Glamorizing laziness, refusal to help oneself, filthiness, sycophantism, utter waste of inherited wealth and resources, self-inflicted mental illness? What's next? Hallmark specials about trailer park tweakers? Or did being born rich make these two better? At least the tweakers probably at some point did something useful for society, like work at mcdonald's.
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i just don't have a lot of patience for these kinds of people. all over the world people are starving, going without health care, working themselves literally to death just to feed their families, and these two are getting movies made about them because they wasted a fortune and refused to clean their house.
shareThere but for the grace of God go you. You have no idea how this could happen, and it could happen to you.
shareit's a little late for me to be born rich.
share
what fortune did they have to waste?
property, valuables, cash. grey gardens itself was a very expensive piece of property.
share
"property, valuables, cash. grey gardens itself was a very expensive piece of property."
mr. beale ran out of money in 1935 so there was very little cash. any property or valuables were sold to support the ladies so those came in handy.
gg itself sold in 1978 to another family and little edie received the money.
yes, they sure did. they allowed both ladies to work only incredibly intermittently, and live in a giant incredible house on a beautiful property and turn it into a litterbox that jackie had to pay $30,000 to bring back to a livable state. pathetic.
shareJust curious, what is "self-inflicted mental illness"?
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why should i bother to explain it? if you don't think people can put themselves into situations where the potential for mental illness to develop exists i doubt our imdb exchange is going to be enough to inform you.
shareYou mean, why should you bother to explain it because it was some flippant phrase you pulled out of your ass and when confronted with actually defining it you realize that you're talking *beep*
Oh, okay. Like I said, just curious.
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No, you just clearly don't understand the effects of isolation and lack of peer and social interaction on personality. Sorry. Take a few 100 level psych courses.
share"Sorry. Take a few 100 level psych courses."
Oh, I would but then I'd have to go outside with all the scary monsters walking around on two feet. I haven't gone near those things in years. You might even be one of them trying to trick me into your scaly claws!!!
Isn't a natural aberration from lack of stimulus just that, a logical by- product and so outside the realm of illness? While illness is a medical condition resultant to physiological malfunctioning? So you are stating that these women were in need of medical treatment? I haven't seen the movie but I've seen the documentary and, for all of the disagreeable aspects of their chosen lifestyle, they got along in the day to day. They weren't seeing things, hearing voices, or becoming violent with others. They knew to eat and wear clothes and, one assumes, bath when the state of their body demanded it. Not sure what the doctor would prescribe but you could answer that with your psych101 expertise.
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" bath when the state of their body demanded it."
shey,
i don't believe the ladies had any form of mental illness but i have to take issue with your above statement.
there was very little running water at gg, witness the tiny bit of water that little edie used in the "fire" or what she gave to mr. maysles.
also, when big edie was admitted to south hampton hospital just prior to her death, the staff refused to take her to her room until she had a good bath! i doubt she had bathed in years.
Well then, I retract my bathing statement. Shame, nothing like a nice hot shower!
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Hello Ellen,
Where did you find the info about Big Edie's admission to the hospital? Was this info in Lois Wright's book? I can't believe she had not developed a septic infection from her lack of bathing...Instead of wasting money on feeding those racoons, they should have bought bathing supplies and such. I pity those nurses that had to bathe her...............GAH! I'm gagging just writing this! Don't even get me started about those filthy beds!
Jazzfan1964;-)
Really? Really? Wow.
shareSalinger & Thoreau were notorious hermits. Still maintained their sanity. Doesn't that debunk your theory? I'm not saying that chronic isolation can't reap potential damage on the psyche. I'm just saying it can feed it too.
Grey Gardens is a fascinating portrait of two highly unique, entertaining, tragic women. I found the journey of their descent & the symbiosis of the mother/daughter relationship compelling. I found Little Edie, in particular, to be an endearing curiosity and am equally wowed by her boldness, her blindness, her insight, & her insecurity.
Judging is easier than understanding. This film attempts (and succeeds at) understanding them which is what makes it special. If you want judgment, watch the documentary.
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger."
" I found Little Edie, in particular, to be an endearing curiosity and am equally wowed by her boldness, her blindness, her insight, & her insecurity."
patronizing,
i so agree! little edie was so fascinating, she must have been incredible to meet and visit with. her mother was incredibly jealous of her, little edie was everything her mother wasn't.
it must have been difficult for them to live together. i know the love was there but the envy often outshone that love.
little edie was very popular after she left gg and lived the way she should always have lived.
I agree with this completely. Big Edie (in the RL doc) seemed very jealous and controlling of Little Edies energy and spirit. It's so sad that her creativity was squelched, but she seemed to live out her later years in a way that was her own.
