Major Plot Hole - Memento (2001) Discussion

[–] mad_weather 10 years ago

What Leonard wants is an inner peace. While he is consumed by his hunt, he believes that success will bring him closure he desires, not thinking about implications. It's true that once he kills John G, his life becomes meaningless, but as far as it goes, he doesn't realize this. In fact, it *already* happened once - he killed the real John G but soon his drive made him long for hunt once again.

What you describe is not a plot hole but a plot essence, the very dramatic point it revolves around.

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[–] nrkist2424 10 years ago

No, it's a Plot Hole and a problem of Character Motivation.

When he kills John G. he immediately kills himself thereafter.

Like, the film is aware of this in the Natalie/Diner scene. I guess it's kinda winky and she's calling Leonard out, but it still doesn't make sense. When he kills John G. he obviously kills himself immediately after...but he tells Natalie that he'll take a picture so he 'remembers'. What?! For what purpose?

That scene makes me laugh so much, and I'm unsure if it's supposed to be an insight into Lenny, or just a poorly written scene revealing a huge plot hole.

It doesn't work on either level.

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[–] the-author 10 years ago

That is one of the dumbest things about Memento I have heard.
There is absolutely no reason why he would need or want to kill himself.
The picture of dead Teddy/John g is a memento.
How did you not get that?
He knows his memory is crap, so a picture will always show him that he finally killed the real John G.
You got lost on one of the most insightful scenes in the whole film.

Best unknown feature at IMDB.com
http://www.imdb.com/features/video/browse/

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[–] mad_weather 10 years ago

When he kills John G. he immediately kills himself thereafter

Correction: When he kills John G. he *would* have to kill himself if he were you. But he's not, and, in the movie (contrary to your imagination), he doesn't. The fact that you don't get what his Character Motivation is doesn't mean that it's a plothole, it just means you don't get it.

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[–] nrkist2424 10 years ago

Well, explain it to me then :).

I was mocking the fact that his character LACKS a motivation.

It's a plot hole.

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[–] mad_weather 10 years ago

I already did, but you ignored it.

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[–] nrkist2424 10 years ago

No, you said my reasoning was flawed because that's what 'I would do' in that situation.

I explained why Lenny would immediately kill himself after killing John G. I explained it within the reality of the story, and from a framing stand-point as to the character motivation.

You said, "nuh-uh".

It's a plot hole. It's glaring on several levels.

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[–] mad_weather 10 years ago

Once again:

What Leonard wants is an inner peace. While he is consumed by his hunt, he believes that success will bring him closure he desires, not thinking about implications. It's true that once he kills John G, his life becomes meaningless, but as far as it goes, he doesn't realize this. In fact, it *already* happened once - he killed the real John G but soon his drive made him long for hunt once again.

(to which you said, "nuh-uh" and kept going about committing suicide. Sore topic, eh? )

When he says he will make a photo to remember, he *believes* that it is what he needs to make feel whole again. He's wrong, but he doesn't consciously realize it. When he actually did it for the first time, he somehow reverted to the regular hunt mode soon. From Teddy's exposition we can't know exactly how it happened - did he simply forgot he succeeded already, or actively tampered with evidence to make sure he won't accidentally bump into truth, and what was Teddy/Lenny initiative ratio in that tampering. Similarly, we can't know what will happen after he has Teddy's "John G." photo to remember. You think that he would probably kill himself after that - well you're entitled to your opinion, but it is in no way a settled truth. The very fact that he *does* make that photo tells us that he doesn't consider suicide right now (though he might get depressive some time later, beyond the frame of the movie). There's an opinion (actively promoted by sdckapr) that he would actually *destroy* the picture to allow himself another take at the endless hunt. Which is also not a settled truth, but has its own merits. If we take into account data from the http://www.otnemem.com site (which is sort of official page of the movie), the picture was simply forgot or left in a motel room, and the police has clues pointing at Lenny. Which means that whether he tries to live with his new circumstances or try to hunt again, he will be probably caught sooner or later and placed back into the institution, where the suicide will be no longer an available option any way.

