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A Complete Solution to The Fountain (Warning: Spoilers)

posted 15 years ago by the-devil-boy
249 replies | jump to latest

I can’t think of a film that’s more visually beautiful and conceptually challenging than this. It took me three weeks of analysis and multiple careful viewings to resolve all of the questions I had about it.

For starters, it’s clear that The Fountain is a cinematic puzzle. Aronofsky stated this in an interview, he said that the film is like a Rubik’s Cube – there are many permutations, but ultimately there’s only one complete and correct solution. But I think he was too close to the solution, because it’s so incredibly difficult to figure out the hidden meaning, that almost nobody seems to have accomplished this. And this is probably why he’s talking about reworking the film and re-releasing it some years down the line – I think he wanted more people to be able to see it the way he meant it.

So here’s the basic outline of what happened in the film, and what it means. It’s important to bear in mind that if any component of the film doesn’t fit with the interpretation, then the interpretation is wrong. And don’t be misled by the graphic novel – it’s a different version of the story and so it can’t help us figure out the film.

The story that Izzi wrote for Tommy, which she called ‘The Fountain,’ is a work of fiction that she came up with to send her obsessed husband a message about the ultimate futility of seeking immortality in this life. Tomas the Conquistador is how Izzi sees her valiant though single-minded husband. At the end of Chapter 11 of her book, we find Tomas the Conquistador about to be killed at the hands of the Mayan priest. If you study the frame by frame of the book you’ll see this to be true.

The present day story of Tommy and Izzi is ‘real,’ which, thankfully, few people dispute. But what really confuses a lot of people is the fact that at the very end of the film, we see a second version of events – in this version, Tommy goes after Izzi and catches up with her in the first snow. So naturally the question arises ‘which version -actually- happened?’ The answer is ‘both,’ which we’ll get back to shortly.

The future Tom is also ‘real,’ which most people seem to have big problems with, which is sad. Aronofsky mentioned in an interview that he discovered self-sustaining eco-spheres as part of some NASA program, and he based Tom’s ‘bubble ship’ on that idea. You have to ignore a lot of obvious facts to conclude that the future Tom in the space sphere isn’t real. You have to ignore the glaring fact that Tommy discovered an immortality drug while striving to save Izzi, and the fact that he told his boss and his co-workers that they were out to defeat death. And you have to ignore the rings on his arms which measure the chasm of centuries between Izzi’s death and Tom’s journey through space. And you’d also have to ignore the visual language of the film, which shows that the future scenes are ‘the present’ and the events in 2000ish are future Tom’s memories. So Tom in space is the immortal Tommy whose bittersweet conquest of death has actually prevented him from joining his beloved wife in death, a conundrum which torments him. Thus, his quest to the dying star Xibalba, so he can be reunited with his wife by dying at the nebula that she thought of as a metaphor for rebirth through death, ‘death as an act of creation.’

So all of that’s pretty clear, up until the last 15 minutes or so, when so many seemingly irreconcilable things happen in all three timelines that most people just get lost and frustrated, and settle for the first crappy explanation that comes to mind (which usually entails reducing the entire future timeline to a dream or metaphor…which doesn’t actually make any sense). But if we take the final scenes one at a time, they all actually converge on a fantastic and deeply satisfying, if fairly ‘far-out there,’ solution. That shouldn't put anyone off, though, because Aronofsky calls this film 'a psychedelic fairy tale.'

So the first real shocker, aside from Izzi’s ghost haunting Tom and generally being cryptic, happens when Tom finally accepts his own death and Izzi’s admonition to ‘finish it.’ Suddenly we’re back at the pivotal moment when Izzi asked Tommy out to the first snow – except this time, we see a moment of realization pass over his face, and he goes after her. Wtf, right? What just happened? Here’s what happened: The future Tom, whose consciousness is finally complete and enlightened, has sent a kind of message back in time, to himself, to correct the blunder of letting her go off on her own during the first snow. Enlightened Tom has created an alternate timeline, which closes the circle between the moment he screwed up and let Izzi go, and his death at Xibalba. Aronofsky is conveying a marvelous idea here that our consciousness is timeless, and he shows us the consequences of this in practice through this film. More proof of this comes in the subsequent scenes, which we’ll get to shortly.