I believe they had what's known as compulsive hoarding. My brother's wife has it, though not quite as bad as the Edies'. It's basically a neurological problem. Throwing things away brings upon intense psychological distress. As the detritus of life accumulates it becomes overwhelming. Often people stop cleaning and gradually acclimate to the odor and filth. Some people are aware of the state of their houses and distressed by it, while others are oblivious like the Edies.
There is a show on A&E called hoarders if you want to see more examples of it. And, I don't think people can put themselves into situations "where mental illness develops". It doesn't work that way. (Even if you confuse the appeal of the film with glorification of filth, please try to gain a better understanding of mental illness.) Compulsive hoarders show brain abnormalities on their MRIs. It's a very difficult illness to treat successfully.
Yon cannot JUDGE people of previous time periods by the standards of today. People who do are the disgusting was.
A woman in those days married well. That was what Little Edie's father wanted her groomed for.
Anyway, Big Edie only got $150/month from her husband. She had no skills. Fixing a property costs money. Big Edie's sons tried to get her to sell the property. Their father did not have much for them to inherit. Big Edie did not want to sell.
But at least the home itself was paid for and they were able to eek out an existence until Jackie and Aristotle stepped in to assist them.
This was a great film. Jessica and Drew were excellent.
This film is also a testament to how important HBO Films is to entertainment. Well done!
The failure to adapt to their new lifestyle can be seen by some as a mental condition. Losing one's fortune, and not knowing how to clean a house doesn't really automatically turn into allowing cats to defecate on your bed. The Edies knew HOW to take a bath. They could have adapted to their situation.
For those in this thread that are citing hoarding disorders, I agree. The city cleaned out newspapers, cat food tins, etc. The description of the house that Lois Wright gave is very much like Diogenes Syndrome.
There is also an article online that interviewed one of Little Edie's nephews. She lived with his family for a bit after Big Edie died, and he does mention that she may have not been all together mentally.
"The city cleaned out newspapers, cat food tins, etc."
mersey,
east hampton is a small town, not a city, they did not clean out the house. aristotle onassis paid for all the work done at gg in 1972.
little edie took baths when there was running water. her mother had osteoporosis and wasn't able to get in a tub.
they weren't hoarding anything. there was a ton of trash there because they couldn't afford trash pickup. they weren't deliberately hoarding trash.
the nephew who visited big edie on rare occasions was not qualified to say she had any mental health issues. he lived in okla. and rarely saw his grandmother.
Lily, I know the area well, as I go to the Hamptons every summer. There is a council, etc. in East Hampton. :)
Here is an interesting interview with Chris Beale. Little Edie lived with him for 70 or so days after Big Edie died:
http://www.corinescorner.com/interview/ChrisBeale.htm
As for the trash, we will have to agree to disagree. I respect your opinion, but I just don't agree. Sane people adapt to their surroundings and situation. The failure to remove trash was not adapting to surroundings. Allowing cats to go to the bathroom on your bed is also not normal. Keeping dead kittens on your bed is not normal. Big Edie could have had a sponge bath. There were SO MANY other options. :(
There is also an article online that interviewed one of Little Edie's nephews. She lived with his family for a bit after Big Edie died, and he does mention that she may have not been all together mentally.
"A woman in those days married well. That was what Little Edie's father wanted her groomed for.
Anyway, Big Edie only got $150/month from her husband. She had no skills. Fixing a property costs money. Big Edie's sons tried to get her to sell the property. Their father did not have much for them to inherit. Big Edie did not want to sell."
These are good points that deserve to be coupled with some very important realities. (Disclaimer: this post is not directed at any one person.)
I don't know where any of you are from, but I am from Michigan in the U.S. The economy is horrible and many, many people are out of work. I chose to leave a rental house that I absolutely loved. I endured hard winters (it wasn't unusual to get 2-4 feet of snow in one day or to have blizzards) in a secluded home on a lot of property and I loved it. Due to a job loss, I knew I had to leave.
I moved far away to my parents' home. It hurts. It really pains to me not have that secluded home with a long driveway that could take hours for me clear of snow. Unlike Edie and Edie, I kept my home clean, but I did have clutter. I had a lifetime of things that were special because they carried memories, and many of my things were quite useful for reference, research or entertainment.
I had another home that I bought several years before that I lost due to another job loss. It was painful leaving that home because it was mine. It was wonderful. It was me.
My basement flooded and destroyed many of my things. It took months for me to finally clean it out because I was extremely overwhelmed by the damage. My family helped me when they came to visit. This was also while I was moving out.
One of the key differences between my situation and the situation of "the Edies" is that I know that I can go on an rebuild my life to support myself and regain my independence. It hasn't been until fairly recently that women could actually go out and make a good enough living to achieve this. The Edies did not live in this time period, nor did they have marketable skills - a normal product of their society in that respect. Grey Gardens was the only thing that "Big Edie" had that was truly hers, and if she let it go, she would see the only thing that would truly be hers go away. I can understand her reluctance, in that respect.
