Was I the only one ticked off at the ending with McGwire blasting his 62nd homer of the year? The whole point of the movie was about two people working hard. Then we see a juiced ballplayer who just needed his daily dose of drugs. It was ironic that Maris was hated while he worked hard while McGwire was loved while he cheated. If any new edition of 61* comes out the ending should be changed.
shareMcGwire was quite popular at the time of his 70-homer season. But, I agree that revelations take away much of the ending of 61*.
shareTo the original poster you make a great point. I actually just finished watching 61* for like the 15th time and I felt moved after watching the ending to come and make the point about McGwire which you just made. I'm only 23 so I didnt get to see Maris play but if this movie is an accurate representation of the man which I understand it is it really upsets me that a fraud like McGwire would be put in the same movie as a hero. I wish they would release another version without McGwire in it and I hope that the commissioner of baseball reverts the record back to Maris.
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I do admit Mac has class, like a liar. If you look at pictures of him as a rookie Mac was a twig to normal (http://www.homeruncards.com/imagesrc/mcgwire87tp.jpg), not the giant of muscle he was. His testomony in front of congress was what convinced me.
But at least we all seem to agree Bonds is guilty and must go down. Thank goodness he was not in the movie.
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barry bonds is the second best ball player of all time.........behind willie mays.
shareIf Marc McGwire truly wanted to show respect for Roger Maris and his record, he would've played with blood, sweat and tears like Maris did, and not fraudulently obtain the record, which shows major disrespect to the memory of Roger Maris and disrespect to his family.
shareA little known point about Mark McGwire's record breaking season was that the rules on juicing were different. The substances today that players like Barry Bonds are getting blasted over were not banned when Mark broke the record.
shareI don't care what the rules in the MLB were/are. Steroids were/are ILLEGAL. I think the laws of our country should be remembered before someone says, "the rules on steroids were different then." Why can't someone just have the guts to say to all the players that juiced, you're not just cheating you're breaking the law.
shareAs far as I know Mark McGwire didn't take steroids. He used a human growth hormone which is different. HGH isn't illegal, it's just a banned substance in MLB now. It wasn't then. He didn't break any laws or rules.
share"He didn't break any laws or rules"
- or any records as far as im concerned.
"Is a hippopotamus a hippopotamus, or just a really cool Opotamus?"
And that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion but MLB sees it differently. I'd say the same about Barry Bonds but again, MLB sees it differently.
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BECAUSE--- Before the 2003 season there was no policy against juiceing in MLB
It wasn't illegal
The best thing McGuire, Clemmons and others is to own up to steroid use before
2003 when there was no policy against it
If the old timers knew they could get 20-30 ft more on a hit my taking roids
they would have used them
I'd rather go hunting with Dick Cheney, than driving with Ted Kennedy
I agree - it made me sick, watching the juiced McGwire at the end of a great tribute of a movie about guys who worked their butts of to excel without drugs. I too hope (in vain, of course, because in the grand scheme of things, this movie is not popular enough to rate a re-release) that the McGwire ending will be cut. Meanwhile, I'll just stop the movie before the end.
I must say that the Billy Crystal special feature is one of the best SF's that I've ever seen. What a great depiction of his love for baseball and the work that went into recreating the stadium, wardrobes, look and feel of the times!
I was going to add this same thought. Regardless of MLB's rules, it was still wrong. And regardless of the fact that "steroids were/are illegal", it's still CHEATING. There shouldn't need to be a rule that says "don't cheat", it should go without saying.
shareA little known point about Mark McGwire's record breaking season was that the rules on juicing were different. The substances today that players like Barry Bonds are getting blasted over were not banned when Mark broke the record.Non-medical steroid use was illegal then, even if not specifically banned by MLB, just as hosting dogfights and killing the losers is not specifically banned by the NFL.
I am really getting tired of hearing all this crying about steroid use! Just because someone has the muscle does not mean that he can hit a ball! It takes skill to hit a ball that is coming at 90-98 mph! At that speed you have about 2-3 seconds if that to decide to swing or not! Take most of your muscle bound freaks nowadays say we take a bunch of hopheads from the wwe and put a bat in their hands. And put a top rated fastball pitcher on the mound across from them. How many home runs do you think they can produce?? I do not backup any player that uses steroids I believe it's wrong but it takes a little something more to be a record breaker.
shareActually, a batter has considerably less time than two-three seconds to decide whether to swing the bat. In fact, he has less than one second. Otherwise, good luck with your argument in support of a claim that is not in contention.
