn with dead bodies. It's just the way things are. Despite the numerous symbols, none of them ever actually do anything. The only entities in the movie with any power are the man and the woman. No gods, no spirits, no evil.

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Wow, that's really *beep* up.

What is despair? Lack of hope, helplessness. It's been a long time since her son died. Nothing is getting better. She still feels guilt and now she's feeling helpless, so she mentally rewinds back and tries to change what has happened, at least in her mind, but then it brings back the guilt. She has to absolve herself of it and she transforms it into physical pain.

Also, the reason she left was because she knew it was heading somewhere really scary. The reason she tortured her son was because he was the only form of man around and she knew he was going to turn into something evil. Having buried herself in her thesis, some of it surfaced and he was the only one she could inflict it upon.

I don't think her work at Eden turned her evil. Yes, it was getting there and she subconsciously knew it, so she left it unfinished. So I don't think her orgasm had anything to do with her son dying. Also, it might be that the reason the son fell was because of that deformity. He might be a kid but I doubt he had any intentions of doing so. He wanted to just look outside.

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For me the term Antichrist simply means there is no christ. No mythology, no witches, no blind beggars, only the darkness inside of ourselves we can not escape. That is why she abandoned her thesis. She realized there was no truth in the answer of external evil. The "evil" is inside of her and is ultimately the inability to accept the nature of things for what they are. There is no mythical meaning to dead trees, empty foxholes, babybirds getting eaten, and the landscape strewn with dead bodies. It's just the way things are. Despite the numerous symbols, none of them ever actually do anything. The only entities in the movie with any power are the man and the woman. No gods, no spirits, no evil.



This is very good. The best interpretation i've read so far.

Also compared to this quote from Trier:

This leads me to ask you, what made you call the film Antichrist?


Well it was very much this feeling that God is dead, instead of Freud. That if all these things that we call the free nature of God, and all that, is basically evil to me that’s a statement that, you know, to find God as not being present there.

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I hoped that your essay would clarify this movie for me, but it just seemed to state the obvious.

Her son's feet were deformed because she put his shoes on the wrong way round. Why did she do this?

It looked like she watched her son climb onto the desk and fall out of the window. Why did she do this?

She abused her son and didn't save him when she had the chance.

Finally, what the hell was that final scene all about? He eats some berries and hundreds of women come up the mountain.

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. I'm not even convinced it's getable. It's beautifully shot and unsettling, but a garbled stream of conciousness.

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