As far as squandering money goes, any of you who rush into stores the day after Thanksgiving for phenomenal deals on useless things, you are just as guilty of squandering as the ladies in this film. The difference is that today's society allows that, although many have suddenly hit a wall - another result of our society.
When one has the means, one develops a false sense of what necessities are. To learn what true necessities are, and to develop true stewardship, in most cases, one must learn from those who have already learned it. Living simply takes a lot of work and know-how. After all, nothing in life is free.
The Edies had no one to teach them how to repair their home or do anything else for themselves. Again, they were a product of their society. With that said, I really don't see how those of you who are sitting behind your nice computers with your expensive Internet connections in your nice homes among the unnecessary junk you've acquired from stores just because it was on sale and you wanted it, I don't see how you can justify criticizing these ladies when you are just as guilty.
We are all in different situations, have different skills, and have different abilities to cope with different situations. With that said, take the movie as it is and quit being so critical, because you also have problems. No one is perfect.
"I believe they had what's known as compulsive hoarding."
rnd,
what exactly do you think the edies were hoarding?
i've seen the hoarders show, do you think those homes were similar to gg?
I've posted this on the website for the original documentary, but want to post it here, as well, especially since I see so many comments about the "mental illness" of the Beales:
"I have been a licensed clinical social worker for thirty years. When I worked for Los Angeles County Department of Social Services in the '70s I visited a number of semi-reclusive older clients who indeed had what is now known as Diogene's Syndrome. These people were true hoarders. I don't see the Beales as such. Rather, they appeared to be overwhelmed, living in poverty and unable, because of the nature of their life status, to figure out ways to keep up with clearing out daily clutter. As a former supervising psychotherapist, I think they may had some obsessive traits, and that both may have suffered periods of depression, given their circumstances. But I don't see any symptoms of bipolar disorder in the two documentaries, and certainly none of schizophrenia. Neither of them were hearing voices or appear to be delusional. They may have embellished certain encounters...Joe Kennedy, Jr., Howard Hughes, but neither was fantasizing about intense relationships with people they never actually met, so far as I could see in the films."
Additionally, I think many people are enchanted with Little Edie's "staunch character," and blithe spirit. She indeed was an original, an artiste, if not a true artist. Though she pictured herself as a dancer, singer, actress, her true talent was in her perceptiveness about how the world works and how she could fit into it, one way or another.
As for the Beales hauling out their own trash, as I recall, their car didn't work, they didn't have curb trash pickup, so what were they to do? They had no idea how to manage the daily tasks that most of us are accustomed to do for outselves. Remember that Edie lived at the Barbizon Hotel in New York...she didn't have her own place for long. And at those residential hotels services were provided...she wasn't vacuuming and dusting and cleaning windows.
Peace.
Telders: an excellent post. Too bad hexrei (OP) didn't hang around long enough to see how all of this played out. I guess the fun went out of it when s/he wasn't being attacked. I especially liked your statement that "they may have embellished certain encounters". I think we see this not only as encounters, but what they honestly believe. For example, when Big Edie is saying that she never had a fight with Mr. Beale. She never threw a single thing at him. I always giggle when I hear that line. To believe that a fight consists only of throwning things speaks volumes to not only her belief system, but also in how she may have been raised.
This is one of the best threads I have read on IMDb.
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WHOA! Sweet comeback! Don't forget to tell the special ed teacher about your awesome rebuttal tomorrow in the trailer outside the normal kids' school.
shareYes, they put themselves in that position. Yes, they were living in their disgusting mansion that they destroyed. Yes, they were disgusting for putting up with those conditions. But I don't think there's any reason to be mad at them. They're both dead, the mansion's been restored, and their story is entertaining. I don't think we need to worry about people watching this movie and adopting their stanky lifestyle, either.
This movie and the documentary glamorizes nothing. If anything it's exposing the
darker side of the idle rich lifestyle. These women aren't heroes. These women aren't victims. They are a by-product of a world and time in history in which women were only useful as trophies and were discouraged form being independent. To get the goodies, the women played right along. Little Edie attempted to fight it, but not as hard as she could. Jackie Onassis was a product of this life, but somewhere along the way realized that she had to generate her own income to have some dignity.
The Beales appeal doesn't come from their so-called struggle, but the fact that they're so hell bent on being stubborn that they normalize their situation. That fact is so weird, tragic, and funny that they became entertaining train wrecks.
I don't think the purpose is to say how cool their situation is and everyone should be like them. Over and over again the movie shows how many times they could have made the right decision, but stubbornly stuck themselves in their bad situation. It showed their stupidity, arrogance, and passive attitude. They weren't always portrayed as sympathetic characters. I actually felt sorry for the people that tried to help them.
