A) The movies being defended are one thing, blind faith in any popstar and the idea she needs your defnse is quite another, quite ludicrous thing. Madonna could give two rats behinds what anyone thinks of her usually, and I admired her for that in the past. The fact is she has become rather like the older Hollywood starlets of bygone days, past their prime, who depend on their loyal followings to defend them when their luster is fading.
B) Sorry but your album sales totals are including her singles sales, which were not really the point but, since you brought it up--Celine, who most people profess to universally despise, at least to maintain that ephemeral "cred" they feel they have, if adding her Titanic windfall in, singles albums, and alltotaled together, totaled over 100 million units sold, the total I believe you thought Madonna sold in just albums. Read units in Billboard's fine print.
It totals recordings sold, not which types. It is only broken down under album sales. This was to boost radio stars in the public eye, since most of their music is still sold as singles--a once-again dying medium in its traditional form of actual physical product sold in a store or thru mail-order.
C) Celine, who you are dismissing as a vegas act for some reason, is fortunate to not have to tour, but to rather have a nearly stadium quality theater built just for her show. 100 million dollars after the overruns in construction and finsihwork. This for someone who Madonna is crushing due to her credibility??
D) silly assumptions and Self-delusions?? I am not at all, unlike you apparently, deluding myself about Madonna, her reputation of late, or her influence. She WAS influential in my era, when new0wave failed and punk fell into recovery or ridiculous excess. She put herself out there as someone who wanted to entertain, not bash with her political views, or her desperation to gain credibility in the mainstream. In this she was more punk than the punks, since she did not depend on heroin or bad hygiene for her credibility. She was who she was and that was great. Recently, after becoming a mother, Madonna has seemed to lose perspective and decided she should become a social force for change, as well as a serious actress. She has an entertaining voice, and some of her work is downright amazing and edgy still. However, that does not mean she is a quality actress no more than Nomar Garciaparra's batting and fielding makes himn a qualified candidate for conductor of the Boston Pops. The two are not mutually conclusive, success in one field does not nominate you for runaway status in another. She has hits and misses in her recording and record-label careers, and unfortunately for her she ran too often in the acting field before she could walk well. Unlike pop music, or music in general, street cred does not make you more successful as an acotr. Talent and effort combine, often AGAINST street rep, to show your chops off.
finally E)You didn;t know me, nor could you make the blanket statement I was slamming Madonna's fans, since I don;t slam my self, as I was one from the first album to present, but simply disagree with her recnt choices, and unfortunately her cred WAS a huge part of her career, whether you like to admit so or not. Taking offense because of points I made personally does not make the idea I SLAMMED all Madonna-fans any more legitimate. Trekkies makes a point about the mislabeling of fans, as their are those who obsess and are "fanatics", the derivative pf which is the term fan. The fan appreciates the work, artist creating the work, or the sum of the two. The fanatic obsesses over the work or artist itself, becomin fanatic in devotion, imagining atttacks on himself being part of anyone's criticism of his particular obsession. Learn the difference, and know that as someone who has been to Kentucky, the idea of you being cosmopolitan is not about where you are but what you are affecting as an image to the world. Cosmopolitan is not the chic thing to be, and those who embrace the concept, or its trappings, deny themselves the total experience of fanhood. Defending an artist blindly is no more credible than blindly attacking a particular artist blindly. I did neither. You did one. Guess what that means?
"There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything: Give him back something broken."
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Roythe13th
21 years ago
I'm not here to argue on a non-stop basis, so I am going to try to sum up everything I have to say in this post. I found many things in your posts to contradict things you said previously. Maybe it is just my perception, but others I have told to read this have made similar conclusions. I am going to try to focus on just a few points.
I do not blindly follow any artist. I am a huge fan of Madonna, but have not felt all her work is of equal quality. This thread is about someone saying "Swept Away" is the worst film ever made. I feel strongly that that title is a huge overstatement. I don't feel it is that bad. I have not been a huge fan of her acting career, but I feel it has grossly been critized. I strongly believe that what most people say about her acting is a reflection of their own personal feelings towards her as an entertainer in general. It doesn't matter what she does, she will never be taken seriously as an actress. She could give the best performance of any actress of all time, and she would still get torn down my people. This is a fact. That is why I wish she would just give it up in acting. But she won't because like you said, she doesn't care, and that makes me smile and admire her more. I defend her because I feel she is inaccurately portrayed by many people. It has nothing to do with blindly follow an entertainer. I never said that her status in music should mean she should be openly accepted in acting. Rather her music career and personal persona have been baggage that many people take with them when they see a movie she appears in. You have inaccurately put many words in my mouth in several areas of your posts.
As for Celine Dion, what would you call her current shows in Las Vegas? She is doing nearly one year of shows (maybe more, not sure) in Las Vegas in a large theater (not sure I would call it "stadium like") at Caesar's Palace. And although the theater was built for her, I am sure it will not be torn down after her shows end. It is an investment on Caesar's Palace's part. I dismiss it, as you say, because I don't see it as a tour in the usual sense. She is in one location appealing to a certain audience that comes to Vegas and probably can afford to see her multiple times while there. Although her tickets are similar to Madonna's concert ticket prices, Madonna tours for only a short amount of time and only a few times a week. Celine doesn't have to compete in the different markets and demographics across the country and the world. That is why I feel the gross for Celine concerts on a yearly basis would be skewed just by the sure volume. Madonna only played approximately 17 cities on her last tour, every city 2 nights with the exception of large cities like LA, NY and London.
