It was Tomas, NOT Simon. - El orfanato (2008) Discussion

[–] aamotc 13 years ago

[Summary]: Simon is the masked child at the party, but Thomas existed and worked behind the scenes.

You might actually be onto something with that whistle. That doesn't quite add up. But you should read carefully some of the posts discussing whether it was Simon or Thomas, they offer a lot more detail on the series of events.

Before we see the masked child at the party, Simon keeps trying to show Laura "Thomas's little house," so by the party, we know Simon has already discovered it.

I think the scary breathing noises were just intended to be scary. We can chalk it up to Simon trying to scare his mother, or the director just trying to freak out the audience.

The masked child pushes Laura into the bathroom, then taunts her through the window. All those clues he left were a part of his and his mother's game together; he hid at the end location waiting to be found and show his mom the room. I think Thomas (having taught Simon that game) helped Simon place the trail of clues. Besides, Simon believed Thomas was a real kid; his parents thought he was an imaginary friend.

But Laura gets hurt. After realizing that Simon is missing, she gets hurt again. She's too distraught to think about playing that scavenger hunt game.

I think the masked child in the cave was actually Thomas. It's where he died and the sea was violent like it was during his death. I think that was Thomas's ghost "echoing" where he died, as the Medium talked about. It's where Simon first meets him too.

And the biggest point is that Simon was only shown wearing the mask at the end to show you that he was the masked child all along. Without that reveal, there is absolutely no other reason for showing him in the mask.

---
"Friends! Help! A guinea pig tricked me!"

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[–] noelle_film_fanatic 13 years ago

I do see what your getting at, but I still stand by my opinion. No one can actually say that they know it was one or the other, unless the director comes out and states so.

The strange breathing noises were not just an effect; the only people who would make those sounds are someone with a disorder. As you see in the Super 8 film, Tomas had severely distorted facial features that would cause that. Also, Simon, being his age, wouldn't do that just to creep out his mother.

Yes, Laura originally believed that Tomas was an imaginary friend. But as you can recall, towards the end the ghost did touch her when playing "knock on the wall". Having that proof, we can say she interacted with the ghosts- seeing Tomas in the hall and trying to take off his mask. Here's another thought: Aurora said people whom are closer to death are able to have contact with the dead. This applies to both Simon and eventually Laura.

I don't think Simon waited downstairs that whole time during the party and left the clues so Laura could find him. Remember, Simon went down there to hide, and was eventually going to come back up. But Laura unintentionally blocked the door. Also, if Simon was busy leaving the clues Laura surely would've seen him; it would take too long before Laura notices he's missing. So I figure he went downstairs immediately. After 9 months of waiting, when she reconstructed the orphanage, the first clue was the window shutting and the glass shattering. How could Simon guarantee she would find it in the first place without that happening? Tomas and the other ghosts left the clues to lead Laura to Simon.

Going back to the whistle, Simon would not have been wearing it, along with the entire orphanage uniform. Then, when Benigna died, she was wearing it. How would she have it without the contact of a ghost? Or a better question, how would Simon get that and the orphan uniform in the first place? I speculate the reason Simon was wearing the mask (ONLY the mask) at the end was to give effect, assuming Tomas put it on Simon.

I read a lot of the posts in the topic "Who pushed Laura into the bathroom?" And I concluded that the people who agreed with my opinion had way more logical reasons.

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[–] slimjimpui 13 years ago

*spoilers*

One issue I might raise is that when we see Tomas join the other children at the end of the film, he is not making those weird snuffling, wheezing noises. Even if you side with the supernatural interpretation, you have to question how this strange respiratory handicap could have gone away unless Laura's attacker was a different person pretending to be Tomas: someone who knew of Tomas but had actually never met him.

In addition to your thoughts on the mysterious teleporting whistle: there are simply two whistles- one for Benigna and one for Tomas. Watch the super8 again and you will see this. It is implied yet never exposited that Benigna occasionally took Tomas out for day trips away from the orphanage and they both had whistles as a means of making sure she could keep track of him if he wandered off out of sight. After his death, all his stuff seemed to have been left in the basement(pressumably for someone to find one day) along with his uniform, mask and whistle. Benigna kept her whistle because she was trapped in the past as we see when she is shown to be pushing a pram with an effigy of Tomas around in the nearby village.

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[–] noelle_film_fanatic 13 years ago

Oh, well, that explains the whistle. I didn't notice that. Thanks! That solves one issue. :]

You made me think when you said at the end of the movie he's not making the noises... But then it occurred to me that that might be because Laura was now dead, too. He also had no problem exposing his face when she was dead, as opposed to when she was alive. Even though he was dead the whole time, he may seem more alive to someone who is. Just a thought.