Next we see future Tom break free of the bubble ship to be enclosed by his own mini-sphere, where he imagines the end of Izzi’s book, 'The Fountain.' The Chapter 12 he imagines reveals the divine aspect of Tomas (which is in fact his future, enlightened self) appearing to the Mayan priest, who then surrenders his life to this vision. The priest sees the divine in Tomas, even though Tomas can’t see it in himself. Regardless, Tomas the Conquistador fulfills his ultimate divine destiny to sacrifice himself to the cycle of life – it’s not the immortality he bargained for, but it’s precisely what the real enlightened Tom is up to in the future timeline, so their ends are the same even if their intents are different. Therefore, completing the circle of his destiny, Tom regains the ring he lost when he went astray by fearing the loss of Izzi, rather than embracing his love of his wife by joining her in the first snow. Reunited with his ring, death now reunites him with Izzi’s spirit. And as his ashes mix with Xibalba’s to flow over the Izzi tree, their deaths bring her tree back to life in a moment of foreshadowing, revealing that they will indeed both live together forever through the cycle of death/rebirth.

Then we get to see some more of the alternate timeline that Tom created through his enlightenment in the future. We see Izzi pick the seed and hand it to Tommy, and we see Tommy plant the seed over her grave. We see that this Tommy never lost his ring, because he never chose to work on Donovan rather than go traipsing in the first snow with Izzi. We see Tommy say goodbye to Izzi at her grave, because -this- Tommy has the benefit of the insight of his enlightened self in a future alternate reality, and we see Xibalba explode in the future, but from the vantage point of Izzi’s grave, because this Tommy never goes to Xibalba…he found his peace with Izzi’s death while on Earth.

Well, those are the broad strokes anyway. Not an easy puzzle to solve, by any means. But the idea that our future state of enlightened consciousness can retroactively alter our reality in the present…that just made all the puzzling worthwhile to me.

I hope you enjoyed my analysis, and that for some of you, it enriches your experience of the film.

"The observer is the observed." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

[–] BigguBossu 14 years ago

I'm a bit late, but I enjoyed this.

I recently re-watched this for the first time in years, and was in the "final scenes were in his mind" camp, but didn't think of seeing it as him creating an alternate timeline until now.

The screenplay seems to support it, I think

Having said that, I haven't read all the discussions here, but the one about the particular tree in the bubble, while DA didn't say it was the Guatemalan tree, he did deny in an interview that it was meant to be an incarnation of Izzy, while re-affirming that future Tom as real Tom is true, at least that's how it reads to me in these scans

http://jossingaround.kabeka.com/images/September06Scans/CS-Fountain5.j pg
http://jossingaround.kabeka.com/images/September06Scans/CS-Fountain6.j pg

[–] the-devil-boy 14 years ago

Thanks for contributing some interesting new material, solidussnake101. I have a ton of director and crew quotes & links that support the future scenes as “real” (as well as the “present” setting of the story), so I think that much is settled. I can post those for you if you’re interested, btw.

In my mind, that leads inexorably to the alternate timeline hypothesis. Because if the future timeline is real, and results from Tommy going left with Manny at the pivotal moment, then the scenes that happened when he chose to go after Izzi to the right, which also appear to be equally “real,” must be an alternate timeline. I don’t see any way around it. And you’re right, the script seems to indicate that this moment in the hall is the fork in the road (and thanks for posting those lines from the script, I’ve never seen a copy of it so that was new to me).

I think we have to be careful with this – note that the interviewer says that they agreed that the tree in the sphere wasn’t a “reincarnation” of Izzi. And since the interviewer failed to get a quote, we have to interpret second-hand what they meant by “reincarnation.”

Usually “reincarnation” refers to the idea in Hinduism that after someone dies they are reborn as someone else, or possibly as an animal or plant. And I’d agree that the tree isn’t a reincarnation of Izzi in that sense.

But what if the tree in the sphere is the tree that Tommy planted over Izzi’s casket (assuming of course that he did so in both timelines)? Would you call that a “reincarnation,” or simply an “incarnation”? If the tree to some extent “recycled” some of Izzi as it grew (which jibes with what DA was saying about the fountain-like cycle of life and death, as well as the Moses Morales story) would it be fair to call the tree a reincarnation of Izzi? That’s not the word I’d use in that case. That scenario is more like a partial incarnation, in the same way that a part of Moses Morales’ father got to fly when the seeds of the tree that he planted over his grave got eaten by a bird.