The reason their story is popular, I think, is because Little Edie is funny and unique as a person and to see that at least we're not as bad as they were. Plus, Little Edie's outfits are classic; though no one but her should wear them.
hexrie, to someone else saying this:
"hexrei YOU are the disgusting one. What do you think of that?"
You reply with this:
"WHOA! Sweet comeback! Don't forget to tell the special ed teacher about your awesome rebuttal tomorrow in the trailer outside the normal kids' school."
But to me saying this:
"Isn't a natural aberration from lack of stimulus just that, a logical by- product and so outside the realm of illness? While illness is a medical condition resultant to physiological malfunctioning? So you are stating that these women were in need of medical treatment? I haven't seen the movie but I've seen the documentary and, for all of the disagreeable aspects of their chosen lifestyle, they got along in the day to day. They weren't seeing things, hearing voices, or becoming violent with others. They knew to eat and wear clothes and, one assumes, bath when the state of their body demanded it. Not sure what the doctor would prescribe but you could answer that with your psych101 expertise."
You say this:
"Really? Really? Wow."
So which is it? You blatantly mock the curt response which has about the same amount of class and thoughtfulness as your original post and to a concise, well-thought and pointed response you feign some dismay and, in the end, mock it as well. To your (for some reason doubled-up) use of "Really? Really? Wow." as a response I could just as well cut your own response and say "WHOA! Sweet comeback! Don't forget to blah blah blah..."
In short, you're too much of dolt to know the differences in your own self across the space of about the one minute separating the posting of those two responses. "Disgusting", as that person said, probably isn't so accurate of a descriptor for you as just plain sad. You're what I'll call a troll-by-default because fate has determined that you're too stupid to be worthy of an honest trading of sentiments.
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On $150/month, I doubt they could pay for trash collection and also eat. I don't understand what people who make a decent living or their spouse makes a decent living for their family or their parents don't get about being destitute.
A house paid for with no running water is better than sleeping under a bridge in the elements. It costs money to renovate. It also costs money to buy food. When you only get $150/mo what would you spend your money on? Keeping up the place or eating?
Eating of course. It is a no-brainer.
"Eating of course. It is a no-brainer. "
no gluten,
i couldn't agree more. the ladies chose food over anything else because they had to stay alive. should they have chosen garbage disposal over food?
i don't understand why people are so critical of the ladies, they did the best they could without leaving their home for so many years. many of us would not have chosen to stay in a place like gg but why leave a home of over 50 years? they were comfortable there despite their horrendous living conditions, that was their home and they belonged there. big edie was too old to leave and start all over in a shelter or rented room without her pets.
i wouldn't have chosen to stay there, few of us would but it was their choice, their lives. how can we judge what others do?
$150 in 1931 (when Edith/Phelan they were divorced) would be equal to just over $2,000 in 2008 once adjusted for inflation. That is how much she was given per month (I would assume until Phelan's death in 1956). Edith (Sr.) also received a trust from her family in 1948 (the amount was $65,000, which would be equal to just over $550,000 today - she would have received more had she not been estranged from her parents due to her behavior).
I think that they could have afforded garbage removal AND food for quite some time if they had invested/spent the money wisely.
I saw the documentry many years ago and remembered it when the movie was advertised on HBO. I have watched it a few times, the beginning is fun to watch for the great costumes and music. However, it becomes very intense as the two women slide into squalor. I cound never stop thinking, for gosh sakes, what would it take to take our your own rubbish? Were they that lazy they could not haul a bag or can of rubbish out? How about a burn barrel? These I believe were two women too lazy to work or even clean their house. I have alway read this board, but finally found this question were, it seems, many had the same thoughts as I did, TWO LAZY WOMEN.
shareI don't think either of them ever learned how to keep a house clean. They came from a family that always had maids and servants to do all that. But watch "Hoarders" on A&E and you'll see this living in filth affliction is not such a rarity. One woman had let her filth and excrement pile up until it rotted a hole through her bathroom floor, another had goats that ate a hole through the wall of her house and another cat-hoarding elderly couple had a bunch of dead and flattened cats buried under the piles of junk.
Glamorizing? Not really.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz0FSG9h-GI
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sounds like you are projecting. born into poverty or surrounded by mental illness that can not afford to be treated. you sound full of resentment. some people lack empathy, sociopaths. this could be you. the fact you credit 'tweakers' as being better than people suffering from mental illness, really? why does anyone have to be 'better' than anyone in your scenarios? you can't miss something if you've never had it. these women had it all. that is a lot to miss. your inability to be empathetic is astounding. the only way i could give you a pass, if if you are very young & inexperienced. as it stands, you sound incredibly ignorant & jealous (jealous of two old beaten women). your life must be really great.
serva me, serva bote