MovieChat Forums > The Cider House Rules (2000) Discussion > The REAL problem with the abortion ' the...

The REAL problem with the abortion ' theme'


Now I'm against abortion EXCEPT IN SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES, a woman becoming pregnant by her father equals a definite possibility of a child with mental deficiencies being born.

So, here's the problem, the film tries to give you an EXTREMELY rare situation, I mean had they just had a pregnant woman in need of an abortion to live, that would be reasonable, but no, the film tries to create a situation so bad, that the audience says, okay, she should get an abortion.

Doctor Larch wasn abortionist who probably had killed hundreds of premature children, healthy children that the mothers just didn't want and by all likelihood gave money to Mr. Larch to perform the abortion.

That's why this film is a liberal piece of sh^t, not because the abortion of the to be retarded child.





Hippies Aren't People

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Y'know I actually read your first two paragraphs and thought you were being pretty reasonable and gave a good opinion.

But after that I just realised you were another right wing jackass.

*I saw in your eyes that you hate the world, I hate it too...*

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So, pro-life individuals like Dorothy Day were just "right wing jackasses", huh?

When love and duty are one, grace is within you

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^ I'm not even going to get into a conversation about Dorothy Day, she was more than right wing you're involving the Catholic Church there and I doubt it would be wise to start a debate involving that.

*I saw in your eyes that you hate the world, I hate it too...*

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Look, liberals are always going to call conservatives fascist pigs and conservatives will always call liberals tree hugging hippies, but, can't we understand what's right in front of our noses? Huh?

I follow the benefit vs negative system and abortions in some cases are beneficial but in most cases they are overused towards overall negative outcomes, it's the character of Mr. Larch that makes this movie liberal garbage straight from hollywood.




Hippies Aren't People

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[deleted]

Calling people names is part of free speech. MaximusXXX can call this movie a liberal piece of crap, and anyone else has the right to say that MaximusXXX is full of it. Nobody is saying that MaximusXXX doesn't have a right to that opinion or to express it, but if someone responds critically or harshly to it, that speech is protected too. You can't tell people to respect everyone's right to free speech and then turn around and tell people not to call each other names and play nice and then expect to be an advocate for the First Amendment because guess what; that sort of mentality hinders free speech. Look at free speech like this: it's like a constant open mic night. You don't have to like what everyone has to say--you don't even have to listen to anyone if you don't want--but everyone gets their chance to have a few words, if they want to, and no one gets to shut them up or not give them a turn. If want to live in a free country where people are free to express whatever they want, be prepared for things to get uncomfortable and messy once in a while.

By the way, wasn't this discussion supposed to relate to The Cider House Rules? It looks like this discussion got way off topic.

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[deleted]

I completely understand what the original post is saying, this movie is VERY liberal. I enjoyed the movie for the acting and the emotional side of the story. But the abortion parts really disgusted me. I am extremely pro-life, I myself have two small beautiful girls and I love deeply. When they were growing inside me my oldest would suck her thumb during the EARLY ultrasounds. My second showed frustration during an early ultrasound when she could not get her foot in her mouth. Whether you want to admit it or not fetus' ARE babies, they are alive and abortion IS murder. Try and justify it all you want, but give no excuses, it is WRONG!

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I think you mean you are anti-choice (that is the opposite of pro-choice). In other words, I gather from your remarks that you feel that abortion is wrong and thus should not be an option (I'm not making a judgement here, just seeking clarification).

Pro-choice means just that - the woman should have access to safe, legal abortion if that is what SHE chooses. It is possible to personally feel that abortion is wrong, yet still be pro-choice.

I'm not sure what pro-life means (or anti-life, for that mattter). Mostly I see the term used to mean anti-abortion or anti-choice.

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Murder is illegal, abortion is not legal so ergo it is not murder

Oh and I agree fetuses are babies, but that doesn't mean I'm going to carry a pregnancy to term if I get pregnant.

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Do your homework and watch an abortion with the new 3d tecnology. Then study the psychological effects on patients as the years go on after this operation. This is why everyone needs to be informed of the consequences like every other drug and procedure. Why hide it?

*The shape-shifter is in and will take your calls now.

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You agree that fetuses are babies, yet you don't consider aborting (terminating) that baby's life to be an act of murder?

"Contempt loves the silence, it thrives in the dark" -Merchant

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um, who posted this rush limbaugh? ...yes the movie gives a VERY extreme circumstance...but did you TOTALLY decide to leave out charlize therons circumstance? which was what the "everyday" woman does...they get pregnant, feels as though theyre not ready and abort all the while being in a loving relationship? This movie did a GREAT job at showing both sides of the coin. Charlize had a choice whereas Erykah Badu needed it as a necessity.

it showed that abortion is not always black/white...no pun intended.

never miss a chance to have sex or appear on television.