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[–] alexcregan1998 10 years ago

Thanks for humiliating that fool. You deserve to be congratulated.
He abandoned this post and never replied once he couldn't think of a response.

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[–] avortac 9 years ago

"When he actually did it for the first time, he somehow reverted to the regular hunt mode soon. From Teddy's exposition we can't know exactly how it happened - did he simply forgot he succeeded already, or actively tampered with evidence to make sure he won't accidentally bump into truth, and what was Teddy/Lenny initiative ratio in that tampering."

Well, according to the movie, we can know pretty much how it happened.

1) Lenny killed the "John G". Teddy took a photo, Lenny was really happy and pointed at his chest, thinking of getting a tattoo there, and finally also finding inner peace (symbolic gesture as well, because heart is on the left side of the chest).

2) Lenny, however, forgot it all.

3) Lenny woke up, not knowing that he has already killed John G. Teddy showed him the photo, the evidence, explained the whole thing, but Lenny was no longer happy or satisfied. He felt like now he's just a worthless memory patient instead of a human with a meaningful life and a purpose.

4) Lenny solves this problem by tampering with the evidence and asks Teddy to help him on creating a puzzle that he can never solve, so they can always move from town to town, killing "John G"s, so that Lenny can continue having a purpose.

5) Teddy accepts, because he feels sorry for Lenny. As the time passes, and "John G"s are killed, Teddy starts becoming a bit annoyed with this irritating guy who never even remembers him, let alone appreciates his help, hard work, friendship, or pity. Familiarity breeds contempt.. so Teddy starts amusing himself by toying with Lenny and his funny 'handicap', looking to see what kind of fun tricks he could pull off.

After all, he doesn't have that fun a life now that he has to constantly nurse and guide this crazy killer dude. He has to be on call all the time, and doing all this unlawful staff grows weary. Suddenly Lenny doesn't seem such a sympathetic guy anymore - he just looks like a curious, pathetic freak with one-track mind and the same boring story to tell all the time, however altered by passage of time.

Teddy doesn't need to "tamper" with anything, Lenny did it all by himself, so he can have a purpose. Teddy is fed up with the guy, but sometimes feels a bit pity and perhaps a bit guilt for all the pranks he has pulled on him, so he tries to at least keep him safe. Teddy does see the opportunities to make a lot of money off of this crazy memory-guy's obsession - and seizes the opportunity to do so. After all, the guy owes him so much for all his help - and Lenny never rewards Teddy's help otherwise.

(He even says it out loud, that he has been in more rewarding relationships, if memory serves (no pun intended))

This is what I gather the movie is saying, more or less - I filled in some details, I concluded some things that weren't explained that well, and some things are only hinted at, but basically, I'd say that's the jist of it.

So, from Teddy's exposition, we can know PRETTY ACCURATELY what happened, and how it happened.

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[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

While we can be reasonably sure about items 1 and 2, the rest is mostly speculation. We *don't* know whose idea it was to tamper with the evidence, we *don't* know whether any other Johns G.were killed, we *don't* know whether Teddy was on call all this year. All we know is Teddy's account on things, and Teddy is biased and wouldn't imagine himself as an evil guy. Neither would Lenny, of course. Both have some reprehensible things under their belts and both have reasons to interpret the past in favorable way for their respective egos. You can take a possible thread of events that looks most probable to you and accept it for what really happened, but it's in no way solid.

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[–] andyd-1 9 years ago

Leonard's motivation is ambiguous of course, you're supposed to wonder if the motivation seemingly given is true, or something else.

He might be a type of psychopath and has conditioned himself to know that he enjoys killing. Without a memory, he can also avoid having a long lasting conscience, and he can sub consciously pre-invent a justification for killing. Teddy however tells Leonard that he is not a serial killer, he tells him that he was simply unable to remember killing the 'real' John G, Teddy seems to be not understanding the purpose of the 'quest'.