And the idea that the tree incorporated Izzi into itself to a limited extent would also explain why we see Izzi’s soapy thigh in the bough of the tree as Tom strokes it, and, why he’s always talking to the tree as if it’s Izzi herself, and also why his reaction to its death coincides with his reaction to Izzi’s death. In fact, the tree isn’t associated with anything –other- than Izzi, so it would make no sense if there were no connection to her.

It makes Much more sense to me than the idea that the tree in the sphere is the Guatemalan tree. Why would the hairs on that tree respond to Tom exactly as the hairs on Izzi’s neck did, and why would DA show us Izzi’s thigh in its bough, and why would Tom talk to it as if it were Izzi, and freak out about it dying exactly as he freaked out about Izzi dying, if the tree weren’t closely related to Izzi somehow?

If that tree *is* the Guatemalan tree, then all of those cues are not just pointless, but deliberating misleading. And that would just be inexcusable, imo.

[–] BigguBossu 14 years ago

For me (and I may be off), I personally see the similarities between Izzi and the tree as drawing parallels between Tommy's obsessions- his first obsession being to save Izzy from death, and the second with conquering death in general, mostly for himself. They also serve to help keep sparking Tommy's memories along once he allows himself to start remembering his life with her.

The tree in the future then, I see as acting as a sort of surrogate Izzi, and Tom at the point where he's so far beyond Izzi's death he's forgotten about her to a point (which is why he tells his visions of her to "leave him alone" and acts displeased or confused whenever he sees her in the bubbleship), and has become obsessed with keeping himself alive by trying to save the tree.

He'd been formerly obsessed with keeping Izzi alive, now that she's gone and mostly forgotten, he's obsessed with keeping the tree alive to keep himself from dying, one obsession traded for the other.

In other words, after losing his wife, he pretty much becomes Dr. Frankenstein.

I think that since the tree is dying, he feels it must mean that its effects were limited, and this is the reason he's both taking it to Xibalba to rejuvenate it as well as continually eating from it little by little, not just for food but to make sure its anti-aging properties continue to work to keep himself alive.

It also may be that giving the tree in his picturing of Izzi's book some of her characteristics as well is meant to reinforce that the tree he's taking to Xibalba is the same tree as the Guatemalan tree, though that's not quite a solid link.

[–] andromedastargazer 14 years ago

I always though that the seed that Izzi gave him was the seed of the guatemalan tree that is the same tree of life that he found in the past as a conqueror but failed to recognize that the tree was not meant to be drank in such a violent way.

This is what I wrote about it, every time I say three is the Guatemalan tree that is the tree of life as well, one at the same.

Izzy and Tom are the reincarnations of Adam and Eve. The first mother and Father (like in the Mayan myth). In the biblical text God placed both trees Knowledge and Life in Eden with the intention of giving this gifts to humanity when they were ready. Of course we all know that Adam and Eve disobeyed and took for the Knowledge tree, before their time so God hid the other three, but he didn't destroy it because he always wanted to give it to mankind again and of course the only fair way to do it is doing through Adam and Eve so they reincarnated in Tomas and Isabel and the tree found their way to them as soon as they are ready.

The ring symbolizes the completion of human destiny into achieving both knowledge and immortality but not in the way we think, the concept here is that by death they are going to be reborn. Most like Christ on the cross.

Sadly neither Isabel or Tomas are ready in their first lifetime. Tomas stabs the tree and drinks its blood instead of eating from its body or trying the fruit and that is way he becomes flowers and his soul disappears just before he put of the ring because the promise is not fulfilled, because he was not ready again. Then we can presume Queen Isabel died at the hands of the inquisitor.