Going back to the uniform, I don't know if he would've left it downstairs for someone to find. When he died, he must of kept the clothes on, seeming they appear on the ghost. (Considering the conditions, I don't think he would've had a funeral; along with the other kids.) What would he be wearing if he didn't? Oh, and yes, I think we can conclude Benigna went crazy.

Another thing came across my mind. It might be a bit of a stretch, but who knows. Even though Tomas and Simon were friends, Tomas could of killed Simon. Possibly because he wanted to be with him longer without him growing up? We can say Tomas could've put the mask on Simon when he was at the top of the stairs trying to get out. Simon would not be able to see, causing him to fall down the stairs and break his neck, killing him.

Maybe...

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[–] slimjimpui 13 years ago

*more spoilers*

For me, the whole thing about Laura seeing Tomas without the mask- it seems to me that she has overcome her childhood fears by the end of the movie and to do so she must regress back to childhood(when she surrounds herself with the toys of her deceased friends and has a game of 123 knock on the wall). It is another detail that is only implied but it appears that Laura is dismorphophobic- look how scared she is when she is watching the slow reveal of Tomas's face on the super8 film. This hints at a deleted scene where we see a younger Laura encounter the enigmatic Tomas on the eve of her adoption before running frightened into the middle of the night. Since that encounter Laura has shelved the memory because she doesn't want to confront it until she has to when it appears Simon and Tomas are representations of each other: Simon's illness was kept hidden as was Tomas's face. To find Simon she must face her fears of Tomas.

Tomas wore his own clothes under the uniform- notice when he is on the beach he has a waistcoat and a white shirt and the smock is worn over that. So he probably would have been buried in his regular clothes without the smock and mask. I think Benigna left Tomas's stuff in the basement so someone would one day discover the awful truth about how he was treated- like how her super8 film shows that other employee at the orphanage throw him back inside the house when he is waving at the camera.

With regards to Simon's death, I feel that it is only a tragic outcome of him banging against the secret door in an attempt to escape and being knocked back downstairs by the rebounding poles wedged against the other side. These are of course all theories of a film that maintains its ambiguity til the end and keeps its exposition to a minimum.

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[–] king_of_bob 13 years ago

I do see what your getting at, but I still stand by my opinion. No one can actually say that they know it was one or the other, unless the director comes out and states so.

Actually we can, with one HUGE piece of evidence. Namely the fact that as I said, Laura had a physical piece of evidence, which shouldn't be possible if she tried to rip a piece off the ghosts mask.

The strange breathing noises were not just an effect; the only people who would make those sounds are someone with a disorder. As you see in the Super 8 film, Tomas had severely distorted facial features that would cause that. Also, Simon, being his age, wouldn't do that just to creep out his mother.

Having a disfigured face does not make you wheeze like that. And you're absolutely wrong that a child wouldn't adopt an affectation to freak out their mother. I used to do it all the time when I was a kid.

Yes, Laura originally believed that Tomas was an imaginary friend. But as you can recall, towards the end the ghost did touch her when playing "knock on the wall". Having that proof, we can say she interacted with the ghosts- seeing Tomas in the hall and trying to take off his mask. Here's another thought: Aurora said people whom are closer to death are able to have contact with the dead. This applies to both Simon and eventually Laura.

They can touch her, but they aren't physically there. Meaning it should be impossible for her to have actually ripped a piece off of a ghosts mask. You seem to be completely ignoring that fact.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

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[–] tallard 13 years ago

In the DVD extras the director/producer-s talk about how the intent of the film is not to portray ghosts but to portray how the human mind can go insane. It is all about hallucinations and the imaginary, not about the supernatural. They purposefully edited out scenes where the story line was a bit more explanatory in order to create a ghoolish sense of mystery, to let the viewer get a bit more confused. If things are all spelled out, it makes it a bit less entertaining. All ghost-like events are her (and the charlatans') imaginings.

***So I've seen 4 movies/wk in theatre for a 1/4 century, call me crazy?**

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[–] yamac 13 years ago

I agree with the original poster that it was Thomas who pushed her into the bathroom. If you notice she grabs what looks like a piece of hair from the kid when she is pushed. Later she shows the hair to the fat man (who recommends the medium) and tells him that this is from the kidnapper of her son and that the police says he is dead for over 30 years. My understanding is that they tested the hair and concluded that it came from someone who was dead for a long time.

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[–] slimjimpui 13 years ago

That isn't hair- it's part of Tomas's old mask

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[–] VampireSlayer11 13 years ago

If you use common logic its Simon

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[–] king_of_bob 13 years ago

They don't say "He's been dead for 30 years". It's not actually hair, it's part of the mask. And the fact that it physically exists PROVES that it could not possibly have been Thomas, since Thomas is a ghost, which by definition does not physically exist.