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[–] nrkist2424 9 years ago

Thanks for resurrecting.

I thought about this some more, and my OP (thread lead) stands.

Lenny has not only killed John G, but many John G's as Teddy reveals.

He has never taken a picture of this evidence, or if he has, he has destroyed it.

I would recant that his motivation 'makes no sense' in this light. It simply makes no sense in the casting of him as the protagonist. He is not sympathetic. He is intentionally murdering unrelated people to satisfy his own rage.

That's why the gun never went in his mouth after he killed John G, or any John G's thereafter. That's why he never took a photo to document the evidence for himself. He simply wants to sate his rage, and even though he forgets, and follows his own machinations, when it comes to the end, he CHOOSES the rage part. He chooses to deceive himself and setup another John G to take his rage out on.

Lenny is a villain, but it's not a plot hole, and the character motivation isn't immediately apparent unless you accept my observations.

But, he was indeed being called out in the diner scene, and he did indeed knowingly lie when he said "I guess I'd take a picture, so I'd remember". We know this isn't his inclination, because he's never done it previously. Lenny KNOWS he's a liar, and Teddy definitely knows this has nothing to do with revenge.

Lenny's just an angry man that wants to hurt someone to sate his own rage. His disability makes him appear to be sympathetic, but this is the only conclusion one can come to at the end.

Lenny is full of *beep*

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[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

Lenny has not only killed John G, but many John G's as Teddy reveals.

He never states such a thing. He says that he set up *Jimmy* because he "wanted to see that face again" (and "make a few dollars on the side" while doing it :D ), but not that anybody else save the real John G. was killed.

That's why he never took a photo to document the evidence for himself.

Eh? He makes a picture of John G. but it ended in Teddy's pocket. He makes a picture of Jimmy, although destroys it to not stand in the way of hunting Teddy. And he makes a picture of Teddy himself. He *did* "choose the rage part" when facing Teddy's machinations, but not anywhere else.

But, he was indeed being called out in the diner scene, and he did indeed knowingly lie when he said "I guess I'd take a picture, so I'd remember". We know this isn't his inclination, because he's never done it previously.

"We" know? You keep projecting on Lenny ideas that are your own.

Lenny KNOWS he's a liar, and Teddy definitely knows this has nothing to do with revenge.

On the contrary. Teddy says it outright: "You're not a killer. That's why you're so good at it".

Lenny's just an angry man that wants to hurt someone to sate his own rage.

Why didn't he kill Dodd, then? Teddy suggests that he might be another John G., and at this point Lenny doesn't remember he's *not* one, so he has a perfect opportunity.

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[–] robertgraves14592 10 years ago

There might not even be a John G. Maybe Lenny tried to kill his wife. They say she survived. Plus she's in bed with Lenny looking at his tattoos on his chest -- John G raped and killed my wife -- what's up with that? I'm getting a headache thinking about this plot in reverse. It would be hard to follow linearally...maybe.

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[–] robertgraves14592 10 years ago

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Memento (2000) : Major Plot Hole

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Major Plot Hole
image for user nrkist2424
by nrkist2424 » Sun Jan 11 2015 04:52:52 Flag ▼ | Reply |
IMDb member since July 2011
I love this film. I think it has a ton of depth. It works on many levels and if you wish to pull back the layers of that onion, you'll discover it still works...except for one scene...

Let's start from the premise revealed at the end: Leonard's abbreviated short-term memory is essentially following a bread-crumb trail of lies he leaves himself, to the resolution he 'wants'.

But, he doesn't know what he wants, because he doesn't know how it all began, because he's done everything in his power to obfuscate this, and Teddy has assisted him.

Yet...

In the diner, Natalie asks him what he will do when he finds John G and murders him. Leonard's response is, 'take a picture so I remember, I suppose', or something along those lines.

Leonard would just kill himself at that point, right? He has no reason to exist after he kills John G. It wouldn't even take a moment of thought.