Then "present" time Tommy and Izzy are reunited again (they are obviously soulmates), the tree this time around finds Tomas first through his work but again he still not ready (that is symbolized by him losing his ring right after he rejects Izzy invitation) on the other hand Izzy's disease makes her have her spiritual journey finding peace and security on death and searching for both science (the star) and religion (the Mayan myth) and starting to write the story of her past life that is also Tomas's even if she consciously doesn't know it, but she couldn't write the last chapter because when she heard the story of the tree planted on the grave she found her end, her new incarnation was on the tree itself so she was finished just ready to to and let Tommy a clue because she knew that he will join her when he was ready and he himself remembered how the story end (Isabel couldn't possibly know because she was on Spain so it makes sense he had to tell her), Tommy was still not ready so focused on his work and science instead of seeing the miracle of Donovan as a clue he dismissed it and falls into grief (look how much like Tomas he acts when he tried to kill the doctor), of course he understand at least part of the message and seeds the three of life into Izzi's grave.

Then the "future" Tomas "cures" death by feeding himself into the tree and makes his spiritual journey through meditation, fasting, yoga and Tai-Chi and solitude. He travels to Xibalba when he sees the tree dying because he has taken so much out of it that is probably too weak. The tree dies (Izzi's new body) is when he understands finally who he is, what happened in the pyramid and how he can truly live forever the mystery of life. His body is already feed with the tree so the tree lives in him so all he needs to do is infuse new life into it and he does it with the sacrifice of the first father, then he gets the ring back: the promise is fulfilled. And like Izzy told him the dying star will give new birth to other ones and both of them will be with every single creature created after it and all of them will be immortal now thanks to the sacrifice of the new father. New Adam and Eve. Isabel and Tomas forever together on the creation.

Anyway this are my two cents.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] emncaity 13 years ago

That is absolutely stunning; it certainly isn't "broad strokes," but sufficiently detailed and well-thought-out; and so far it's the best take I've seen (probably because I agree with it, so of course it's genius).

[–] the-devil-boy 13 years ago

Thanks emncaity, I like to think that your agreement is based on the way the facts come together in this interpretation, rather than some fairly chancy/subjective philosophical aesthetic appeal. So I'll stick with that )

One remaining thorn in my craw, though, is the bit where Tom reaches into the story and retrieves his wedding ring. I can't really account for that without resorting to some pretty smokelicious Eastern mystical notions (which, in my mind, calls the entire interpretation into question to some extent). However, no-one else has offered a rational explanation for that story detail either, so it appears that only an irrational explanation will fit the bill anyway.

If you find any explanation for that, or another appealing interpretation of the story overall, please stop back and let us know.

[–] emncaity 13 years ago

I'm gonna go back and watch the whole thing again with your reading in mind, and I'll take a look at that wedding ring business--but just from memory, I'm guessing it's probably a purely symbolic "thread-running-through-all" kinda thing, not to mention the symbolism of its circularity. But I'm gonna post back when I see this thing again.

I can't tell whether I'm right or completely wrong about the notion that the film needed about 4-1/2 hours to be really good. There's always the possibility that the extra length would lead to too much exposition and explanation, and that what lingering appeal there is with the film is that so little is explained as it stands now. On the other hand, if Aronofsky had something in mind other than beautiful imagery and the suggestion of various intersecting or integrated storylines, it'd be nice to know what that is, in the language of film itself (rather than from any interviews, etc., that he did about the film).

[–] GreyHunter 13 years ago

Well, if you and Drakenlord could reach a compromise -- I stopped reading the argument on page 2 because I kept hearing it in all-too-familiar arch and nasally grad student debate voices -- it entirely reasonable to see this entire movie as an alternate universe wherein the Inquisition actually did send Isabella into hiding (the Isabella of our world was a religious fanatic and, while very smart and capable, quite possibly insane) and Izzie's book was a novel actually based on vague accounts and legends of the time. There's literally no reason why the past scenes *can't* be real and can't be accurately portrayed in Izzie's book. In a universe where magic trees reverse aging and magic Wolverines fly billions of miles in a giant bubble, I've seen no legitimate reason to dismiss the possibility. Your initial post is relatively ingenious, and I can accept your interpretation with little reservation. But it's certainly amenable -- even if you might not be in certain cases -- to modification.

The point is, if the ring is, in fact, the very same, he might be able to effect a temporal transport not purely psychological in nature. Like the tree (or its bark) and the nebula, it provides a symbol for continuity and eternity that isn't necessarily purely metaphysical. Perhaps he can show himself to the Mayan priest, or influence his actions in the "present" because of these anchoring devices (when he reaches back to himself in the "present", per your theory, he's in a lab where the extract of the tree can be found, after all.)