What they actually say is that the fabric is dated at 30 years old. Which is how old the mask is.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

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[–] sudhindrashamanna 12 years ago

No one thinks Laura ripping out a physical piece of object from a supposed ghost might be a goof? May be even deliberate?

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[–] king_of_bob 12 years ago

It's deliberate, but it's definitely not a goof. It's a major clue that it was Simon wearing Thomas' outfit.

If it were a goof, they wouldn't make it a plot point. Not only does it physically exist, but she shows it to other people in an attempt to prove she isn't crazy. But again, if it was Thomas, the piece of fabric would be nonphysical and she definitely would not be able to show it to other people.

Again, it's not a goof, it's a huge clue.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

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[–] embracing_silence 13 years ago

I think it was Simon dressed up as Tomas at the party, but I think it was the spirits of him and the other children that helped Laura find Simon's body and their bodies.

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[–] theCurlyone 13 years ago

however, at the party, !nobody! remembers seeing a child in a sack mask.
strange?
sounds spooky to me

Beneath the Cherry Tree, where the Ripe fall

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[–] MrBelette 13 years ago

There's nothing so "obvious" as you may want it to be. It's just left to anyone to interpret it. So for me it was Simon.

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[–] aamotc 13 years ago

That just means that nobody noticed him or that she didn't speak to anybody who had. Not that he was invisible, but to add a sense of mystery or urgency.

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[–] king_of_bob 13 years ago

Why would anyone remember if there was? Did you miss the fact that pretty much everyone was wearing a mask?

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

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[–] tallard 13 years ago

Because there was nothing to see... it's all her hallucinations. This is Guillermo's specialty (and his new protégé), analysing the mind... not hauntings.

***So I've seen 4 movies/wk in theatre for a 1/4 century, call me crazy?**

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[–] holographica 13 years ago

This is what I think too, sort of.

The thing I like about hallucination movies is 1) they put things into perspective and b) they blur the line between fantasy and reality thus opening our minds to possibility.

With putting things into perspective, these movies illustrate what's really going through the mind of some mentally unstable folks. It gives us a unique degree of understanding.

With fantasy vs. reality talk, the films insert logic into seemingly irrational thoughts. In this movie, her hallucinations led her to truth in reality. Could she have accomplished her quest for truth by skipping the fantasy? Yes. Did she? Actually, no. Not really. Fantasy led her to truth so why completely dismiss its existence or legitimacy?

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[–] Amazon_Bass 13 years ago

She was allucinating, but Simon COULD see Tomas?

Hallucination for her and paranormality for him? Two solutions in the same movie?

Or has he imagined things as well, from what he had seen from the basement?

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[–] king_of_bob 12 years ago

Everything you said, false.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

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[–] Miss-Meggo 13 years ago

I want to point out a couple of other flaws in your argument, or at least a couple other readings from the one's you gave: You say you don't think he could have locked her in the bathroom, changed, then planted all the clues and ended up in the cave, but I think you're missing two very important points from the movie. There was a very long period of time between when he says "I want to show you Tomas's house" and him pushing her into the bathroom. He could have planted the clues before hand, intending to arouse her so she would try to find him, and then discover that he'd been "taken" and have to play the game. He didn't intentionally hurt her I don't think. He either didn't realize that he was hurting her or could have used more force than he intended because of pent up frustration about being lied to (in his eyes) about his adoption and illness as well as her not humoring him and slapping him earlier that morning.
Second point is you mention the cave. I'm assuming you're referring to the part where Laura is running through the surf, thinking that he's gone to the cave and panicking because the tide is coming in. When she looks up, she sees a child in the mouth of the cave. But what you're missing here is that there is a single shot from Carlos's perspective as well: a shot of the mouth of the cave without a child in it. If you go back and watch the scene again it's set up something like this: Laura running and falling, yelling Simon's name, then a shot of the cave with a child in it. Then Carlos grabbing her and saying something like "There's no one there." Then the shot of the empty cave. and a subsequent shot of Laura insisting someone is there and a shot of the cave with the child in it again. So, from Simon's disappearance, they're setting up that Laura is experiencing something different than most other people.

One thing I did initially have a problem with was the doll. I think Bayona intended for both readings (that there are or aren't ghost) to be plausible, but for a while I couldn't explain the doll that she found in her bed and how she could have been expected to discover it if there weren't any ghost. But I just went back and rewatched that scene and noticed something I hadn't noticed before: One of the boards she pulls out from under the seat has her own name on it. The second or third shot after she's removed the cushion, it shows her removing a block and setting it onto of a block that she has already removed; the one she had already removed has her name on it. So I think for me that's the last puzzle piece as far as explaining how there might not be ghosts is concerned. Simon, being a child in a new house with no friends yet, spent his time exploring, as kids are wont to do. He discovered the hiding place for the dolls, recognized his mom's name and assumed she would recognize the doll. I can't say for certain whether or not the doll he takes is supposed to be her doll, but I can say that the doll she finds in the bed is wearing the same color dress as the young Laura that she sees running across the yard after she wishes to have simon back.