When you get sued for sounding like yourself, you get a little paranoid. - John Fogerty
Actually it has been proven that HGH improves eye sight :) and this is coming from a Giants fan that cheered everytime he saw Barry hit a homer... and I couldn't be more glad that he's gone.
While the problem it centered around the record breakers we all know the problem is much bigger than them... but we all know this argument would go no where and just get everyone worked up. So with that said
..I really think that McGwire and Sosa thing could have been left out. It really does leave a bad taste in my mouth. While I could see the importance of having it in there, I would have liked it no less if they could have stayed in the same era.
I think it was used though to balance how sour Ruth's wife was on the issue compared to Maris's wife at the end.
I found this in the $5 bin at Wal Mart. I caught part of it on TV some years ago and liked what I'd seen, so I picked it up. Great movie! The DVD extras describing production and Billy Crystal's commentary are worth having.
I would have left the "bookends" (McGwire at the beginning and end) out, I think. The taint of alleged steroids, the juiced ball theory, Sosa's corked bat incident, the glitzy "media event" after McGwire hit #62...they backfire more than succeed in my opinion. I really enjoyed being in that simpler time and didn't want to return to the present.
History will tell whether Crystal's decision to include them was a good idea or not.
The whole point of showing McGwire is to provide a point of reference to kids who only know the McGwire-Sosa-Bonds HR seasons. If anything, it shows just how much greater and more dramatic 1961 was and how much more difficult it was for Maris than it was for McGwire. It was in no way taking away from the achievment of Maris. It was showing the utmost respect for it.
shareWhat I keep reading is that everyone would have liked the beginning and end of this movie left out. But the thing is, McGuire was a baseball hero still in 2001. Steriods weren't being discussed, baseball was as popular as it has been in years, and the ending was looked at very differently in 2001. It wasn't until Conseco's book in 2005 that the real issue came to light. So the ending was made before all of this McGuire and Sosa hate.
When the hero becomes the villian....who becames the hero?
The McGuire ending should still be in, because the unspoken knowledge of his steroid deeds makes the ending far more poignant.
How do you like that piece of satire?
"I am really getting tired of hearing all this crying about steroid use! Just because someone has the muscle does not mean that he can hit a ball! It takes skill to hit a ball that is coming at 90-98 mph!"
If steroids don't really help a baseball player hit it harder and longer, why did MLB home run counts go up by more than 60% overall in the steroid era?
It helps, and it's cheating. Obtaining and using drugs without a doctor prescribing is illegal. And Bonds, McGwire and the others put up numbers that would not have happened without the aid of these substances. They cheated, plain and simple.
"I think that boy's cheese slid off his cracker" The Green Mile
I agree that in light of what we know now, the bookend scenes of the film become diminished but in fairness, the film was made in 2001 at a time when no one was questioning 98, and Crystal felt this was the proper way to bookend the film rather than open with Maris's funeral in 1985 which was the other bookend he was considering. I have to admit, it is a dramatically effective moment when Pat Maris watches McGwire connect for #62 but then it dissolves to Roger catching a flyball at Yankee Stadium.
shareWhat makes you think that McGuire didn't play with blood, sweat, and tears? Yes, he did use steroids, or andro, or whatever it was, and therefore should be removed from the record books. But that doesn't mean he wasn't giving it everything he had. Doing steroids doesn't mean that you can just sit back in your lounge chair while at bat and swing the bat while reading a book. Steroid users mostly work just as hard, and sometimes harder, than non-steroid users. But, it is illegal, and against baseball rules, so he should be rejected.
shareAlthough McGwire broke the home run record under suspicion of using a performance enhancer, you cant deny that the 1998 season brought as much excitement to baseball as the 1961 season did. I still see 61 as the all time single season home run record, but any views of PEDs were quieted by the amazing race between Sosa and McGwire. I live in Chicago and am a STL fan, and Im not saying what they did was right or wrong. All Im saying is that the scenes were put in there for the excitement. McGwire still had respect for the game and for his manager, teammates, and even Maris' family. He wasnt trying to show anyone up when he went over and hugged Maris' kids. He was showing the respect he had for the record and for the game, even if he did steroids.
What about Alex Rodriguez now? He got caught, admitted it, and now you still see writers saying he still belongs in the Hall of Fame? But one of the best pitchers in the game over a 20 year career wont get in now? Its been a dark decade of the 90s thru mid 2000s for baseball, but their testing is getting better and the game is still as exciting as it always has been.