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What more could one expect from a person who has an id as Maximus XXX.

Every Movie is not for Everybody

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Please QQ more MaximusXXX, your tears sustain.

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I don't think he's capable of any emotion except hate.

I have come here to chew bubble gum and to kick ass...and I am all out of bubble gum.

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Just wondering... did the possibility that the film is just telling a story enter your mind?
Given your signature and general attitude, I do not assume that you have read a book as long as "The Cider House Rules", but even if you did just watch the film, the fact that you call the film liberal (let's just leave the abusive language aside and assume you are not able to express yourself in a civilised manner) shows that you have somewhat missed the point.

If you are not able to watch a film that portraits controversial issues without showing the same narrow-minded, black-and-white world view as you seem to do, why not just watch action thrillers with the good guy killing the bad guy?
If you want to make a statement about abortion, perhaps consider the possibility that a movie database forum might be the wrong place?

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I called them a right wing jackass because they deserved it.

"...That's why this film is a liberal piece of sh^t, not because the abortion of the to be retarded child..."

You have no idea how offensive that statement was. An opposing reaction from somebody was inevitable. You need to think about who is reading these posts; someone who has endured the physical and emotional strain of having a termination may be reading. Maybe I have, the point i'm trying to make is this is a public area and simply a discussion board about a film, but some posters seem to be using it as a ground for broadcasting their own discriminations and absurd moral judgements.

*I saw in your eyes that you hate the world, I hate it too...*

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[deleted]

Dr. Larch performed abortions so that women would not get crochet needles stuck in them and die.
You can be against abortion all you want, but you're not going to stop it. It's been happening since the beginning of time. It doesn't matter if it's legal or not, it's going to happen. And if it's going to happen, then it should at least be done in a safe, sterile manner.

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Amen. Better sterile, safe abortions than unsafe, behind the curtains ones. Pregnant women who want abortions are going to get them, whether they're legal and safe or not.

OP-
You would probably respond that women who want abortions deserve the consequences of having unsafe abortions, and you would be wrong. You haven't been in the shoes of a woman for whom choice is not a choice. And don't you dare tell me that you have, because if you had been in a situation in which it was abortion or the destruction of your own life, and fully formed life, you would have gotten an abortion too.

And guess what? If our mothers had aborted us we wouldn't be here to whine about it, and no one would have known about the possibility of what our lives would become, so it really wouldn't matter. If my mother had aborted me, I wouldn't be here. And that doesn't suck, because I just wouldn't have existed, and wouldn't have known it another way.

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Very wise post. My Mom told me how many women have died from illegal abortions. Pro life people are not pro life, they are pro pregnancy. As soon as that baby pops out, their work is done. Being mostly from the right they continually whine about taxes, welfare moms, street crime and drugs. Most of these fetuses are going to grow up as an unwanted child, single parent family and two strikes against them. When abortion is illegal, rich families send their precious young daughters out of the country to have one, while poor unwed mothers die. And why do old white men get to say whats right for a woman?

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As a liberal (and this may sound unusual) I kind of agree with you. This film doesn't want to portray abortion in a realistic way but tries to sugarcoat pro-choice arguments in favor of abortion. The situation presented in the film simply isn't believable and doesn't add anything to any discussion regarding abortion.

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Sugarcoated ? seriously ? SUGARCOATED?
This movie is about hard choices . Hard choices .
This movie is about deciding to have a child you can't keep and give it up.
About deciding to kill the baby before its born to save everyone the pain and shame associated with an unwed pregnancy at that time .
About the pain of women who tried to do it themselves or got someone to do it that said they knew what they were doing only to have the women die or be made sterile .
This movie never says " hey isn't it better to just have an abortion ?" .
It is about choices , about a boy / man that sees his own life in the lives of those unwanted fetuses and can not just end pregnancies without thought . Even after the death of the 12 year old girl , his mind is not changed . Homer makes a choice , He says no to his mentor , his father really , about abortion . It is when the life of two people that he loves ( and he does love them , that is evident ) are affected that he sees that there is times when you can't always stand on principles .
Life is not black and white , and yes , ok this movie is more liberal than not liberal .
the point is the rules are made by those who are never effected by those rules .
the ciderhouse rules were written by the people that never lived in the smell of vinegar . That is the point. Don't tell me that you understand that abortions are only acceptable in the most " extreme" circumstances because every circumstance that threatens your way of life is extreme to you . if you were ever 12 or 14 or 16 and poor and afraid and pregnant and you chose to have your child then , I will sit and listen to you . Otherwise , if you don't own and operate a uterus, why do you get to tell me what I with mine .