Another (half-formed) alternative is that something in the nature of Xibalba itself, or his approach to death, is what allows him to cross time and space (since he would literally be doing both to reach either era on Earth.) He apparently couldn't do that before, and even when he can, he doesn't do something sensible like nudge his younger self to start experimenting with the tree immediately out of his doctoral program. It seems that his ability to influence the past is very weak in terms of any situation that affects his own personal timeline. He lost the ring in the present. He doesn't lose the ring in the alternate present but somehow no longer possesses it (iirc, he loses it after refusing to go play in the snow?) But, having read Izzie's story, he knows Tomas has the ring Isabella gave him, and knows where he is and what his straits are. So he goes to that place, the one place he can be certain of the location. It's like a time traveler searching for the Holy Grail -- the best bet isn't Arthur's court, or Indiana Jones' pantry, for that matter/ The way to find it is to go to a certain area of old Judea around A.D. 33 and....

[–] vedrana_a 13 years ago

I just don't believe that, sorry. There is only present and that's it. The movie is about his dealing with his wife's death.
When he got back to fetch her it is what he would do if he accepted her death sooner so he would never mind a lot about those experiments.

[–] the-devil-boy 13 years ago

A lot of people made that mistake after one viewing. But if you watch the film again, pay attention to the transitions from one scene to the next; it becomes clear the the "present" in the film is actually hundreds of years in the future, when Tom is in the spherical spaceship (which isn't a metaphor btw, it's a real ship - and I have a ton of quotes from Aronofsky and others to prove it if you care to see them).

Try to have a more open mind. If all truths were self-evident at first blush, people would never have thought that the Earth was flat, or that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Try this: instead of starting with the conclusion, try starting with a question first, then follow the facts to the reasonable conclusion.

It's more work, but you'll be wrong much less frequently, and people will respect you more.

[–] vedrana_a 13 years ago

I just like the more reasonable conclusion because it makes the movie better and not *beep* So if the spaceship is true than I think this movie shouldn't get so high grades, at least from me. Because it is just plain stupid, we don't learn anything from it, just that the guy is crazy and couldn't recover from her wife's death for centuries.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] the-devil-boy 13 years ago

There are a lot of reasons why I don’t think those past scenes are Tom’s wishful thinking. The whole film reaches it’s overwhelming orchestral crescendo precisely when (Major) Tom has a spiritual revelation and a sudden new acceptance of death, then goes into a state of transcendental mediation, and ultimately becomes some kind of eternal godhead (a ‘First Father,’ if you will) that creates universes through a spiritual union with his beloved Izzi. It would be all be a lot of falderal if that were only about a guy having a wishful daydream, don’t you think? Ask yourself: what happened at the end that merited such fanfare? I say that Tom changed the timeline because he had a “David-Bowman-like-transformation-of-consciousness.” You’re saying he “merely had a wishful thought.” It doesn’t add up.

But that’s just a purely interpretative argument. On the logic/evidence side of things, the “wishful thinking theory” doesn’t explain Tommy’s strange ‘moment of realization’ in the hallway talking to Manny, which is similar to his other ‘moment of realization’ in the scrub room when he has his premonition of Xibalba.

There are other logical inconsistencies as well: by the time we see Tommy2 at Izzi’s grave site we’ve seen Tom1 reduced to ashes at Xibalba, so why would he be wishfully thinking post-mortem? And right before we see Tommy2 at the grave site, he’s remembering Izzi handing him the seed pod. Then we see him standing at the grave alone. So, you’re saying that he was wishfully thinking that he was having a memory of Izzi handing him the seed pod, then he wishfully thought about standing at her grave alone with the seed pod and burying it. That’s some pretty convoluted wishful thinking. Most people’s wishful thinking is a lot more straight forward, I think, like wishfully thinking you were in bed together, holding hands in the snow, kissing, etc. I don’t think many widowers have wishful thoughts about weeping over their dead wife’s frozen grave and digging a hole in it using their bare hands.