I LOVE baseball and was shocked by how much I enjoyed this film. I have never been a big fan of the Yankees but I have always loved Roger Maris. Kudos to Billy Crystal for a truly loving work of art.
What impressed me the most was the camraderie between Maris and Mantle, the power of the sportswriters during that season, and the portrayal of Maris as a family man. Those moments with his wife were indelible to me. It was extremely touching.
The only moment, the absolute only moment that I actually teared up and lost it was the end, watching McGuire hit the 62nd homerun (I came into the film maybe 20 minutes in). Yes, I understand why it was important and why it was in the film. But nonetheless, my anger and fury towards both McGuire and Sosa was almost a palpable thing in my living room. I don't care that he "held Maris' bat in his heart" or watching him choke up during the press conference. I did take full solace knowing that Marc McGuire or Sammy Sosa will never get into the Hall of Fame, that they will be booed and heckled for the rest of their lives (just like they threw syringes at Bonds), and hated outside their respective cities (Chicago and St. Louis).
To quote a fan who unfurled a banner at Shea Stadium during a game with the Giants: "Even the Babe did it on hot dogs and beer."
everyone keeps talking about steroids, but Mark Mcguire never took them. He took human growth hormone. Someone has already said this numerous times yet still people are saying, "oh well steroids are/were illegal even if they weren't banned specifically buy the MLB." No bra, steroids were/are illegal in the MLB, but HGH was not. HGH is not a steroid. HGH is naturally occuring in the human body.HGH does exactly what it's name implies, it's a hormone that induces growth IF the conditions are right.
Most don't understand that even while on steroids even, you have to put the work in. There is no majic pill or shot that can make you jacked without doing nothing. I'm not condoning what he did or any other athlete caught "juicing" but I don't see what the problem is if what he did was legal and there was nothing in the rules banning it.
At the end of the day Mark Mcguire was an athlete. He got paid to be the best. Being in good shape was his job and he just took every legal advantage he could get to stay competitive. Just like you or I would to get promoted in our jobs. Alot are saying he had an unfair advantage, but he didn't. The same oppurtunities were availible to everyone. Just like people say Maris had an unfair advantage because the season was longer than babe's.
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No matter how you feel about Mark Mcguire, it was his chasing down the elusive 62nd homer that propelled Roger Maris' story into the headlines again. There was a whole generation of fans that never even heard or cared about Roger Maris. The publicity of the record being broken brought a lot of deserved recognition for Maris in my opinion. Indeed, 61* probably wouldn't even had been made if it weren't for Mark McGuire. Like it or not, he broke the record and it is of historical significance in the movie. Besides, if you want to get down on a player in this home run/steroid drama, make it Barry Bonds. At least McGuire acted like a decent hero. Barry Bonds was born an a**hole of the first order and only got bigger.
shareBilly really should edit the movie and find a way to cut the McGwire stuff out of the film. Seriously, the commissioner should put the * back next to Maris' name this time as an honor. He's still the REAL single season champion.
shareA few points:
Players in the 1960's used performance enhancing drugs like "Bennies" (Benzadrine) to get an edge, especially for days games that followed night games.
And Dock Ellis threw a no-hitter while under the influence of LSD, so it wasn't like players in the 1960's weren't using any PED's to get an edge.
They did.
Next point, it wasn't only batter using PED's (performance enhancing drugs) in the late 1990's and early 2000's - the Pitchers were also using HGH and other drugs to obtain/maintain an advantage over batters, so in a sense, it evened things out.
Mark McGuire hit 49 HR's his rookie year back in 1987 or so. (Going by memory) So him bulking up and getting stronger and learning more about the game and topping that seasonal total is not out of the realm, plus he had the competition with Sosa, who was right behind him most of the season, pushing him to play at a higher level, much like Magic/Bird in the 1980's.
As for Barry Bonds, he hit a career high 46 HR's in 1993, his first season with SF in arguably the worst hitters park in the league, Candlestick Park.
What made Candlestick so bad?
Candlestick was a multi-purpose Stadium, so the foul space was huge.
A lot of foul balls that end up as in the stands as strikes in most places ended up as outs in the huge foul grounds at Candlestick Park.
Then there was the weather.
Candlestick is a miserable place to watch or play baseball.
It's almost always cold, windy, and foggy, even in the Summer months.
Perhaps even more so during the Summer months.