As for album sales, I am not including single sales in with the album sales. I know of the fine print you speak of. For example, "Titanic" is not credited towards Celine's record sales, only for the single. The soundtrack only included one song of hers. As for Madonna, her sales do include "Evita' and Dick Tracy Soundtrack because she performed on all or most tracks. Her sales would be higher if included soundtracks that only featured one or two tracks such as "Vision Quest' or "Austin Powers". You have argued Diana Ross, Barbara Streisand, and Celine Dion as being higher than Madonna on level of success and we can argue sales figures all day from different sources, but Guinness does list Madonna as "Most Successful Female Artist of All Time" as late as their last publishing. You can look this up yourself.
You say that I am deluding myself when it comes to Madonna where you are not is an ludicrous statement. When it comes to her influence, reputation, and artist prespective, I don't understand why you feel your opinion is more valid than mine. They are both opinion. You said it yourself that you disagree with some of her recent choices. I have as well, but don't feel it has knocked her down a peg when it comes to relavance or influence. After 20 years, everything she does still makes headlines and is taken notice. Although her record sales are not like they were in the 80's, she still is held in highest respect and regard by the "TRL" crowd, who I am assuming is the group of artists and fans who are driving the current music industry. Her current album is not doing well in the US, but I feel it is for different reasons than quality and relevance and I will not comment about it here.
You have a strong opinion on this topic as do I, and this will never be settled. Opinions can never be settled and battling back and forth isn't going to solve anything. I still don't understand why you feel so strongly to post on the message board when you hated "Swept Away" and feel Madonna is past her prime. I can't put so much time and energy in something just to be negetive. The main reason I started posting on this thread was because I thought you were rude in tone to other posters and claimed they had self delusions and assumptions when you were guilty of the same thing (For example, The Beatles comment).
For the record and to bring this thread back on topic, I feel "Swept Away" is far from being the worst movie ever made. I don't think it is great, but better and more entertaining that it is ususally given credit for. I feel the biggest reason why so many people hate it is because how they feel about Madonna herself and that is filtered between themselves and what they see on the screen when Madonna is on it, including "Swept Away".
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jasondanyael
21 years ago
You are not going to convince me of your objectivity about this subject. You made assumptions and your own accusations, as well as injected yourself into a thread you were not a part of. Madonno83 came to another board to attack a poster because he posted his opinion of Madonna's latest movie. I explained my point of view in my last post, my second in answer to your random blitz on me, and you keep responding with the same arguments. Guinness has not held the status of Official ahything since the 70's. It missed the boat on several records because its own handlers were not there to observe, yet accepts other publishings findings to support its claims. Not exactly objective. Facts are not your strong suit, and Celine's theater is just that--her theater, built on a stadium budget. Far more than my own county levied a tax to pay for that will last years and the construction cost of our civic center was roughly half, and built in far longer of a period of time. I am NOT a Celine fan, but to hear you dismiss two of Madonna's personal heroes, as well as the only female artist to surpass her popularity in the past decade is rather surprising, so I felt the point needed to be made. WHY did I post on this board when I didn;t like the movie?? For the same reason that others post criticisms of work--because the work merits some critique. When the movie essentially focuses on two actors and sand for great stretches of time then the star of the movie--the more well-known and recognized person in a lead role--must take the heat for her performance contributing to the lackluster effort. Sometimes the failings of a movie are the director's responsibility, and I think his failings would chiefly lie in the area of being blinded by love, a common Hollywood failing--however one that was hoped a Brit-based auteur would avoid. As for the TRL crowd driving the current music industry?? I don;t agree. Recent charts show that while MTV features many of the hip-hop artists successful, along with a couple of the rap metal and of course Bubbly-pop singers, the reality that MTV itself only features TRL music on its main channel is leading to a backlash against artists featured on that program and on the main MTV program in general. MTV2 and VH1 are showing a far more accurate sampling of real sellers, and of course many girls are growing out of their TRL obsession, as will MTV now that BET's own countdown show is walloping it daily, with CMT's version closing the gap. Madonna's album sales are suffering from politics, which many artists don't understand are not nearly as apt to garner the respect they once did when featured in an artist's work or public life. I hope she finds a medium to find her way again, but I really could not stomach her rendition of American Pie, a truly serious examination of controversial life in its original incarnation, but mishandled by her producers and edited by her hand badly as well. For peace's sake, I hope this argument can end here, as well, since I responded simply due to your seeming blindsiding me on a post I made 10 days ago now.
"There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything: Give him back something broken."
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Roythe13th
21 years ago
You win. I cannot debate with someone who says facts are not my strong suit, but yet thinks his opinions are gospel. It is a no win situation. You should be a spin doctor for a politican. You would excel at it.
btw, for the record, if i injected into a thread that I was not a part of, you did as well. It is a free, open forum.
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