Besides, I think it’s rather odd to assume that Tom had played it all over and over again in his mind’s eye for hundreds of years and light-years of travel, but only started to have wishful thoughts about doing things differently with Izzi as he gets incinerated by a nova. Doesn’t the whole “I’m a tortured soul being haunted by visions of my dead wife” scenario that the film begins with, imply that Tom already regrets spending his last days with his wife by cutting up monkey brains in the lab, instead of cherishing his last remaining moments with his dying wife before she was gone?

And finally, it’s pretty clear by the time the credits roll that the end of the film involved 1.) Tom being in a literal sense some kind of ‘First Father figure’ and 2.) the creation of a new universe, and 3.) the spirits Tommy and Izzi existing in the afterlife. In that context, I think it’s a mistake to assume that an alternate timeline is “too far out there” as a reasonable explanation of the altered past scenes.

I realize that a lot of people crave a simplistic explanation for this film (all kinds of “the future isn’t real,” “the past is real,” and “some time periods are symbolic/metaphorical/daydream” interpretations have surfaced on this board, in an attempt to reduce the complexities of this film to a simpler form). But this isn’t a simple film. Read some of Aronofsky interviews about The Fountain: he openly discusses how this film was inspired by The Matrix and 2001: A Space Odyssey to create a “psychedelic fairy tale” of his own, full of big ideas.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] alittleblue 13 years ago

After all these years, I finally got an account here just so I could discuss this movie. Thanks for this discussion thread. I first saw this movie about a week ago, and now I've seen it three times since. The conclusion I've come to is that Thomas-Isabel/Tommy-Izzy/MajorTom timelines all exist and are real, and that the Thomas2/Tommy2 timelines are also real. I think this movie may be an almost perfect melding or a fine-woven tapestry of ancient philosophies/major religious philosophies/Mayan myths/science/atheism.

My only criticism is that Izzi's character hasn't been developed fully. She isn't a full human in context. Rather, she's a dying version of the Manic-Pixie-Dream-Girl whose sole purpose is to demonstrate Tommy's growth, or lack thereof, as a character.

As for the ring, I'm not convinced that either Tommy or MajorTom had "the" ring. When we see Tommy remove his ring while prepping for surgery, it's too obscured by the soap bubbles to say if it is "the" ring, and it would be a stretch to assume that it is anyway. I also don't think MajorTom had "the" ring either. He is nearly godlike at this point, and after 500 hundred years of developing his godlike-ness, I think the ring in the tree bubble could likely be a very real projection - but still just a projection - of the ring Isabel gave Thomas.

I do have a couple of questions:

One is about the tree bubble when Isabel and Izzi appear to MajorTom. Why are their conversations so... stilted? Why is Isabel talking about freeing Spain from Bondage? Why doesn't she say something like - Will you free yourself from bondage?... or something? It's just so... heartbreakingly impersonal and cold. If Izzi's love pulled him through the ages, why isn't love mentioned here?

Also, what do you call the thing we see a couple of times in the movie - the fan-type object that Thomas sees at his altar? It's like a metal fan we see couple of different times, but it looks like the center crystal changes each time we see it. I can't tell quite what it is. Does it have an actual historical value of which I'm not aware?

Another is about a preview I saw on youtube ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96EbGxpu-wE ) for this movie where the years 1500, 2006, and 2500 are shown in bold font. Is this an official trailer? Are these dates supposed to be "official"? If yes, then the 1500 date bothers me because the real Queen Isabela of Castile would've been almost 50 years old at this point, and Isabel was nowhere near 50. I know that this is taking historical references literally, but still...

[–] xXLegendaryXx 13 years ago

I was deeply moved by this masterpiece of filmmaking, one can only appreciate it's depth through profound insights and analytical astuteness such as yours (and others) my heartfelt thanks to you for initiating this remarkable thread.

[–] xthe_shiznitx 13 years ago

LoL, if you were moved by this "masterpiece" then watch the episode of Futurama titled "The Late Philip J. Fry", it had similar plot points and drama and didn't take almost 2 boring hours to do it.

[–] the-devil-boy 13 years ago

It's a privilege to contribute to your enjoyment of this artful cinematic work, xXLegendaryXx. I wish I could recommend another film with such deeply complex and emotionally profound ideas and themes, but I'm pretty sure that there's never been another film with such lofty ambitions.