Why would he take a picture to remember when he kills John G? Was Natalie calling *beep* on Lenny? Did Lenny reveal some *beep* After Lenny guns down John G, that gun is going straight in his mouth, right?
Re: Major Plot Hole
image for user mad_weather
by mad_weather » Sun Jan 11 2015 06:44:30 Flag ▼ | Reply |
IMDb member since June 2004
What Leonard wants is an inner peace. While he is consumed by his hunt, he believes that success will bring him closure he desires, not thinking about implications. It's true that once he kills John G, his life becomes meaningless, but as far as it goes, he doesn't realize this. In fact, it *already* happened once - he killed the real John G but soon his drive made him long for hunt once again.

What you describe is not a plot hole but a plot essence, the very dramatic point it revolves around.
Re: Major Plot Hole
image for user nrkist2424
by nrkist2424 » Mon Jan 12 2015 03:59:05 Flag ▼ | Reply |
IMDb member since July 2011
No, it's a Plot Hole and a problem of Character Motivation.

When he kills John G. he immediately kills himself thereafter.

Like, the film is aware of this in the Natalie/Diner scene. I guess it's kinda winky and she's calling Leonard out, but it still doesn't make sense. When he kills John G. he obviously kills himself immediately after...but he tells Natalie that he'll take a picture so he 'remembers'. What?! For what purpose?

That scene makes me laugh so much, and I'm unsure if it's supposed to be an insight into Lenny, or just a poorly written scene revealing a huge plot hole.

It doesn't work on either level.
Re: Major Plot Hole
image for user the-author
by the-author » Mon Jan 12 2015 04:54:59 Flag ▼ | Reply |
IMDb member since September 2004
That is one of the dumbest things about Memento I have heard.
There is absolutely no reason why he would need or want to kill himself.
The picture of dead Teddy/John g is a memento.
How did you not get that?
He knows his memory is crap, so a picture will always show him that he finally killed the real John G.
You got lost on one of the most insightful scenes in the whole film.

Best unknown feature at IMDB.com
http://www.imdb.com/features/video/browse/
Re: Major Plot Hole
image for user mad_weather
by mad_weather » Mon Jan 12 2015 06:10:03 Flag ▼ | Reply |
IMDb member since June 2004
Post Edited: Mon Jan 12 2015 06:10:38
When he kills John G. he immediately kills himself thereafterCorrection: When he kills John G. he *would* have to kill himself if he were you. But he's not, and, in the movie (contrary to your imagination), he doesn't. The fact that you don't get what his Character Motivation is doesn't mean that it's a plothole, it just means you don't get it.
Re: Major Plot Hole
image for user nrkist2424
by nrkist2424 » Mon Jan 12 2015 13:46:27 Flag ▼ | Reply |
IMDb member since July 2011
Well, explain it to me then :).

I was mocking the fact that his character LACKS a motivation.

It's a plot hole.
Re: Major Plot Hole
image for user mad_weather
by mad_weather » Mon Jan 12 2015 21:59:17 Flag ▼ | Reply |
IMDb member since June 2004
I already did, but you ignored it.
Re: Major Plot Hole
image for user nrkist2424
by nrkist2424 » Mon Jan 12 2015 22:05:57 Flag ▼ | Reply |
IMDb member since July 2011
No, you said my reasoning was flawed because that's what 'I would do' in that situation.

I explained why Lenny would immediately kill himself after killing John G. I explained it within the reality of the story, and from a framing stand-point as to the character motivation.

You said, "nuh-uh".