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[–] king_of_bob 13 years ago

I do not believe that is correct. Notice that when she finds Simon's body at the end of the movie he's wearing Thomas' clothes. The implication is that Simon put on the clothes, locked her in the bathroom and then went down to Thomas' "little house".

Not to mention, how did she manage to rip a physical piece of cloth from the mask of a non-physical entity?

But Simon couldn't go downstairs, change, plant all the clues, go outside, go back up, go the the cave in the beach, and then end up downstairs again. And I don't think he would make strange noises, either. It was obviously the ghost!

You're confused. Simon didn't place the clues. He was in the basement. It's also likely that it wasn't him that she saw in the cave, since he was trapped in the basement at that point.

Which strange noises are you talking about? The banging she heard? That absolutely was Simon. He was banging on the door, then feel off the stairs breaking the railing, which ended up killing him.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

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[–] alveolate 12 years ago

on another note -- and this may have been brought up in other threads -- i believe the scavenger hunt clues may be done by Tomas, or physically set up by Simon under Tomas' guidance/instruction.

some reasons:
1. it's a new game which Simon only learnt upon moving to the orphanage.
2. the first set of clues (leading to the HIV dossier in the drawer) seems to indicate some supernatural knowledge, since they use many parts of the house, some of which seem a little difficult for Simon to discover (but of course, he could've discovered them himself after all).
3. the second set of clues (leading to Tomas' "la casita") also seem to indicate supernatural circumstances. when Laura opened the storeroom door, those heavy metal poles fell out immediately. it is doubtful that Simon managed to get to the door over these obstacles without moving them away (since they are apparently heavy enough to block him from coming out). also, how did he open the door and go in if he had taken the doorknob out as a clue? quite physically improbable.

other points:
regarding 2., granted, when Laura and Carlos sit down to chat with Simon, Carlos plainly states that Simon overheard Laura talking to Benigna about the adoption and illness (this would fit into the "Hallucination" reading). nonetheless, the collected seashells and footsteps in the cave (assuming they were really physical) would be very amazing unsolved mysteries without the ghost reading.

regarding 2., Simon seemed to enjoy tracing the first scavenger hunt's items with Laura, almost as if he was discovering items set up by someone else. he also did a huge 180deg turn in attitude once he happened upon the dossier, almost like he was seeing it for the first time, and the dossier confirmed his worst suspicions. my take on this is that Tomas asked Simon: do you really have a mother (unlike us)? and: why are you taking those pills? these questions were probably asked in all childlike innocence, just as children on a playground may ask seemingly blunt questions about new friends. Simon may have had some suspicions, which got very justified upon seeing the dossier.

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[–] tallard 13 years ago

I also tend to saying it was not Tomas, but this film is also the most non ghostly of ghost movies. The director/producer's intent was to demonstrate the frailty of the human mind in times of hardship. So Tomas was not a 'ghost', since they don't exist... it was simply Laura hallucinating him.

Think back to many other films where protagonists fight non-existent beings... it brings to mind Fight Club most strongly :) It's insane what lengths a distressed brain will go to to justify itself.

***So I've seen 4 movies/wk in theatre for a 1/4 century, call me crazy?**

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[–] king_of_bob 12 years ago

Untrue. Thomas was a ghost. Simon saw and played with him. Laura was not the only person to see Thomas. There's no way Simon could have known as much as he did if Thomas was simply a hallucination of Laura.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

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[–] teddyq10 13 years ago

It seems that you have not seen the movie my friend. SPOILER ALERT: There aren't really any ghosts in the movie. Simon has imaginary friends. he is outraged at his mother for her neglect towards him and that's why he pushes her in the tub. he wants to finish up the scavenger hunt game.

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[–] jmanzano17 13 years ago

All these assumptions about the movie just makes me laugh! Can't you all just enjoy the movie and leave it as it is. It's not like the director will answer to every question you got. Suck it up and just shut the hell up. It's all about personal views. Don't argue about it because it's silly.

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[–] Amazon_Bass 13 years ago

Hey jmanzano,

I can't agree less.

This is a discussion board, a place for the ones who like to discuss and get a better understanding of the movie.

Of course there are a lot of subjective threads around, which, usually, no one has the "right" answer. People fell good discussing them anyway, and you just can't condemn them for that. It turns out, also, that these subjective threads are usually the most interesting ones.

If you don't like - or don't see a point - discussing, no problem. Just let others be happy, ok?

Live and let live.

[]s

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[–] king_of_bob 12 years ago

You're deluding yourself. There is a correct answer and the movie provides plenty of clues towards that answer. Using your personal views isn't going to help you come to the correct conclusion.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

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