Despite the fact that statistically, Candlestick was one of the least Home Run friendly ball parks, Bonds managed to hit 40+ HR's there in several seasons, including the 46 he hit in 1993 when he was still a "skinny" kid.
When the Giants moved to their new ballpark 7 seasons later, Bonds hit 47 HR's, but wasn't named NL MVP
The league MVP was his teammate and #4 batter, Jeff Kent.
The following season, with Bonds having the reigning NL MVP hitting behind him, Pitchers had to pitch to Bonds.
The combination of the Giants moving to a more hitter friendly park and having the protection of the reigning NL MVP hitting behind him, Bonds cranked out 73 HR's that season.
As an encore, Bonds hit .370 the following year with 46 HR's.
This despite being walked a record 198 times that season.
Two seasons later, Bonds would be walked a staggering 232 times and still hit 45 HR's in just 373 official AB's. (1 HR per 8.3 at bats)
IMO, the 73 HR season was a combination of Bonds going to a much better, more hitter-friendly ballpark and also having the NL MVP hitting behind him made for a perfect combination which Bonds took advantage of.
Instead of batting in cold, damp, windy, cavernous, empty Candlestick Park, he was now playing half of his games in one of the best ballparks in the country, with the league's reigning best player batting behind him, and a park filled to capacity every game with a full house cheering him on.
They were the perfect conditions for Bonds.
The difference between the two ballparks is day and night.
If I remember correctly, Maris had Mantle hitting after him, and Mantle finished 2nd in the AL MVP voting the year before, so Maris and Bonds both had the luxury of having one of the best hitters in the game batting behind them.
Both also had to deal with a lot of pressure from the press and from the fans.
And Maris, like Bonds, never came close to matching their career high numbers for HR's in a season.
Not counting their record-breaking seasons, Maris' most HR's for a season was 39, while Bonds' most HR's in a season was 47
Some final thoughts: Players of today have a lot more advantages over players of previous eras - instant access to video of opposing pitchers, computerized breakdowns of stats, tendencies, what pitch a pitcher will throw on a certain count, what ballparks are "hot" and under what conditions, etc...
They also have the benefit of chartered, 1st class travel and accommodations, in addition to much better knowledge of nutrition and training.
Also, not many people outside of SF or who isn't a Giants fan realizes the amount of hard work Bonds put in to achieve that record, or the immense pressure and media scrutiny he had to deal with.
Bonds didn't just pop a few pills and hit 73 HR's - it was a hard core training regimen he underwent and took on as a challenge after McGwire broke the record a few years before.
Maris, also had to deal with the media, but that was before 24 hour cable sports stations, internet, internet rumors, gossip, innuendo, etc...
And, IMO, Babe Ruth wouldn't make a MLB roster in this day and age for numerous reasons, not even as a DH in the AL, but that's a different discussion for another time.
I have no problem with the movie remaining as it is. Knowing he used steroids simply adds a new ironic twist, and only reinforces my appreciation for the work players like Mantle and Maris put into the game.
sharePlayers in the 1960's used performance enhancing drugs like "Bennies" (Benzadrine) to get an edge, especially for days games that followed night games.I admire your conviction. Not many people defend Barry Bonds nowadays. And I don't disagree much with anything you say,* with the exception of Ruth not making a roster. Quality left-handed pitchers are always in demand. But that's another discussion, as you say. And I would like to make a couple of points otherwise.
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Also, not many people outside of SF or who isn't a Giants fan realizes the amount of hard work Bonds put in to achieve that record, or the immense pressure and media scrutiny he had to deal with.
Bonds didn't just pop a few pills and hit 73 HR's - it was a hard core training regimen he underwent and took on as a challenge after McGwire broke the record a few years before.
Move along. Nothing to see here.share
Benzadrine is NOT a performance enhancing drug.
It's obvious that Maris, Ruth, Ted Williams and Mantle never did any performance enhancing drugs. So, if other contemporaries did or if pitchers did then it makes their feats even more legendary.
Dock Ellis describing his LSD experience while pitching the no-hitter against the Padres is actually pretty god damn funny.
I don't think it's true, but it's certainly legendary.
Read it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock_Ellis
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv_TA2S2z34
There was NEVER an asterisk next to Maris' name in the record books. Neither the commissioner or MLB put an asterisk next to his name. Some sportswriters suggested it and the myth has endured for years by people who do not know baseball.
Help stamp out and do away with superfluous redundancy
I guess I have to put my $.02 in.