Maybe we'll get lucky, and before we shuffle off this mortal coil some other up-and-coming director will figure out how to "game the system" in Hollywood to produce another creative masterpiece that the average viewer will revile. I certainly hope so. I never realized how much I loved the power of cinema until this film challenged the limits of my mind.

[–] gbzro58 13 years ago

How could space bubble Tom change the past by making his past self never work on Donovan, if he never went into space in the first place?

[–] the-devil-boy 13 years ago

This question came up halfway down the first page of this thread:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0414993/board/nest/164940256?p=1

The objection you’re raising is commonly known in theoretical physics as “the grandfather paradox” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox) which simply put states that time travel to the past must be impossible because if you could travel backward in time, then you could kill your own grandfather and prevent your own conception.

However, the grandfather paradox makes certain basic assumptions regarding the nature of time that aren’t necessarily physical, and in at least one instance, appears to contradict the currently accepted model of spacetime: Einstein’s general theory of relativity. Here are some of the best theoretical concepts that challenge the grandfather paradox:

1.) Closed timelike curves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve): according to the topological model of spacetime described by the tensor equations of Einstein’s general theory of relativity, the dimension of time is analogous to a dimension of space, and both can be curved in the presence of a gravitating body. One such topology, the closed timelike curve, provides a pathway for an observer to follow a curving trajectory through spacetime that rejoins with the a starting point at an earlier point in time. Thus, a new iteration of the timeline proceeds from that moment forward, like Tommy opting out of the surgery on Donovan.

2.) Parallel universes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation): according to one popular (or at least, popularized) interpretation of quantum mechanics, the “many worlds interpretation,” there exists a complete universe for every possible permutation of quantum probabilistic function in the universe. So in one universe, Tommy went to the lab to work on Donovan. And in another equally “real” universe, Tommy went after Izzi into the snow. So in this case, it seems that we witness future Tom plant the thought in his own mind as Tommy to chase after Izzi, thereby creating a parallel universe where he accepted Izzi’s fate and properly cherished his last hours with her.

3.) Two time dimensions (http://www.physorg.com/news98468776.html): according to theoretical physicist Dr. Itzhak Bars, an additional dimension of time can help unify the current mathematical structures of general relativity with quantum mechanics, and lead us to a unified field theory (the Holy Grail of theoretical physics). With an additional dimension of time, time would no longer be linear; it would be planar. And just as a car can freely circle back on a planar surface to the same point in space, a traveler on a planar surface of time could circle back to a previous point in time, and causality would remain perfectly preserved. Interestingly, this idea has a mystical tradition dating back millennia, though I doubt Dr. Bars is aware of it.

[–] dovidovich 13 years ago

Fantastic analysis, it is much appreciated. Thoughtful contributions like these to assist perplexed film fans are what make IMDB worthwhile. Now let's get you to the David Lynch movie boards...

"I can outlearn you, I can outread you, I can outthink you, and I can outPHILOSOPHIZE you..."

[–] the-devil-boy 13 years ago

Thank you dovidovich, it's always good to hear a friendly voice in the wild and wooly expanse here at the IMDB.

I've seriously considered joining the discussions at the Mulholland Drive, and other David Lynch discussion boards. But I'm concerned that if I do, I shall disappear there forever - and I'm too young to become a haunted abstraction!

[–] dharmazombie42 13 years ago

Oh my goodness. I just saw the film tonight and jumped on here to compare thoughts on it and I was completely blown away by your analysis. I want to thank you so much. Reading that truely enriched the whole experience for me. I want to switch my major to writing next semester But honestly I am a little discouraged after all of this. How could I ever expect to write something as masterful as this film when I couldn't even understand it without your aid? I have some serious rethinking to do.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] the-devil-boy 12 years ago

You're the perfect example of why I created this thread, dharmazombie42 - to help others decode the very well-hidden and yet very moving secrets within this film.

Because it's an Extremely difficult puzzle to piece together...overly difficult, in my opinion. I've discussed this film with most of my smartest friends (one of whom is a screen writer) and *none* of them had figured it out. I took me several viewings and if I recall correctly, about 2-3 weeks of obsessing about it, before I put the pieces together. A film should not be that hard to figure out. So don't beat yourself up about it. Hopefully when you come up with a brilliant story of your own, it will convey an idea of the beauty and grandeur behind this film, but reach many more people.