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That was the exact problem that I had with the logical approach of the film.
They wanted to show how Homer would let go of his values, becoming a professional abortionist, after the extremely rare situation of Rose.
Let's change the scenario and have Homer decide to become a pro-hitman after he is given the option of killing a pedophile. It just doesn't make sense.
Attempting to rationalize such a topic like life-and-death based on such rare scenarios is utterly irrational

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Is abortion legal in the United States?

A Prayer for the Wild at Hearts Kept in Cages

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yes

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But it was not back when this movie was set. That is why women resorted to dangerous self-induced procedures or so called "back alley" practitioners, (recall the scene in the movie where the young girl died from this). Dr. Larch's primary business was to deliver babies that were unwanted and then care for children at the orphanage. He got into the abortion "business" as a result of women coming ang begging him for safe help. And he was not profiting from it. The home was a non-profit organization run by a board of trustees - People did not pay for services.
Dr. Larch was not a necessarily a proponent of abortion (in fact, he talks about repecting a woman's decision to have her baby), but his years of experience led him to feel he could not stop women from having abortions so he wanted them to have a safe alternative

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But where in the movie does it suggest that Wilbur is ANTI-choice, on the abortion issue - or WAS before that girl got pregnant? Would Wilbur have 'killed' a pedophile? Well, he could have taken some sort of violent action against the man who got his daughter pregnant, but didn't do so. That suggests that he doesn't have any violent impulses, at least none beyond the 'normal' range.

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But where in the movie does it suggest that Wilbur is ANTI-choice, on the abortion issue - or WAS before that girl got pregnant? Would Wilbur have 'killed' a pedophile? Well, he could have taken some sort of violent action against the man who got his daughter pregnant, but didn't do so. That suggests that he doesn't have any violent impulses, at least none beyond the 'normal' range.

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MaximusXXX while I agree with your view on abortion, it is neither your place or my place to push our beliefs onto others. Is abortion as birth control wrong? Of course it is, but unless your willing to care for every pregnant and unwanted child in the world you shouldn't be against abortions. As for the movie being ultra liberal, it is, but I think that has a lot to do with having to push so much material into two hours.

In the film we never find out why Larch is so pro-choice, but in the book the one abortion he doesn't give haunts him til death. Before he went to college his father bought him a prostitute in which he used and when he was finished he realized that the prostitute's daughter was watching the whole thing. Years later a woman, which he recognizes as the daughter, comes to him for an abortion which he denies. She goes elsewhere and then shows up again, but this time she's all but dead and has a note tacked on to her, pretty much blaming Larch for not doing the procedure. After this Larch decides that he will give the woman whatever she wants, whether it be God's work (delivery) or the Devil's work (abortion) becuase it's all God's work to him. All of this is crammed into one scene, when the woman dies from her botched abortion from another doctor, so it's obviously not as powerful. Also, in the book Larch would not charge money, but would recommend a donation to the orphanage if they could afford it.

In the book Homer never knew Larch's backstory (just as we didn't in the film) and is against abortion, even though he thinks it should be legalized. In the film we see Homer make several trips in the incinerator but they leave out the most significant one. In the book Homer is making one such trip when a fetus falls to the ground. When Homer sees the facial expression he realizes that the fetur has a "soul" and decides then and there he will never give an abortion or help Larch with one. It take's Rose Rose's incest pregnancy for Homer to finally go through with the procedure which goes against his fundamental beliefs. It is also his belief that if "you are to play God, you can't play God a little," so from that point on he vows to give a woman whatever procedure she wants until abortions are legalized and they can go safely elsewhere.

The book does a much better job with the abortion theme, but Irving obviously had a lot more time, where as the film had to try to jam it down our throats. Homer has the same beliefs as you do MaximusXXX, but he is strong enough to put aside his beliefs in order to "be of use."


Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude

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I agree with the OP. The movie was very touching in parts, but the central theme was defintely pro-abortion. In the book, from what I remember-it was written almost 25 years ago- Homer was more strongly pro-life than he was in the movie. In fact, he and Kandy had a baby together, and that was not mentioned in the movie. Also-at the end of the movie-it was very unclear whether Homer was going to become a full-fledged abortionist like Wilbur had been-or was he only going to perform them in rare extreme circumstances, such in the incest case the movie depicted?

Dini

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No, the movie was pro-CHOICE. Dr. Larch respected the woman's decision to have her baby and provided safe delivery and even care for the child. He also respected the woman's choice to have an abortion and provided that procedure safely as well.
Pro-choice is NOT synonymous with pro-abortion (who goes around PROMOTING abortion??), nor is anti-choice synonymous with pro-life.

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