The records for baseball may need to be put in different catagories. Babe Ruth's record of 60 homers came after baseball saw that fans liked homeruns and moved away from the "Dead Ball Era."
In this movie, Barry Pepper says the game had changed, that there was more teams, on both coasts, more games. Would Ruth have hit 60 in that era? Would the media protect him, as it did in the 20's? His exploits would have made Mantle's off the field antic's fade in comparison.
By the time the McGwire era came about, there was even more teams to dilute talent. The players have to travel constantly about the country. Media today can't wait to find a scandle, and its not likely any players wouls enjoy any kind of protection previous players enjoyed. Baseball itself has changed. How often does a pitcher throw a full 9 inning game? Now, specialty pitchers are brought in to pitch to individual batters. With the game on the line, a power pitchers are brought in, fully rested, to face the batter. How would Ruth or Maris fair against this? Of course, on the other side of the coin, players now have access to advanced medicine, and conditioning that no one could have forseen in the 20's or 60's.
Steroids and HGH have cast a taint over modern records. Arguements for both sides have waged, do wage, and will continue to wage for years to come. Unfortunately, we will never know how many HR's McGwire or Bonds would have hit if they never took anything.
Perhaps we do need different records for each era to be kept.
Then again, its still baseball, so maybe not.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
In 2001, McGwire was still a hero, and his pursuit of the home run title in 1998 helped people remember Roger Maris' 1961 season. It made some sense for Billy Crystal to include that scene at the end.
Looking at the end of the film NOW, it looks real disappointing, because now we see a disgraced Mark McGwire hitting the homer that broke Maris' record.
But there is ANOTHER way to look at it:
For people watching the film for the first time, when they see that scene from now on, ALL THE MORE THEY WILL REALLY RESPECT ROGER MARIS, because they will note how Maris did it WITHOUT steroids, performance-enhancing drugs, muscle growers, etc.
And remember the narration in the end, about how Maris died before the asterisk was removed, and so he never got to know "how... the record... was HIS."
So that end line can almost be taken also as a dig at the steroid users who broke his 1961 record!
And Maris will still come out truly as a hero!
I love this movie but I always fast forward through the parts of McJuicer hitting his roided up 62nd home run. I am certainly not criticizing Crystal. At the time he made this movie we didn't know that McJuicer cheated to break Maris' record. But now that we do, I hope Crystal deletes the McJuicer scenes and re-releases it.
Oh and one more thing. To all of you morons who use the "steroids are not prohibited by major league baseball rules and therefore it's ok for players to use them" argument, you really need to get a grip on reality. Did you know that there is no MLB rule which prohibits a player from murdering the umpire? I scoured the rules top to bottom and nowhere does it say that a player can't break the first baseman's legs. Or stab the pitcher in the arm. So therefore it's ok for players to do these things and they will not be punished for them. Right?
I absolutely love this post.
Yeah, I think a lot of the appeal of a film like this is that it goes back to a time when at least some players (certainly not all, but more than today) held themselves to a standard of fair play and hard-but-fair competition that was bigger than the rules -- that didn't leave it to the rules to spell out absolutely everything about what fair and honorable play was -- and that didn't use gaps in the rules as excuses. There are still players who do it, but the professional sports culture (and the sports culture that feeds it, going all the way down to Little League, Pop Warner, junior competitions in golf and tennis, etc.) has turned winning into a commodity for consumption, which has about the same effect as turning sex into a commodity; it strips it of the context that makes it valuable, worthwhile, and fulfilling.
That's the thing about sports, IMHO. There isn't actually any intrinsic value in crossing a plate more times than your opponent, or making more baskets, or shooting a lower score in golf, or making it into the end zone more times. The value is in the competition, in drawing the best performances out of each other, in who you are when you compete. Once that's gone, well...you juice. Or you find something that's not a technical violation of the rules (comparable to, for instance, murdering the umpire, which is allowable, as you say), and you do that. You don't make it about your own practice and technique and diligence.
Even now, you have people on ESPN and elsewhere who talk about guys like Bonds and A-Rod like "Well, I know they used PEDs, but still...." "But still" nothing. That's the end of the discussion. Whatever you could've done can never be known now, so you've ended your own relevance. It doesn't matter what you did or didn't do at that point. It's over.
At the time of this movie's release, McGwire was not yet considered an enemy. People knew that he (and many others) were using steroids, but no one really cared until afterwards. And as others have stated, his HR chase is what brought interest in Maris, which brought interest in this movie.
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