If this film had been written better, just think of all the people it could've touched. But as it stands now, the real substance of the film eludes over 99% of the people who watch it. Perhaps you can do better, with time and practice ;

[–] heat_like_burning 12 years ago

Hey Devil Boy, you haven't been back here for a while but I wanted to say thanks for spelling out this interpretation for all too see.

I mostly agree, and I love the idea of trancendence. Just some things to add.

The Izzy Tree:

You talk about not liking the monologue, and your interpretation is that Tom is going to Xibalba to die. I disagree. Mostly because at that point of the movie, Tom has not yet accepted his eventual death. I think he either A: truly thinks Izzy will be reborn at Xibalba. the line you will be reborn refers to her spirit. The You Will Bloom line, refers either too Izzy herself as well, or the tree, which is dying. You have already covered the I Shall Live part.
Or B: He just wants the tree to keep living (its is dying after all) he already lost izzy once, he does not want to lose the izzy tree.

The Seed: You say that the scene where he plants the seed happens in both timelines...I don't nessesarily dissagree with this, but I offer up another interpretation to think about. He only planted it in the second timeline. But hoe did the izzy tree exist then? Simply it is another moment of trasncendence...Its seems like a weird analogy but remember Harry Potter and the prisoner of Azkaban when future Harry saves present harry by performing a Patronus, except that it hadn't happened yet? Its like that. We see earlier in the film when Tommy discovers the immortality elixir after looking up and seeing Xibalba (seeming 'remembering' his future) but how would he know this without it happening yet? Because he is trancending time (as you have pointed out)

Now I don't personally agree with this, its just another possible interpretation. I agree with yours because of one reason. It was a different seed. In timeline1 its obvious he planted a seed from the immortality tree on Izzy's grave. Whereas in timeline 2 he plants the seed that Izzy gave him. Perhaps it is the same type of seed but it seems a massive coincident that Izzy happens to pick THAT seed. Also i'm pretty sure I've seen those things before, and yet the immortality tree appears to be a rare tree that Tommy and Antonia discovered. The point of showing it is to show that Tommy still has his wedding ring, and also to show that the Izzy tree is in fact an izzy tree (i'm sure lots of veiwers did not see this until this scene)

I think each interpretation is logical, if confusing. One thing I do have to say, though I think time transcendence is a part of the film and the directors vision, I don't think its nessescary to make the story work. I also don't think that the future storyline needs to be real for the movie to work. I choose to believe that it is, because I think it makes a better movie, but the movie can make logical sense even if the future storyline is just a metaphor

The Ring: you have explained this well, but I would like to add that the reason he can get the ring from his imagination, he because he has finally accepted Izzys death and had he accepted izzy's death he never would have lost the ring. He is already changing his timeline right then. Its also possible that the ring is not real when he puts it one, but a metaphor for his acceptance of Izzy's death.

The Message: This is one thing I dissagree with you on. the message of the film. You say that you don't think that the message is "death is inevitable and ok and you should spend more time with your loved ones when they are dying" but I think it is. I think the Message is truly 'Death is the Road to Awe" and that immortality is pointless and unatural, at least in its literal form. My reasons? Well when Tom transcended time and changed his past, he changed only the fact that he did not spend enough time with izzy. he could have gone back and made his younger self inject Izzy with the cure before she dies, but he sees it is pointless, she was meant to die, and the only thing he needed to do was be with her, and love her. and in death she acheived true immortality thoughthe tree planted over body, and Tommy himnself when he died and his ashes mixed with the Izzy tree at Xibalba. Note how disinterested Izzy is at the news that Tommy may have found a cure.

While it is very sad to watch at the time, I don't think the fact that Izzy died just before the cure is found is supposed to be tragic, I think by the end of the film we are supposed to be ok with it.

Anyway that is all, just some extra pieces. I love your explanation, and I think this movie is a masterpeice, and perhaps more people would agree if they read this thread.
"When lightning strikes the sea, why don't all the fish die?"

[–] aXemeXa 10 years ago

Thanks OP, I just watched this film and your interpretation helped answer a few questions I had

[–] thebigmouth 13 years ago

I did, and it does. Thank you for posting.

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