It's a plot hole. It's glaring on several levels.
Re: Major Plot Hole
image for user mad_weather
by mad_weather » Mon Jan 12 2015 23:11:44 Flag ▼ | Reply |
IMDb member since June 2004
Post Edited: Tue Jan 13 2015 00:14:12
Once again:

What Leonard wants is an inner peace. While he is consumed by his hunt, he believes that success will bring him closure he desires, not thinking about implications. It's true that once he kills John G, his life becomes meaningless, but as far as it goes, he doesn't realize this. In fact, it *already* happened once - he killed the real John G but soon his drive made him long for hunt once again.
(to which you said, "nuh-uh" and kept going about committing suicide. Sore topic, eh? )

When he says he will make a photo to remember, he *believes* that it is what he needs to make feel whole again. He's wrong, but he doesn't consciously realize it. When he actually did it for the first time, he somehow reverted to the regular hunt mode soon. From Teddy's exposition we can't know exactly how it happened - did he simply forgot he succeeded already, or actively tampered with evidence to make sure he won't accidentally bump into truth, and what was Teddy/Lenny initiative ratio in that tampering. Similarly, we can't know what will happen after he has Teddy's "John G." photo to remember. You think that he would probably kill himself after that - well you're entitled to your opinion, but it is in no way a settled truth. The very fact that he *does* make that photo tells us that he doesn't consider suicide right now (though he might get depressive some time later, beyond the frame of the movie). There's an opinion (actively promoted by sdckapr) that he would actually *destroy* the picture to allow himself another take at the endless hunt. Which is also not a settled truth, but has its own merits. If we take into account data from the http://www.otnemem.com site (which is sort of official page of the movie), the picture was simply forgot or left in a motel room, and the police has clues pointing at Lenny. Which means that whether he tries to live with his new circumstances or try to hunt again, he will be probably caught sooner or later and placed back into the institution, where the suicide will be no longer an available option any way.
Re: Major Plot Hole
image for user robertgraves14592
by robertgraves14592 » 54 seconds ago (Tue Jan 20 2015 14:50:00) Flag ▼ | Edit ▼ | Reply |
IMDb member since November 2014
There might not even be a John G. Maybe Lenny tried to kill his wife. They say she survived. Plus she's in bed with Lenny looking at his tattoos on his chest -- John G raped and killed my wife -- what's up with that? I'm getting a headache thinking about this plot in reverse. It would be hard to follow linearally...maybe.

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What's This For? And how did I get here?
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What's This For? And how did I get here?

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[–] mad_weather 10 years ago

What's This For? And how did I get here?

 This is a mystery best left unperturbed. Sometimes the cost of enlightenment is too high.

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[–] the-author 10 years ago

Read more, talk less, newbie.

Best unknown feature at IMDB.com
http://www.imdb.com/features/video/browse/

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[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] DanMetsFan 10 years ago

You basically don't know what a plot hole is.

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[–] orangetd88 10 years ago

You know, I have watched this many times, and seem to find something new each time.

As I was browsing the posts while watching this last time, I have this one question about the possible "plot holes"... How, if he has this condition, did he know or does he remember that he has this condition and that he needs to write this stuff down.

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[–] mad_weather 10 years ago

Well, the truth is that patients with this sort of condition actually are aware they have a problem (you can read the FAQ for more detailed explanation). Plus, Lenny's tattoo "Remember Sammy Jankis" gives him a shortcut, awakening a chain of associations that explains his own situation.

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[–] alby130 10 years ago

At first you say Leonard doesn't know what he wants. Then you say that Leonard would just kill himself. I think there is the issue of trust in answering the question. It's entirely possible that he doesn't know what he would do. Haven't you ever been in a situation where you were asked a question and gave a response, probably a response that is something that you would say, but it wasn't fully true or maybe you just need to think about it more? He has no reason to exist but he might not be capable of killing himself. An idea given in the movie is that he would not be satisfied having no reason to exist, to the point where he would lie to himself so he could believe that he still has purpose.

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[–] njiuma 9 years ago

When he kills John G. he immediately kills himself thereafter.

There is nothing in the film to lead one to draw this conclusion.

On the contrary, Leonard will be searching for John G. ad infinitum, because he forgets that he chose who "John G." is and keeps reliving the search-kill process of his wife's killer.

I am convinced further that Leonard indeed killed his own wife, but naturally chooses to kill others who he makes himself believe killed her with mementos as reminders, hence the movie title.

Killing himself would never be part of his motivation.

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